438 replies to this topic

[Toby]

Naruto has millions of fans, so that gives room for loud extremists as with every popular fandom, and was part of their childhoods. There's always gonna be bias when it comes to an anime someone grew up with.

[Catra]

seriously uber hikari is the man cuz he tells it like it is. kingoflighting is SUCH a shameless pathetic madara fanboy and he admits this and is damn proud of it too.

[RedFaction]

I think the Sarada and Sakura flashback was nice.

Sakura takes care of her when she's sick, hugs her tightly when she's sad (over Sasuke's absence) and just acts cheerful ♥! The forehead poke is akin to a pat on the head- Unlike Sasuke/Itachi, it's not really a move to divert. Of course she'd wait for Sarada to grow up before talking about "sex" and she made her lunch afterwards. Sakura is motherly to Sarada.

 

Earlier Naruto was also nice to Sarada, they blushed at each other, they had a picnic together- Naruto sees Sarada's resemblance to Sasuke (his most important person) so he pays more attention to her than Bolt. Naruto pets Sarada's head.  Sarada thinks Naruto is fatherly.

 

Even now, he's trying to teach "love" to Sarada. While he says "time" is not a factor in bonds, that could also apply to himself. He never spent time with Sakura/Sarada, but right now he's loving Sarada and claims that as Hokage, she's family to him too.  He's still acting like Sarada's father. He's saying blood is nothing, bonds of love are. Which disregards Sasuke's parentage.

 

Kishimoto has given Sasuke NONE of that. Less bonding panels with Sarada than Naruto and Sakura had. And now, according to Naruto's words, his blood-relation isn't even a factor.

 

 

It's like NaruSaku parents for Sarada.

Doesn't matter if Sakura and Naruto are acting like the parents for Sarada, because I can guarantee you that Sasuke will be forgiven for not being around for Sarada or Sakura all these years and he'll be welcomed back like nothing happened.

 

By the end of this, Sarada will look up to Sasuke as her father, even though he was never around, and Kishi will make him out to be a model parent no matter what Sasuke does. Because the fact of the matter is in this series Sasuke cannot do any harm, it's always someone else's fault.

Edited by RedFaction, 19 June 2015 - 04:08 PM.

[Toby]

^He has to make Sasuke look good and reconcile everything for the Boruto movie. So. Yeah.

[Catra]

he likes sasuke cuz he looks the most asian while naruto looks american

[Namikaze Clan]

No, she was more suspicious of Sakura and Sasuke's relationship then. That's why she asked if they were even married. It wasn't until she found the picture that we actually saw her questioning whether Sakura was her mother.
wtf. How would that even be possible lmao.

If she was only in doubt of their relationship, why would she bring up the glasses.? In her mind if neither one of her parents wore glasses, then one of them isn't blood related to her

[Nate River]

I think this chapter is a nice exercise in what not to do as a writer:

Show don't Tell: This chapter is good crash course in this rule. It's like Kishimoto has been going out of his way to have Sakura and Sasuke call each other husband and wife. In addition, Sasuke's eye powers have diminished for some unknown reason only to come back when it's time to save his wife. Geez whiz, could they be more transparent?

It's a giant billboard saying they love and care for each other despite the author never really showing it one screen, well, ever. Because it's not obvious at all that they do based on their interactions, history etc. (it actually looks the opposite), he has to constantly tell the audience they care. It's contrived. It's terrible. We only know because he tells us not because he shows us.

All the observable behavior makes everyone looks like a giant turd, but it's okay because they really all care because the author says so. The problem with telling and not showing is on parade here.

It's made all the worse because why he is absentee is vague and poorly explained. Why Naruto doesn't know until lately? Dunno. Why they never tell Sarada and then lie about when the finds out? Dunno. Why Sasuke never so much as visits. Mission, but so non-specific they might as well have ignored it.

Sakura's reaction is bizarre and can only lead to the conclusion that no, they haven't kissed. Again, telling, not showing.


The sequel: There is no rule or anything, but I feel some stories allow for sequels while others don't. Save the world epics typically don't allow for good ones because there is not a lot left to explore, at least in a way that doesn't basically undo the previous story.

Gaiden feels like the later. Rocci and I had a brief discussion about why they are ninja. He said because it's a ninja manga. And that's basically true. This would be fine if ninja had some place, but they don't and so the whole generation becomes one just because. This is a sign that maybe this Gaiden shouldn't have been written as is the fact that so many people come across as flaming jackasses. As bad as the ending was, this has made everyone look so much worse.

[James S Cassidy]

I think this chapter is a nice exercise in what not to do as a writer:

Show don't Tell: This chapter is good crash course in this rule. It's like Kishimoto has been going out of his way to have Sakura and Sasuke call each other husband and wife. In addition, Sasuke's eye powers have diminished for some unknown reason only to come back when it's time to save his wife. Geez whiz, could they be more transparent?

It's a giant billboard saying they love and care for each other despite the author never really showing it one screen, well, ever. Because it's not obvious at all that they do based on their interactions, history etc. (it actually looks the opposite), he has to constantly tell the audience they care. It's contrived. It's terrible. We only know because he tells us not because he shows us.

All the observable behavior makes everyone looks like a giant turd, but it's okay because they really all care because the author says so. The problem with telling and not showing is on parade here.

It's made all the worse because why he is absentee is vague and poorly explained. Why Naruto doesn't know until lately? Dunno. Why they never tell Sarada and then lie about when the finds out? Dunno. Why Sasuke never so much as visits. Mission, but so non-specific they might as well have ignored it.

Sakura's reaction is bizarre and can only lead to the conclusion that no, they haven't kissed. Again, telling, not showing.


The sequel: There is no rule or anything, but I feel some stories allow for sequels while others don't. Save the world epics typically don't allow for good ones because there is not a lot left to explore, at least in a way that doesn't basically undo the previous story.

Gaiden feels like the later. Rocci and I had a brief discussion about why they are ninja. He said because it's a ninja manga. And that's basically true. This would be fine if ninja had some place, but they don't and so the whole generation becomes one just because. This is a sign that maybe this Gaiden shouldn't have been written as is the fact that so many people come across as flaming jackasses. As bad as the ending was, this has made everyone look so much worse.

This is why I truly feel Kishimoto just doesn't care and is just doing whatever now. When it could be obvious to show something important, he just bypasses it with weak excuses. When he has a chance to build something up, he destroys it even more.

[rocci]

he likes sasuke cuz he looks the most asian while naruto looks american

He look the most Japanese.

[FireFox]

You know I seriously doubt Kishi even read those novels.

LOL I doubt whether he reads the previous chapters he wrote bc this Gaiden is full with inconsistent crap not to mention he didn't even bother with the original bc he's brilliant like that  .

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

Doesn't matter if Sakura and Naruto are acting like the parents for Sarada, because I can guarantee you that Sasuke will be forgiven for not being around for Sarada or Sakura all these years and he'll be welcomed back like nothing happened.

 

By the end of this, Sarada will look up to Sasuke as her father, even though he was never around, and Kishi will make him out to be a model parent no matter what Sasuke does. Because the fact of the matter is in this series Sasuke cannot do any harm, it's always someone else's fault.

Yep...

Sasuke betrays the village and almost gets everyone sent to bring him back killed - It's Itachi's/Naruto's/Orochimaru's fault.

Sasuke tries to kill Team 7 in their reunion - It's Orochimaru's fault.

Sasuke wants to destroy Konoha - It's "Tobi's"/"Madara's"/the elder's fault

Sasuke attacks the Gokage summit - It's "Tobi's"/"Madara's" fault

Sasuke murders Danzo - It's all Danzo's own fault.

Sasuke, again, tries to kill Team 7 - It's "Tobi's"/"Madara's" fault.

Sasuke tries to kill Naruto again - It's "the system's" fault

Sasuke is absent from his "family's" life for twelve years - It's "the mission's" fault.

Sasuke doesn't save Sakura - It's "conveniently having weakened eye powers that he just happens to get back right after's" fault.

Edited by HalfDemonInuyasha, 19 June 2015 - 06:19 PM.

[SlyNinjaKnight]

Since it has nearly been confirmed that Sarada is Karin's child not Sakura's, well as confirmed as anything will ever get in this crazy mixed up spin-off, what if Sasuke used his Sharingan to put Sakura under a genjutsu to make her think she was pregnant, possibly explaining that panel that was posted several pages ago. I know that there is evidence that it is possible for women to have a false pregnancy, and their bodies show all the symptoms as well. Just putting this theory out there, it could be why Naruto is shocked that Sarada is not Sakura's, since maybe he did see Sakura 'pregnant' off-panel at some point.

[Konoha'sCrimsonFox]

Yes, exactly. Kishimoto is still writing the same old story he's been writing for 699 chapters. That's why this story is such crazy mixed messaging. He can't let NS go, yet he's not going to go all out and have a consensual mutually-affirming SS lovefest either.  

 

And hello? The panel with Naruto saying "Let's go save your mom!" - Wha??!? Shouldn't this be Sasuke's line? Why is Naruto the one saying it? 

 

The whole thing is a mess. I think ultimately, NH had to be the ending to satisfy the higher powers, that's why it's such a no-show in the manga. It's an SP-driven ship, made by the anime and brought to fulfillment in the movie. But Kishimoto never wanted it.

 

Which leaves the real manga ending NS or SS? And that's why the Gaiden is such mixed messaging. Kishimoto doesn't want to disrespect his main character, who has always chased after Sakura. It's Naruto's whole identity. So he can't show a fully-realized SS. Showing SS in a mutually loving relationship means that Naruto lost (even though he's with Hinata, the one he never wanted) and makes Naruto less of a hero.

 

HOWEVER, Sasuke is Kishimoto's favorite, so he is the one who is awarded Sakura and her long-suffering love of still waiting at home for the cool drifter guy. But any kind of affection between the two is never ever shown, and now their child might not actually even be theirs.

 

Affection between them would make one the clear winner over the other. And honestly, Sakura was one of Naruto's main goals. Making Sasuke and Sakura have a full-on romance makes Naruto irrelevant.

 

So Sakura looks like Kushina (the manga's high bar of what a loving wife/mother should look like), gets unconditional support from Naruto (who has his hero's identity wrapped up in loving her his whole life), and maintains an unromantic marriage to Sasuke (who is the author's favorite) so that Naruto stays relevant.

 

That's why the relationship messaging is such a mess. Even though the story's over, Kishimoto still can't commit. This weirdo ship-heavy ending — where NH is noticeably absent, there are panels that pre-699 would have been overtly NS, and we're seeing more positive scenes of Sakura than we did the whole last half of the manga — instead of a ninja-related plot is a perfect example of how Kishimoto can't commit to the ships he's slated for the end. 

 

He's ok with Sakura being with Sasuke (because Sasuke was his favorite) but NH falls just as flat in writing/drawing as it does for everyone else who's been following the manga. That's why he's not covering it. 

 

So yeah, I'm taking the long way around, but I completely agree with you - Kishimoto is still writing for NS. And in fact, even in the manga he never stopped. He just tacked on the NH ending. But in this ship-heavy Part 3, Naruto is still coming across as NS to me. Not NH. 

 

 

The forehead poke is a stand-in for real love. And yeah, it's a subtle ret-conning of Naruto's connection with Sakura. So stupid.

 

I agree with everything you've said. I feel like we will get some SS scene, or perhaps him saving her at the last moment, with Naruto looking on smilingly like Hinata after the Pain defeat in Part 2. Something like him being happy to see his two friends together. But nothing more SS than something sweet like a look or even a hug. I don't think Kishi will commit to a kiss. I don't think SS will crash and burn, even though I'd like it to.

 

On another note, if this level of shipping confusion had gone on before the ending, a lot more people would have been in Sakura's camp. If you had Naruto supporting Sakura in words, and Sasuke occasionally putting forth a little effort/action to support her, while Sakura was stuck in the middle, leaning on herself for support in a bad situation, I think there would have been a lot more sympathy for Sakura in choosing the one that loved her completely and unconditionally.

 

Unfortunately, in the manga, every two steps forward she took were immediately followed by three steps back. Either by thinking of Sasuke or crying, or by having it paired with some crap with Hinata doing the same thing. 

 

But if this type of shipping ambiguity happened in the manga — with Naruto and Sasuke having to rescue a strong Sakura — I think fans would have reacted better to her. Instead having doe-eyed Hinata inserted at every opportune moment undermined anything Sakura brought to the story.

 

Very well said. My opinion is that Sasuke being Kishi's favorite is perhaps that Naruto and Sasuke's friendship and relationship is based off his and his brother Seishi's relationship. Sakura being like a carbon copy or imitation of Kishi's wife all thanks to Oda made a comment at Kishi's wedding that Kishi's wife looks like Sakura. The chapter 700 finale interview he stated that Sasuke is like Seishi and he sees himself as Naruto. You put Sasuke and Sakura together. Right their in Kishi's mind that the SS story is a depiction of a love story between his brother and wife. That's why he dodges question and admits in one of his interviews that he has been suffering from Sasuke and Sakura for 15 years. He hates and despises SS as much as us NS fans. SS was needed so SP can make  NH can become canon. 

 

This chapter proved that Sakura may still be a virgin because their is "Zero" courtship from Sasuke. Even if Kishi gives NH and SS a happy ending. Its not because he likes them. Because off the manga sales in the west. However, he may do the impossible and just completely destroy this manga. There is no way of telling which direction Kishi will choose. But I know Kishi knows that must of us think that he will go with the happy ending. I always looked at the least expected version of the ending 

[TouKen4Life3g]

Is Karin even alive?

[rocci]

Is Karin even alive?

No, idea.

[TouKen4Life3g]

You know what's weird...

Tokyo Ghoul Root A ending would actually be good...for Naruto.

If you have seen it, you know what happened in the end. That said just imagine Naruto style of this ending. It actually fits better than the actual ending we got. Here's the note to imagine your head.

-Hide is replaced by Sasuke and collapse in front of Naruto.
-Naruto carries his body and walks down slowly to where everyone is at as the moon eye plan ended.
-Sakura, replacing Touka, smiles to see Naruto, but realized he's carrying Sasuke's body as he is no longer alive.
-Kakashi, replacing Yomo, tells Sakura the lesson of war: "Live as they continue to lose."
-Bonus: Play unravel acoustic.
-Naruto continues to walk down as everyone is waking up; Naruto continues to have a sad then happy expression.
-Shots of people who has lost someone (Example: Lee losing his best friend/rival)
-A monologue by Naruto on everything.
-Real chapter 699 ends; insert your true chapter 700 ending

Oh well, we got a very happy ending that even Orochimaru got away with everything.

[narusakurama]

Is it possible that over time Sasuke took Naruto's place as the author self insert and consequently as main character ? That could also explain why Kishi likes Sasuke so much . I mean , he always was what Kishi could only dream to be in real life , the cool guy getting all the girls . And the way SS is shown is just Kishi's childish vision of what true love really means . Has to be tough to be this guy's wife in this case

Edited by narusakurama, 19 June 2015 - 07:04 PM.

[Yyubie]

Yep...

Sasuke betrays the village and almost gets everyone sent to bring him back killed - It's Itachi's/Naruto's/Orochimaru's fault.

Sasuke tries to kill Team 7 in their reunion - It's Orochimaru's fault.

Sasuke wants to destroy Konoha - It's "Tobi's"/"Madara's"/the elder's fault

Sasuke attacks the Gokage summit - It's "Tobi's"/"Madara's" fault

Sasuke murders Danzo - It's all Danzo's own fault.

Sasuke, again, tries to kill Team 7 - It's "Tobi's"/"Madara's" fault.

Sasuke tries to kill Naruto again - It's "the system's" fault

Sasuke is absent from his "family's" life for twelve years - It's "the mission's" fault.

Sasuke doesn't save Sakura - It's "conveniently having weakened eye powers that he just happens to get back right after's" fault.

Just hearing his name give me headache and makes me want to throw up

 

 

At the end of chapter 8 naruto said he wants to speak with sasuke after all this mission done, i have a strong feelings he gonna ask sasuke regarding sarada DNA or his feeling and obligation to his family. Maybe sasuke gonna answer with "I told you naruto i don't have interest in her and bla bla bla......"

 

[Konoha'sCrimsonFox]

Is Karin even alive?

that's just Kishi's trump card up his sleeve. That's going to be the ultimate troll them. It will either work in SS's favor or absolutely destroy them. What I mean destroy is that SS sinks next to NS.

Edited by Konoha'sCrimsonFox, 19 June 2015 - 07:30 PM.

[TouKen4Life3g]

that's just Kishi's trump card up his sleeve. That's going to be the ultimate troll them. It will either work in SS's favor or absolutely destroy them. What I mean destroy is that SS sinks next to NS.

Basically, if she's alive, then she can fix the DNA bs crap. If she's dead, she is the mother. So...basically, Kishi got two chapters with him and think on what to publish.