549 replies to this topic

[db84x]

@ rocci

Naruto still made money until now (anime, spin-off and etc.), so Kishi can take retirement not bad for manga which already out of gas long time ago.  While OP have plot device to avoid run out gas.

 

@ NeonRanger

Reality in manga/anime is hurt isn't it ? Finding seinen is hard now since most of manga aimed to kid and teen. 

[TouKen4Life3g]

It's more like in general is hard to find. Well not that much but many are playing safe by doing the same trope over and over again. To make things worse, there are people that accept it, so it's not like originality can come somewhere because they can easily accept "been there, done that," concept. It's like once we got One Piece, done, no more original idea.

Though there was a year when WSJ got like over 12 cancelled series in a year. Serve them right to bring in works that's done to death.

Edited by TouKen4Life3g, 25 February 2016 - 12:21 PM.

[NeonRanger]

If you mean everyone as in "the small minority that is too stupid to know what real love is and sadly are the most vocal of the groups" then yeah....I guess they do.

And then I no longer question why 50 shades of Grey is considered a  "good romance story" despite mostly everyone saying "it is just abuse."

 

And do see NH as popular. It might not be popular in Japan, but it is extremely popular in the West. Look at CC2 and all the NH fanservice that was given in the game. Than you have SNS that is the top ship not only in Japan, but internationally, and look at the extra stuff they have. If it wasn't popular or gaining interest, the would have stopped and focus on their money makers, which is SNS. And they are, but they are making just as much NH fanservice as well. Hinata might not sell well, but she sells. The Last was a gamble, but she's the first secondary character to ever reach popularity to the point where a movie was dedicated towards her and NH. It was a glob in JP but not internationally, especially in the US. It was the first Naruto movie to surpass over half a million in revenue compared to other in America. Before that was RtN with only 50,000. The Last US success might have to do with being the last movie, but during premieres, some theaters were promoting a lot of NH merchandise, so the intended audience was clear. 

 

Than you have Bolt with overall success, all because of SNS. Here, it is the first and only Naruto movie to reach close to a million in revenue surpassing The Last. 

 

Sasuke, Naruto, Hinata, and Itachi make it to almost everyone's top five favorites.

 

Then you have Sakura, who, imo, manage to become a secondary in only a year. Sakura is literally the most hated character, who manages to surpass even the villains with the amount of haters. Go to NF, literally every thread about which character should have died, least favorite, most hated, most pointless in the manga...Sakura ends up #2 or #3 on every other person's list. You have threads dedicated on Naruto and Sasuke's stupidity (and other characters) and who's better than who, while threads made for Sakura are about why is she even in the manga or dead yet. You have Sakura hate clubs that has more followers than pro Sakura, more rants/ hate from YTbrs compared to any other character, and being a Sakura fan overall is a task in any Naruto/ anime forum, let alone a NS fan. 

 

And if noticed, Sakura stopped selling. She sells, but now you see her promoted with Team 7 when before she was promoted as an independent character, like the promotions from RtN. Now, it's only SNS and their two children Bolt and Sarada. And even Hinata/ Himawari and ShikaTema is being promoted more than Sakura.  In CC2 NNS4, it is Hinata first time being shown as the main cast, with fillers of her saving Naruto from death, yet for Sakura every significant moment of her was removed. The hate was majority enough to reach Kishi where a little girl herself told him how much she hates Sakura.

 

What I'm saying is that even if NH was the minority, it's nothing compared to the majority of Sakura hate. He was left either pleasing the NH minority or pissing off the anti-Sakura majority. I'm even convinced that the anti-Sakura got to him and made him realize that Sakura wasn't worth it anymore. Point is that he was pushed into a corner and SNS/ NH were the answer.  

[rocci]

@db
I'm talking about quality not popularity.
Op has oda who has creative story, characterization, and world building.
so you're wrong that op relied on plot device in order to not running out of gas.

I have the question, do you really think kishi is a genius and naruto is a masterpiece?

[Catra]

Do you? Because I don't

They're just pretty much vocal because they "won" but people who see how poorly done that pairing was exist

anyone with half a brain knows that no part of the fandom won. nh are the genie pigs while ss pfff hahahaha. oh boy xD

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

And with that the bar has been lowered and the standards shot..

 

 

Truth be told, I can look at the Naruto endings and the follow up chapters in a lot of ways, but the way Naruto is as a person is that Naruto is really REALLY stupid and the adults are even dumber for following his views. Sasuke, as much as I hated him, had very good points and was actually living in a truth that even stands today. Naruto however was too much a dream and kind of a brat if he didn't get his way. If you didn't follow him, he didn't care about you. Now originally you could argue against all this, but seeing how the ending played out, this is actually how I see it all now.

Naruto, in the time he is now, is actually an extremely depressed man because all his dreams were shot. He wanted Sasuke to stay in the village, but realized he can't force him to do anything. This is why Naruto acts like a happy puppy when Sasuke comes home as little as he does. He only got with Hinata, not because he loves her, but out pity and realizing that he couldn't have Sakura. You can even see this when he sees Sakura talk to Salad and that look on his face is just screaming with regret. Like "I wish that is my family instead of the kitten I have now." maybe this is why he likes Salad to much. He is vicariously pretending to be her father and pretending Sakura is his wife. This would explain why he is much kinder and loving towards Salad. It could have to do with Sasuke too, but I don't think that is simply because of that one panel I mentioned.

This all easily explains alot with why he is never home, why he is always working, why he looks so miserable all the time. Why does Hinata do nothing for him? Because he really doesn't want this fate. It was not his dream. He though he was going to be this great Hokage, but all he is is a paper pusher. He thought he was going to get the girl of his dream, but now he is stuck with the bimbo he never cared about. People don't understand that NARUTO IS MISERABLE. "Well, he achieved his dreams." No, he didn't The dude had 5 dreams in his life and maybe only 1 of them came true. Okay 2, if you count him becoming Hokage, but it is not exactly that great dream job now is it?

That is the sad part about it all and nobody realizes it. Naruto is a tragic love story with fates worse than death. I can't speak for the other Konoha 11, but still. Neji is probably the most tragic of them all. He died as he lived...a slave to main branch giving it all up so she can have it all and Hinata didn't even respect that. "Oh well, people die...as long as I got my Naruto-kun."

-sigh-

As for the HotD. Tell me about it. Rei is just a walking stereotype of "I am a women. I am always the victim...every has to pity me and do what I say." Takashi especially is just this whipping boy for her that doesn't appear she loves at all. Meanwhile Saeko sits here and say "I am willing to do anything to save him. Even if means being what it means to be a women to a man" or sex and she actually loves him because he accepted her for who she is. She thinks of herself a monster. Takashi accepted, but also cared about her. I guess one could argue Takashi only sees her as an asset, but nothing a little development could prove otherwise. It is so easily to put Saeko and Takashi together and have them be an awesome couple. Rei and Takashi however....all she does is kitten and blame Takashi for her problems when in reality it is HER that had the problem.

 

Yeah, I was thinking that, aside from underestimating the Hokage job (even though he's clearly not doing anything anywhere nearly as big as the previous Kages sans Kakashi did), Naruto is also emotionally exhausted (reflected physically too) by having to create and maintain a new mask; this time one made to look like the father of a "happy, loving family" with Hinata when he clearly doesn't and that he spends so much time at the office and sends Kage Bunshin to deal with the family side of things just so he can have the chance to take off that mask (through cup ramen and sake). You'd think that Shikamaru, being the "genius" he is, would have been able to easily see how miserable Naruto is, but then again, he was one of the people who guilt-tripped him into the relationship to begin with, just like he tried to do with Boruto with the whole "your father and I are busy people" crap despite being the one right there with his own son...

As for HotD, there's also the idea that Rei thinks she knows precisely how Hisashi would act, that it would always be the right thing (compared to Takashi) even though the whole thing is a situation no one has been in before. For all she knows, Hisashi could have been worse than Takashi in the situations they were in.

[James S Cassidy]

 

And do see NH as popular. It might not be popular in Japan, but it is extremely popular in the West. Look at CC2 and all the NH fanservice that was given in the game. Than you have SNS that is the top ship not only in Japan, but internationally, and look at the extra stuff they have. If it wasn't popular or gaining interest, the would have stopped and focus on their money makers, which is SNS. And they are, but they are making just as much NH fanservice as well. Hinata might not sell well, but she sells. The Last was a gamble, but she's the first secondary character to ever reach popularity to the point where a movie was dedicated towards her and NH. It was a glob in JP but not internationally, especially in the US. It was the first Naruto movie to surpass over half a million in revenue compared to other in America. Before that was RtN with only 50,000. The Last US success might have to do with being the last movie, but during premieres, some theaters were promoting a lot of NH merchandise, so the intended audience was clear. 

 

Than you have Bolt with overall success, all because of SNS. Here, it is the first and only Naruto movie to reach close to a million in revenue surpassing The Last. 

 

Sasuke, Naruto, Hinata, and Itachi make it to almost everyone's top five favorites.

 

Then you have Sakura, who, imo, manage to become a secondary in only a year. Sakura is literally the most hated character, who manages to surpass even the villains with the amount of haters. Go to NF, literally every thread about which character should have died, least favorite, most hated, most pointless in the manga...Sakura ends up #2 or #3 on every other person's list. You have threads dedicated on Naruto and Sasuke's stupidity (and other characters) and who's better than who, while threads made for Sakura are about why is she even in the manga or dead yet. You have Sakura hate clubs that has more followers than pro Sakura, more rants/ hate from YTbrs compared to any other character, and being a Sakura fan overall is a task in any Naruto/ anime forum, let alone a NS fan. 

 

And if noticed, Sakura stopped selling. She sells, but now you see her promoted with Team 7 when before she was promoted as an independent character, like the promotions from RtN. Now, it's only SNS and their two children Bolt and Sarada. And even Hinata/ Himawari and ShikaTema is being promoted more than Sakura.  In CC2 NNS4, it is Hinata first time being shown as the main cast, with fillers of her saving Naruto from death, yet for Sakura every significant moment of her was removed. The hate was majority enough to reach Kishi where a little girl herself told him how much she hates Sakura.

 

What I'm saying is that even if NH was the minority, it's nothing compared to the majority of Sakura hate. He was left either pleasing the NH minority or pissing off the anti-Sakura majority. I'm even convinced that the anti-Sakura got to him and made him realize that Sakura wasn't worth it anymore. Point is that he was pushed into a corner and SNS/ NH were the answer.  

How many other characters are the same and yet the writer/author sticks to their guns? No matter the pressure. No matter the time. This is what Oda said. While he also gets pressured by fans to do something, he tells then "This is my story and while I appreciate your love for my series...I have to do it my way." Whether he makes it work or not, that is what I have to respect.

But here is the thing. All the bull that people keep screaming of "respecting the authors decisions" or "It is HIS story, not yours," you just proved to me that these words are meaningless and are the only excuses for the pro-enders to have. They won;t admit that THEY pressured this all to happen. The Sakura hate is massive or even worse despite Kishimoto giving them EXACTLY WHAT THEY WANTED apparently. "We want Sakura to get with Sasuke." Which happened, but even this hasn't changed the fans outlook of her. In fact, I would dare say that making NS canon would have been a far better outcome for her and actually got rid of some of the anti-Sakura haters. Maybe not all of them, but changing even just a quarter of them would have been better than increasing the number of haters ten fold.

You can't change everyone, but an improvement is an improvement. Instead, Kishimoto made everyone take ten steps back and that is what has happened to the Naruto series. You missed that very important detail. The hate for ALL the characters has increased, not decreased despite Kishimoto giving them exactly what they wanted. Just think about that for a second. Anti-Naruto, Anti-Sasuke, Anti-Sakura, and Anti-Hinata....anti-everything has increased ten fold since the Naruto the Last movie has been released. 

"Who knew there were so many Manderin fans out there? And somehow you manged to tick ALL of them off."
-Superman comments to Iron Man 3. (justsomerandomguy)
 

The love for the series of Naruto is not growing, it's decreasing. The hate is increasing. Day by day the hate is increasing and the only ones who still buy into the stuff are the fans who are so radical and in such denial in their views they make up the story with their own little world. Most, if not all, didn't even see. watch, or pay attention to anything beyond Chapter 700. (Hell, I even saw posts of people so delusional they tried to convince me that Naruto confusing Hinata's love for him as the same as his love for ramen as a compliment than an insult.)

NH may be popular, but that does not mean the series is less hated. Especially when I see a good portion of western NH and SS fans say "This series sucks."

As for money making....well, then I guess Micheal Bay is one of the greatest directors of all time since he is a billion dollar industry with just the transformers movies alone. No matter how bad they are or how many people "hate him" as a director. "I make that dollor yall." -Bay on ERB.

Naruto will not be remembered for its box office hits or for it's great story. I mean, only 1 year has passed and NO ONE even remembers the real story of Naruto because we have been fed so much kitten that the real story has been lost in the garbage. The only thing people will remember Naruto for now....is the pairing wars....and that is it. Nothing else matters to the story. Will people remember the story of a boy who overcame diversity? Nope, only that the boy pity kittened a big boobed bimbo. That is all they will remember.

And the story deserves that fate.
 

As for HotD, there's also the idea that Rei thinks she knows precisely how Hisashi would act, that it would always be the right thing (compared to Takashi) even though the whole thing is a situation no one has been in before. For all she knows, Hisashi could have been worse than Takashi in the situations they were in.

 

Ugh...I hate Rei so much....I really really do,





 

Edited by James S Cassidy, 26 February 2016 - 08:04 AM.

[db84x]

@ TouKen

Courting kid and preteen is hard work but they are the biggest costumer base for manga.

 

@ rocci

Quality is relative for every person but one thing for sure that Naruto is number 4 best selling manga all time. And about OP, Oda often reset story when Luffy move to other island so the main story can be slowed and planned while mass fed by filler chapter.  

 

@ James

Neon speak the truth since in manga industry especially on shonen pleasing mass is really important thing.

Edited by db84x, 26 February 2016 - 10:56 AM.

[Catra]

the money argument "all bad movies make money!" is used for even good movies like man of steel and it disgusts me. they literally categorize one of the best if not the best superman movie with the likes of transformers, 50 shades, and twilight. people are indeed stupid *facepalm*

[NeonRanger]

@James: Agree, with exceptions on the character hate. I don't know about you, but I never seen how huge the amount of Sasuke apologists until The Last. I really don't understand the whole anti-Leaf/ pro-Uchiha thing, especially when most, specially SNS fans, believe that Sasuke should have been Hokage or took charge of the village. On Tumblr, I've seen more pro Sasuke urls than Naruto. I'm aware of the growing hate, but when it comes to the hate on characters like Sakura, most of the fandom blames the character. But when it comes to characters like Sasuke, most blame Kishi. The hate is growing and there, but are being addressed very differently.

And the Naruto fandom is sadly the only fandom where people care more about the ships than plot. So I don't think people care about about the story at all since it became more popular.

[Emb3rs]

I never actually read the manga considering how early Naruto was on my now long list of anime, but i came to that same realization throughout the anime. Unfortunately there are more people out there who accept this conclusion rather then question it like us few. Its to bad that a manga/anime with good potential got trashed as it grew more popular but it seems that its not changing. With Boruto on its way, we are going to see more of the same in my opinion. I will watch it even despite my disappointment with Naruto because now that I've had a chance to discover new anime i can say that its absolutely difficult to find a satisfying anime or manga. I honestly cant say how many anime Ive gone through since i kicked off of Naruto last year in November but what i can say is that very few have gone about with a story which i can agree upon. So Boruto is just going to be added to my list and i hope that i can enjoy at least some parts like i did with Naruto despite its bad progression.

Edited by Emb3rs, 26 February 2016 - 08:35 PM.

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

@James: Agree, with exceptions on the character hate. I don't know about you, but I never seen how huge the amount of Sasuke apologists until The Last. I really don't understand the whole anti-Leaf/ pro-Uchiha thing, especially when most, specially SNS fans, believe that Sasuke should have been Hokage or took charge of the village. On Tumblr, I've seen more pro Sasuke urls than Naruto. I'm aware of the growing hate, but when it comes to the hate on characters like Sakura, most of the fandom blames the character. But when it comes to characters like Sasuke, most blame Kishi. The hate is growing and there, but are being addressed very differently.

And the Naruto fandom is sadly the only fandom where people care more about the ships than plot. So I don't think people care about about the story at all since it became more popular.

I can understand that both sides bear responsibility for what happened (as I brought up before, I really think Tobirama is given more hate than he deserves while those people seem to act like the Uchiha did absolutely nothing wrong), but anyone who thinks Sasuke should have been Hokage of all things are idiots...

[BlackBird19]

@ db84x

No one is saying that Naruto isn't a success but it's numbers are just that, numbers. Currently it's not and I don't think will ever be remembered fondly by all. What it may be remembered for is having one of the most divided and toxic fan-bases anyone has ever heard of. Simply due to the manga's failure in execution and decline in quality.

 

Also that wiki link you post so much actually shows 7 mangas that outsell or out sold Naruto per volume, meaning had Naruto been of better quality it actually would've sold better.   

[Bail o' Lies]

I can understand that both sides bear responsibility for what happened (as I brought up before, I really think Tobirama is given more hate than he deserves while those people seem to act like the Uchiha did absolutely nothing wrong), but anyone who thinks Sasuke should have been Hokage of all things are idiots...

From what I've seen over the years SNS and SS at it core are the same. They both fantasize about having sex with sasuke or in the case of the yaoi fangirl fantasize about him and another hot guy having sex.  And because of their obsessive love for Sasuke they are willing to overlook any problem with the character, anything he says, or any action he takes. Sasuke is basically hinata with plot relevance. So because of their worship of him and the fact that they hate the ending. They think his idea is actually a good idea. When in reality, he is a monster.

 

What Sasuke's revolution plan was is that he would kill the kages then force the world to submit to him. Obviously this would've led to people revolting against him. He would respond using the tailed beast eventually probably gotten desperate and decided to enact the eye of the moon plan. Which is the right thing now since he's doing it this time.

 

Naruto's plan was reform. That was his policy he wanted to enact, which was the right course of action ...it was just the fact the ending makes him a failure who has done nothing. That makes people think that Sasuke's plan looked good in comparison.

Edited by Bail o' Lies, 27 February 2016 - 05:40 AM.

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

From what I've seen over the years SNS and SS at it core are the same. They both fantasize about having sex with sasuke or in the case of the yaoi fangirl fantasize about him and another hot guy having sex.  And because of their obsessive love for Sasuke they are willing to over look any problem with the character or anything he says or any action he takes. Sasuke is basically hinata with plot relevance. So because of their worship of him and the fact that they hate the ending. They think his idea is actually a good idea. When in reality he is a monster.

 

What Sasuke's revolution plan was is that he would kill the kages then force the world to submit to him. Obviously this would've led to people revolting against him. He would respond using the tailed beast eventually probably gotten desperate and decided to enact the eye of the moon plan. Which is the right thing now since he's doing it this time.

 

Naruto's plan was reform. That was his policy he wanted to enact, which was the right course of action ...it was just the fact the ending makes him a failure who has done nothing. That makes people think that Sasuke's plan looked good in comparison.

Well, in general, Sasuke wasn't completely without good points. The problem was that his plan to change things was the flawed and insane part. He was basically going to pull a Lelouch-style move where he would make the entire world hate him, forcing them to remain united in the faced of a common "foe" ala Obito/Kabuto/Madara/Kaguya, then he would slip away to allow peace to continue and then when that peace looked like it was going to end, he would re-appear and cause more trouble to keep them united and just keep rinsing and repeating. Sasuke clearly didn't think the "true" peace that Naruto wanted was possible (and, let's face it, as long as humanity has free will and individualism, chances are there never will be such a thing, at least not for long, hence why Madara's Moon's Eye Plan, while wrong, was at least understandable) and so was settling for a false peace.

The other problem, one that Naruto also had, is that neither he nor Naruto, despite all of their power, are immortal. They will die eventually whether it be in battle (irony) or simply old age (even the Rikudo Sennin with the Jubi and the Rinnegan wasn't immortal) and then who will be around to maintain the peace? I mean, they can't exactly guarantee any successor(s) will carry on their will to the letter or even pervert their ideals in order to take power for themselves or something. And when one thinks about it like that, wouldn't either side simply be a false peace in the long run in that, with Naruto, most people simply would "endure" the peace because they're just too afraid to speak against him because of his power?

[Catra]

naruto = worst political leader ever

[db84x]

@ BlackBird19

Your question already answered by Neon, current Naruto fandom love the story and willing spend money for it since purge fanon fandom from main community proceed with ease.  How much money which can produced its only matter for Shuheisa now.  

 

@ Half

This is manga for children and shipper, so what you expect from it ?

Edited by db84x, 27 February 2016 - 07:21 AM.

[BlackBird19]

@db84x

I never asked you a question. I just pointed out that the decline in quality has hurt and will continue to hurt the Naruto franchise's legacy for a long time coming. It held it back from greater success. If you don't agree that's your choice.

 

However here is a question; you do understand that a story isn't supposed to draw fans in then alienate a large portion of them later on right? Does that honestly make sense to you? I mean do you understand what your saying? You make it sound like Kishi only wanted a certain type of fan, and that's not just ridiculous but a rather naïve theory your offering. He would want as many fans as possible to enjoy his story, that's what every author hopes for and every publisher looks for no matter what part of the world they're from. He just wasn't a good enough author to pull that off.

 

The manga's execution caused the fan-base to splinter and inadvertently drove a number of fans away well before it ever ended. Then later drove another section of fans away with the ending. Which came about from a decision to extend the franchise. Now, what they are doing is pandering to the fan-base they have left. They tried NH with the Last and got poor reviews, so they went back to trolling the pairings in the gaiden and SNS (the only pair Kishi actually cares about and can work with) in the Boruto movie and got better results. So that's where Naruto stands now, waiting to see if the next generation with it's new artist and new author can stand on their own.

 

.

[db84x]

@ BlackBird19

Since Naruto aimed for children, so quality won't matter as long it cool.  Its still attractive for children and adult shipper (NH, SS & SNS), I understand that some of NS still angry for total uproot every NS foundation, but just like other East Asian powerful people in past he just eliminate future trouble until the root.

Edited by db84x, 27 February 2016 - 09:43 AM.

[James S Cassidy]

@James: Agree, with exceptions on the character hate. I don't know about you, but I never seen how huge the amount of Sasuke apologists until The Last. I really don't understand the whole anti-Leaf/ pro-Uchiha thing, especially when most, specially SNS fans, believe that Sasuke should have been Hokage or took charge of the village. On Tumblr, I've seen more pro Sasuke urls than Naruto. I'm aware of the growing hate, but when it comes to the hate on characters like Sakura, most of the fandom blames the character. But when it comes to characters like Sasuke, most blame Kishi. The hate is growing and there, but are being addressed very differently.

And the Naruto fandom is sadly the only fandom where people care more about the ships than plot. So I don't think people care about about the story at all since it became more popular.

Things are changing and not for the better. That's all that matters now. The fact that the more things go, the more people hate everything is the entire point. Sasuke hate? Give it time. Pretty soon, the hate will be so massive that the series will be unwanted and forgotten entirely.

 

@db84x

I never asked you a question. I just pointed out that the decline in quality has hurt and will continue to hurt the Naruto franchise's legacy for a long time coming. It held it back from greater success. If you don't agree that's your choice.

 

However here is a question; you do understand that a story isn't supposed to draw fans in then alienate a large portion of them later on right? Does that honestly make sense to you? I mean do you understand what your saying? You make it sound like Kishi only wanted a certain type of fan, and that's not just ridiculous but a rather naïve theory your offering. He would want as many fans as possible to enjoy his story, that's what every author hopes for and every publisher looks for no matter what part of the world they're from. He just wasn't a good enough author to pull that off.

 

The manga's execution caused the fan-base to splinter and inadvertently drove a number of fans away well before it ever ended. Then later drove another section of fans away with the ending. Which came about from a decision to extend the franchise. Now, what they are doing is pandering to the fan-base they have left. They tried NH with the Last and got poor reviews, so they went back to trolling the pairings in the gaiden and SNS (the only pair Kishi actually cares about and can work with) in the Boruto movie and got better results. So that's where Naruto stands now, waiting to see if the next generation with it's new artist and new author can stand on their own.

 

.

There is no point in talking to db84x. It's like talking to remedialaction. Whatever response you get, it will either be an excuse, an argument over semantics, or a confusion of the difference between opinion and fact. This is why i have basically ignored all responses.

All of these things...all of these opinions revolve around the idea that Kishimoto planned it. People keep thinking that Kishimoto was this great mastermind and how he planned everything, but even he admits himself that nothing was planned at all. The whole pairings, the story....hell, even the villains were not planned at all except for maybe Obito.

I think this is the problem people keep forgetting. Kishimoto is just not that greta of a writer and if not for Yahagi, his first editor, he wouldn't have made a successful manga at all.

 

Edited by James S Cassidy, 27 February 2016 - 10:33 AM.