4869 replies to this topic

[Gravenimage]

another debate..


What do you think guys?

I have to admit that person is proving a valid point however. If Sakura only wanted to convinced Naruto to stop chasing Sasuke all she had to do is tell him to stop going after him. She would have told him that Sasuke has become someone dangerous and everyone is after him and she doesn't want Konoha to have a war with hidden cloud all because of him. My point is instead of telling him that why did she confessed to him why she told him she loves him? because it doesn't make sense there was now need for Sakura to tell Naruto she loves him in order to convince him to stop chasing Sasuke.

But she did told him her feelings and her expression and blushing on both occasion proves that she was being honest and determined like Kishi said. The reason she didn't told him about the rookies decision is because she knows Naruto too well and she knew the news were going to hit him hard it was going to hurt him a lot finding out that his friends from his village have made a decision in killing his best friend. So to me like I have mentioned before she didn't lied to him she kept the truth hidden from him by telling him another truth (her confession). It's true that Sakura wanted to convinced Naruto to stop going after Sasuke and she used her confession as back up to have a greater effect on him (but that doesn't mean that she was lying in her confession) even if the effect that had on Naruto was negative something she wasn't expecting.

When Sakura hugged him she knows him too well that she knew what to say to him in order to convince him to stop his crazy chase on Sasuke. She put his dreams on the line all to stop chasing Sasuke (remembering back when team seven made their introductions mentioning their dreams). Sakura knew his dream to be acknowledged by everyone in Konoha and become Hokage that was exactly what she told him when she hugged him. In order to convince him she put his dreams on the line, it was like putting on a balance his dreams and going after Sasuke to bring him back to the village. The bad news are that Naruto didn't took it lightly and the way Sakura said in her confession didn't sound very convincing plus the situation she chose to tell him was in the wrong place at the wrong time. That's why so many N/H and S/S fans namely S/S fans are all claiming that she was lying and that she was using Naruto's love for her own benefit especially with the N/H fans that 90% of them are Sakura haters.

To me this is another plot twist from Kishi to mess with our heads after so many development to N/S all of the sudden he makes a move to make it look like it's going back to the S/S path when in truth it's not. This is probably a move from Kishi to deepen even more the N/S development a couple must always face all kinds of hardships that's what true love is all about. In love there will always be good times and bad in a relationship and the reality is.

True love is both pleasure and pain but they will continue to stay together experiencing all kinds of hardships as well as the good times and the bad together. What doesn't kill them only makes them stronger and closer than ever. Sounds corny but it's true.

Edited by Gravenimage, 17 January 2010 - 05:34 PM.

[pinkheartsyellowstars]

Part 2 of my debate post guys, I was greatly stunned by her.

First of all, you have to look at the context where and when the things were said by Sakura.

Naruto has shown undeterred mission to bring back Sasuke. He has been trying since forever. Sasuke means a lot to him. If Sakura thought that a simple confession would stop Naruto from going after Sasuke, she is either:
- don't understand Naruto and his personality
- don't give Naruto enough credit for his tenacity and drive

Naruto has shown not give up even in impossible times. If she had noticed Naruto enough, she would have notice that nothing would stop Naruto from going after Sasuke.

So by this sense, her initial intention of stopping Naruto from going after Sasuke was wrong.

Next, her timing of her confession. She should have put more thoughts into the confession. They have just survived an Akatsuki invasion. Konoha was almost destoyed and Sasuke is in deep trouble.

Naruto was shown to be focusing on increasing the Sage Mode to go after Sasuke before Sakura came.

Her sudden confession makes me thing that her original intention was to make Naruto stop going after Sasuke, not getting to love Naruto.

If she had put more thoughts in it, and realised how much Naruto loved Sasuke as a brother and have confessed after Naruto had saved Sasuke, it would have been more believable and considerate.

The above is my stand on the background leading to the confession.

Next, you points:

Quote:
All those things she said ("You've been by my side all along... When I can touch you like this, I feel at peace..." ect.), they're true. They can be proven in the manga. So that, first of all, proves she's not lying.
She said this after she explained why Naruto should not go after Sasuke and why she don't love Sasuke anymore.

She is making it look like:

Since Sakura not love Sasuke, Sakura love Naruto

Thats is what she is driving at. Look at Yamato's reaction. Look at Kakashi's reaction. They should give a clue about hw they felt about the sincerity of the confession.

If I would confess to someone, I would focus on why I like them first. Not why I don't like my ex first.

Quote:
She went there intending to bring Naruto back to the village and save him from harm. That in itself is one of the most considerate things she's ever done. Ever.
She is being selfish by trying to be unselfish.
What Naruto wants and needs =/= what she wants. Naruto has made it clear that Sasuke means the sky to him.

Does she think that Naruto would ever be happy by abandoning Sasuke? Would Naruto even think of that?

One thing she should ahve known about Naruto is his drive and tenacity.

The simple decision to try to stop Naruto going after Sasuke shows how much Sakura understand Naruto.

Quote:
I can't help but wonder; What if Naruto had believed her? They'd be going back home together, Sakura's confession fresh on their mind. That right there is just...
Make no mistake. If Naruto went back with her back there, Naruto will not be Naruto.

What has the previous Four Hundred and Fourty Eight chapters told you about Naruto. Would Naruto ever do this. Will Naruto ever even give a thought about abandoning Sasuke?

Most importantly, do you think Naruto is that shallow? Do you think he would b happy doing this.

He stated that he would rather remain a fool than to become smart to abandon Sasuke. He would rather die than to forget about Sasuke!

That shows again, how much Sakura knows about Naruto.

Quote:
Even if Sakura WAS lying, wasn't it for the greater good? She's smart, and she wouldn't dare purposely hurt Naruto, especially not after she said "I won't make any more mistakes." She wanted to save Naruto. To protect him from the truth. (And NH/SS/SN/ANS fans interpret "protecting from the truth" as lying, as if they, SS especially, have anything to be proud of in the Truth Department )
I hope this is not what the confession was reduced to. Even if she was lying? Should we even accept her lying? Naruto had always been true to his feelings. He never lied to further his own cause.

Heck, he did not lie to save Sasuke!

What Sakura did was unforgivable in my opinion. She knew Naruto had feelings for her. And worst, she used this as leverage to manipulate him against saving Sasuke.

If Naruto had accepted the decision right there and went with Sakura, they would face a very awkward and unhealthy relationship based not on mutual understanding and mutual trust but on lies.

Yes, it might succeed for a little while. But ultimately, there would die in old age, regreting the decision. I cannot picture a happy Naruto who abandon Sasuke. Would you want that kind of Naruto?

She should have gone another way around it. Again, this shows the lack of trust and understanding from Sakura towards both Sasuke and Naruto.

Quote:
In a nutshell; Sakura got blamed and criticized for "hurting Naruto" when it is exactly the opposite of what she was trying to acheive. I think she was good up to the point where she dissed Sasuke (who dissed them first ) just to futher convince Naruto that Sasuke was an unreachable criminal. The only thing that put a wrench in her plan was...
Let me ask you this. What do you think is the main theme of this manga?

Is Sasuke 'dissing' Naruto and co. reasons justifying Sakura's supposed confession? Does Sasuke 'dissing' them means that they should kill him like every other ninja out there?

She didn't got blame for hurting Naruto. She got blamed for trying. What did she even thought of that? Thought of Naruto abandoning Naruto?

Did she apply her own shallow think of Sasuke to Naruto as well? Did she think 'since I can easily forget Sasuke so Naruto would as well'?

Quote:
Naruto's false image of her and Sasuke.
What?! There is no false image of her to begin with. She wasn't true to her feelings back in Part 1. We had to look at inner Sakura to find out how she really felt.

If Naruto ever had a false image of her, she created it. Not Naruto. She had been idolizing Sasuke since foever for whatever reasons. I will admit she was twelve then, but even now, she based her confession on how she could not love Sasuke. Not how she loved Naruto. A difference.

Quote:
This is the guy who thinks that somewhere, deep inside that abyss lies a Sasuke (that frankly never truly existed) that they thought they once knew and never even considered that the girl of his dreams could love him back. The very same guy that is stuck in the past. What he needs more now than anything is a wake up call. Something to bring him into the present. Something that says, "Hey, Naruto, Sakura really loves you and Sasuke isn't coming back."
The same Sasuke who spared all the sound Nins from death even though Orochimaru ordered him to kill them?

I think Sasuke truly never left his humanity aside. It was Naruto, from his year of time with Sasuke had confidence in. Naruto rightly believed that the Sasuke he knew would not kill indiscriminately.

Sakura on the other hand...
Did she knew of anyone Sasuke killed? She didn't. Yet, she gave Sasuke a death sentence.

Quote:
The perfect way to achieve both of those in one sitting? Have Sakura prove her love to Naruto while at the same time showing how fargone Sasuke is?
Question is what made her think Naruto would give up on a 'fargone' Sasuke?

She either had a very warped view of herself and her self perceived importance or totally not understand Naruto.

Quote:
Though I don't think so. Kishi stated many times that Sakura'd surpass Tsunade, as she won't be able to do that six-feet-under. Even if Sakura did die, Naruto would not pull a much hated "Autumn Sky" and simply switch to Hinata. Not only would he be too heart broken (something he does NOT need any more of) but that would automatically make Hinata the rebound girl. ("Sakura-chan died so I guess you're my consolation prize." Of course, the NHers would be making banners and gifs and fics of that like it was true love forever.)
I don't think Sakura will die though. She don't deserve to...

Naruto would definetely not switch to Hinata! He is and never will be that sort of person. He would be grieved, yes. But he would aspire all the more to bring back Sasuke.

Conclusion:

Sakura did not understand Naruto. She misjudge his loyalty and his tenacity.

Sakura did not really intended the confession as genuine.

She did not have faith in Naruto's ability

I think that while Sakura don't deserve to die, she certainly don't deserve Naruto now. Naruto is the most pure hearted being I can know off. He deserve someone who truly loves him and shares his aspiration. Someone who would continuous support him and not abandon him like how he has continuously support those around him and not abandon anyone he found hope in.

A relationship is based on mutual understanding and mutual trust.
I don't think Sakura have either.

The one I was arguing with is from a Anti Sakura fan. (p.s) I had use some of Frotty-chan's recent post.

Edited by pinkheartsyellowstars, 17 January 2010 - 05:39 PM.

[ciardha]

..oh I agree, Graven
But I still dont catch their drift,

It can take on a negative intrepretation, saying women are shallow and change who they love on a whim. That's the way the antis are using it, saying Sakura is shallow in her feelings.

There are classic quotations in the west that say basically the same thing as that proverb, it's not a mindset limited to Japan:

Woman is ever fickle and changeable- Virgil

Woman is always fickle - foolish is he who trusts her- Francis I

It is like a woman indeed to take rapture before the fact is shown for true. They believe too easily, are too quick to shift
From ground to ground- Aeschylus

Tons of songs in the west over the centuries have lyrics about that too from "Greensleeves" to "Runaround Sue"

Edited by ciardha, 17 January 2010 - 06:02 PM.

[RedDelicious]

No, it means her heart is ever changing like the autumn sky. It means she is unpredictable in her emotional state.

I think this is a case where we have to find out what it means in Japanese culture.

Without knowing what Kishimoto had in mind, I would agree with RyrineaHaruno. Saying that her heart is not static, and can change (compared to 3 years ago), is not the same as saying that her heart is continually & ever changing.

If I would confess to someone, I would focus on why I like them first. Not why I don't like my ex first.

The reason Naruto didn't accept the confession is because he (wrongly) thought she was still "Part I"-in-love with Sasuke, despite Sakura pointing out that it wasn't so. So trying to correct Naruto's misconception seemed to be utterly necessary. Naruto didn't give a reason why Sakura would not love him, he was fixated on her "ex", so to speak.

Out of curiosity, are the people who are ripping on Sakura for withholding some of the truth, also blasting Naruto for withholding the truth about Sasuke's motives?

[Gravenimage]

Part 2 of my debate post guys, I was greatly stunned by her.


The one I was arguing with is from a Anti Sakura fan. (p.s) I had use some of Frotty-chan's recent post.

Wow that anti Sakura fan is really not analyzing anything at all he or she is letting his/her hatred for Sakura cloud her/his judgement I'm pretty certain Kishi has to differ on everything he/she just said.

Edited by Gravenimage, 17 January 2010 - 08:34 PM.

[RyrineaHaruno]

Wow that anit Sakura fan is really not analyzing anything at all he or she is letting his/her hatred for Sakura cloud her judgement I'm pretty certain Kishi has to differ on everything he/she just said.

The Anti Sakura fans, tend to do that don't they. Its like they cant accept she a better person than what they believe her to be.

Edited by RyrineaHaruno, 17 January 2010 - 08:15 PM.

[ciardha]

I think this is a case where we have to find out what it means in Japanese culture.

Depends on the speaker- since it was Sakura saying it about herself, I think it's pretty clear it was just a self-deprecating action in hopes that it would reach Naruto and calm him down from being angry at her.

[catsi563]

It was more though about Sakura telling him that her heart had changed. it was a little self depreciating. kind of the equivalent of her saying "well you know how girls can be."

but the essence of the comment was that she was saying ive changed. ive grown from the little girl and am now ready to see you as more.

As sincere as the confession was it wasnt meant to be her final confession to him. It was as honest as she could be at the time and given the circumstances. but her real confession to Naruto is yet to come, and wont come till after shes had a chance to confront Sasuke one last time.

[ciardha]

It was more though about Sakura telling him that her heart had changed. it was a little self depreciating. kind of the equivalent of her saying "well you know how girls can be."

but the essence of the comment was that she was saying ive changed. ive grown from the little girl and am now ready to see you as more.

Exactly That's why it didn't bother me that much. I was getting exasperated at Naruto too!

[Gravenimage]

It was more though about Sakura telling him that her heart had changed. it was a little self depreciating. kind of the equivalent of her saying "well you know how girls can be."

but the essence of the comment was that she was saying ive changed. ive grown from the little girl and am now ready to see you as more.

As sincere as the confession was it wasnt meant to be her final confession to him. It was as honest as she could be at the time and given the circumstances. but her real confession to Naruto is yet to come, and wont come till after shes had a chance to confront Sasuke one last time.

You're right it did sounded self depreciating which is the reason why N/H fans have come to hate Sakura even more. So Hinata confessed to Naruto trying to protect him from Pain but she failed and yet the N/H fans calls it an act of true love and when they see Sakura confessing to Naruto their hatred for her grew a hundred times more. They started bashing her more saying that" she's using Naruto's feelings or she just wants him to stop chasing Sasuke or she likes Naruto because Sasuke isn't there but if she sees him she will go full fan girl mode and will tell him she loves him and not Naruto."

I also believe her confession was prelude of the her real confession in the future I am certain it will happen.

[firegirl]

but what made me think was she was fake smileing while saying that, that must of made them think it was a desprete lie

[ciardha]

but what made me think was she was fake smileing while saying that, that must of made them think it was a desprete lie

Because she was self-deprecating and fake smiling to hide her growing irritation at not getting through to Naruto.

[socermania2]

The entire Confession is up for discussion and can be interpreted many ways

@Ciardha --Click here to view--

Even if SasuNaru goes with the manga's theme, it doesn't matter.

The pairing is dysfunctional.

It's one sided.

It's unhealthy.

For it to work, Sasuke has to undergo a MAJOR character change.

And i could go on and on... but you get the chizz.

Edited by socermania2, 18 January 2010 - 03:26 AM.

[fireandice]

In my opinion, I think we are reading too much into Sakura's comment alluding her heart to an autumn sky.

She was trying to get it into Naruto's head that the possibility that she no longer loved Sasuke romantically was not some earth-shattering, impossible event because Naruto was still living in the past. She was trying to tell him, a woman's feelings can change, nothing is ever set in stone, just by using a known proverb.

@pinkheartsyellowstars

Regarding the person whom you were debating's post, can I say ?

Honestly, to all those saying about mutual understanding and trust, blahblah, yes these are all such nice, flowery ideals that we would all like to- and actually should- and would be able to uphold in a relationship between a man and a woman 100% of the time. That's how it would be in an IDEAL world. But the world of Naruto is not a utopia, and the situation involving Sasuke has gotten seriously screwed up.

I seriously don't get the "Sakura doesn't have faith in Naruto" thing- she certainly had faith in him when he was fighting Pain and Tobi. And then the whole "How would Naruto feel about abandoning Sasuke?" This person fails to realize that Sakura's decision was because she cares for Naruto. She realizes he is hurting himself trying to go after Sasuke- which is becoming so futile considering now he doesn't even want to come back, which is why she tried to stop him. And honestly, I think us readers have to admit Sasuke really looks beyond redemption, and Naruto has been too unrealistic about trying to save him. Naruto has to realize in this case, he can't continue chasing Sasuke at the expense of Konoha- and himself- putting himself at risk over the Akatsuki's desire for the Kyuubi.

And in fact, Sakura knows Naruto too well. That's why she never told him the truth. She knew he would never agree to kill Sasuke. In my opinion, I think she knew deep down that even if she freed him from the burden of the POAL, Naruto would still insist on going after Sasuke- and she was right, wasn't she?

And the nitpicking about Sakura not focusing on why she liked Naruto instead of her ex-crush first, need we be reminded of the context??? The main reason for her confession was to firstly convince Naruto she didn't love Sasuke romantically anymore. Why is this so important? Because Sakura feels it was wrong for her to allow Naruto to feel indebted over fulfilling the POAL because he loved her and wanted her to be happy- to Naruto, he thought what would make Sakura happy was bringing Sasuke back.

That's the real reason why she emphasized so much that she could not love Sasuke anymore. Of course, Naruto himself wants to bring Sasuke back too, but as seen from the conversation between Sai and Naruto, his failure to fulfill the POAL weighs heavily on him.

I get annoyed with all this sanctimonious talk from some anti-Sakura fans who rage at how dare she manipulate Naruto- look, she didn't tell him the truth because she wanted to protect him. She knew how much he wanted to bring Sasuke back, she didn't want him to know the ugly truth that the Rookie 9 + Gai have agreed to kill him. All those who talk with absolute certainty about completely raw and honest relationships and how Sakura is somehow failing to live up to this standard are being unrealistic. Yes, it's important for the relationship to be honest (which I think NaruSaku is, in that both know the other well), but even in the most loving couples, sometimes they may tell white lies here and there.

In my opinion, her only lie was by omission- not telling him the plan to kill Sasuke. Other than that, I believe her confession was real.

Sometimes people lie because they think that that's the best way to protect someone. Itachi, for instance, lied about everything to protect Sasuke from the damning truth of the massacre. Their actions might be for the better or the worse, but it doesn't change the fact that the reason they lied wasn't a selfish one.

Edited by fireandice, 18 January 2010 - 04:18 AM.

[RyrineaHaruno]

Fireandice, I couldn't have said it better myself.

[ciardha]

The entire Confession is up for discussion and can be interpreted many ways

@Ciardha --Click here to view--

Even if SasuNaru goes with the manga's theme, it doesn't matter.

The pairing is dysfunctional.

It's one sided.

It's unhealthy.

For it to work, Sasuke has to undergo a MAJOR character change.

And i could go on and on... but you get the chizz.

Huh? I'm not a sasunaru shipper, I don't get your drift here.

[Devil Keyz]

^^ we know ur not, but socermania2 is a " pro- SasuSaku " shipper, just look at his sig rofl

[pinkheartsyellowstars]

@fire
of course you can say!..
That's a great explanation, Fire, After debating with a Anti SAkura fan, I was stunned in her statement
"Does Sakura have a right to kill Sasuke"?

[Shadowmoon~]

"Does Sakura have a right to kill Sasuke"?

I think she does. Sasuke's an international criminal already, a missing-nin, and has caused multiple problems for the ninja community.

And Sakura is an official ninja as well, so she definitely has the right to "kill" criminals. We'll just have to wait and see what she would do when she finds Sasuke.