54213 replies to this topic

[Atheck]

But why should that matter? There are always going to be naysayers and deniers. Always. Even when it comes to things that are not subjective like the interpretation of fiction.

Interpretation is the epitome of subjectivity. It is only when the author designates one particular interpretation as being virtually apodictic can someone even begin to declare that they were "correct".

For example, there are people who deny the holocaust ever happened. There are people who deny that men walked on the moon. It doesn't matter that the rational majority know these events occurred, or that there is a mountain of evidence -- A/V, forensic, and eye witness -- that documents those events. There are still some who search for contrary "facts" or any possible loophole to exploit, and when they can't find any simply resort to wild theories to explain what they prefer to believe.

I'm not suggesting that denying the likelihood of NS is equivalent to denying man has landed on the moon. The story isn't over, and none of us can know with 100% certainty until Kishimoto's final pencil stroke is published.

The disparity in your analogy is that with the relationships in Kishi's manga there have been scenes that can be utilized to reinforce the probability of either pairing occurring. Recently certain interactions and thoughts were depicted to suggest NH/SS may not be entirely impossible but now we have the possibility of Minato, an individual who is close to Naruto, affirming what many people are presuming will be the parallel with Kushina that Sakura is likely to have. Still, even a parallel to Naruto's mother does not objectify the pairing. It implies a stronger likelihood of occurring but it is not set in stone.

My point is, the manga itself is a "mountain of evidence" that documents the likelihood of NS. The fact that some fans interpret it differently or prefer to believe differently and counter that evidence with denial or "distortion" is to be expected. We shouldn't be concerned over expected behavior, or be afraid to have confidence in our viewpoint because contrary viewpoints exist.

Oh please, by all means, feel and express your self-assurances if you wish. But be prepared to rescind your certitude in the event that our interpretation of the manga is proven incorrect.

And if we end up being wrong about NS? Then we're wrong. I'm pretty sure the sun will continue to rise and set anyway.

No, but it would greatly diminish what credence Kishimoto's writing and mentality has left. The other fanbases would be rejoicing, oblivious to the damaging sacrifices necessitated to allow their desires to come true. For the other NS and Sakura fans I wonder how they would react to it.

The requirement for Tsunade's byakugo was to save a lot of chakra in the forehead in the shape of a diamond and then release it, right?

What if Sakura could use the kyuubi chakra as a proxy and concentrate it to use the byakugo?

Now don't get me wrong, I know it's far fetched, I was just curious if you guys thought something like that would make sense. I don't know if you have to save your own chakra or if you just need a lot of chakra in general to use the byakugo.

Sakura has only been using Kurama's chakra for a brief period of time. For her to be capable of concentrating it onto a single point of her body would imply having a greater degree of control over the foreign chakra than what she is presumably capable of. Not only that, it would negatively impact her as the cloak would be weakened somewhat to compensate for the chakra she is accumulating.

[TouKen4Life3g]

From a long time XD

Ouch. You know, I would wish for Kishi to play a comedy moment by having Hinata just jumping in and ask Minato, "what about me?", only to answer "Who are you?" That's just cold of me, but won't that be funny. So let's just say Hinata replaced Sakura in this scenario. Would you be afraid?

[StriderC]

Lol. It's sad but true that Naruto hasn't smile at Hinata the way that you know he loves her. Naruto only did "Alright, time to be cool" smile, not "I'm smiling because you're just one of a kind" smile to Hinata. Um, friendzoned?

LOL Doesn't sound like a sad thing to me.

[T XD]

Ouch. You know, I would wish for Kishi to play a comedy moment by having Hinata just jumping in and ask Minato, "what about me?", only to answer "Who are you?" That's just cold of me, but won't that be funny. So let's just say Hinata replaced Sakura in this scenario. Would you be afraid?

Yeah, it would be funny and definitely cold from Kishi XD

Nop. Not at all. Hinata isn't in the same boat as in how Naruto sees Sakura. I'm saying that cause he's the hero, and the characters are directly related to him on how the manga goes for him. As for Minato saying something for her, if he wants to compare her to Kushina, we all know that can't happen since she isn't like her. If he wants to say something like " Thank you for taking care of him " and such, well, I can say that I would be disappointed if he didn't meet Sakura.

Pretty much that's it XD

Edited by T XD, 18 May 2013 - 08:18 PM.

[sushi.]

You know those romance movies in the states..right? They have a common line saying "I can see the way he/she looks at you". It happened for instance in Dear John. It's a classic. And I can really see the way Naruto and Sakura look at eachother, that's a great thing considering they are drawn on paper! XD

[T XD]

You know those romance movies in the states..right? They have a common line saying "I can see the way he/she looks at you". It happened for instance in Dear John. It's a classic. And I can really see the way Naruto and Sakura look at eachother, that's a great thing considering they are drawn on paper! XD

Just imagined Minato saying to Naruto " I can see the way you look at her " with a wink. That's so Minato XD

Edited by T XD, 18 May 2013 - 08:22 PM.

[TouKen4Life3g]

LOL Doesn't sound like a sad thing to me.

Lol

Yeah, it would be funny and definitely cold from Kishi XD

Nop. Not at all. Hinata isn't in the same boat as in how Naruto sees Sakura. I'm saying that cause he's the hero, and the characters are directly related to him on how the manga goes for him. As for Minato saying something for her, if he wants to compare her to Kushina, we all know that can't happen since she isn't like her. If he wants to say something like " Thank you for taking care of him " and such, well, I can say that I would be disappointed if he didn't meet Sakura.

Pretty much that's it XD

Well ok then. Just be glad that it's Sakura on the scene. Unless, Kishi can jump cut and somehow replace Sakura with Hinata in that position. Kishi may say, "Well, remember anime makes up move for her? Well I decided to use her medical one!" Won't that be a shocking moment. You know, I do think we will get another arc, because where are those kages? It's like leaving room for one more arc. I can't see happy then sad then happy again scenario for an ending.

You know those romance movies in the states..right? They have a common line saying "I can see the way he/she looks at you". It happened for instance in Dear John. It's a classic. And I can really see the way Naruto and Sakura look at eachother, that's a great thing considering they are drawn on paper! XD

That's true. Sometimes I wish they get a montage of them hanging out and by the end, they look like they were going to give in, then an interruption happens, which Naruto remembers not to give in when the time is right. I don't know, I want that Disney magic.

[T XD]

Well ok then. Just be glad that it's Sakura on the scene. Unless, Kishi can jump cut and somehow replace Sakura with Hinata in that position. Kishi may say, "Well, remember anime makes up move for her? Well I decided to use her medical one!" Won't that be a shocking moment. You know, I do think we will get another arc, because where are those kages? It's like leaving room for one more arc. I can't see happy then sad then happy again scenario for an ending.

I think the Kages will either appear at the end of the next chapter, or after a bit like after a chapter or two. I don't think Minato will stay alone for a long time without the rest of the Kage crew.

[TouKen4Life3g]

I think the Kages will either appear at the end of the next chapter, or after a bit like after a chapter or two. I don't think Minato will stay alone for a long time without the rest of the Kage crew.

I should correct myself. I mean the present time kages. What's up with Tsunade? What's up with Yamato? And many more. This really feels like one more arc is coming.

[Atheck]

I should correct myself. I mean the present time kages. What's up with Tsunade? What's up with Yamato? And many more. This really feels like one more arc is coming.

Tsunade is healing the other Kages with Katsuyu presumably. Yamato? I believe the last time we saw him was when he was infused with the Hashirama replica in order to enhance the White Zetsu army's abilities. Is he at Tobi's lair still or was he consumed by the Jubi (similar to how Samui and Atsui were consumed)?

[T XD]

I should correct myself. I mean the present time kages. What's up with Tsunade? What's up with Yamato? And many more. This really feels like one more arc is coming.

I think they're not going to be shown anymore, or maybe we'll see how Tsunade is doing. I really hope that she won't die. As for Yamato, that guy was last seen frozen. He's either waiting to be rescued or will see him safe when the war finishes which will be a plot hole or a surprise from him is coming.

Edited by T XD, 18 May 2013 - 08:59 PM.

[TouKen4Life3g]

My point is that if this is the last arc, conclude many things within this arc. Instead, since Sasuke and others are there or at least getting near, don't you think we should get answers for many things, let alone Kabuto and Anko? It feels open for the next arc. Like for example, they take out Madara and Obito and the war ends. To start off the new arc, we learn the fate of Tsunade. Then onto many developments, which leads to Sasuke as the final battle or at least one of the biggest battle. It feels like we have many things to cover for some reasons, especially the focus being one thing: stop it. So, yeah, it feels like one more arc is coming. I don't know, probably because this volume feels the last of the war arc.

[soraandven]

Just imagined Minato saying to Naruto " I can see the way you look at her " with a wink. That's so Minato XD

yeah that would make a good ns moment i could see them stare then turn away blushing

[FoolishYoungling]

yeah that would make a good ns moment i could see them stare then turn away blushing

Naruto wouldn't turn away.

[sushi.]

yeah that would make a good ns moment i could see them stare then turn away blushing

I don't think it will be that obvious. Just something that adds the pereect amount of drama, then we get some sort of a SS moment before NS is set in stone.

[James S Cassidy]

To be fair, fellas, I am questioning whether Naruto would recognize romance at all. Sometimes he picks up on it and other times he seems to stupid about it even when it is staring at him in the face.

Edited by James S Cassidy, 18 May 2013 - 10:23 PM.

[TouKen4Life3g]

To be fair, fellas, I am questioning whether Naruto would recognize romance at all. Sometimes he picks up on it and other times he seems to stupid about it even when it is staring at him in the face.

Well it depends on his mindset. For all we know, Minato could say it in his head and for us audience, that's good enough. It's not like Naruto would go back on it when it's been said already. That's like writing 101. Anyway, it's not guaranteed that Minato will bring up any Kushina's related. But you know, it feels like the old podcast prediction is coming true. Then again, it's only 3 chapters in.

[KnS]

Interpretation is the epitome of subjectivity. It is only when the author designates one particular interpretation as being virtually apodictic can someone even begin to declare that they were "correct".

Ugh. That's what I meant. I didn't proofread my comment well enough. I totally meant to say, "Even when it comes to things that are subjective like the interpretation of fiction." The not was not supposed to be in there. My apologies.

The disparity in your analogy is that with the relationships in Kishi's manga there have been scenes that can be utilized to reinforce the probability of either pairing occurring.

I see no disparity if my analogy is taken in context. My point was, even in cases of indisputable certainty (i.e., the holocaust or men on the moon) there are those who hold to their own interpretations and theories "that can be utilized to reinforce the probability" of their preferred beliefs. Therefore, since the fate of the pairings in this manga remain unproven -- since they are technically disputable -- it should be expected that believers in non-NS pairings would continue to interpret events in a manner that supports their point of view.

Here's your comment that I addressed:

I can't help but feel that Itachi's words relating to Kushina are going to be to distorted by others to create the impression that Hinata's actions in 615 are what he was implying. Besides that, I enjoyed reading that post, it's very thought provoking.

Perhaps I misunderstood, but your use of the word distorted seemed to imply you would disagree with interpreting Itachi's words in that manner. And yet your overall tone implies that the distortions or impressions created by opposing fans are something we should fear or consider with concern.

I'm saying I see no value in fearing those viewpoints, or in laboring to prove we are open-minded by constantly attempting to validate the interpretations of other fans when we simply don't agree with them. I'm saying leave them to their own judgment, opinions, and interpretations while we have ours.

I guess I just don't see anything inherently wrong with being confident in our collective perceptions, interpretations, and analysis. We might get thrown a curve that changes our analysis of the pairings, but since we do not have artistic control over the story that goes without saying. Or at least I think it should go without saying. I find it both tiring and gloomy to constantly have to add an obvious "but it could still be NH and/or SS" disclaimer to every positive thought or reaction NS fans have to the story.

Recently certain interactions and thoughts were depicted to suggest NH/SS may not be entirely impossible but now we have the possibility of Minato, an individual who is close to Naruto, affirming what many people are presuming will be the parallel with Kushina that Sakura is likely to have. Still, even a parallel to Naruto's mother does not objectify the pairing. It implies a stronger likelihood of occurring but it is not set in stone.

Agreed. Hence my very specific remark, "The story isn't over, and none of us can know with 100% certainty until Kishimoto's final pencil stroke is published."

I am personally disinclined to read the tea leaves, as it were, of every scene. I take a very gestaltist approach to the manga, preferring to interpret chapter events against the backdrop of the whole story rather than as individual moments. So, for example, I didn't see #615 as a pairings game-changer because when I evaluated the specific chapter events along with everything that had already been established, it was significant in certain ways (read: Hinata's development and/or resolution) but not a comprehensive pairings game-changer since I saw nothing new or unexpected from Naruto.

Same with Minato's arrival in the current chapter. I am disinclined to forecast what it might mean pairings-wise, if anything.

Oh please, by all means, feel and express your self-assurances if you wish. But be prepared to rescind your certitude in the event that our interpretation of the manga is proven incorrect.

For one thing, I never said I was possessed of "certitude." The best answer I get from my Magic 8 Ball is "signs point to yes" and I usually get "ask again later." Of course I don't know for sure what's going to happen. No one is. There's speculation that even Kishimoto doesn't know for sure what he's going to do. But that doesn't mean I'm going to worry myself with the speculations of opposing fandoms that I cannot correlate to the story and that make no logical sense to me.

All I'm saying, and all I've ever said, is that based on what I've seen so far, NS is the most logical and probable pairing resolution. And if I'm wrong, then I'm wrong. It won't bother me in the slightest to "rescind my certitude" such as it is, because I'm fully aware that it's Kishimoto's story and they are his characters to write as he wishes.

No, but it would greatly diminish what credence Kishimoto's writing and mentality has left. The other fanbases would be rejoicing, oblivious to the damaging sacrifices necessitated to allow their desires to come true. For the other NS and Sakura fans I wonder how they would react to it.

That strikes me as unnecessarily pessimistic, and the sort of conjecture that I personally intend to avoid until it becomes necessary. I will wait until the story is concluded before I evaluate Kishimoto's writing or any "damaging sacrifices" he may or may not have made.

No matter what Kishimoto does, some fandom is going to cry foul and claim their expectations were abused, right? Why assume it's going to be NS when the Magic 8 Ball says "signs point to yes" for NS? I try to avoid borrowing trouble -- not only because it's a waste of energy, but because I'm in this to have fun.

[James S Cassidy]

Well it depends on his mindset. For all we know, Minato could say it in his head and for us audience, that's good enough. It's not like Naruto would go back on it when it's been said already. That's like writing 101. Anyway, it's not guaranteed that Minato will bring up any Kushina's related. But you know, it feels like the old podcast prediction is coming true. Then again, it's only 3 chapters in.

Let's just hope it doesn't turn into this

http://tvtropes.org/...ObliviousToLove

@KnS and Atheck.

These discussions on "possibilities" and "unknown outcomes" are getting to be a real tiresome ordeal. There is constant times I see hypocritical statement where people say "anything can happen," but at times people say "it could have only happened this way." I think this is where the whole "Is Kishi a good writer" debate comes in because you start to evaluate what "could have happened" to "what did happen." Combine this with what we expect to happen and we go into a total mess of a forum. We also get into arguments about having high-hopes and or assuming something that doesn't happen and lately I have been wondering why even discuss this at all? If all anyone is going to is dispute all the logic you throw at them with the argument of "It is just one possibility" then what's the point of discussion?

Many of times both theories end up being wrong on all counts and Kishi throws in this third option that very few or none seem to think would happen.

This gets even more ridiculous when people go out of their way to try to convince you that "this is the only way it could happen." Yet in a fictional world where the writer makes the rules and at times even breaks them, you start to wonder how can you even predict such things. Then you get asspulls where the situation goes in a direction opposite of what was stated. (Sasuke is out of chakra but still can use heavy chakra abilities in matter of seconds.) We have gone from the point of "Here is what I think what will happen" to "This is how my theory COULD be a possibility and you have to accept that it can happen that way." It's a trying ordeal and I am tired of trying to explain every little detail just to get the point.

I really have a message to anyone from now on who tries to use this argument: "If you're going to throw the argument that "Anything can happen" then don't outright deny the person of what they think is going to happen. Don't preach something and then don't believe it yourself. Don't preach that anything can happen, but say that certain scenes could have only been resolved that one way." Infinite possibilities are infinite, even ones that don't make sense.

Take a look at BioShock Infinites ending and you'll see what I mean.

Edited by James S Cassidy, 18 May 2013 - 11:06 PM.

[TouKen4Life3g]

Let's just hope it doesn't turn into this

http://tvtropes.org/...ObliviousToLove

Yeah, I hope Naruto don't be this way because this is his chance. He sure messed up on the reunion, better make it right.