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#321 sushi.

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Posted 08 January 2014 - 05:57 PM

I don't understand why people want naruto to fight without his kurama power.

it's like gara fighting without his sand control or sasuke without his EMS absolute jutsu.

naruto fight the people with the streght of god level. sage mode alone can not working against it.

unless he has the jutsu that make him strong, and I believe he will get it in the form of uzumaki fuin jutsu.

Because he and Kurama are two beings. Gaara's sand control is a bad comparison, because it is his ability. You can't rip it away from him. I don't get it either though, Naruto has fought enough already. :( Btw, how can fuuinjutsu make you strong?


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#322 Atheck

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Posted 08 January 2014 - 07:43 PM

Because he and Kurama are two beings. Gaara's sand control is a bad comparison, because it is his ability. You can't rip it away from him. I don't get it either though, Naruto has fought enough already. :(


It's because Naruto is one of the best shinobi that the Alliance can throw out against Madara. Even with this recent downgrade he's stronger than almost everyone else on his side. It would be dangerously impractical to try and send out a contingent like the Rookies or the samurai because they're horribly outclassed in every way by their opponent. It would become a bloodbath with Madara at the helm of the slaughter.

Sasuke is their best hope right now. That may be undesirable to some people, but he's the best person with techniques and insight that are capable of matching Madara's jutsu (assuming he has Perfect Susanoo). The only ones who might be able to make a difference are the Kages, Tobirama, Hiruzen, and Orochimaru. But they're currently indisposed at the moment. Nevertheless, it's becoming more of a losing fight.
 

Btw, how can fuuinjutsu make you strong?


He might have been referring to techniques like the Flying Thunder God and the Space-Time Barrier. If Naruto acquired those, it would make him an important contender once again.

#323 Sakamaki Izayoi

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Posted 08 January 2014 - 07:49 PM

It's because Naruto is one of the best shinobi that the Alliance can throw out against Madara. Even with this recent downgrade he's stronger than almost everyone else on his side. It would be dangerously impractical to try and send out a contingent like the Rookies or the samurai because they're horribly outclassed in every way by their opponent. It would become a bloodbath with Madara at the helm of the slaughter.

Sasuke is their best hope right now. That may be undesirable to some people, but he's the best person with techniques and insight that are capable of matching Madara's jutsu (assuming he has Perfect Susanoo). The only ones who might be able to make a difference are the Kages, Tobirama, Hiruzen, and Orochimaru. But they're currently indisposed at the moment. Nevertheless, it's becoming more of a losing fight.

That's the same i think, it's either Naruto gets the other half and recovers, or Sasuke with Orochimaru +taka will take down Madara and with this action it will redeem Sasuke's bad action, on which will make everything goes to the ground zero, i'm not doubting Kishi is going for that route, i think it's plausible with it Sasuke wont suffer any retaliation for his evil actions in the past.
With it the manga will give me enough reasons to drop.

He might have been referring to techniques like the Flying Thunder God and the Space-Time Barrier. If Naruto acquired those, it would make him an important contender once again.

If he uses TKG i'll rage because he could've easily defeat Obito earlier during the fight, or even prevented Madara.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 08 January 2014 - 07:50 PM.

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#324 FireFox

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 12:14 AM

I never stated that Naruto couldn't use those techniques on his own. Only that it was thanks to Kurama that he was capable of using them sequentially without becoming exhausted so quickly. The Rasenshuriken alone drains roughly a third of his chakra (as evidenced by the fact that after throwing three Rasenshurikens he was shown to be visibly exhausted and without Sage Mode in #614). Yet the technique has been portrayed as having little effect on his reserves when he used KM (including when he was dual-wielding two Rasenshuriken in #618 after supplying the entire Alliance with his chakra).

Sage Mode is the fruit of his own labours and he deserves credit for what he's managed by himself, but it's kind of obvious that Kurama was the lion's share of his power.
 

Oh i see, what you meant is than now that kurama is no more his durability in a battle is half shorten and i agree with that after all he was fighting for full what 2 or 3 days now with his own (if fully fresh and restored ) he would probably last a day more or less.But i still wonder if losing Kurama will increase his own chakra poll i don't mean on the level that he had with Kurama but maybe duplicate the amount he has now after all Kurama did take some place in his belly i just wonder if that place is chakra related it's not out of the realm for something like this to happen.

            


Maybe... Personally, I'm not too convinced that there is any sort of undiscovered hidden power relating to his chakra. It's possible that Kurama might have left a perpetual impact on Naruto that offers him extraordinary powers that he wouldn't normally have had he never been exposed to the bijuu. Gaara was left with exceptional chakra reserves and unique techniques after Shukaku was removed from him.
 

 

Like you said maybe it's not impossible,he did have the ability to pass chakra freely to all of the alliance and this was Minato,Kushina and Kurama related maybe there is more to come time will tell, i wonder if this ability is the mechanism for the FTG ?   

 

 

He mentioned it in #645.
 

Scan

 
How else could it be explained other than it being a fortunate by-product of BM? I don't think it was just a miraculous coincidence that suddenly happened for inexplicable reasons. Despite his appearance, Kurama is technically just a mass of natural energy. Given the conditions of his partner's existence and of his power, it's not really that impossible to believe that the BM enhances Naruto's ability to gather natural energy. Nevermind the fact that he only mentioned that it was easier in BM and not any time before that when he wasn't using Kurama's chakra.
 

 

I wouldn't called it miraculous coincidence if you remember in the land of iron just before Saskras confession he did train for how to go in SM faster by going in and out of it he even stated that he enter SM faster than before, i think that with each usage of SM his time of entering is increasing but your point is also valid. Bolded i think what you meant to say is that he mentioned that when he was in BM not that it was easier in BM. 

 

 

Well he's going to have to refine his sage abilities quickly if he wants to somehow compensate for the drastic reduction in power. He's at a severe disadvantage right now without Kurama and his chakra shroud. A good first step would be learning to fuse with the frog sages and incorporating their techniques into his fighting style.
 

I've wondered about those questions also. Part of me wants him to remain without Kurama so he can try his hand at combat without having a near infinite reservoire of power to fall back on. Naruto, stripped of all his backup aid, forced to rely entirely on his own power and it alone. Although it doesn't make sense that he would be permanently without his bijuu counterpart given Kishi's effort to have him train in mastering Kurama's chakra and Minato's foreshadowing of Naruto receiving the Yin half (what else could it be). We'll have to wait and see.

Yeah i agree with all of this the only thing i would add to this is what if the present is also the FTG or maybe a scroll of Uzumaki sealing techniques ?

 

I don't understand why people want naruto to fight without his kurama power.

it's like gara fighting without his sand control or sasuke without his EMS absolute jutsu.

naruto fight the people with the streght of god level. sage mode alone can not working against it.

unless he has the jutsu that make him strong, and I believe he will get it in the form of uzumaki fuin jutsu.

 

You have a point except for the Gara thing since he's not longer a jin , what irritates me the most is when people belittle Naruto and glorify Sasuke by saying that Naruto always uses the fox and it's not his power but Sasuke using CS and EMS are his own power and by that Sasuke's the better out of the two and Naruto is nothing with out the fox , its a freaking double standard.        


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#325 Atheck

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 02:02 AM

Oh i see, what you meant is than now that kurama is no more his durability in a battle is half shorten and i agree with that after all he was fighting for full what 2 or 3 days now with his own (if fully fresh and restored ) he would probably last a day more or less.


It's not just his defence but speed and destructive power as well. With Kurama's chakra he had become so nimble that he was likened to the Yellow Flash. His power was capable of matching five of the bijuu who were all strong enough to level entire mountain ranges. The only things that Sage Mode seems to have over KCM/BM is physical strength, the disintegrative disc of the Rasenshuriken, and versatility with how many different techniques you can learn.
 

But i still wonder if losing Kurama will increase his own chakra poll i don't mean on the level that he had with Kurama but maybe duplicate the amount he has now after all Kurama did take some place in his belly i just wonder if that place is chakra related it's not out of the realm for something like this to happen.

Like you said maybe it's not impossible,he did have the ability to pass chakra freely to all of the alliance and this was Minato,Kushina and Kurama related maybe there is more to come time will tell, i wonder if this ability is the mechanism for the FTG ?

     
It could, but I just don't want him to rely Kurama at all. It would breath some life into the fights of the manga if the setup was downsized to some extent where old qualities like unpredictability and ingenuity were the mainstay of how fights are determined. Ever since these giant chakra entities became the primary combat strategy of characters the fights have become tedious.   
 

I wouldn't called it miraculous coincidence if you remember in the land of iron just before Saskras confession he did train for how to go in SM faster by going in and out of it he even stated that he enter SM faster than before, i think that with each usage of SM his time of entering is increasing but your point is also valid. Bolded i think what you meant to say is that he mentioned that when he was in BM not that it was easier in BM.

 
Easier to maintain or access. Being able to gather natural energy more quickly will make the preservation of Sage Mode easier and longer.
 

Yeah i agree with all of this the only thing i would add to this is what if the present is also the FTG or maybe a scroll of Uzumaki sealing techniques ?


There is that destroyed Uzumaki shrine in Konoha that contained all of those masks. Perhaps they each served a purpose with an individual sealing jutsu.  
 

You have a point except for the Gara thing since he's not longer a jin , what irritates me the most is when people belittle Naruto and glorify Sasuke by saying that Naruto always uses the fox and it's not his power but Sasuke using CS and EMS are his own power and by that Sasuke's the better out of the two and Naruto is nothing with out the fox , its a freaking double standard.


Exactly, but that doesn't mean Shukaku didn't leave a lasting impression on Gaara.

To be fair, Naruto's training has very much emphasised the power of the bijuu. It's how he's been able to survive many of his fights. He incorporates that power into his repertoire.

Naruto's prominence isn't dictated solely by Kurama, but it's the largest source of strength that he has. What would he be without it? The son of the 4th Hokage who mastered the senjutsu arts and Uzumaki fuinjutsu? Commendable, but it would be difficult to write him surpassing Hashirama after what we've seen of him. But considering that Kishi is the author, he would find a way to justify it.

I think one of the main reasons people try to attribute discrepancies to Sasuke is because he's just one person. He doesn't have a second consciousness feeding him power or tactical advice. For much of the recent fights, Naruto has allowed Kurama to take control over his body and he's even been at the forefront of teams, issuing orders to others whilst Naruto follows behind him. Anything that Sasuke comes up with has to be created using only his intelligence and implemented solely by himself (when he's not with Taka or anyone else).

True, Sasuke does have Itachi's eyes implanted and he does have a portion of Juugo's flesh infused into his chest (which should allow him to gather natural energy without the need for any meditative training), but those qualities only increase his weapon arsenal and stats. It's not like the eyes or the flesh develop a mind of their own that give Sasuke an advantage in numerical intelligence. Moreover, neither provide nowhere near as much chakra as Kurama does.

It's just one of those advantages that Naruto has.

Edited by Atheck, 09 January 2014 - 02:51 AM.


#326 FireFox

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 07:42 AM

That's the same i think, it's either Naruto gets the other half and recovers, or Sasuke with Orochimaru +taka will take down Madara and with this action it will redeem Sasuke's bad action, on which will make everything goes to the ground zero, i'm not doubting Kishi is going for that route, i think it's plausible with it Sasuke wont suffer any retaliation for his evil actions in the past.
With it the manga will give me enough reasons to drop.

 

 

I have yet to see or heard of a manga or anime when the anti hero strikes the final villain and becomes the hero , besides his bad actions are already/can be redeemed just with the fact that he's now fighting in this war on their side and also helped them with the reinforcement he brought with him i think this should be enough for them to forgive his bad actions, also i see him and the kages in the next chapters playing the role Vegeta played against Bu which is stalling Madara until the hero returns to his full power and defeats the villain but not kill him,the killing part might be done by Sasuke.

 

It's not just his defence but mobility and destructive power as well. With Kurama's chakra he had become so nimble that he was likened to the Yellow Flash. His power was capable of matching five of the bijuu who were all strong enough to level entire mountain ranges. The only things that Sage Mode seemed to have over KCM/BM were physical strength, the disintegrative disc of the Rasenshuriken, and versatility in regards to the abilities that you could acquire.

 

 

Well In therms of defense and mobility it can be compensated if Kishi decides to give him the FTG about the power thing he does have Odama RS and while it certainly doesn't compare with the TBB(after all nothing can be compared with it in therms od destruction) it did menage to destroy Hashirams wood dragons and that pillar thing i just don't know if it can penetrate something like sussano or shinsu senju so yeah the power thing will be a big problem to compensate for it

 

 

     
It could, but I just don't want him to rely Kurama at all. It would breath some life into the fights of the manga if the setup was downsized to some extent where old qualities like unpredictability and ingenuity were the mainstay of how fights are determined. Ever since these giant chakra entities became the primary combat strategy of characters the fights have become tedious.   
 

 

To me the power levels doesn't bother me that much to be honest but the fact that there is no strategy when they're used and when Kishi tries to use some of it he fails in that miserably, so yeah i understand what you mean but he went to far with them and there is no turning back and not to mention all the Uciha aspulls he gave and not expanding more on the Senju and the Uzumakis abilities and history. Maybe it can happen but for that he has to take Sasukes EMS or expand more on Naruto and his abilities and somehow surpass Madara and Hashirama with out Rinengan and Kyuubi.

 

 

 
Easier to maintain or access. Being able to gather natural energy more quickly will make the preservation of Sage Mode easier and longer.
 

 

Oh sorry for misreading it then, but still until there's more prof for both of our theories this I'll agree to disagree on this.

 

 

There is that destroyed Uzumaki shrine in Konoha that contained all of those masks. Perhaps they each served a purpose with an individual sealing jutsu.  
 

 

I think that all of those masks are some kind of Kinjutsu like the ShikiFuujin it would be very interesting if Kishi chose to expand more of them after the war if he plans to do a training arc where Naruto learns the FTG and sealing jutsus. I used to have prediction  when Kurama teaches Naruto all of the Uzumaki seals since he has been sealed in two other Uzumakis he had to know all of their jutsus especially some kind of a binding/controlling jutsu it would be so cool to see a arc like this :yes: .

 

 

  
Exactly, but that doesn't mean Shukaku didn't leave a lasting impression on Gaara.

To be fair, Naruto's training has very much emphasised the power of the bijuu. It's how he's been able to survive many of his fights. He incorporates that power into his repertoire.

Naruto's prominence isn't dictated solely by Kurama, but it's the largest source of strength that he has. What would he be without it? The son of the 4th Hokage who mastered the senjutsu arts and Uzumaki fuinjutsu? Commendable, but it would be difficult to write him surpassing Hashirama after what we've seen of him. But considering that Kishi is the author, he would find a way to justify it.

I think one of the main reasons people try to attribute discrepancies to Sasuke is because he's just one person. He doesn't have a second consciousness feeding him power or tactical advice. For much of the recent fights, Naruto has allowed Kurama to take control over his body and he's even been at the forefront of teams, issuing orders to others whilst Naruto follows behind him. Anything that Sasuke comes up with has to be created using only his intelligence and implemented solely by hims

 

elf (when he's not with Taka or anyone else).

True, Sasuke does have Itachi's eyes implanted and he does have a portion of Juugo's flesh infused into his chest (which should allow him to gather natural energy without the need for any meditative training), but those qualities only increase his weapon arsenal and stats. It's not like the eyes or the flesh develop a mind of their own that give Sasuke an advantage in numerical intelligence. Moreover, neither provide nowhere near as much chakra as Kurama does.

It's just one of those advantages that Naruto has.

 

Now that i think about it Gara's case is the same as Naruto's his mother was also the jin for the 1T maybe that's while pregnant wit him maybe that's how he can manipulate the sand ?

 

If Kishi could made Hasirama the chakra wood monster and gave the Ucihas the most hax and ridiculous powers there's no doubt in my mind that making/writing Naruto without Kuramato be more powerful than Hashirama would be a peace of cake for him , do not underestimate the power of Kikittenrolo :hehehe:       

 

But how does that lessens Naruto's own intelligence to come up with a plan on his own before and after Kuramas cooperation it didn't make Naruto any smarter all he did was inform Naruto and the others of something that no one was aware of in therms with the Juubi's nature and ability and how to defeat it because he was once a part of him , he didn't tell Naruto how to remove the chains from the bijuus or noticed jubito's weakness and how to defeat him or finding the weakness of the 3rd Raikage and device a plan for it and there is so much more of this from Naruto himself. Also i don't understand  what role the switching thing plays between them since they can both do the same things in BM and besides they have switch for what 3 or 4 times until now ? 

 

No Itachi's eyes didn't gave him a mind of his own (although there was a time when he felt his presence and was talking to him self :chuckle: ) but what it did gave him was the most hax abilities of all time, so no eyes no : one shot Amaterasu (that burns everything it touches until it dies ),no one shot Tsukuyomi (where a few sec are turned into a few days of torture) , no Perfect Sussano (Which can rival the power of a Bijuu) and also didn't the Sharingan perception rises with each evolution of his and with that his chakra poll rises to . So while it doesn't give him a second mind and as much chakra as Kurama it gives him more than enough to compensate for it .

 

I would say that Naruto's advantage is the TBB since it hasn't been show whether PS can withstand its impact and his disadvantage is that all of his powerful attacks uses to much of chakra                  


Edited by NarutoFireFoxUzumaki, 09 January 2014 - 08:41 AM.

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#327 Atheck

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 09:53 PM

Well In therms of defense and mobility it can be compensated if Kishi decides to give him the FTG about the power thing he does have Odama RS and while it certainly doesn't compare with the TBB(after all nothing can be compared with it in therms od destruction) it did menage to destroy Hashirams wood dragons and that pillar thing i just don't know if it can penetrate something like sussano or shinsu senju so yeah the power thing will be a big problem to compensate for it

 
It's assuming that Kishi even allows for this. Naruto has always been one to make due with what he already has. He chooses to focus on how he can expand on the applications of the techniques he has currently rather than learn a plethora of different jutsu like Kakashi (even the Rasenshuriken takes from those fundamental principals of the Bijudama and Rasengan). That's always been a very noticeable quality of his fighting abilities. Has he ever even shown any skills in fuinjutsu outside of knowing how to use the key for his Eight Trigrams Seal?
 
Even if he did learn how to use FTG, I would still argue that it's not quite up to snuff with the speed of the bijuu shroud. Sure, if you apply the mark to any surface, it's irremovable (supposedly). But that right there is where the glaring flaw resides. He needs the seals to be able to achieve high speed teleportation. What if he can't successfully leave his mark on the enemy? Or if he were to throw kunai out onto the battlefield, what's to stop someone like Sasuke from destroying them? If the mark is on their person, what's to stop them from cutting out the segment of the flesh that has the marking on it? It may be irremovable on the skin, but that doesn't mean that the skin can't be extracted.
 
The bijuu shroud didn't have such weaknesses. Although I'm sure Kishi will somehow bypass this weakness if Naruto actually develops his fuinjutsu skills.
 

To me the power levels doesn't bother me that much to be honest but the fact that there is no strategy when they're used and when Kishi tries to use some of it he fails in that miserably, so yeah i understand what you mean but he went to far with them and there is no turning back and not to mention all the Uciha aspulls he gave and not expanding more on the Senju and the Uzumakis abilities and history. Maybe it can happen but for that he has to take Sasukes EMS or expand more on Naruto and his abilities and somehow surpass Madara and Hashirama with out Rinengan and Kyuubi.

 
And that's where the alienation of those who can't meet up to the expectations of enormous chakra monstrosities comes into play. Does Kishi use that as a means to glorify the Uchiha and Senju? Place them on a higher pedestal by making the scale of their jutsu far greater than anything the common man can muster? That's not exactly fair. And it comes at the expense of losing the majority of your cast. Even Sakura can't meet up to those expectations and she's intended to be the heroine of the manga.
 

Now that i think about it Gara's case is the same as Naruto's his mother was also the jin for the 1T maybe that's while pregnant wit him maybe that's how he can manipulate the sand ?

 
It could have been an ability inherited from his father. The 4th Kazekage was able to manipulate gold dust akin to how Gaara uses his sand. It's possible that Shukaku, after being sealed into Gaara, influenced what would have been Gaara's Magnet Release had he not been exposed to Shukaku's chakra. In the manner which Gaara explained his birth, it seems like his birth and the death of his mother came before the bijuu was implanted. Meaning that he would have been influenced only after he was already born.
 

If Kishi could made Hasirama the chakra wood monster and gave the Ucihas the most hax and ridiculous powers there's no doubt in my mind that making/writing Naruto without Kuramato be more powerful than Hashirama would be a peace of cake for him , do not underestimate the power of Kikittenrolo :hehehe:

   
On the same scale as his techniques? Techniques such as the pollen producing tree world, Hotei which can restrict even a bijuu's movement, or the Shinsusenju? You might as well be comparing a fully intelligent Shinju to Naruto alone. I don't underestimate Kishimoto's ability to have something happen, I'm only concerned about how contrived or unreasonable it may be.
 

But how does that lessens Naruto's own intelligence to come up with a plan on his own before and after Kuramas cooperation it didn't make Naruto any smarter all he did was inform Naruto and the others of something that no one was aware of in therms with the Juubi's nature and ability and how to defeat it because he was once a part of him , he didn't tell Naruto how to remove the chains from the bijuus or noticed jubito's weakness and how to defeat him or finding the weakness of the 3rd Raikage and device a plan for it and there is so much more of this from Naruto himself.
 
Also i don't understand  what role the switching thing plays between them since they can both do the same things in BM and besides they have switch for what 3 or 4 times until now ?

 
Intelligence gathered from the centuries of human history that he has paid witness to and has a deep understanding of the Uchiha psyche and techniques because he's been their manipulated pet numerous times now. The fact that Sasuke is considered to be a parallel to Madara gave Kurama an insight into who he would become before we even had any knowledge of the Naruto universe's history (his conversation with Sasuke inside of Naruto's mind is a testament to that understanding).
 
And again, we can't overlook the technical benefits afforded to Naruto. That's one more genjutsu that he would have probably otherwise been unable to break had he not been perfectly synchronised with his bijuu. And it's one more attack that he would have otherwise been unable to defend against without the shroud. There's so many different perks that go into a bijuu's power. The added intelligence makes him all the more dangerous in comparison to almost anyone else alive.
 

No Itachi's eyes didn't gave him a mind of his own (although there was a time when he felt his presence and was talking to him self :chuckle: ) but what it did gave him was the most hax abilities of all time, so no eyes no :

 
What abilities? The ability to create a tengu warrior like Madara? The privilege of keeping his eyesight? From what was explained regarding EMS, it only seems to provide one additional technique. Apparently that technique is Perfect Susanoo. Granted, that does strengthen Sasuke's offence and defence, but its use is dictated by how his volatile "blank canvas" of a mind uses it.
 

one shot Amaterasu (that burns everything it touches until it dies ),

 
Amaterasu's burning potency is inconsistent. In one instance, it's shown to be capable of burning beings who are more durable than the average human down to nothing in moments. But in another, it can't even burn through the cloth of a standard Akatsuki cloak. What makes Amaterasu so dangerous isn't its high intensity burning, but the fact that you can't remove it without resorting to extreme measures. But this wasn't an issue for Naruto since he had both the shroud and his incredible speed to counteract it.
 

no one shot Tsukuyomi (where a few sec are turned into a few days of torture) ,

 
Sasuke doesn't have Tsukuyomi. His MS techniques are Amaterasu and Kagutsuchi. The only genjutsu he has are standard Sharingan illusions (albeit they were capable of tricking Danzo, immobilizing C, and traumatizing Sai). Genjutsu was never his forte, but his illusions are probably stronger than Naruto's personal defences against them.
 

no Perfect Sussano (Which can rival the power of a Bijuu) and also didn't the Sharingan perception rises with each evolution of his and with that his chakra poll rises to .
 
So while it doesn't give him a second mind and as much chakra as Kurama it gives him more than enough to compensate for it .
 
I would say that Naruto's advantage is the TBB since it hasn't been show whether PS can withstand its impact and his disadvantage is that all of his powerful attacks uses to much of chakra

 
I'll grant the Perfect Susanoo, but chakra poll? You mean his reserves? I don't think it was ever stated anywhere in the manga that MS or EMS increase one's chakra reserves.
 
The amount of chakra is an understatement though. Realistically, a 50% Kurama would dwarf Sasuke in stamina. Moreover, EMS doesn't give Sasuke healing abilities potent enough to heal his lung and close a wound so deep that it goes completely through his body (that would actually classify as regeneration). Everything that he does, be it defending against genjutsu or surviving an attack to continue fighting, they're handled by Sasuke alone. Besides the chakra in his eyes and the flesh on his chest, it's all comprised by him.

The advantages given by Kurama encompass all of Naruto's stats.


Edited by Atheck, 09 January 2014 - 09:57 PM.


#328 FireFox

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 03:11 AM

 
It's assuming that Kishi even allows for this. Naruto has always been one to make due with what he already has. He chooses to focus on how he can expand on the applications of the techniques he has currently rather than learn a plethora of different jutsu like Kakashi (even the Rasenshuriken takes from those fundamental principals of the Bijudama and Rasengan). That's always been a very noticeable quality of his fighting abilities. Has he ever even shown any skills in fuinjutsu outside of knowing how to use the key for his Eight Trigrams Seal?
 
Even if he did learn how to use FTG, I would still argue that it's not quite up to snuff with the speed of the bijuu shroud. Sure, if you apply the mark to any surface, it's irremovable (supposedly). But that right there is where the glaring flaw resides. He needs the seals to be able to achieve high speed teleportation. What if he can't successfully leave his mark on the enemy? Or if he were to throw kunai out onto the battlefield, what's to stop someone like Sasuke from destroying them? If the mark is on their person, what's to stop them from cutting out the segment of the flesh that has the marking on it? It may be irremovable on the skin, but that doesn't mean that the skin can't be extracted.
 
The bijuu shroud didn't have such weaknesses. Although I'm sure Kishi will somehow bypass this weakness if Naruto actually develops his fuinjutsu skills.

Yes it's all an assumption,but he did receive most of his parents abilities/jutsus and surpassed them in it and FTG is based on a fuinjutsu i really can't see Naruto son of two masters in fuinjutsus and as one of the two last living members of the Uzumaki clan not having them ,it definitely  won't be some kind of an asspull or impossible to happen , that's assuming if Kishi chose not to give Kurama back to Naruto if he goes back than bye bye to all of this :))) . It's true that Naruto has bean shown to work with what he has and expanded on it but he's also shown us that he's always open to learn new jutsus if this wasn't the case than we wouldn't have seen him excited about learning  jutsus like the rasengan or the KB, he didn't have them in the begining it's just that at that time he was more focused on how to control the Kuubi's chakra because it was a hindrance to him and it had to be dealt with it as shown in his 3 years traning with Jiraiya and the RS training , if the Kuubi doesn't come back i don't see on what  else he can expand on , the only logical thing for him would be to  learn a new jutsus/ techniques.

 

About the FTG, you can't compare an instant teleportation with any kind of a speed for the simple reason that the one is instant and bijuu speed isn't no matter how fast you move it still takes time to get to certain destination which's not case with the FTG . I belive it's a canon fact that once you put your mark on something it stays forever unless you change your chakra signature or skin (not sure about what he changed)  like juubito did . I don't think a what If scenario should be played in this particular case cus there is a lot of possibilities /  variations of what can it be done with the FTG if what you said doesn't work for ex: if the kunais are destroyed he can always put a mark on his clones imagine a thousand of them each of them marked , they would be even better than a kunai cus they can actually move on their own it would be overkill , for removing the segment i don't think that would be an god idea if you don't have instant regeneration but i guess anything is better than instant death but i guess eventually the victim will die form blood lost hahaha 

 

While he doesn't have the same protection with the shroud he does have the Space -Time Barrier which can wrap any kind of an attack and send it to his opponent so dunno about this .

 

 

And that's where the alienation of those who can't meet up to the expectations of enormous chakra monstrosities comes into play. Does Kishi use that as a means to glorify the Uchiha and Senju? Place them on a higher pedestal by making the scale of their jutsu far greater than anything the common man can muster? That's not exactly fair. And it comes at the expense of losing the majority of your cast. Even Sakura can't meet up to those expectations and she's intended to be the heroine of the manga.
 

 
It could have been an ability inherited from his father. The 4th Kazekage was able to manipulate gold dust akin to how Gaara uses his sand. It's possible that Shukaku, after being sealed into Gaara, influenced what would have been Gaara's Magnet Release had he not been exposed to Shukaku's chakra. In the manner which Gaara explained his birth, it seems like his birth and the death of his mother came before the bijuu was implanted. Meaning that he would have been influenced only after he was already born.
 

   
On the same scale as his techniques? Techniques such as the pollen producing tree world, Hotei which can restrict even a bijuu's movement, or the Shinsusenju? You might as well be comparing a fully intelligent Shinju to Naruto alone. I don't underestimate Kishimoto's ability to have something happen, I'm only concerned about how contrived or unreasonable it may be.

 

 I believe this is to be the case , it's a darn shame really there was so much potential to it but it is what it it is hehehe.

Regarding Sakura i still haven't lost hope there is a potential for SSM i think ? maybe after the war she will have a training arc where she and Naruto train together Sakura can help him with the seals and Naruto can help her with SM it would be a perfect NS arc :woot: 

 

The way i see it there are 3 choices regarding this case : 1. Shukaku 's chakra mixed with his own when he was in his mother womb. 2. Your theory and  3.Which is a combination of 1 and 2  dunno your guess is as good as mine, i hope Kishi explains this case :smile: 

 

I think you are exaggerating the pollen and the Hotei . Wood style does have a weakness toward fire and wind not to mention things like jinton or any kind of a explosive jutsu , while powerful yes they are not on the scale as the Shinsusenju , the only thing that can destroy that thing is either a Bijuu Dama or some kind of giant Wind or Storm jutsu like Ten pen chie . As for your last point yeah i agree with that i'm worried about that also but i don't think he will ruin his main character like that at least i hope he won't  :sweatdrop: . 


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#329 Atheck

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 06:46 AM

Yes it's all an assumption,but he did receive most of his parents abilities/jutsus and surpassed them in it and FTG is based on a fuinjutsu

 

We saw virtually nothing from his parents though. Minato's participation in fights has been sporadic and short-lived. There isn't too much to go on how he would have handled some of the battle conditions Naruto has had to fight under. He was apparently taught Uzumaki fuinjutsu, but the only things relating to the Uzumaki that we've seen from him are the Eight Trigrams Seal and Shiki Fujin. Most of his fuinjutsu consists of techniques who's origins are unknown (except for the Flying Thunder God technique).

As for Kushina, besides hype as a sealing practitioner and being the jinchuuriki of Kurama, all she's used is a chakra barrier and chains that are capable of restraining 100% Kurama. There's next to nothing that can be assessed about how she would do in a fight except that she was a brawler like Naruto who wasn't very good at ninjutsu.

Kurama admitted to himself that Naruto had surpassed them in terms of the amount of chakra that he could link and transfer to others. I won't deny that Naruto has surpassed them in power (when he still had KCM/BM), but if you're making comparisons based on the specific jutsu that they've both used, Naruto has only really surpassed them in the way of combining his nature transformation with the Rasengan. Minato came to terms with Yin Kurama much more quickly than Naruto did and he was able to use the same jinchuuriki based techniques and modes as efficiently as Naruto without any former training (unless it's confirmed at a later date that he refined his skills to be able to use the bijuu's power inside of the Shinigami's stomach). Their use of summoning jutsu is about the same and Minato can create shadow clones easily (although they're not part of his conventional fighting style).

That sums up the similarities between Naruto and his parents. Of the handful of jutsu that he inherited from them, I would argue that the only ones he's excelled at are the Rasengan, clones, and chakra transference.
 

i really can't see Naruto son of two masters in fuinjutsus and as one of the two last living members of the Uzumaki clan not having them ,it definitely  won't be some kind of an asspull or impossible to happen , that's assuming if Kishi chose not to give Kurama back to Naruto if he goes back than bye bye to all of this :))) .

 

Is it? I mean his entire clan, including his parents, are dead. Who does he have to learn their jutsu from? Tsunade? Her abilities focus on academic knowledge and precise chakra control. Naruto may have the latter but he's severely lacking in the former. He's not the sort of person who would do book related research. As Naruto himself put it, he learns through experience (muscle memory).
 

It's true that Naruto has bean shown to work with what he has and expanded on it but he's also shown us that he's always open to learn new jutsus if this wasn't the case than we wouldn't have seen him excited about learning  jutsus like the rasengan or the KB, he didn't have them in the begining it's just that at that time he was more focused on how to control the Kuubi's chakra because it was a hindrance to him and it had to be dealt with it as shown in his 3 years traning with Jiraiya and the RS training , if the Kuubi doesn't come back i don't see on what  else he can expand on , the only logical thing for him would be to  learn a new jutsus/ techniques.

 

Most jutsu require complicated handseals and memorisation that would not be too effective in the hands of someone like Naruto. It's not suitable for his unique fighting style which emphasises using as few handseals as possible. The only jutsu that I could picture him learning is the Flying Thunder God technique. It doesn't require any handseals and it could be considered a part of the 4th's legacy. It would be better to have it passed down to his son instead of a group of bodyguards.

I would rather see Naruto adjust his fighting style to account for the frog sages' unique jutsu as they fuse with him. Something similar to what Jiraiya displayed against Pain.
 

About the FTG, you can't compare an instant teleportation with any kind of a speed for the simple reason that the one is instant and bijuu speed isn't no matter how fast you move it still takes time to get to certain destination which's not case with the FTG.

 

Instantaneous movement is the one thing that FTG has over the shroud. But at the same time, the range of jumping points is limited to wherever you have the mark placed. The shroud doesn't discriminate with location. You can move wherever you want to without restriction and there isn't a potential danger of losing your ability to teleport if your jump point is destroyed.
 

I belive it's a canon fact that once you put your mark on something it stays forever unless you change your chakra signature or skin (not sure about what he changed)like juubito did. I don't think a what If scenario should be played in this particular case cus there is a lot of possibilities /  variations of what can it be done with the FTG if what you said doesn't work for ex: if the kunais are destroyed he can always put a mark on his clones imagine a thousand of them each of them marked, they would be even better than a kunai cus they can actually move on their own it would be overkill , for removing the segment i don't think that would be an god idea if you don't have instant regeneration but i guess anything is better than instant death but i guess eventually the victim will die form blood lost hahaha

 

Generally, Naruto doesn't summon that many clones unless he's taking a direct human waves tactic approach. He uses clones more conservatively now in an effort to analyse his opponent's tactics. Nevertheless, that strategy wouldn't work against someone with a sturdy enough defence like Sasuke. In the worst case scenario, Sasuke surrounds himself with Amaterasu and equips it as a shield to his Susanoo, deterring Naruto from teleporting close to him. And if it was placed onto Susanoo, what would prevent Sasuke from dispelling the jutsu and removing the mark from play altogether? The pieces with the mark are replaceable for as much chakra as Sasuke can sacrifice.

 

I can't even begin to imagine how Naruto would handle Perfect Susanoo if a Jinton amplified by Tsunade's chakra couldn't damage it when it was unstabilized.
 

While he doesn't have the same protection with the shroud he does have the Space -Time Barrier which can wrap any kind of an attack and send it to his opponent so dunno about this.  I believe this is to be the case , it's a darn shame really there was so much potential to it but it is what it it is hehehe.

 

Space-Time Barrier is a technique that requires a complicated set of handseals. Aside from what was already mentioned above, Naruto's sealing stats were always on the lower end of the spectrum, very low in fact at 1.5. That's only half a point higher than Lee's sealing stats. It's one of those things which he's always suffered poorly in. 
 

Regarding Sakura i still haven't lost hope there is a potential for SSM i think ? maybe after the war she will have a training arc where she and Naruto train together Sakura can help him with the seals and Naruto can help her with SM it would be a perfect NS arc :woot:

 

I don't believe that Sakura will get SSM, but even if she did, it wouldn't be enough to compensate for the gap existing between her and her teammates who have already surpassed their respective teachers and have moved on to parallel Hashirama and Madara.

 

It would put to rest the tiresome debate about whether she could defeat all of the Rookies (it's disgusting that this is even a debate at all) and possibly Tsunade as well. 

 

Unless she could somehow match BSM and Perfect Susanoo with a jutsu like that Inner Sakura summoning from the Ultimate Ninja series (it's more of a comedy based jutsu than a serious one but it's the best example that comes to mind), Sakura will remain stuck at a lower level of power. But that's not too surprising with the style of writing that Kishi uses which overemphasises the roles of the male characters.  

 

The way i see it there are 3 choices regarding this case : 1. Shukaku 's chakra mixed with his own when he was in his mother womb. 2. Your theory and  3.Which is a combination of 1 and 2  dunno your guess is as good as mine, i hope Kishi explains this case :smile:

 

I don't recall the manga or Databooks saying that Karura was ever infused with Shukaku. Gaara was first exposed to the bijuu after he was born.  
 

I think you are exaggerating the pollen and the Hotei . Wood style does have a weakness toward fire and wind not to mention things like jinton or any kind of a explosive jutsu , while powerful yes they are not on the scale as the Shinsusenju , the only thing that can destroy that thing is either a Bijuu Dama or some kind of giant Wind or Storm jutsu like Ten pen chie.

 

Naruto doesn't have any counters to Mokuton though. Almost every time he went up against it, he was promptly taken out. The one time he was able to destroy a Mokuton jutsu, it left him exhausted and unable to stand on his own. Granted, it was a clone who was weak and being supplied with Kurama's chakra that handled that situation, but Naruto's limitations are very much apparent. Naruto doesn't have the expertise or stamina to handle Hashirama. With the amount of chakra that man has and the scale of his jutsu (even without Shinsusenju), he's a mutant. 


Edited by Atheck, 10 January 2014 - 08:19 AM.


#330 Akashi

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 10:30 AM

Hey, so am I the only one who's not going to read spoilers for the next chapter?? :argh:


Edited by Tauriel, 10 January 2014 - 10:39 AM.


#331 rocci

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 11:10 AM

it's like horse rider, if you seperate it, you only get a horse and a rider. Just like how jinchuriki, especially the perfect one.

I use gara sand because the ability come from shukaku. the same I believe with yugito blue flame, three tail host water something, four tail host lava release, and so on. that's the ability the host get from the bijuu and will remain even if the jinchuriki lost it's bijuu.

 

random : kurama has godzilla like ability. 

 

and what I mean about uzumaki fuinjutsu is the technique use by his own clan, and it's not kekkei genkai I believe. only has certain requirement that only an uzumaki can use it like maybe that fuuinjutsu use life force(speculation).

as soon as Jiraiya performing his fire seal to seal amaterasu. it's give me an idea about how powerful fuinjutsu can be, even more powerful than genjutsu. I mean this technique can make a god into a living battery.

and naruto will not perform in this arc, I believe kishi will prolong naruto with a last training arc in the next arc which I believe kishi will use that training arc to give power up to sasuke and sakura(of course this is just a speculation). 

 

and I will say this again, this war arc is a recycle of chuunin arc + some story from sasuke pursuit arc(the genins and sand sibling)

 

oh another speculation from me, naruto next power up in this war arc would come from the power of (romantic)love



#332 Chatte

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 12:15 PM

Hey, so am I the only one who's not going to read spoilers for the next chapter?? :argh:

Wait, are there spoilers out or?!


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#333 Akashi

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 12:41 PM

Wait, are there spoilers out or?!

I doubt it.
I was just wondering if people would prefer to wait until the chapter comes out next Wednesday. :sweat:



#334 Canadian_DJ

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 01:37 PM

so wait, whens the next chapter?! i thought it was due this Wednesday!!


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#335 Akashi

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 01:46 PM

so wait, whens the next chapter?! i thought it was due this Wednesday!!

Jan 15th.. I meant this Wednesday, dang!  :pinch: 



#336 Rozette

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 04:40 PM

Hey, so am I the only one who's not going to read spoilers for the next chapter?? :argh:

 

I never read spoilers, so you won't be the only one.  :happy:

 

...Just five more long, excruciating days... 


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#337 TouKen4Life3g

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 05:49 PM

Hey, so am I the only one who's not going to read spoilers for the next chapter?? :argh:

Get in line.



#338 BakeNeko-Chan

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 08:50 PM

 

I never read spoilers, so you won't be the only one.  :happy:

 

...Just five more long, excruciating days... 

 

I've never read spoilers either. Wow, is it really only five days to go? I wonder if I'm the only one who actually thinks this break is going pretty quickly?



#339 Sakamaki Izayoi

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 10:11 PM

No one read spoilers, the chapter is being released on wednesday and there's no one providing Naruto spoilers anymore.
Ohana/2ch stopped doing spoilers a long time ago.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 10 January 2014 - 10:11 PM.

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#340 FireFox

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Posted 11 January 2014 - 03:11 AM

 

Intelligence gathered from the centuries of human history that he has paid witness to and has a deep understanding of the Uchiha psyche and techniques because he's been their manipulated pet numerous times now. The fact that Sasuke is considered to be a parallel to Madara gave Kurama an insight into who he would become before we even had any knowledge of the Naruto universe's history (his conversation with Sasuke inside of Naruto's mind is a testament to that understanding).
 
And again, we can't overlook the technical benefits afforded to Naruto. That's one more genjutsu that he would have probably otherwise been unable to break had he not been perfectly synchronised with his bijuu. And it's one more attack that he would have otherwise been unable to defend against without the shroud. There's so many different perks that go into a bijuu's power. The added intelligence makes him all the more dangerous in comparison to almost anyone else alive.
 

 

Kurama's insight of Uciha's psyche and techniques didn't help Naruto one bit,he already knows about those stuff by witnessing/learning on his own,he knows what to expect from them evidence Itachi & Nagato vs Naruto & KB and he's currently witnessing Sasuke's abilities first hand also Naruto's the one who knows/understands Sasuke the best , do you honestly think he's gonna need Kuramas's insight on this don't think so i don't see how Kurama knowing Sasukes potential help's him one bit when Naruto already knows this things.

 

And should we overlook the benefits of Sasuke's EMS restoring his eyesight can he fight blind like Madara and i doubt that without his eyes restored that he can use his genjutsu or amaterasu like the sussano (i still can't believe Kishi did that ) and we still haven't seen what the PS can do except cut mountains and to mention the endurance it has we still don't know if it can or can't tank a BD . Also the added intelligence helps him only in resisting genjustsu it doesn't dictate how he fights or takes away from his ability to come up with a plan to strike on his own which even Tobirama praised him for it and yes it did gave them/him insight about the juubi but like i said that's something that only he would know along with the rest of the bijuus since they were once originally a part of it . Ultimately EMS and BM are not their own powers but they have the potential to achieve them Sasuke's eyes are the only ones that can evolve by adding another set of eyes and Naruto's body chakra is the only one that can maintain/suppress the Kyuubi's chakra and what we should count is what they can do with this powers and their ability to use it, is it fair to others no but it is what it is , and if we took away these powers what do we have a half blind MS Sasuke vs SM Naruto and how can we compare this s**t then.

 

 

 

What abilities? The ability to create a tengu warrior like Madara? The privilege of keeping his eyesight? From what was explained regarding EMS, it only seems to provide one additional technique. Apparently that technique is Perfect Susanoo. Granted, that does strengthen Sasuke's offence and defence, but its use is dictated by how his volatile "blank canvas" of a mind uses it.
 

 
Amaterasu's burning potency is inconsistent. In one instance, it's shown to be capable of burning beings who are more durable than the average human down to nothing in moments. But in another, it can't even burn through the cloth of a standard Akatsuki cloak. What makes Amaterasu so dangerous isn't its high intensity burning, but the fact that you can't remove it without resorting to extreme measures. But this wasn't an issue for Naruto since he had both the shroud and his incredible speed to counteract it.
 

 
Sasuke doesn't have Tsukuyomi. His MS techniques are Amaterasu and Kagutsuchi. The only genjutsu he has are standard Sharingan illusions (albeit they were capable of tricking Danzo, immobilizing C, and traumatizing Sai). Genjutsu was never his forte, but his illusions are probably stronger than Naruto's personal defences against them.
 

 
I'll grant the Perfect Susanoo, but chakra poll? You mean his reserves? I don't think it was ever stated anywhere in the manga that MS or EMS increase one's chakra reserves.
 
The amount of chakra is an understatement though. Realistically, a 50% Kurama would dwarf Sasuke in stamina. Moreover, EMS doesn't give Sasuke healing abilities potent enough to heal his lung and close a wound so deep that it goes completely through his body (that would actually classify as regeneration). Everything that he does, be it defending against genjutsu or surviving an attack to continue fighting, they're handled by Sasuke alone. Besides the chakra in his eyes and the flesh on his chest, it's all comprised by him.

The advantages given by Kurama encompass all of Naruto's stats.

What EMS does for Sasuke is restore his eyesight and bolsters his own ocular power with that of the donor's , drastically reduces the chakra draining and overall strain on the body and the eyes from its usage and gives him the PS , it took out all of his weaknesses and double his power, it hardly seems as little as you make it out to be . And what Naruto doesn't uses his mind when he's fighting ? The only thing that Kurama dictates is whether or not he chooses to give him chakra,  what's Naruto doing with that chakra is entirely his feat it doesn't take away from him for what he has done in this war even after he release the seal it's Naruto's mind/body who controls that chakra not Kurama.

 

There are a lot of inconsistencies in this manga but it doesn't take away from what can Amaterasu really do and it was shown to us that it can melt rocks , what also makes it dangerous is that it's an instant shoot and it's also versatile he can shape it and use it in any form he likes whether for offence or defense , just because Naruto has the means to escape it doesn't mean that it doesn't pose a threat to him.

 

This one i don't know but if it isn't a lesser version of Tsukuyomi than what is it just a powerful MS/EMS genjutsu ? will have to wait and see on this one but didn't he used it read Zetsu's mind ? although his genjutsu/Tsukuyomi  isn't on Itachi's level it's still pose a threat to Naruto.

 

Yeah i meant reserves. Then from where did his chakra come from so for him to be able to stabilize it,even if the EMS drastically reduces the chakra draining and overall strain on his body and eyes if that's the case than how can he stabilize it without the additional chakra it's not like he trained so his chakra increased , and if this's not the case then by now he should have been down on his knees by now ?

 

I didn't said that his chakra now is equal on Naruto's and Kuramas level and more stamina doesn't mean that you instantly win if that's the case than Juubito would have been the winner it just means that you can stay longer in battle . And no EMS doesn't give him healing abilities but restoring your eyes never to lose their light again it's a pretty big thing to don't you think so , also where is that regeneration power now if that was the case why would he need a medic to heal a simple wound and all of that happen when Kurama's chakra was toxic for him can he regenerate now dunno plus his healing abilities might also come from the fact that he's an Uzumaki we only know that he's healing faster with Krama's chakra . I get what you are saying but why does that take away from what Naruto can do with the chakra he has just because he can switch with Kurama and he switched 3 or 4 times and it lasted no more than a few seconds minute at most and it's not like he cant control that chakra,pass it to others,form a BD,attack with it ,defend with it on his own  and it's not like he doesn't know how is he supposed to fight against genjutsu on his own which he stated when he was facing Itachi&Nagato and i doubt that Sasuke's chakra is his own when he says i can feel Itachi's power flowing thru me.

 

It doesn't seem fair that Naruto's feats are always taken away from him in order to glorify Sasuke's just because he has a sentient being within him when neither of their powers are their own , and they should be judged by what they can do with the powers they have now

and again what would we have if they didn't have these extensions on them a SM Naruto vs MS Sasuke . All of this Sasuke's better than Naruto just because Sasuke doesn't have sentient being just doesn't seam right with me and even Sasuke praised Naruto him self for the things that HE can do , but if you see it that way all i can do is agree to disagree with you.                               


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" I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come."




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