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#34601 Gojira

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 07:34 PM

After reading a huge block of text about confessions in the Japanese culture, I'm pretty certain that 90% of them are ambiguous. And really confusing for us (the non-japanese readers). "Fake"/"True", those bipolar categories are just not enough to understand the inner reasoning. We don't possess the same social perspective, so that is why our interpretation is greatly impaired by our cultural background. In other words... a) we need RAWs (choice of words is very important); b) we need to make a thorough analysis of the situation (Sakura's POV, Naruto's POV, objective witness POV, author's POV) taking into account the japanese conventions; c) it's a pain in the ass. 

 

For example, Sasuke's famous "thank you", that many SS shippers consider a sign of love or deep affection, can be interpreted (within the said social context) as a polite/mild way of rejection. No hidden meanings, no secret passion, nothing more but a short form to deliver his negative answer: regrettably (let us assume this) Sasuke couldn't accept Sakura's feelings because they weren't mutual. And nothing really changed between them since that day in the romantic department. The bonds that suffered were platonic in their nature.   

I don't think his rejection was even mild. She poured her heart out to him and told him just how important he was to her and he responded by insulting her and what I'm guessing was a karate chop to the back of the neck.


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#34602 Hiyuusha

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 07:35 PM

After reading a huge block of text about confessions in the Japanese culture, I'm pretty certain that 90% of them are ambiguous. And really confusing for us (the non-japanese readers). "Fake"/"True", those bipolar categories are just not enough to understand the inner reasoning. We don't possess the same social perspective, so that is why our interpretation is greatly impaired by our cultural background. In other words... a) we need RAWs (choice of words is very important); b) we need to make a thorough analysis of the situation (Sakura's POV, Naruto's POV, objective witness POV, author's POV) taking into account the japanese conventions; c) it's a pain in the ass. 
 
For example, Sasuke's famous "thank you", that many SS shippers consider a sign of love or deep affection, can be interpreted (within the said social context) as a polite/mild way of rejection. No hidden meanings, no secret passion, nothing more but a short form to deliver a negative answer.  


True, when reading a manga lots of people forget that even when it's translated into English, it still initially written to have Japanese meaning and symbols. On the other hand though, let's not forget that Naruto is first and foremost a tale that it story driven. Overanalyze everything is well. Remember when lots thought Tobi could be anyone except Obito?

#34603 Syn11

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 07:46 PM

True, when reading a manga lots of people forget that even when it's translated into English, it still initially written to have Japanese meaning and symbols. On the other hand though, let's not forget that Naruto is first and foremost a tale that it story driven. Overanalyze everything is well. Remember when lots thought Tobi could be anyone except Obito?

I'm not saying that we should forget about the story, I'm saying that we shouldn't forget who is the main audience of the story. Japanese customs, reasoning behind actions and so on are very confusing. It is ok for them to tell someone "I love you" after a short time of acquaintanceship. That's how they start a more serious relationship... and it doesn't mean that their affections run as deep as the wording sounds. Fake? For us - yes. For them it's common.


 


#34604 Hiyuusha

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 08:03 PM

I'm not saying that we should forget about the story, I'm saying that we shouldn't forget who is the main audience of the story. Japanese customs, reasoning behind actions and so on are very confusing. It is ok for them to tell someone "I love you" after a short time of acquaintanceship. That's how they start a more serious relationship... and it doesn't mean that their affections run as deep as the wording sounds. Fake? For us - yes. For them it's common.


Seems there was some misunderstanding i my poat. I was agreeing with you lol

#34605 Gojira

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 08:51 PM

I'm not saying that we should forget about the story, I'm saying that we shouldn't forget who is the main audience of the story. Japanese customs, reasoning behind actions and so on are very confusing. It is ok for them to tell someone "I love you" after a short time of acquaintanceship. That's how they start a more serious relationship... and it doesn't mean that their affections run as deep as the wording sounds. Fake? For us - yes. For them it's common.

Either way concerning the context of the translation for this chapter

spoiler title

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#34606 Syn11

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 09:12 PM

Either way concerning the context of the translation for this chapter

spoiler title

Lol. I'm prepared as well!


 


#34607 Alessa

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 09:15 PM

I'm not saying that we should forget about the story, I'm saying that we shouldn't forget who is the main audience of the story. Japanese customs, reasoning behind actions and so on are very confusing. It is ok for them to tell someone "I love you" after a short time of acquaintanceship. That's how they start a more serious relationship... and it doesn't mean that their affections run as deep as the wording sounds. Fake? For us - yes. For them it's common.

That confession is indeed story driven, so I'm not basing my opinion (that it is fake) on concrete expressions Sakura used. No matter what she said, she said it because of what was happening with Sasuke at the moment (decision of the village to kill him). That was vivid. She wouldn't have confessed to Naruto if Sasuke hadn't crossed the line and Sai hadn't told her about the POAL, how it affects Naruto's well-being. And it is not that she wouldn't feel the need to, I strongly believe that her fixation on Sasuke would not even let her consider it. Even if Sakura were aware of her feelings for Naruto, it was too early for her to confess, she was still holding Sasuke as a centre of her attention. I think that it was proven by the fact that she didn't adress the issue of confession after that arc and continued to think of Sasuke in her "who is your lover" scenes. In other words, after the crisis has passed, she showed no signs of that confession impacting anything. That would seem such a bad writing only if you cling to the idea that that confession held so much truth in it. (Though not adressing Hinata's confession is bad writing, there is no excuse there. Poor girl is still waiting for an answer, and if she doesn't this is just sick on her part. It would prove that she only loves to love Naruto.)

 

So no matter how "big" Sakura's "I love you" was in Japaneese sense, it was about Sakura choosing Naruto over Sasuke. If you say that "I love you" wasn't such a big deal and was truthful, it just takes an emphasis from these words and puts it on the other that were about prefering Naruto over Sasuke.  It was a lie at that moment. She was ready to take responsibility for her own words, but she was not feeling that they were right herself. Otherwise she wouldn't have said things about herself that were judging her own character so poorly.  I would even say that that confession existed only because Sasuke was going to be killed by her in her mind. But even more important- she would not even consider confessing if the situation didn't require it.


Edited by Alessa, 01 October 2014 - 09:17 PM.

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#34608 Gojira

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 09:21 PM

That confession is indeed story driven, so I'm not basing my opinion (that it is fake) on concrete expressions Sakura used. No matter what she said, she said it because of what was happening with Sasuke at the moment (decision of the village to kill him). That was vivid. She wouldn't have confessed to Naruto if Sasuke hadn't crossed the line and Sai hadn't told her about the POAL, how it affects Naruto's well-being. And it is not that she wouldn't feel the need to, I strongly believe that her fixation on Sasuke would not even let her consider it. Even if Sakura were aware of her feelings for Naruto, it was too early for her to confess, she was still holding Sasuke as a centre of her attention. I think that it was proven by the fact that she didn't adress the issue of confession after that arc and continued to think of Sasuke in her "who is your lover" scenes. In other words, after the crisis has passed, she showed no signs of that confession impacting anything. That would seem such a bad writing only if you cling to the idea that that confession held so much truth in it. (Though not adressing Hinata's confession is bad writing, there is no excuse there. Poor girl is still waiting for an answer, and if she doesn't this is just sick on her part. It would prove that she only loves to love Naruto.)

 

So no matter how "big" Sakura's "I love you" was in Japaneese sense, it was about Sakura choosing Naruto over Sasuke. If you say that "I love you" wasn't such a big deal and was truthful, it just takes an emphasis from these words and puts it on the other that were about prefering Naruto over Sasuke.  It was a lie at that moment. She was ready to take responsibility for her own words, but she was not feeling that they were right herself. Otherwise she wouldn't have said things about herself that were judging her own character so poorly.  I would even say that that confession existed only because Sasuke was going to be killed by her in her mind. But even more important- she would not even consider confessing if the situation didn't require it.

Again this is all contradicted by the fact that Kishi himself said "on the contrary" to her confession being a lie and continued saying she was being geniune and honest.

 

Really i dont see what the problem here is, she even goes and lists all the reasons why she should be in love with him. She isn't suddenly going to have a second epiphany and re-realize all the stuff she just talked about.

 

Also 540 was ambigious especially with SP when she said the very next day that Sasuke was "someone she used to love"

 

It really wouldn't make sense for 540 being the trigger that got her to get over Sasuke in one night whereas several days after LOI wasn't able to apparently do.


Edited by Pepsi, 01 October 2014 - 09:23 PM.

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#34609 Syn11

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 09:40 PM

That confession is indeed story driven, so I'm not basing my opinion (that it is fake) on concrete expressions Sakura used. No matter what she said, she said it because of what was happening with Sasuke at the moment (decision of the village to kill him). That was vivid. She wouldn't have confessed to Naruto if Sasuke hadn't crossed the line and Sai hadn't told her about the POAL, how it affects Naruto's well-being. And it is not that she wouldn't feel the need to, I strongly believe that her fixation on Sasuke would not even let her consider it. Even if Sakura were aware of her feelings for Naruto, it was too early for her to confess, she was still holding Sasuke as a centre of her attention. I think that it was proven by the fact that she didn't adress the issue of confession after that arc and continued to think of Sasuke in her "who is your lover" scenes. In other words, after the crisis has passed, she showed no signs of that confession impacting anything. That would seem such a bad writing only if you cling to the idea that that confession held so much truth in it. (Though not adressing Hinata's confession is bad writing, there is no excuse there. Poor girl is still waiting for an answer, and if she doesn't this is just sick on her part. It would prove that she only loves to love Naruto.)

 

So no matter how "big" Sakura's "I love you" was in Japaneese sense, it was about Sakura choosing Naruto over Sasuke. If you say that "I love you" wasn't such a big deal and was truthful, it just takes an emphasis from these words and puts it on the other that were about prefering Naruto over Sasuke.  It was a lie at that moment. She was ready to take responsibility for her own words, but she was not feeling that they were right herself. Otherwise she wouldn't have said things about herself that were judging her own character so poorly.  I would even say that that confession existed only because Sasuke was going to be killed by her in her mind. But even more important- she would not even consider confessing if the situation didn't require it.

Your own words make the confession sound more like forced than fake. A difference, eh? I agree with you that it was forced for the most part. Yet, not fake, rather ambiguous. There are some obscure aspects which mostly concern Sakura's logic behind her actions.

If she planned (no matter what) to kill Sasuke and die along with him (as 693 suggests, as some say) then why did she choose to confess to Naruto knowing that her decision was already made/ or  expecting Naruto to see  through her deception? There was no need. She could have simply released him from the POAL without any "I love you". The reason? Give me the reason! The only one I can think of is that she wanted to tell him how she really felt before going on a suicide mission. Unlikely? Ok! Then, perhaps, her plans depended on Naruto's answer...after all. And that means that she was willing to commit herself to him. Sakura even hugged him to prove her statement (and that is a strong thing to do in public). Does it make her whole confession fake? Not necessarily. You see, the problem is that you can't fully prove that Sakura's display was a total lie. You just can't. That is entirely a matter of your opinion (at the moment), because we never got Sakura's concrete thoughts about the whole deal. Only the reactions of others. And none said that she had lied about her feelings towards Naruto. Everyone doubted her "resent" towards Sasuke. Kishimoto is an evil writer, evil!


Edited by Syn11, 01 October 2014 - 10:11 PM.

 


#34610 BlazingDynamo

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 10:48 PM

Man, I was writing that LAP until Monday part happened. So in the end...

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:lmao: :lmao:



#34611 Illnevergiveup3

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 11:45 PM

new chapter tomorrow?

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#34612 Gojira

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 11:47 PM

new chapter tomorrow?


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#34613 Hiyuusha

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 11:50 PM

And the greatest TnJ of Naruto's life will begin.

#34614 Gojira

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 11:52 PM

And the greatest TnJ of Naruto's life will begin.

A tnj that should have been done a loooooong time ago.

 

After the whole Pain incident Sasuke just seemed like small potatoes.


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#34615 Hiyuusha

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 11:54 PM

He wanted people to know he was big potatoes.

#34616 Illnevergiveup3

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 11:55 PM

And the greatest TnJ of Naruto's life will begin.

I'll be mad as hell if that's all it takes.

Edited by Illnevergiveup3, 01 October 2014 - 11:55 PM.

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#34617 Gojira

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 11:57 PM

He wanted people to know he was big potatoes.

problem is he's not. in fact in the Five Kages Summit they pretty much established that Sasuke is nothing more than a spoiled brat who will just end up making the whole world suffer because of his own selfish desires because of a past that....really isn't that big of a deal compared to everyone else.


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#34618 Hiyuusha

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Posted 02 October 2014 - 12:06 AM

He's the chosen one. Alongside NagaNaruto

#34619 Hiyuusha

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Posted 02 October 2014 - 12:07 AM

I'll be mad as hell if that's all it takes.


Itll probably be a halfsuccess. I dont really see Sasuke going back to Konoha. Especially with that deaign of his in The Last

#34620 Sedna

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Posted 02 October 2014 - 12:26 AM

Since a new chapter is coming out tommorow, does anybody know what time it'll be out? I have to wake up for school, but I want to read the chapter first.
.




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