413 replies to this topic

[Dreamer]

Please everyone, relax and don't get worked up over the scene. I believe we covered almost every possible scenario/outake on the scene in this thread and the spoiler. We all know Kishi messed up the scene but let's wait and find out why he did it. (Hopefully it will help heighten NS and make it better somehow later on in the manga. )

Originally Posted by vered at NF
Here is the full WSJ chapter 470 preview translated by shounensuki:

神をも凌駕する十尾の力…！？」
"The power of the Ten-Tails surpasses even god...!?"

「キラービーVS鬼鮫本格開戦！！その結末は！？」
"The battle of Killer Bee VS Kisame starts for real!! What will be the conclusion!?"

Everyone at NF including myself agrees that this most likely came from one of the Shounen employees rather than Kishi himself. Not mentioning anything about NaruSaku conversation is ONE BIG SIGN of of its false hood unless Kishi kept that a secret for the fans , then again I don't see Kishi doing three different scenario viewpoints in a manga with only 16 pages.

Edited by Uzumakikage, 31 October 2009 - 07:27 PM.

[Miss Soupy]

Thank you, glad someone else picked up on this. Sakura hasn't been in love with Sasuke for some time, and what feelings she has left keeps getting less as she faces reality about Sasuke more and more. Now she knows she has to cut off any feelings. Intellectually she has, but you can't break things off instantly residual things are left. She was telling the truth that she believes.

The problem with this is, it seems, until now, Sakura HASN’T faced reality. Since she and Naruto always planned all along to bring Sasuke back, why did she necessarily have to reevaluate her feelings for Sasuke? Many of us assumed she had begun to think about it, but for the most part it seems she didn’t. I guess Sasuke wasn’t bad enough yet, or something. But yeah, she didn’t think about the possibility that things wouldn’t go back to how they were because Naruto always encouraged her that they would. Now she is accepting that even Naruto’s optimism is probably wrong, that Sasuke can’t return like she always hoped, that things will NEVER be the same. Sasuke has, by his choosing, gone beyond reach, in her mind. So she is forced within this short amount of time to come to all of these conclusions about Sasuke and what things will not happen in her life.

It's getting kind of irritating to see people still saying Sakura lied on purpose, she's a b, etc... It's right in the chapter, Naruto even tells you at the end of the chapter that he knows she believes every word she says is true, she is just fooling herself that's cut off all feelings for Sasuke. You can see right in the chapter when Sakura first says she loves Naruto it's true, Naruto's reaction even confirms that. It's when she starts talking about having no feelings for Sasuke at all that is where she is fooling herself.

Sakura did lie on purpose, though. She isn’t confident enough to speak correctly with Naruto, proof of her guilt for lying. Oh and Naruto says he hates people who lie to themselves. Why would Naruto hate people who are ‘unconsciously’ lying to themselves? That would be ridiculous. Naruto doesn’t like that Sakura is ACTIVELY lying to herself. She knows it, he knows it, he calls her out on it. He tried multiple times to get her to stop ‘joking’, but every time she forged on with her lying. That is why he gets angry, so that she will stop and listen to him.

And I don’t get how Naruto’s reaction confirms Sakura is telling the truth. It is something he wants to hear, but really, how does that confirm the truth of her statement? Moments later he is seriously doubting her words. To me it shows his first unthinking response: surprise and happiness, then once he finally thinks about it he obviously decides he can’t just buy what she is saying.

Naruto is also lying to himself, pretending this change in Sakura is sudden. How about talking about how Naruto has suddenly conveniently forgotten all the obvious examples of how Sakura has fallen for him. That ought to be thrown in his face. He noticed some of them too, one even made him resolve not to use the Kyuubi power again, and hmm he went back on that promise.

It is true that Naruto is stuck in his ‘Sakura loves Sasuke’ mindset, and has been for all of part II. He doesn’t think Sakura cares for him that way. So you have to sort of view it like Naruto is an SS fan. Any moments he has with Sakura are strictly friendly.

[Merger Knight]

Hi everyone!

Long time lurker, first time poster.

I had some thoughts on this chapter that I just couldn't contain, so I thought that I'd share them.

I have never really shipped a relationship like this, but I believe that the depth of the character development in the case of Naruto and Sakura adds a great deal to the emotional depth of this manga.

... and I don't believe Kishimoto would throw that out the window.

I had a feeling that this conversation would take a turn for the worse at the end of Sai and Sakura's conversation. I saw two possibilities:

A. Sakura tells Naruto the flat out truth of the situation with the Sauske decision, and he gets upset because she has given up. Given up on Sauske ever being redeemed, and given up on Naruto being able to successfully keep his promise and making Sauske see the light. I didn't expect a positive reaction from Naruto on either front, because both reveal a lack of faith in Naruto in some respect.

or B. Sakura attempts what she did. She trys to pursuade Naruto from chasing Sauske to protect him by playing on his feelings. I don't know whether she actually convinced herself that this plan could succeed, but I do know that it's rather insulting to Naruto's intellect and his motivation. Of course he wants to bring Sauske back because of the POAL, but he also wants to save Sauske for himself and to live up to his ninja way. I don't think that he see's himself as becoming hokage until he lives up to his self expectations. As has been stated repeatedly in this thread, Naruto picked up on the fact that something was amiss with Sakura's statements (which were strange blend of sincerity and deception). If anything, I thought Naruto would be diappointed in her for not sticking to her guns in her efforts to help bring back Sauske.

Either alternative would have an immediate negative impact on the pairing. However, Kishi is definitely not doing this for no reason. I believe that he is perfectly setting up the chain of events that could lead to NaruSaku becoming cannon while highlighting the remaining stumbling blocks in he relationship.

Stumbling Blocks

A. BIGGY-Sakura has not resolved her feelings for Sauske. She still feels for him as an important person, and she may be confused as to whether or not this is romantic love.

B. Sakura has realized that she has deep feelings for Naruto, but she is blending friendship, admiration, and romantic love into one. From her statements, she is only listing logical reasons for loving him. She has never had the eye opening moment where she realizes that she loves Naruto for his personality and that he is the prince charming that she had dreamed of. Add the guilt she feels for contributing to his pain, and you get a jumble of emotions that are going to be difficult for her to confront.

C. After Naruto failed to bring Sauske back, I think that he lost some of his legendary selfconfidence. This is clearly shown in his conversation with the 4th. He must succeed in his efforts to bring Sauske back and fulfill his POAL before he can have the confidence that he is worthy of Sakura's love. Again, he says this himself in his flashback with Sai.

D. Redeeming Sauske - I don't know whether it will be turning him back to the light enough to sacrifice himself for his friends, or going off and reviving his clan in another land, but this must be accomplished before NaruSaku happens.

Possibilities

A. Sakura will have to confront Sauske at some point, whether Naruto is present or not. I believe this is where Kishi will pull his "ace in the hole" and bring up the bench scene. This will finally reveal that Naruto is the one that she has loved all along and not Sauske.

B. A main theme of this story is not giving up and second chances. We saw this in the Naruto's first attempt with the Raisen Shuriken. He messed up, but he made sure that he did not fail twice. He learned from his mistake and got stronger. Sakura is like Naruto in that sense. She has now confessed her love twice in this story. Both times were forced and for the wrong reasons. I believe she will get it right the next time around. Afterall, she is a lot like Naruto.

C. Naruto will not accept a tennative confession from Sakura. He thinks of her as a smart assertive girl that won't take no for an answer. I think that if another situation presents itsself for a sincere declartion of her love, she will look him straight in the eye and say it, simply and without flowery explanations. A nice "Get it through your head, I love you, baka!" would be a confession that Naruto could not ingore. Especially if it were followed up by a punch to get the point across. Another possibility would be a "Matrix like" revival, where Naruto is in her arms and she opens up completely, thus bringing him back somehow. Although it is a bit cliche, I guess that could work as well.

D. Hinata may become an ally to the NaruSaku fandom. Afterall, who has observed Naruto more closely than her. She has to know how he feels for Sakura. She also must know that if Sakura has grown to love him in return, that he could be truely happy. She said it herself, she was being selfish during her confession. What could be more selfless and character building than somehow encouraging NaruSaku.

E. Tsunade awakens and enlights Naruto on Sakura's changed feelings. In 2 1/2 years of intense training, there must have been a couple of vulnerable moments where Sakura may have revealed her true feelings. Afterall, why in the flashback to her training did she have long hair near the beginning, only to have it cut short after the training was completed (small detail, but still...)?

F. Karin plays significanly on Sauske's emotions, not sure how this will be worked in, but her character was created for a purpose.

G. Naruto uses his "special power" and brings Sauske back leaving Sakura to make an uninhibitted choice.

Well, everyone that wanted a Sakura arc, here it is. It may not be the main storyline, but it will definitely be an underlying theme throughout the remainder of the story. Her opponent, her own emotions, and I think that the "inner Sakura" that was made to be by Naruto's side will win in the end.

Kishi not being able to write a good romance is a red herring. Don't believe it.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's not over, not by a long shot. We just have to have faith in Kishi and his story. I think that with all of the struggles for our hero, he deserves a happy ending. Like Kishi himself said, "keep faith and follow through to the end and you won't be disappointed."

Sorry for the long post! Let me know if I'm on the right track.

for only posting once you know your stuff

JG.... lurk less, post more. KKthx.



... though perhaps I should follow my own advice sometimes.

i should post more often too

Edited by Merger Knight, 31 October 2009 - 07:33 PM.

[RedDelicious]

If Sakura actually still has feelings for Sasuke, somebody needs to ask her this: "Why do you love Sasuke?"

I bet she can't find a good answer to this.

She says, "and I was crazy to ever love him", which sorta answers your question.

I think people (in general) are being over-literal with Sakura's statement, "I said I don't care about Sasuke anymore." The implication (based on the rest of the conversation so far) is "care" --> "care romantically", not "care" --> "any feelings at all".

Her confession also points out that she gradually fell in love with Naruto, just like she gradually fell out of love with Sasuke. None of this was sudden. (When did she get the "aha" moment that she was in love with Naruto? Maybe when Sai told her that Naruto was in love with her?)

Edited by RedDelicious, 31 October 2009 - 07:34 PM.

[Cloud]

Again, people. Stop quoting long posts. It strains other people's bandwidth and really shoves the page down more.

If you're gonna do it, use the spoiler tags.

[Merger Knight]

When did she get the "aha" moment that she was in love with Naruto?

i think it was when Yamato told her when she was tryng to heal him maybe, but maybe she idn't want to admit it out load yet

[Froot]

A little theory dawned on me recently and I've been wanting to share it. I'm not sure if it's been covered or not.

Sakura's confession was pitiful. Absolutely horrid.

But she's a main character. If it's acknowledged in the manga as being ''awful and terrible,'' then, being such an important character, Sakura will have to make it better. Character development, right? No main character has a confession that just flops like Sakura's did and then never gets resolution.

That said, I believe Sakura will get a second chance. No way in hell are things going to end with that.

It's like never having Naruto and Sasuke fight again, but rather just leaving it as it was with Naruto, the main character, beaten.

Therefore, we can look forward to a much better confession from Sakura to Naruto.

[Manda]

Just wanted to pop up in here and say keep up with the good posts, guys!

I've been reading peoples posts not only on NF (I'm most active there), but both in here and in the spoiler thread too, and I have to say that it's really good that people are starting to be optimistic about this chapter. What we definitely need is optimism right now.

I'm actually also one of those people who believe that this chapter was good for NaruSaku. I don't want to make another giant post because I already made my thoughts know pretty well on the NaruSaku FC over on NF (you can just refer to that link that Nick compiled consisting of everyone's posts on the chapter. My posts are there too.), but I'll just keep this short: this definitely doesn't mark the end of NS like how the opposite fandoms are claiming. We still have a long way to go and even more NaruSaku interaction to come, and I'm positive that everything will turn out well in our favor.

In the meantime, keep the NS love strong!

[Ani]

I agree with Manda. Just remember, this isn't the confession. Not in my opinion, anyway. I'm guessing there will be one at the end of the manga, where they both profess their love again and it will be the right way. Once they meet up with Sasuke, it will be clear how she feels about the two of them.

This is a stepping stone for NaruSaku. They need to be more honest with each other, even if it means hurting the other. They worry so much about the other's feelings and forget their own, like Naruto not confessing to her or Sakura lying about Sasuke meaning nothing to her. I'm pretty positive myself about the chapter.

Looking forward to next week.

[Miss Soupy]

I agree. It's not the real confession. The point of the whole thing was to reveal fault in Sakura, and perhaps a little fault in Naruto. This is extremely important to their relationship. Once their problems are revealed, the characters can grow from here, and that's exactly what we want to happen. We want Naruto and Sakura to be true to each other. Once all of their problems are flushed out, they can rebuild their relationship and it will be a stronger bond than before.

[ciardha]

Sakura did lie on purpose, though.

Nope, again Naruto tells you right in the chapter Sakura is deluding herself, that she intellectually believes what she says, but she is repressing what her heart still feels. Yes, that is exactly what Naruto is angry about Sakura unconsciously lying. The very thing Naruto is doing to himself even more so about Sasuke, the very thing he is doing by denying he's noticed how much Sakura's feelings have changed for him.

His first reaction when she just said I love you was a blush and surprised joy and wanting to hear it again. Sakura's nonverbals- the modest half eyes closed sideways upward glance with a blush shows as well this is the truth. (It's a very typical manga confession position and Kishimoto has used it before, even with Sakura) It is only when Sakura says she lost any feeling she had for Sasuke that his face shows doubt.

Naruto is being kind of a self-righteous ass and definitely being a hypocrite. He's lied to himself about Sasuke as well, and convinced Sakura to continue to lie to herself about Sasuke. She has faced the reality about Sasuke far more than Naruto. She is farther from Sasuke than Naruto is, because she has at least intellectually faced the reality. Naruto is still lying to himself intellectually and emotionally about Sasuke, he's lying to himself about not noticing Sakura's feelings- we saw him notice it (more than once! Outright gets hacked off at Sai for interrupting a romantic moment between himself and Sakura in 343) But oh now when he's being Mr. self-righteous hypocrite he pretends like this is some complete sudden 180 from Sakura. Bull! He just chooses to lie to himself because he's got another annoying part 2 development- a martyr's complex when it comes to emotional bonds. It something that could easily slip into Sasuke's or Nagato's attitude about his level of pain being the worse of anyone ever...

Ugh. Gaara, despite having a far worse childhood than Naruto has gone a lot further- no martyr's complex from him. He was equally astounded by his village's embrace of him as a hero, but he's maturely accepted it well, without getting an ego. Gaara was not wanting to kill Sasuke either at first, but Temari made a shorthand version of Shikamaru's words to Sakura and Gaara, like Sakura, understood it was intellectually the truth.

At this point I'm kind of feeling a bit that Naruto needs to get a real rival for Sakura's affections- his deliberate pretending he never noticed her feelings before was really obnxious. then acting like a self righteous hypocrite on top of that.

I'd like to see Gaara step in and gently lecture Naruto about how he's lying to himself by this behavior. Then say to Sakura how her caring nature for others had touched a part of him even when he was crazy with hatred, and that if Naruto chooses to reject her over an action that actually came from her heart, then he is now free to speak his feelings for her.

Heh, Sakura would be so stunned, but wouldn't freak out like when Lee made his confession back in part 1. If Naruto had a real but mature and polite rival, instead the fake rivalry with his illusion of Sasuke it would give him the clue-by-four he needs to actually notice how Sakura isn't the Sasuke fangirl his martyr's complex makes him lie to himself and believe. I'd love to see Sakura respond to Gaara "I'm sorry, but I love Naruto too much to say yes to you."

Bet Gaara would smile gently back and say "I know."

[Miss Soupy]

@Ciardha


We were shown Sakura's resolve quite clearly through Lee and Kiba, we were shown further proof of her resolve when she asked the rookies not to interfere. She had a plan, her plan was to act like she was fine with giving up on Sasuke because in her mind it was the right thing to do. There is nothing that indicates she didn't realize she was still attached to Sasuke. She cried over him but a few chapters ago, could she honestly not understand why? Give Sakura a little bit more credit than that. The only difference between then and now is that she has had to accept Sasuke for the criminal that he is and must do something about it. You said she is repressing what her heart feels, which is very true, but the fact that she HAS to repress it indicates she knows that feeling is there. You don't repress what you are not aware of.

Mm, interesting that you dislike any attack on Sakura but you have no problem attacking Naruto, even if Naruto is not the one primarily at fault in this chapter. He deserves a little blame, but for the most part this chapter was written to show how incorrect Sakura was. (that would be why there is a lot of Sakura hate right now, it is obvious she was at fault) Yeah she is being treated unfairly, but a lot of it comes from people who can't wait to jump on her character anyways.

[Enermil]

You are forgiving a very important keyplot to the Sasuke situation Ciardha. Killing Sasuke is not the solution.

Kishimoto is following like George Lucas Campbell path of the Hero of a Thousand Faces where the hero is confronted with a thougth choice. Killing a dear corrupted person or choose to find and bring that tiny spark of goodnes that remains.

The current situation in the manga with everyone wanting to kill Sasuke and Naruto stubornly chosing to not follow that path resembles Luke choice of not killing Vader in Return of the Jedi. Obi-Wan and Yoda were both firmly believers of killing Vader. Even Leia couldn´t understand Luke´s point. In the end he was provent rigth and so will happen with Naruto.

Edited by Enermil, 31 October 2009 - 10:22 PM.

[catsi563]

Im also of that beleif as well in regards to sasuke.

I still maintain that Karin is going to have a major and very suprising impact on Sasuke that no one realizes. I even think its a type of impact that Madara will not realzie being to arrogant and dismissing it as nothing.

combined with Narutos unfalteirng determination and his promise to Nagato and Jiraiya he will redeem sasuke in some fashion.

the key in this chapter is going to be whether Naruto can trully bring himself to open up to sakura. while im not going to lump naruto in the self righteous Jerk category Ciardha has. Im not going to say hes not entirely blameless either.

Naruto has evidnced a very self righteous streak in the story. He seems to set things in stone and then doesnt allow any change for those things untill it is driven through his skull with a rasengan and jackhammer.

he saw sasuke as a friend adn teamate. This was a set belief for him. Thus he was shocked when Sasuke deliberately tried to kill him.

He knows ((beleives)) that Sakura is in lvoe with Sasuke, thus he may be stuck on that and its going to take Sakura crakcing his skull with her fist to drive home that , that is not the way things are anymore.

this is a part of growing up that Naruto still has to do. Not so much compromsie in his beliefs. but learn that things and people change, and just because you spout believe it all the time doesnt make it so.

[Hak]

Just wanted to pop up in here and say keep up with the good posts, guys!

I've been reading peoples posts not only on NF (I'm most active there), but both in here and in the spoiler thread too, and I have to say that it's really good that people are starting to be optimistic about this chapter. What we definitely need is optimism right now.

I'm actually also one of those people who believe that this chapter was good for NaruSaku. I don't want to make another giant post because I already made my thoughts know pretty well on the NaruSaku FC over on NF (you can just refer to that link that Nick compiled consisting of everyone's posts on the chapter. My posts are there too.), but I'll just keep this short: this definitely doesn't mark the end of NS like how the opposite fandoms are claiming. We still have a long way to go and even more NaruSaku interaction to come, and I'm positive that everything will turn out well in our favor.

In the meantime, keep the NS love strong!

I agree with Manda. Just remember, this isn't the confession. Not in my opinion, anyway. I'm guessing there will be one at the end of the manga, where they both profess their love again and it will be the right way. Once they meet up with Sasuke, it will be clear how she feels about the two of them.

This is a stepping stone for NaruSaku. They need to be more honest with each other, even if it means hurting the other. They worry so much about the other's feelings and forget their own, like Naruto not confessing to her or Sakura lying about Sasuke meaning nothing to her. I'm pretty positive myself about the chapter.

Looking forward to next week.

I'm having the same thought as these two. I think that they are both too insecure and hardheaded (Naruto for sure!) to speak their minds about the true emotions they are feelings, so they will need an argument to clean the air and make their feelings really known and accepted by the other!
Like Ani said this is the stepping stone for NaruSaku.

[Mik3]

You are forgiving a very important keyplot to the Sasuke situation Ciardha. Killing Sasuke is not the solution.

Kishimoto is following like George Lucas Campbell path of the Hero of a Thousand Faces where the hero is confronted with a thougth choice. Killing a dear corrupted person or choose to find and bring that tiny spark of goodnes that remains.

The current situation in the manga with everyone wanting to kill Sasuke and Naruto stubornly chosing to not follow that path resembles Luke choice of not killing Vader in Return of the Jedi. Obi-Wan and Yoda were both firmly believers of killing Vader. Even Leia couldn´t understand Luke´s point. In the end he was provent rigth and so will happen with Naruto.

Oh for sure. And neither Naruto or Sakura really believe he is beyond saving. Now Naruto still thinks Sakura is in love with sasuke for good reason. Those flashbacks he had reminding him. I don/t think hes much of a hypocrite, he knows sasuke is doing bad, he just believes he can bring him back and thats it.



And we keep Gaara out of this? Hes not exactly the guy I'd make the measuring stick for the male romantic response.

[Codus N]

@ciardha:

I completely agree 100% with your post!! I'm one of the firm believers that the sand siblings will play a role in all this. Gaara would man up Naruto & make him see reality, while Temari would help Sakura sort out her feelings. (in fact, I sort of hope if this does happen, it will also help Shikatema a bit forward )

[JG111580]

Here's another way of looking at recent events.

Kishi may be unpredictable yes, but random...NO WAY!

In the past he has admitted to having the overall plot for the story worked out. However, he also makes spontaneous minor adjustments in the story from week to week to make it flow better (or throw a curve ball to readers). He may have done that in this case because he wants to remain as unpredictable as Naruto himself. I think that while he is covertly building the future of NaruSaku, he is also adding realism and tension to the relationship. To those who ship other pairings, this is a light in the darkness because of all of the development of NaruSaku in Part 2. For us, it casts a shadow of doubt in our minds and makes us question whether we truely understand the story as well as we think we do. But if you really think about it, something had to happen shake up Naruto and Sakura and force some adjustments to the way that they view each other. If Kishi hadn't done this, Naruto and Sakura may have circled each other emotionally for the rest of their lives (like Jiraya and Tsunade) with Sauske in the center keeping them apart. Now Kishi has broken them out of that rut and they both have to come to terms with how their lives, attitudes, and feelings have progessed. While they have unquestionalbley grown closer in Part 2, they have hidden their feelings to protect each other and avoid tension between them. Now all of the things that have been left unsaid are in the open and must be confronted. Afterall, the only time in the entire manga that Naruto has been outwardly unhappy with Sakura, up to this point, was when she tried to stop him from from fighting Sauske on the hospital roof. Sakura is doing this again here by trying to force herself between them. Naruto's temper may make things ugly for awhile as he discovers what is truely happening. However, he will not simply stop loving Sakura (I have no doubts about this). Kishi strikes me as the type that likes to make things darkest before the dawn (both in battles and love). So get ready to weather the adolescent emotional tempest that Naruto and Sakura could put us through. If we can make it through, Kishi will move forward to where he has had this story heading all along, and I think that's right where we want to be.

[Mik3]

@ciardha:

I completely agree 100% with your post!! I'm one of the firm believers that the sand siblings will play a role in all this. Gaara would man up Naruto & make him see reality, while Temari would help Sakura sort out her feelings. (in fact, I sort of hope if this does happen, it will also help Shikatema a bit forward )

Sounds Fanficish. Theres a war going on and Gaara is going to be solely involved wit that

[nekovi]

Danzou left the meeting on the run and one of the mizukage guards follow him, now Fuu placed some traps but i guess its some tecnique from yamanaka clan that he needs to leave his body...about the eye danzou just want back what is form konoha the other dudes byakugan eye...

uwah, thankies