549 replies to this topic

[TouKen4Life3g]

@ BlackBird19
Since Naruto aimed for children, so quality won't matter as long it cool.  Its still attractive for children and adult shipper (NH, SS & SNS), I understand that some of NS still angry for total uproot every NS foundation, but just like other East Asian powerful people in past he just eliminate future trouble until the root.

Yes, but you can win both. I guess Naruto just want to win the selfish crowd. Eh.

[BlackBird19]

@James

​This kid doesn't bother me. If anything I find his way of rationalizing everything pretty astonishing, and very vindicating for those like myself who used basic reading comprehension to come to their point of view and have no need to bend facts to rationalize my stance.

 

@ db84x

That was the biggest excuse I've ever seen someone give to try to prove their point. Kishi is not the head of some ancient family or a company that's having trouble with it's workers. He is an author trying to gain a wider audience not a smaller less troublesome one. And that's their problem, they're not gaining an audience anymore. They just have the fans left from that original wide audience. Why? Because Naruto is not and will not be as highly recommended as a good manga to start reading any longer.  Also, Naruto isn't aimed at children, it's aimed at teens. Doraemon is aimed at children.

[Yyubie]

@James

​This kid doesn't bother me. If anything I find his way of rationalizing everything pretty astonishing, and very vindicating for those like myself who used basic reading comprehension to come to their point of view and have no need to bend facts to rationalize my stance.

 

@ db84x

That was the biggest excuse I've ever seen someone give to try to prove their point. Kishi is not the head of some ancient family or a company that's having trouble with it's workers. He is an author trying to gain a wider audience not a smaller less troublesome one. And that's their problem, they're not gaining an audience anymore. They just have the fans left from that original wide audience. Why? Because Naruto is not and will not be as highly recommended as a good manga to start reading any longer.  Also, Naruto isn't aimed at children, it's aimed at teens. Doraemon is aimed at children.

Not even God, Pries, or Death itself can change his mind, i really like to see how you and anyone else who keep feeds this NH troll die trying to deal with him

Honestly i'm tired telling people to stop feeding him, but this time i'm going to encourage people to feeds him, come on guys let the flame and chaos begin

[VanitasDS76491]

Well, in general, Sasuke wasn't completely without good points. The problem was that his plan to change things was the flawed and insane part. He was basically going to pull a Lelouch-style move where he would make the entire world hate him, forcing them to remain united in the faced of a common "foe" ala Obito/Kabuto/Madara/Kaguya, then he would slip away to allow peace to continue and then when that peace looked like it was going to end, he would re-appear and cause more trouble to keep them united and just keep rinsing and repeating. Sasuke clearly didn't think the "true" peace that Naruto wanted was possible (and, let's face it, as long as humanity has free will and individualism, chances are there never will be such a thing, at least not for long, hence why Madara's Moon's Eye Plan, while wrong, was at least understandable) and so was settling for a false peace.

The other problem, one that Naruto also had, is that neither he nor Naruto, despite all of their power, are immortal. They will die eventually whether it be in battle (irony) or simply old age (even the Rikudo Sennin with the Jubi and the Rinnegan wasn't immortal) and then who will be around to maintain the peace? I mean, they can't exactly guarantee any successor(s) will carry on their will to the letter or even pervert their ideals in order to take power for themselves or something. And when one thinks about it like that, wouldn't either side simply be a false peace in the long run in that, with Naruto, most people simply would "endure" the peace because they're just too afraid to speak against him because of his power?

To be fair I think Lelouch plan things out way better and accepted his  fate at the end of the series.

[VanitasDS76491]

How many other characters are the same and yet the writer/author sticks to their guns? No matter the pressure. No matter the time. This is what Oda said. While he also gets pressured by fans to do something, he tells then "This is my story and while I appreciate your love for my series...I have to do it my way." Whether he makes it work or not, that is what I have to respect.

But here is the thing. All the bull that people keep screaming of "respecting the authors decisions" or "It is HIS story, not yours," you just proved to me that these words are meaningless and are the only excuses for the pro-enders to have. They won;t admit that THEY pressured this all to happen. The Sakura hate is massive or even worse despite Kishimoto giving them EXACTLY WHAT THEY WANTED apparently. "We want Sakura to get with Sasuke." Which happened, but even this hasn't changed the fans outlook of her. In fact, I would dare say that making NS canon would have been a far better outcome for her and actually got rid of some of the anti-Sakura haters. Maybe not all of them, but changing even just a quarter of them would have been better than increasing the number of haters ten fold.

You can't change everyone, but an improvement is an improvement. Instead, Kishimoto made everyone take ten steps back and that is what has happened to the Naruto series. You missed that very important detail. The hate for ALL the characters has increased, not decreased despite Kishimoto giving them exactly what they wanted. Just think about that for a second. Anti-Naruto, Anti-Sasuke, Anti-Sakura, and Anti-Hinata....anti-everything has increased ten fold since the Naruto the Last movie has been released. 

"Who knew there were so many Manderin fans out there? And somehow you manged to tick ALL of them off."
-Superman comments to Iron Man 3. (justsomerandomguy)
 

The love for the series of Naruto is not growing, it's decreasing. The hate is increasing. Day by day the hate is increasing and the only ones who still buy into the stuff are the fans who are so radical and in such denial in their views they make up the story with their own little world. Most, if not all, didn't even see. watch, or pay attention to anything beyond Chapter 700. (Hell, I even saw posts of people so delusional they tried to convince me that Naruto confusing Hinata's love for him as the same as his love for ramen as a compliment than an insult.)

NH may be popular, but that does not mean the series is less hated. Especially when I see a good portion of western NH and SS fans say "This series sucks."

As for money making....well, then I guess Micheal Bay is one of the greatest directors of all time since he is a billion dollar industry with just the transformers movies alone. No matter how bad they are or how many people "hate him" as a director. "I make that dollor yall." -Bay on ERB.

Naruto will not be remembered for its box office hits or for it's great story. I mean, only 1 year has passed and NO ONE even remembers the real story of Naruto because we have been fed so much kitten that the real story has been lost in the garbage. The only thing people will remember Naruto for now....is the pairing wars....and that is it. Nothing else matters to the story. Will people remember the story of a boy who overcame diversity? Nope, only that the boy pity kittened a big boobed bimbo. That is all they will remember.

And the story deserves that fate.
 

 

Ugh...I hate Rei so much....I really really do,





 

Truer words have never been spoken, well done James well done. I've been rereading the Naruto series to go through and count up how chapters and pages Hinata has been in and on I'm only at vol 22 and finishing the Choji and Jirobo fight and staring one of the better fights Neji and Kidomaru and go through the series again and really looking through it I'm amazed at how bad the series was at times especially with UDS(Uchiha kitten sucking) were Naruto got pushed to the side and the whole and story when right to Sasuke and it is so pain to read. And Hinata is still useless and  barely in the first 27 vol and 238 chapters.

 

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

To be fair I think Lelouch plan things out way better and accepted his  fate at the end of the series.

He definitely thought things out more, but still also was a bit selfish in how he did things (not seeming to consider how much his death would hurt Nunnally and others who cared about him or the fact that Suzaku is pretty much enslaved to give up who he is in order to play Zero in Lelouch's stead to keep up the illusion and such).

Regardless of the deeper details though, the biggest difference between Lelouch and Sasuke is that at least Lelouch was willing to die for what he believed in (at least at the very end after he accomplished everything else he wanted) whereas Sasuke is far more like Light in Death Note; someone who felt he couldn't/shouldn't die and keep on controlling everything himself while, in the meantime, believing he was invincible/untouchable, and if driven into such a corner, quickly devolves from the "genius" he's touted as being and into a sniveling hypocritical coward (vs. Itachi being the prime example).

[db84x]

@ TouKen

Most of NS is adult and contain heavily liberal value, Kishi don't got prize from Japan conservative goverment for free right.

 

@ BlackBird19

Kishi uproot NS foundation because understand NS potential, so for discourage NS influence to Naruto fandom in future than he use word of god power to eliminate it.  Naruto is aimed for kid and preeten while most of adult move on, so why we must advise story for kid and preeten for adult ?

 

@ James

All of us knew that Naruto isn't your taste, why you still can't accept that ?

 

@ Yyubie

Why you soo eager paint NS as ignorant salty shipper community ?  Btw thanks for your devotion to Kishi plan, Kishi himself very pleased with your devotion.

Edited by db84x, 27 February 2016 - 07:28 PM.

[TouKen4Life3g]

Well, I guess you acknowledge matured audience understands writing 101, so thank you?

 

 

Um...Ok...

 

Even target audience still get normal writing. I guess it's equivalent to old wrestling where guys can't wrestle for crap, but swing a chair, you're a star.

Edited by TouKen4Life3g, 27 February 2016 - 08:25 PM.

[James S Cassidy]

@James

​This kid doesn't bother me. If anything I find his way of rationalizing everything pretty astonishing, and very vindicating for those like myself who used basic reading comprehension to come to their point of view and have no need to bend facts to rationalize my stance.

No, you miss understand. It's not about whether they annoy you, but rather you will never convince them to see it the things you do no matter how much time or effort you place in posts, so your efforts are pointless. Common sense or not. I'd argue all the time on tumblr and such to try to put logic back into the community, but some people just don;t want that.

It's like...well, to give an example...I was talking to a pro-NH SS person and while I kept showing them the evidence that they told me to prove they refused to accept the proof by either saying "Kishimoto was just trolling" or worse when they say "It doesn't matter, Kishimoto still chose NH and SS in the end" despite me showing them that there might be a good chance Kishimoto didn't chose anything, but rather was told to make NH canon. So their entire logic came down to "it doesn't matter how bad it is, as long as NH became canon, I am happy" and then proceeded to tell me I was "too much into the series." It's these kind of people I just want to smack because they don't understand anything nor do I considering them anime fans.

After a while, it stopped annoying me and instead I just said "I am not doing it anymore." I may make an argument every now and then, but I got tired of showing proof of things or pointing out the obvious things and interviews and all the other person says is "That's not proof" despite it being there in black and white. So I don't give proof anymore and just say "Well, if you're a true Naruto fan, you would be following all this already., This should be common knowledge to you." Which now is a fun way to piss them off.

With db here....I find no reason to keep arguing with them because nothing you can say will get them to see it any other way. And that's fine. They can live in that denial all they want. The only thing that might bother me now is whether or not this person judges me as a person for my comments, but again, I am not here to impress them anymore. I am not here to impress anyone. I am tired of trying to live by standards that people won't recognize and then don't show me the same respect in return because THEY took it the wrong way. THEY took my words as being confrontational against them when that is never the case...most of the time. Most of the time I am just trying to explain my view and they tell me to "Chill out." So in effort I return the favor and piss them off by saying "Hey, it was just an opinion. Chill out" and then they fail to realize that they hate that phrase as much as I do.

Really, just try this and see how far the person starts to get upset. Every time they speak or respond to you just say "Hey, man. Chill out. It was just a comment" and watch as they get mad at you and hate you for it to the point of possibly even banning you. So much do they fail to realize that they do it to other people and it only makes things worse not better. In the end, I just...stopped trying to argue. Not because I have nothing to say or have no counter to it, but rather that the other party won't listen or even agree with anything I say even if I provide proof that even Kishimoto thinks the same way. It's just...not worth it anymore. It's not worth the stress and it is not worth the hassle.

That's all I am saying. Naruto, as a series, is not that great and slowly the fanbase is just decaying. Most of the fanbase has either moved on or don't care anymore and the only ones still hanging onto it are the radical fans who care more about the pairing sexicles than anything else. It's funny how in this series people tell me "it is not about romance," but then that is ALL the fans care about anymore. The romance. You might as well say Naruto is a harem now because that is what it has turned into. A shojo harem staring Hinata Hyuga.

I mean look at this
 

@ James

All of us knew that Naruto isn't your taste, why you still can't accept that ?

Like what kind of response is that? This person truly doesn't know anything just by the fact that they make this statement and it is all these kind of statements that I just ignore and not even bother to answer because the "all of us" here know the real answer to this question. Hell, even 4life here knows the real answer to this question.

But I will tell you what...just to play the humor game. Heh, The Humor Games....I offer myself as tribute.

I will answer this question if you can answer these several ones.

@fandom as a whole
Why can't you all accept that NS was the real pairing that should have ended on?
Why can't you accept that Naruto and Hinata and Sasuke and Sakura are miserable?
Why do you all judge a series just by pairings anyway instead of reading the story for the development and story progression?
Why do you hate character development?
Why can't you accept that maybe you were wrong and that your favoritism has blinded you to the ultimate truth?
Why do you consider yourself anime fans when Naruto is the only series you know?
Why do get the wrong idea about violence in anime and manga?
Why can't you differentiate the difference between love and lust and obsession and guilt-trip?
Why can't you accept that you destroyed the story due to your obsession over pairings?

And this is just the first page of questions, but I settle for these for now.

@Sp and Kishimoto
Why don't you just change the ending and make NS canon and the rest of the characters living happily?
Why do you keep contradicting yourselves in interviews?
Why don't you care anymore?
Why don't you see the true backlash and hate of Naruto now and actually fix the problem instead of just trying to convince people that what you did was the right course of action?
Why don't you fix it?
Why don't you fix it?
Why don't you fix it?
WHY DON'T YOU FIX IT?
WHY DON'T YOU FIX IT AND ACTUALLY CHANGE THE ENDING?
Why were you such a coward to bend to the will of a minority fandom in fear of hating them?
Why don't you realize that you don't have real Naruto fans anymore?

Why don't you stop with the fillers that are just painful to watch?
Why don't you actually make good anime and not just keep butchering everything else?
Why do you insult your fanbase and alienate most of them?
Why can't you accept that you messed up and admit it?

and the biggest question of all. The mother of all questions...

Why don't you care anymore?

And I want REAL responses. This is for the people themselves to answer. I truly want to see if they understand themselves and how obsessed they really are. The fact that they ban these kinds of questions from being asked just shows how much of cowards they really are and how unwilling they are to accept they messed up. If they cared more about the bigger picture...about what is truly right...then maybe things would not have have gotten this far.

My biggest mistake out of all of this was giving them too much credit believing they were better people. (Both fans and the big wigs alike.)
 

 

Truer words have never been spoken, well done James well done. I've been rereading the Naruto series to go through and count up how chapters and pages Hinata has been in and on I'm only at vol 22 and finishing the Choji and Jirobo fight and staring one of the better fights Neji and Kidomaru and go through the series again and really looking through it I'm amazed at how bad the series was at times especially with UDS(Uchiha kitten sucking) were Naruto got pushed to the side and the whole and story when right to Sasuke and it is so pain to read. And Hinata is still useless and  barely in the first 27 vol and 238 chapters.

 

Yeah, going back and rereading the series you really start to read all the faults of it. Granted between Part 1 and up to the Pein Arc things were pretty much stable, it is not without flaws. Like you said, all of the Sasuke worshipping by both the author and the characters in the show was out of control. The characters with so much potential just got tossed away like nothing. I much rather read Rock Lee than Naruto at this point. Rock Lee, Gaara, Neji, and Jiraiya...these four characters alone could have made more interesting stories.
 

But what really gets me is the fact that after the three main characters reached a certain point...they just stopped progressing. (Should I be coy here and say the big three is Sasuke, Naruto, and Hinata to point at the fact that people say Hinata is the heroine now and not Sakura?) Jokes aside, the biggest issue is the fact Kishimoto refused to let these characters move beyond a certain point. Just downright refused and even forcing them to stay stagnant. Perhaps for fear of alienating parts of his fanbase? Well, he stuck to his guns and he alienated more of his fanbase than ever including his own wife...so I don't think changing the elements could have been any worse now.

I could easily solve the problems and change the story for the better just by changing one simple element of each character.

Sasuke. All you had to do was showcase him self-fluxing. We had already established that Sasuke is not right in the head and he fluxes between good and...not so good (can't really say evil here because apparently he never was evil), but to see him have a true struggle between himself and his old life would have made his character show how messed up he truly is. When I mean self-fluxing, what I mean is his own personal mind struggle. Have him question if he was doing the right thing, but then showcase that through action. Turn him into Darth Vader. "Join me, Naruto and together we can change this ninja world for the better. We can rule as brothers." You know what I am saying? You can even have him flux on his love emotions. Maybe have him fall in love with Karin and accidentally stab her out of anger because she wants to beg him to stop. Then he just loses it thinking she died only to be shown that she is alive and in the end realizes what he really wanted was a family. (Having Karin alone die would not be the main reason for it all like Obito, but rather the final straw on the camell's back.) We sort of got this in the end, but it was just poorly executed and felt more forced than a progression. Plus Sasuke didn't really change as a character. he just jumped back to stage 1 of his character. Just like how they all became even Naruto.

Naruto. You need to have him learn the simple fact that just because you get your way doesn't mean it becomes exactly like you wanted. Have him understand that life is not so simple in waving a magic wand and making it all better. Again, he sort of learned this with Pein, but then just turned stagnant. Pein was probably the last time Naruto learned anything only for him to become even more selfish and stupid. Have him understand that dying for your beliefs is easily, but living for them is a lot trickier. Just to simply throw your life away would hurt to many people who love and care about you because they think that you don't care about the. Learn balance and understanding that fate sometimes had to occur even if you don't want to. It is unavoidable. You can still make him be that underdog that prevails in the end, but just have him know that their powers on Earth are limited. We can't change everything, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try. Living your life complete and strong despite the outcome is the way to live a full life.

Sakura. My god the easiest of the three to fix. JUST HAVE HER GET OVER SASUKE AND FALL IN LOVE WITH NARUTO. Now this might seem shallow at first, but just think about this. In the beginning she had a childish crush on Sasuke and hated others because of it, but to grow up means that what we think would makes us happy and what actually does are two different things. In "Scott PIlgrim vs the World" Romana says a very interesting line: "You shouldn't have to tear your life to pieces to make another person's life whole." That's speaks so many true words. I would like for Sakura to be as strong as Naruto and Sasuke, but if that cannot be done...the least that could or SHOULD have happened was this. Her just understanding the difference between superficial love and real love. Seeing her truly overcome that. To stop being emotionally dependent on Sasuke to feed her compliments and be stronger for herself to move forward without Sasuke would shown how much she has overcome on so many levels. She grew up. This is expectantly true when you remember that her real motives to be with Sasuke was to be popular cause she hated herself and hated the way she looked. To overcome that means that she accepted herself for the way she is and for the way Naruto loves her.

I also think having her truly be in love with Naruto is actually an imperative. Not because NS is my favorite pairing, but because from a story stand point it would show something far greater. For Sakura to be with Sasuke and Naruto to be with Hinata, they had to shatter their own images to fit into their molds. For NS, they would not need to break anything. They fit perfectly already. So instead of breaking down, they build up into something truly amazing. Something that is whole. Heaven and Earth where the horizon meets the sky and a new world begins. And just as the future is, what is beyond the horizon line is a mystery that can only be known by going to that edge and crossing it.

This is why, on my podcast, I always used the line "Bring me that horizon" because I wanted to see Heaven and Earth combine.

Edited by James S Cassidy, 27 February 2016 - 11:25 PM.

[Tsuki Hoshino]

@ TouKen

Most of NS is adult and contain heavily liberal value, Kishi don't got prize from Japan conservative goverment for free right.

 

@ BlackBird19

Kishi uproot NS foundation because understand NS potential, so for discourage NS influence to Naruto fandom in future than he use word of god power to eliminate it.  Naruto is aimed for kid and preeten while most of adult move on, so why we must advise story for kid and preeten for adult ?

 

WAT? I don't think we have the statistics to sit here and claim that NS= Liberal and Naruhina/Sasusaku= Conservative. In fact i find it insulting and Stereotyping....especially when you have to factor in the differences between EASTERN conservatism/liberalism to WESTERN conservative/liberalism, because i imagine there are differences between the two. 

[archangel]

To me, the story ended after the Pain arc. Up until that point the story of Naruto was cohesive, had goals and was steadily checking those off in the typical 'hero's journey' way. He had defeated the Big Bad (Pain), been acknowledged by the village and his main love interest, and now all he had to save Sasuke.

 

Again, plugging into the hero's journey formula, this would have been a task the Naruto and Naruto alone had to do. So the final lost arc of this story of Naruto would have been a second "Save Sasuke Arc," taken on by Naruto alone. And that struggle/battle/resolution would have mirrored the end of the Part 1, with the 'Save Sasuke Arc' where the all the rookies battled to save him.

 

(And keeping with the hero's journey formula, Naruto would succeed where the whole group failed because he alone had the mystical 'child of prophecy' power needed to save Sasuke, which would of course be revealed in the final struggle when it kicked into gear to save Naruto and change Sasuke's heart at the last minute.)

 

In the lost arc, the last overarching plot point of saving Sasuke would have been resolved. Then the story would have been finished, all goals met.

 

But unfortunately, they opted to drag the series out for 5+ more years, making bags of money, and unraveled the entire story. While I don't like Sasuke or Hinata, I don't think the story was continued just for those characters. (Although it might have been a secondary goal for some staff members). I think the people over Kishimoto's head offered him a deal he couldn't refuse: extending his contract and dragging out the story.

 

After that, for me, there is just simply no more story. EVERYTHING is filler arc after filler arc, waiting until the end. There is no more plot. Only needless battles and rivalry, punctuated by Sasuke looking cool and Hinata being sappy. Naruto, as a story, simply ceases to exist.

 

And it's crazy because I can't even argue plot points or where things went wrong. There was no effort made to continue anything even remotely like a plot for Naruto. I suppose there was some effort made with Sasuke and the Uchiha characters and backgrounds, but even those are largely unresolved. But it's not like we're looking comparing a 'Naruto' half of the story with a 'Sasuke' half. Most of the Uchiha moments turned out to be mostly filler as well, leading to the last battle with Naruto and Sasuke feeling just tacked on at the end. 

 

My takeaway from the manga, looking back on it after time has passed, is that there was a clear, cohesive, enjoyable story through the Pain Arc. And then it stopped. And the fragmented mess of Part 2 doesn't even resemble a story. Just weekly installments that we were led to believe were going somewhere. But in the end, the only place it went was to lead us farther and farther away from what the original story was about.

 

I guessed they hoped they could capture the fans in a never-ending loop of loosely resolved stories featuring less and less compelling characters. Well, I don't think that strategy is working out too well for them. For me, the story ended with the Pain arc. The rest is just a money grab.

Just out of curiosity, after Pain, am I alone tha continue reading Naruto because I was too far in. I mean the last 4 years,my two friends and I were feeling it drag way too long for nothing (especially after the Edo tensei waste.. Kakashi vs 7 swordsmen wasted. Sakura vs Chiyo anyone. Neji vs his dad. LEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE the most wasted character, I blame Hinata existence for that & Gaara vs Kimimaro 2) My highlights during the war were Kushina's chapter(where he learn to control the fox) and the fight between Madara and Guy (I can call anything Kaguya related good since I'm still in shock that this main villain exist for 10 chapter. I was like reading it, hoping it end soon, ESPECIALLY after the Neji's death mess.It happen for NO REASON (could have been prevented) ,NO REACTION from Guy's team part and sociopath Hinata who just doesn't care, Naruto is the only thing that exist for her. Not even a tear.  I was continuing to read by the end just to see the end and boy, it disappointed BIG TIME. Like the worst case scenario who too far fetch to happen ACTUALLY HAPPEN. Not even an Naruto celebration (Like the pain arc deliver.) Yep, it hurts.

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

@James

1.) Yeah, those kinds of people seem to take any kind of opinion that contradicts their own as some sort of personal attack, but then they quickly show a double-standard when it comes to themselves or others. It's always wrong if others do it to them but it's perfectly fine when they do it to others because it's somehow always "different" in their mind. Sadly, such toxicity is everywhere where there are such deep-seated rivalries...Marvel vs. DC, Batman vs. Superman, Goku vs. Superman, Godzilla vs. Gamera, Pokemon vs. Digimon, Yu-Gi-Oh! vs. Vanguard, Gundam(s) series X vs. Gundam(s) series Y, etc., etc. Aside from Naruto, I've seen a lot of vitriol on both sides in such fandoms. It's why I try to completely avoid any such debates unless I truly feel I have facts behind me and/or I feel the people involved are mature enough to be civil about the discussion, like with Godzilla against Gamera or Digimon against Pokemon, but as I'm not an avid comic book reader, I can't really comment on other things like DC/Marvel, Batman/Superman, etc.

2.) Definitely.

Sasuke's fight with Itachi and Naruto's fight with Pein should have been the very end of their "childhood phase" essentially and be a starting point for them to truly start maturing as adults in one way or another (I'd personally want them to have already been under way at the very start of part two), their views being expanded to see beyond their own narrow-minded / view of the world, but they just got stuck. (Not sure on what point with Sakura, but it seemed like, up through the Pein Arc anyway, she had already been progressing.) If Kishi had actually done this (well), then there wouldn't be such a huge problem for me with Naruto or Sasuke becoming Hokage shortly after the end of the story, but because of how much they hadn't progressed, I just can never see either of them as being worthy of, much less ready for being Chunin much less Kage outside of brute power.

[James S Cassidy]

WAT? I don't think we have the statistics to sit here and claim that NS= Liberal and Naruhina/Sasusaku= Conservative. In fact i find it insulting and Stereotyping....especially when you have to factor in the differences between EASTERN conservatism/liberalism to WESTERN conservative/liberalism, because i imagine there are differences between the two. 

XD Like I said, excuses, semantics, and denial....It's the same stuff over and over. This is why I just stopped talking to people who play these games.

However, I really want everyone to remember three very important things. No matter how many awards Kishimoto gets...it does not make Naruto a good story nor does it fix the issues with it. No matter how much sales he makes, the fandom, for the majority, is still very much says that the story of Naruto sucks. This isn't even from the Naruto haters, but from the fans themselves who followed this series years on end. And finally, no matter how what happens in the story...Kishimoto, SP, and the like are just bad writers and forgot the meaning of true artistic integrity.

If you love all your characters, you don't throw one under the bus to make another more likable.
If you love to writer your story, you don't make other people write the story for you.
If you truly mean by the words you say or the advice you give, you don't do the opposite because someone told you to out of the idea of money making.

Again, I have to bring up One Punch Man. ONE had nothing in the beginning. No editor, no big company support. Nothing and yet, he made a story so amazing that even other mangaka are in awe. That an entire anime studio is in awe and says "We have to do this series justice. We want to make it a reality" and all ONE was doing was doing what he loved. What happened Kishimoto? Did you just stop loving Naruto? Did it all become meaningless? I want to know. The awards, the money, the infamy. It fulfills nothing if you can't even enjoy what you do. If you can't even remain true to yourself because someone else bullied you to do it a certain way, then life becomes meaningless.

I think this is the real tragedy out of all of it.
 

 

Just out of curiosity, after Pain, am I alone tha continue reading Naruto because I was too far in. I mean the last 4 years

 

No, you are not alone. In fact, for a long time not only did I stay invested, but I made excuses in believing that maybe...just maybe the ending could justify it all. That the ending can help me forgive the mistakes if you just ended it in a way that was amazing. But it didn't...the ending let me down. The ending let everyone down...and now all anyone can see in this series is the bad.

The good times are now just memories.
 

 

@James

1.) Yeah, those kinds of people seem to take any kind of opinion that contradicts their own as some sort of personal attack, but then they quickly show a double-standard when it comes to themselves or others. It's always wrong if others do it to them but it's perfectly fine when they do it to others because it's somehow always "different" in their mind. Sadly, such toxicity is everywhere where there are such deep-seated rivalries...Marvel vs. DC, Batman vs. Superman, Goku vs. Superman, Godzilla vs. Gamera, Pokemon vs. Digimon, Yu-Gi-Oh! vs. Vanguard, Gundam(s) series X vs. Gundam(s) series Y, etc., etc. Aside from Naruto, I've seen a lot of vitriol on both sides in such fandoms. It's why I try to completely avoid any such debates unless I truly feel I have facts behind me and/or I feel the people involved are mature enough to be civil about the discussion, like with Godzilla against Gamera or Digimon against Pokemon, but as I'm not an avid comic book reader, I can't really comment on other things like DC/Marvel, Batman/Superman, etc.

2.) Definitely.

Sasuke's fight with Itachi and Naruto's fight with Pein should have been the very end of their "childhood phase" essentially and be a starting point for them to truly start maturing as adults in one way or another (I'd personally want them to have already been under way at the very start of part two), their views being expanded to see beyond their own narrow-minded / view of the world, but they just got stuck. (Not sure on what point with Sakura, but it seemed like, up through the Pein Arc anyway, she had already been progressing.) If Kishi had actually done this (well), then there wouldn't be such a huge problem for me with Naruto or Sasuke becoming Hokage shortly after the end of the story, but because of how much they hadn't progressed, I just can never see either of them as being worthy of, much less ready for being Chunin much less Kage outside of brute power.

You are very right, my friend. The fandom and rivalry was always a thing since the beginning of time. One favors one over the other. It's just...that favoritism should NOT influence a dramatic change in stories to the point of breaking them.

I have gone into such great details on this and really don't want to repeat most of it, but to put it simply fandoms are coming off more as childish brats than actual people now. I got kicked from the Flash fandom on Facebook because I showed them times where Superman beat the Flash outright and they took great offense to this. I love Superman and he is my favorite, but even I admit that he hasn't always been that great. I am not going to sit here and say "Superman Returns in the greatest movie of all time" when I know it isn't. I know the Flash can beat Superman, but I also know far more details that people forget. Little details that make all the difference.

In the end though, I just wish people would grow up and just stop being childish. I used to be just like them, but after a while I learned that things can be good even if I don't get exactly my way. I was stupid then, but Ia m smarter now.

This is the only good the Naruto end has brought me. I woke up from a nightmare that I mistook for a dream.

 

Edited by James S Cassidy, 27 February 2016 - 11:38 PM.

[Tsuki Hoshino]

XD Like I said, excuses, semantics, and denial....It's the same stuff over and over. This is why I just stopped talking to people who play these games.

However, I really want everyone to remember three very important things. No matter how many awards Kishimoto gets...it does not make Naruto a good story nor does it fix the issues with it. No matter how much sales he makes, the fandom, for the majority, is still very much says that the story of Naruto sucks. This isn't even from the Naruto haters, but from the fans themselves who followed this series years on end. And finally, no matter how what happens in the story...Kishimoto, SP, and the like are just bad writers and forgot the meaning of true artistic integrity.

If you love all your characters, you don't throw one under the bus to make another more likable.
If you love to writer your story, you don't make other people write the story for you.
If you truly mean by the words you say or the advice you give, you don't do the opposite because someone told you to out of the idea of money making.

Again, I have to bring up One Punch Man. ONE had nothing in the beginning. No editor, no big company support. Nothing and yet, he made a story so amazing that even other mangaka are in awe. That an entire anime studio is in awe and says "We have to do this series justice. We want to make it a reality" and all ONE was doing was doing what he loved. What happened Kishimoto? Did you just stop loving Naruto? Did it all become meaningless? I want to know. The awards, the money, the infamy. It fulfills nothing if you can't even enjoy what you do. If you can't even remain true to yourself because someone else bullied you to do it a certain way, then life becomes meaningless.

I think this is the real tragedy out of all of it.
 

 

 

No, you are not alone. In fact, for a long time not only did I stay invested, but I made excuses in believing that maybe...just maybe the ending could justify it all. That the ending can help me forgive the mistakes if you just ended it in a way that was amazing. But it didn't...the ending let me down. The ending let everyone down...and now all anyone can see in this series is the bad.

The good times are now just memories.

 

I'm just trying to figure out what having a conservative award has to do with writing a cohesive story and sticking to previously established FACTS and STRUCTURES of one's story.....These things are not bound by Conservative/Liberal values. 

In the end i personally think Kishimoto flew too high and he ended up crashing. On purpose. 
 

[James S Cassidy]

I'm just trying to figure out what having a conservative award has to do with writing a cohesive story and sticking to previously established FACTS and STRUCTURES of one's story.....These things are not bound by Conservative/Liberal values. 

In the end i personally think Kishimoto flew too high and he ended up crashing. On purpose. 
 

It's probably better if you don't and just ignore the comment. Sorry if I come off as bossy or something, I just don't want to see something start that shouldn't and want to keep you away from arguments that you'll regret. These kind of ideals are slowly treading on ground that should not be crossed.

Liberal/conservative views on Naruto is just....asinine. It's a really asinine thing and really they have nothing in common. You can stretch the facts in many different ways to fit anything with enough logic. Like...imagine if I were to say

"NaruHina and SasuSaku is liberal because it is a lot like socialism and communism. One person is forced to give up and share their accomplishments with another character who does nothing and in turn that other character needs to be seen as a new heroine. Basically, everyone gives up everything so Hinata can look better."

Which, in a few certain ways, would not be false, but the statement within itself is just stupid. No offense to anyone who is liberal, I am just making an example and showing how stupid such a claim it can be. Please do not get mad at me as I know people deserve more respect than that.

Edited by James S Cassidy, 27 February 2016 - 11:50 PM.

[Tsuki Hoshino]

It's probably better if you don't and just ignore the comment. Sorry if I come off as bossy or something, I just don't want to see something start that shouldn't and want to keep you away from arguments that you'll regret. These kind of ideals are slowly treading on ground that should not be crossed.

Liberal/conservative views on Naruto is just....asinine. It's a really asinine thing and really they have nothing in common. You can stretch the facts in many different ways to fit anything with enough logic. Like...imagine if I were to say

"NaruHina and SasuSaku is liberal because it is a lot like socialism and communism. One person is forced to give up and share their accomplishments with another character who does nothing and in turn that other character needs to be seen as a new heroine. Basically, everyone gives up everything so Hinata can look better."

Which, in a few certain ways, would not be false, but the statement within itself is just stupid. No offense to anyone who is liberal, I am just making an example and showing how stupid such a claim it can be. Please do not get mad at me as I know people deserve more respect than that.

Well if you put it like that it sounds 100% accurate

I mean there is no doubt that That if you were LOOKING for it there are conservative AND liberal aspects littered throughout the story, but at the end of the day they really mean nothing in terms of the AUDIENCES opinion of whether its outcome was good or bad. 

You could argue it either way and there would always be exceptions...


But i am definitely seeing some Confucian aspects in how Kishimoto views women and relationships in general.... 

[rocci]

@tsukihoshino
Naruto is Confucian. That's the East Asian conservative value, including japan.
Harmony, yin yang, women stay in the house, and all that thing.

Personally, I don't see that as a problem.

Edited by rocci, 28 February 2016 - 01:21 AM.

[Tsuki Hoshino]

@tsukihoshino
Naruto is Confucian. That's the East Asian conservative value, including japan.
Harmony, yin yang, women stay in the house, and all that thing.

Personally, I don't see that as a problem.

Considering Confucianism also views women at the very bottom of the hierarchy, including behind their own children...its antiquated. 

Confucianism also states you should OBEY and be subservient to hubby no matter what  in ye olden days there were people who thought a wife was better off dying if widowed by her husband lest her honor be sullied by remarrying. That thinking fits NH and SS to a "T."

Sakura's a bad woman if she has feelings for a new person. 

Hinata is the ideal wife because she is subservient to Naruto.

These are just a few examples of what we all agreed were wrong and their influence could be pinpointed in Confucianism .   

Nor do i take issue with women VOLUNTARILY staying home, i take issue with Sakura doing it because it seems out of character. 

 

[rocci]

@tsukihoshino
Well, that's the viewpoint for almost all traditional culture regarding women.

That's sakura statement will be right if sakura in a romantic relationship with sasuke. You can still remarried in most traditional culture, including Confucius.

What's wrong with that Hinata statement?

I don't understand why kishi need to make her in house wife not working when sasuke doesn't provide them at all. I don't think it's OOC considering sakura love(obsession) to sasuke.

[BlackBird19]

That traditional stance on Confucianism, along with economic issues, is one of the main reasons that Japan's population is decreasing, growing older and seeing birthrates consistently lower. So it has become a problem for them.