756 replies to this topic

[FireFox]

The Pein arc is when it happened then. While I could swallow mass rez Nagato did. In that scene we also had some great lines from Nagato about horrors of war. And Naruto promising he'll find another way . Which was BS since he never had any answer. Beside: It's because I say so! Now when I look back on manga, for me the breaking point is Naruto getting willingly beaten up for Sasuke. Naruto begging A. Naruto having panic attack. That beating scene is where imo manga shifted towards a whole new version of Naruto. As others have said the Pein arc seamed like a good place to end the manga with few alterations. From there on we no longer had Naruto manga. But Sasuke manga. Which in the and was changed to Hinata manga!

You know many times I've said that Gintama is the best manga/anime there is and that it totally ridicules everything that Naruto as a story stands for on so many ways especially with the ending.

 

Here I'm gonna pull a quote of Hijikata from the end of the Yagyu arc that totally ridicules Naruto's over glorified unhealthy unrealistic obsession with Sasuke .

 

Hijikata: You're not Buddha! You think you can bring salvation to everyone you meet? There are people you can save and others you can't save no matter how hard you try. Is the way you live your life so fragile that you'd break just because of that?    

Another question is how?

 

It's like in those movies where thief robs something thinking it's filled with cash, only to find porn when its opened!

You ask to many questions Kishi doesn't like that  .

 

 Or a ticking bomb  .

 

I just can't get over people saying "we need to listen to kishimoto's intent." When the idiot retcons his "intent" every damn interview. If kishimoto were a fictional character we'd call him an unreliable narrator.

You know that's the smell of fear of their logic being thrown out into the trashcan where Naruto belongs  . Its so hard not to when everything that idiot says is just so ridiculous and right in our face  . 

 

P.S. I was thinking of changing my name into Analyzer and Fact Check you all  .  

Edited by FireFox, 11 December 2017 - 03:45 PM.

[DrK]

I just can't get over people saying "we need to listen to kishimoto's intent." When the idiot retcons his "intent" every damn interview. If kishimoto were a fictional character we'd call him an unreliable narrator.

Well, I am listening to his intent. There is no other possible intent that he could have had with many of these scenes. For instance, the bridge scene. If the intention was for Sakura to end up with Sasuke, he would not have written it that way. See, he did such a good job developing this pairing that it is now his undoing. He went out of his way to make powerful scenes and to make them clearly romantic. The only reasonable conclusion is that his intent changed.

 

I mean, think about it. The only pairing that has a substantial amount of development is the one that didn't happen. The one with the second most development which is SK, also didn't happen. Anyone can see this even without looking closely at the scenes. You don't have to be a genius to figure out that he didn't plan it to end this way.

Edited by DrK, 11 December 2017 - 04:08 PM.

[milan kyuubi]

As other have said as well. One of the things that angers me the most are the retcons that have been made to make NH/SS (and they are even worse if thats possible) happen. Th characters core personality/story lines/plots had to be ruined all just because of Hinata.

 

You know many times I've said that Gintama is the best manga/anime there is and that it totally ridicules everything that Naruto as a story stands for on so many ways especially with the ending.

 

Here I'm gonna pull a quote of Hijikata from the end of the Yagyu arc that totally ridicules Naruto's over glorified unhealthy unrealistic obsession with Sasuke .

 

Hijikata: You're not Buddha! You think you can bring salvation to everyone you meet? There are people you can save and others you can't save no matter how hard you try. Is the way you live your life so fragile that you'd break just because of that?    

 

You ask to many questions Kishi doesn't like that  .

 

 Or a ticking bomb  .

 

You just said that to me in the other thread!

 

He has answers! But they are all contradict themselves!

 

Like in Jingle All The Way!

[RulesofNature]

You know many times I've said that Gintama is the best manga/anime there is and that it totally ridicules everything that Naruto as a story stands for on so many ways especially with the ending.

 

Here I'm gonna pull a quote of Hijikata from the end of the Yagyu arc that totally ridicules Naruto's over glorified unhealthy unrealistic obsession with Sasuke .

 

Hijikata: You're not Buddha! You think you can bring salvation to everyone you meet? There are people you can save and others you can't save no matter how hard you try. Is the way you live your life so fragile that you'd break just because of that?    

You ask to many questions Kishi doesn't like that  .

 

Or you have how MHA tells the audience that talk no jutsu isn't magically going to fix a person's emotional baggage.

 

It's what I've said before, Naruto (as a series) ended up being idealism untempered by maturity. Forgiveness and not giving in to hatred are good messages, but the way they were executed came off as not holding people accountable to their actions was part of that. It's just like how Hinata's love of Naruto has always been treated as cute and innocent while her actions in The Last ultimately made her out to be an uncaring sister. The fact that SP has been scrambling to try and fix the problems with their Next Gen appearances just highlights how out of touch the writing was with it's audience.

[DrK]

It's what I've said before, Naruto (as a series) ended up being idealism untempered by maturity. Forgiveness and not giving in to hatred are good messages, but the way they were executed came off as not holding people accountable to their actions was part of that.

You have to draw the line somewhere. Like did they kill your parents and ruin your life? That has to be deemed uncool.

 

I mean, it's incredibly selfish anyways. Imagine if Obito had survived and Kakashi and Naruto of course want to just let him go back to being some Konoha citizen. But the war surely killed thousands and lots of families are mourning. But Kakashi and Naruto will just let Obito walk around. Kishimoto never bothered to consider this subject. Like how the other four ninja villages would never have let them pardon Sasuke. He would have been put to death. I told this to Analyzer, but they said "Just because A wanted to kill Sasuke doesn't mean you can just assume that A would insist on killing Sasuke. You are not the Author."

 

The idea of forgiveness is also screwed up. Lots of people forgive someone who hurt or killed someone they care about. But they do this so that they can move on with their lives. It doesn't mean that no punishment is needed or desired. Naruto, Sakura and others should have continued to love Sasuke for being their friend, but he should have had his eyes removed and Naruto and Sakura should not have tried to interfere because Sasuke hurt other people and it's not their place to say he should be pardoned because he's good now.

 

Terrible version of morality.

Edited by DrK, 11 December 2017 - 05:25 PM.

[FireFox]

You just said that to me in the other thread!

 

He has answers! But they are all contradict themselves!

 

Like in Jingle All The Way!

And I'll keep doing it until you start watching it  .

 

You just have to look the underneath the underneath the underneath the underneath  the underneath to understand how his brilliant mind works you're just salty you don't understand anything  .

 

WTF!!!  . 

 

Or you have how MHA tells the audience that talk no jutsu isn't magically going to fix a person's emotional baggage.

 

It's what I've said before, Naruto (as a series) ended up being idealism untempered by maturity. Forgiveness and not giving in to hatred are good messages, but the way they were executed came off as not holding people accountable to their actions was part of that. It's just like how Hinata's love of Naruto has always been treated as cute and innocent while her actions in The Last ultimately made her out to be an uncaring sister. The fact that SP has been scrambling to try and fix the problems with their Next Gen appearances just highlights how out of touch the writing was with it's audience.

That's exactly right on point there's just so much that the audience can take such crap and no matter how much they may try to fix it such atrocity is unfixable they can only make it even worse like they do it now with Burito I presume. Hinata is blown out of proportion for her actions which anyone with basic reading comprehension would see that even if her cause was "noble" to "protect" Naruto,  her selfishness will only cause more damage and pain to the people around her and from a romance pov its just doesn't work bc it makes her a satellite character  with no growth whatsoever . 

[RulesofNature]

And I'll keep doing it until you start watching it  .

 

You just have to look the underneath the underneath the underneath the underneath  the underneath to understand how his brilliant mind works you're just salty you don't understand anything  .

 

WTF!!!  . 

That's exactly right on point there's just so much that the audience can take such crap and no matter how much they may try to fix it such atrocity is unfixable they can only make it even worse like they do it now with Burito I presume. Hinata is blown out of proportion for her actions which anyone with basic reading comprehension would see that even if her cause was "noble" to "protect" Naruto,  her selfishness will only cause more damage and pain to the people around her and from a romance pov its just doesn't work bc it makes her a satellite character  with no growth whatsoever . 

 

What's worse is Kishi has made it sound like Hinata was being rewarded for her behavior. Let's review here, shall we?

 

1) The Chunin exams where Hinata offers to let Naruto cheat. When you have to remember that if you got caught cheating your team was thrown out, Hinata would be putting the entirety of Team 7 in danger. And she knew about this rule.

 

2) The fight with Pein when she ignores Naruto's wishes and rushes into battle. Kishi in the past has called this suicidal, and then there's the bigger problem. If Minato hadn't made preparations in case the seal would break, Hinata would have been responsible for Kurama being released. Considering Kurama was still very angry at this point, the casualties would have skyrocketed.

 

3) Hinata saying she's not going to chase after Naruto anymore... then continues to pine for him two years after he never responded to her confessions. Oh right, it would make her look shallow if she gave up on him at this point like the implications of that aren't a loaded gun. And this was after Neji was killed so Kishi could give them a moment.

 

4) On a mission to save her sister, she's more concerned about knitting Naruto a scarf and is upset that he already has one (made by his deceased mother no less).

 

5) Leaving her children behind to "go help Naruto" only to be instantly KO'ed.

 

6) She understands Boruto has issues with Naruto, but does not want to trouble Naruto with them. She even pulls "your father had a hard life" on her son to try and guilt him.

[DrK]

2) The fight with Pein when she ignores Naruto's wishes and rushes into battle. Kishi in the past has called this suicidal, and then there's the bigger problem. If Minato hadn't made preparations in case the seal would break, Hinata would have been responsible for Kurama being released. Considering Kurama was still very angry at this point, the casualties would have skyrocketed.

Given that Jiraiya was dead, and they probably wouldn't be able to find anyone with suitable genetics to host it, the Akatsuki would actually be saving the world. Because if they don't put Kurama in the statue, he just kills everyone instead. Everyone would have willingly gone along with the Eye of the Moon Plan just because it's better than getting destroyed. I guess they could seal it inside of Karin, but no one would know about her or where she is. So Hinata would have made the bad guys into the good guys.

[RulesofNature]

Given that Jiraiya was dead, and they probably wouldn't be able to find anyone with suitable genetics to host it, the Akatsuki would actually be saving the world. Because if they don't put Kurama in the statue, he just kills everyone instead. Everyone would have willingly gone along with the Eye of the Moon Plan just because it's better than getting destroyed. I guess they could seal it inside of Karin, but no one would know about her or where she is. So Hinata would have made the bad guys into the good guys.

 

...Wait, wouldn't Tsunade be able to hold him? I mean, her grandmother was an Uzumaki after all.

[DrK]

 

...Wait, wouldn't Tsunade be able to hold him? I mean, her grandmother was an Uzumaki after all.

Uh maybe, but she was unconscious at the time and Kurama would probably make sure everyone in Konoha was dead before moving on, for obvious reasons. I think her survival is unlikely.

[milan kyuubi]

And I'll keep doing it until you start watching it  .

 

You just have to look the underneath the underneath the underneath the underneath  the underneath to understand how his brilliant mind works you're just salty you don't understand anything  .

 

WTF!!!  . 

That's exactly right on point there's just so much that the audience can take such crap and no matter how much they may try to fix it such atrocity is unfixable they can only make it even worse like they do it now with Burito I presume. Hinata is blown out of proportion for her actions which anyone with basic reading comprehension would see that even if her cause was "noble" to "protect" Naruto,  her selfishness will only cause more damage and pain to the people around her and from a romance pov its just doesn't work bc it makes her a satellite character  with no growth whatsoever . 

 

 

I would have better chances breaking trough wall with paper towel then that!

 

If you haven't seen the movie. I highly suggest you watch it. Especially now during new year/Christmas!

 

Here is something that I don't get. How did Hinata get so many fans, including inside SP?  I am not going to say that she wouldn't have fans. Far from it. To each their own. But on this lvl?  I watched many other anime and read mangas (including tv shows and movies). And I never seen this before. Maybe I didn't watch enough anime to see it tho. But still. Hinata is bland char. And yeah I know many wail say boobs as reason! And that is true in some cases. Or minority were the loudest. Which is also true to some extant. 

But I am still scratching my head on Sp/SJ etc banking everything on Hinata. Anyway I don't even make sense of what I said. Damn you Kishi!

[DrK]

Here is something that I don't get. How did Hinata get so many fans, including inside SP? 

Because she likes Naruto, and due to Kishi's ridiculous choices, Sakura looked much worse than she needed to. If Hinata didn't like Naruto, or if Hinata was the actual love interest, she would have been so much less popular. Kishi created a uniquely horrible situation for himself.

[milan kyuubi]

Because she likes Naruto, and due to Kishi's ridiculous choices, Sakura looked much worse than she needed to. If Hinata didn't like Naruto, or if Hinata was the actual love interest, she would have been so much less popular. Kishi created a uniquely horrible situation for himself.

 

Thats just sad. But I still can't wrap my head around it. It's not like Hinata was already developed established char. She was nothing. Her only screen time was to say naruto kun. just ugh.....

[RulesofNature]

 

Thats just sad. But I still can't wrap my head around it. It's not like Hinata was already developed established char. She was nothing. Her only screen time was to say naruto kun. just ugh.....

 

Okay, Here we go.

 

The thing about the series is that the series wants the audience to sympathize with Naruto from the beginning. He has no family or friends, so Hinata appreciating him from the beginning already makes her look good in the eyes of people who don't read heavily into things. This is in strict contrast to Sakura, who holds a low opinion of the lead character and hits him on occasion.  Plus Hinata is set up as an underdog in her own right with possible growth established before Sakura's, making her more sympathetic.

 

Not to mention how things are presented in the manga vs the anime. Sometimes, especially when filler is involved, studios will rewrite scenes and characters to pad things out or due to their own preference. Ranma Saotome, for instance, is a vastly different character in the anime compared to the source material. The anime can play a major role in altering the fandom's perception of a work, similar to how early Ranma fanfics established fanon that is still used to this day.

 

And finally, violent love interests are usually seen in a more negative light when the audience identifies more with the one being hit. It stops being slapstick and becomes abuse in their eyes (especially when they self-insert). There's been backlash to this sort of thing, with shows like Love Hina being vilified by more modern audiences despite being popular back in the day.

 

In short, people aren't as willing to let Sakura's early shortcomings go as they are with Naruto's. She had the deck stacked against her from the beginning, and people's low opinion of her early on continued to haunt her until the end (just like how people make Sasuke look worse pre-timeskip in fanfics) She is a flawed character, but her main competition is someone who is played in a very sympathetic light and whose behavior is not treated as a problem. The anime made this worse, and as Naruto's popularity declined in the West Hinata's fans stayed adamant. Not to mention vocal as hell.

Edited by RulesofNature, 11 December 2017 - 08:02 PM.

[milan kyuubi]

 

Okay, Here we go.

 

The thing about the series is that the series wants the audience to sympathize with Naruto from the beginning. He has no family or friends, so Hinata appreciating him from the beginning already makes her look good in the eyes of people who don't read heavily into things. This is in strict contrast to Sakura, who holds a low opinion of the lead character and hits him on occasion.  Plus Hinata is set up as an underdog in her own right with possible growth established before Sakura's, making her more sympathetic.

 

Not to mention how things are presented in the manga vs the anime. Sometimes, especially when filler is involved, studios will rewrite scenes and characters to pad things out or due to their own preference. Ranma Saotome, for instance, is a vastly different character in the anime compared to the source material. The anime can play a major role in altering the fandom's perception of a work, similar to how early Ranma fanfics established fanon that is still used to this day.

 

And finally, violent love interests are usually seen in a more negative light when the audience identifies more with the one being hit. It stops being slapstick and becomes abuse in their eyes (especially when they self-insert). There's been backlash to this sort of thing, with shows like Love Hina being vilified by more modern audiences despite being popular back in the day.

 

In short, people aren't as willing to let Sakura's early shortcomings go as they are with Naruto's. She had the deck stacked against her from the beginning, and people's low opinion of her early on continued to haunt her until the end (just like how people make Sasuke look worse pre-timeskip in fanfics) She is a flawed character, but her main competition is someone who is played in a very sympathetic light and whose behavior is not treated as a problem. The anime made this worse, and as Naruto's popularity declined in the West Hinata's fans stayed adamant. Not to mention vocal as hell.

 

Tnx for explaining! It all comes down to what I already know. Hinata fans don't give a damn about Naruto and the manga in general as long as Hinata gets what she wants. Tho even some of those fans have taken it upon themselves to rewrite ending with fanfics etc while calling us salty for daring to cal BS on what happened with manga! 

[RulesofNature]

 

Tnx for explaining! It all comes down to what I already know. Hinata fans don't give a damn about Naruto and the manga in general as long as Hinata gets what she wants. Tho even some of those fans have taken it upon themselves to rewrite ending with fanfics etc while calling us salty for daring to cal BS on what happened with manga! 

 

One of the big things, at least I find, is that when it comes to anime fans they view shows in a very self-indulgent way. If the show isn't appealing to them, they don't care what it has to say. Not to mention when a show does things they don't like, it's all "OMG THE WRITING WENT TO kitten!"

 

I'm a Gundam fan and it happened hard earlier this year with Iron Blooded Orphans, going from the greatest Gundam ever according to it's fans to raging against the ending while they ignored every negative aspect of the protagonists (plays a huge role in the ending). Not to mention they guys butthurt at Tomino because he said he didn't make Reconguista in G for them.

Edited by RulesofNature, 11 December 2017 - 09:29 PM.

[Gravenimage]

 

Okay, Here we go.

 

The thing about the series is that the series wants the audience to sympathize with Naruto from the beginning. He has no family or friends, so Hinata appreciating him from the beginning already makes her look good in the eyes of people who don't read heavily into things. This is in strict contrast to Sakura, who holds a low opinion of the lead character and hits him on occasion.  Plus Hinata is set up as an underdog in her own right with possible growth established before Sakura's, making her more sympathetic.

 

Not to mention how things are presented in the manga vs the anime. Sometimes, especially when filler is involved, studios will rewrite scenes and characters to pad things out or due to their own preference. Ranma Saotome, for instance, is a vastly different character in the anime compared to the source material. The anime can play a major role in altering the fandom's perception of a work, similar to how early Ranma fanfics established fanon that is still used to this day.

 

And finally, violent love interests are usually seen in a more negative light when the audience identifies more with the one being hit. It stops being slapstick and becomes abuse in their eyes (especially when they self-insert). There's been backlash to this sort of thing, with shows like Love Hina being vilified by more modern audiences despite being popular back in the day.

 

In short, people aren't as willing to let Sakura's early shortcomings go as they are with Naruto's. She had the deck stacked against her from the beginning, and people's low opinion of her early on continued to haunt her until the end (just like how people make Sasuke look worse pre-timeskip in fanfics) She is a flawed character, but her main competition is someone who is played in a very sympathetic light and whose behavior is not treated as a problem. The anime made this worse, and as Naruto's popularity declined in the West Hinata's fans stayed adamant. Not to mention vocal as hell.

 

Man you hit the nail on the head. I'm still asking how this story changed from being about Naruto, his struggles in life and about his dream to being all about Hinata?  

Edited by Gravenimage, 11 December 2017 - 10:25 PM.

[FireFox]

 

What's worse is Kishi has made it sound like Hinata was being rewarded for her behavior. Let's review here, shall we?

 

1) The Chunin exams where Hinata offers to let Naruto cheat. When you have to remember that if you got caught cheating your team was thrown out, Hinata would be putting the entirety of Team 7 in danger. And she knew about this rule.

 

2) The fight with Pein when she ignores Naruto's wishes and rushes into battle. Kishi in the past has called this suicidal, and then there's the bigger problem. If Minato hadn't made preparations in case the seal would break, Hinata would have been responsible for Kurama being released. Considering Kurama was still very angry at this point, the casualties would have skyrocketed.

 

3) Hinata saying she's not going to chase after Naruto anymore... then continues to pine for him two years after he never responded to her confessions. Oh right, it would make her look shallow if she gave up on him at this point like the implications of that aren't a loaded gun. And this was after Neji was killed so Kishi could give them a moment.

 

4) On a mission to save her sister, she's more concerned about knitting Naruto a scarf and is upset that he already has one (made by his deceased mother no less).

 

5) Leaving her children behind to "go help Naruto" only to be instantly KO'ed.

 

6) She understands Boruto has issues with Naruto, but does not want to trouble Naruto with them. She even pulls "your father had a hard life" on her son to try and guilt him.

2.) Not to mention Naruto would also have died so she just basically accomplishes nothing but only causing more pain and destruction. 

 

3&4.) Neji dying for the purpose being Hinata's cupid is probably the most disgusting thing/writing I've ever witnessed in series, basically the whole purpose of his character was playing Cupid for Hinata everything else about his character was just rendered useless. With her sister its again the same UTTERLY DISGUSTING!!!.

 

Here's the thing with Hinata's character and her love for Naruto, as written and illustrated it falls under the category of an idolized love its an obsession, in cases like this you usually make the character grow out of it and find its own strength and purpose eventually you don't reward it like Hinata bc well basically she's an satellite character we get this kind of ending nothing more nothing less.    

 

 

I would have better chances breaking trough wall with paper towel then that!

 

If you haven't seen the movie. I highly suggest you watch it. Especially now during new year/Christmas!

 You just hurt Kishi's kokoro how dare you!!?   . 

 

I've seen it a long long time ago XD. Here every year for Christmas on TV they play Home alone 1/2 and Zikina Dinastija all parts we can't have Christmas without Zika  .

Here is something that I don't get. How did Hinata get so many fans, including inside SP?  I am not going to say that she wouldn't have fans. Far from it. To each their own. But on this lvl?  I watched many other anime and read mangas (including tv shows and movies). And I never seen this before. Maybe I didn't watch enough anime to see it tho. But still. Hinata is bland char. And yeah I know many wail say boobs as reason! And that is true in some cases. Or minority were the loudest. Which is also true to some extant. 

But I am still scratching my head on Sp/SJ etc banking everything on Hinata. Anyway I don't even make sense of what I said. Damn you Kishi!

There are only few things you need to understand :  Shy, Cute, Big Boobies, Perfect Waifu basically she's the Yamato Nadeshiko of the Naruto Series, the "personification of an idealized Japanese woman", or "the epitome of pure, feminine beauty"  this is how her fans perceive her they don't really care how its written they only focus on this aspects of her as long as she gets what she wants its perfectly fine.   

Edited by FireFox, 11 December 2017 - 10:37 PM.

[DrK]

The remaining scenes that I am going to do are the POAL, bench scene, the fail confession and meeting Minato. Are there any others that I definitely should do?

 

I will analyze some other things as well, but in an overarching context rather than looking at a specific scene. Such as the two-faced portrayals of Sakura and Sasuke that the ending created.

[milan kyuubi]

3&4.) Neji dying for the purpose being Hinata's cupid is probably the most disgusting thing/writing I've ever witnessed in series, basically the whole purpose of his character was playing Cupid for Hinata everything else about his character was just rendered useless. With her sister its again the same UTTERLY DISGUSTING!!!.

 You just hurt Kishi's kokoro how dare you!!?   . 

 

I've seen it a long long time ago XD. Here every year for Christmas on TV they play Home alone 1/2 and Zikina Dinastija all parts we can't have Christmas without Zika  .

 

There are only few things you need to understand :  Shy, Cute, Big Boobies, Perfect Waifu basically she's the Yamato Nadeshiko of the Naruto Series, the "personification of an idealized Japanese woman", or "the epitome of pure, feminine beauty"  this is how her fans perceive her they don't really care how its written they only focus on this aspects of her as long as she gets what she wants its perfectly fine.   

 

This! So much this! Neji was still a slave to the end. In this case a cupid slave *vomits* And I didn't watch TL. But Hinata being jealous of the scarf his dead mother left him (I don't care she didn't know this fact. She should be thinking about her sister). And knitting her own damn scarf. While not caring that HER SISTER is getting her eyes gouged up! Utterly disgusting character!  Fuk even Sasuke was better then this, and thats saying something!

 

I am sure Sasuke will be able to make a transplant! Or Kakashi!

 

HA 2 was just yesterday on tv! True! They should add more Pantic from Tesna Koza! XD

 

Yeah, basically what they think is a perfect wife material. A soulless doormat that will obey everything they wish for!

 

The remaining scenes that I am going to do are the POAL, bench scene, the fail confession and meeting Minato. Are there any others that I definitely should do?

 

I will analyze some other things as well, but in an overarching context rather than looking at a specific scene. Such as the two-faced portrayals of Sakura and Sasuke that the ending created.

 

Did you already did the scene where Sakura feeds Naruto, where Naruto says he''ll definitely save Sakura in Gaara fight (in anime "her" was changed to "all") and Sasuke telling Sakura it was Naruto who risked death it self to save her?

Edited by milan kyuubi, 12 December 2017 - 01:54 PM.