363 replies to this topic

[ThroughWithLove]

I don't think profit was in Kishimoto's mind. If it was, he would have actually included a little more romance, which would have been good and less frustrating. Pairings are so... trivial at the end of the day. This obsession that it was done to appease one fan base (Why not throw in a ton more and appease every fanbase, now?), is another of these conspiracy theories that need to stop.

 

Massively disagree. When you've got an entire movie devoted to romance for a Shounen manga, pairings are most certainly not trivial and profit is definitely the end goal (as it should be).

 

 

We don't however, say: "Oh, this pairing will make more money.". That is rubbish, and not really based on anything factual. We need to steer avoid from such conspiracies.

 

 

I'm confused. It's rubbish . . . why? 

 

 

My goal is to critique Naruto in a fair fashion that isn't too leveraged by my NS bias, and bases itself on what I learned in college about creative analysis and reviewing, a more professional approach to it. 

 

I do that as well, though not with anything I learned in college (once you've seen and read enough stories, you get a sense of what constitutes good and bad writing). So have a lot of people of this forum. None of us like that NS didn't happen, but if you read further into our past comments/discussions, we've beaten this series to death with its litany of abandoned subplots, abandoned themes, Naruto's character derailment by his obsession with Sasuke, Sakura's utter lack of character development, etc etc. Many of us could spend pages tearing this series apart without ever mentioning NS. The possibility of NS is simply what kept a lot of us reading when series started getting to Bleach levels of bad.

[ThroughWithLove]

Because Creative Writers/Artists don't put people together thinking about profit. They're weaving a tale, that they enjoy, and also that others enjoy. 

 

 

And it's others enjoying it that results in . . . (say it with me) profit. Profit is the end goal. Otherwise, no need to waste money paying for an editor (or a writer for that matter).

 

 

 

 

The biggest beef of something like that is the plot, the world, and the characters.

And sometimes, the pairings, as we can see from a movie that centers entirely on a single pairing.

 

 

Pairings are trivial in the broadest sense. A great story doesn't need romance to succeed nor pairings. No writer is deciding their fate of the story based on pairing popularity. At least, there is no evidence that was the case in this instance, so we should not be suggesting theories on it.

 

I'm sorry, but the existence of a feature length film centered around a pairing disputes any notion that NH was 'trivial' here. That's the evidence. You're welcome to try and dispute it.

 

 

The -only- abandoned subplot I noticed

 

 

There are a lot. I think we even had a whole thread here designated to discussing them at one point.

 

Here are ten off the top of my head:

 

1. Naruto ending the Cycle of Hatred.

2. Orochimaru wanting to see the decision Sasuke made (War Arc)

3. Sasuke's hidden power that would've allowed him to beat Naruto (Team 7 Reunion at the bridge) (in hindsight, just a lame way to justify why Naruto didn't simply take Sasuke down then and there when he was tired and out of chakra).

4. Akatsuki Rings

5. Kabuto's "It" (more confusing in the anime, when taking into account his 'red eyes')

6. Asuma and the guardians of Konoha.

7. Crazy Tobi

8. Tobi being the 4th Mizukage.

9. Tobi setting up a place for Naruto and Sasuke to fight.

10. Sakura's genjutsu apitude.

 

The themes stayed true

 

 

I disagree. Probably the biggest offender of this is when Naruto appears to be A-okay with dying with Sasuke  at the conclusion of the Team 7 Reunion showdown. Coming in second place behind it is the back-to-back plot-provided power ups due to being Ashura's reincarnation and complete vindication of everything Neji told him when they fought during the Chuunin exams.

 

 there was no derailment of Naruto's character by obsession.

 

 

Again disagree. The example I mentioned destroys everything about the character and then some. Even worse is how positively other Sakura and Kakashi receive Naruto's inane babble (though to Kakashi's credit, he at least, albeity briefly, voices an objection). Made me want to puke.

 

 

Sakura also most definitely developed as a character.

 

 

As far as I can tell, she's back to chapter 3 Sakura by chapter 699. Who knows. Perhaps what we considered be to 'development' was a red herring all along. 

 

 But I'm seeing a lot of reasons on why just be rooted down by wild theories, and that's not a good thing to weave it from. 

 

 

Some of these theories have some meat to them (i.e. editorial decisions being made with profit in mind, which objectively is not a bad thing since that's why these stories get made in the first place). Others are indeed wishful thinking. Neither of which is unique to this forum. That's just the nature of the beast on the Internet in general.

Edited by ThroughWithLove, 11 July 2017 - 10:26 PM.

[ThroughWithLove]

Sakura in chapter 699 was not chapter 3 Sakura. Just because she still has feelings for Sasuke, which have far grown from the chapter 3 self, may I mention, does not mean she has not developed as a character.

 

 

Sakura Chapter 3: Mindlessly loves Sasuke without a reason.

 

Sakura Chapter 699: Mindlessly loves Sasuke without a reason.

 

That's Sakura arc (I guess) in a nutshell. Everything else was either lampshaded, swept to the side or outright forgotten (like a lot of things in this manga).

 

 

Naruto's choice to die with Sasuke is a classic: I choose niether A or B, and wants to save him. It's classic hero. Not abnormal, not theme breaking. Maybe naive, but that's up for debate.

 

 

 

This seems to be a pretty common justification in your line of arguments; if something has been done before in a number of previous works, it's good. This is false. Different genres. Different characters. Different themes. Different motivations. You can't just plug something into one work and expect it to make sense in another. In the case of Naruto, you're basically trying to shoehorn a square peg into a circular hole. This is a guy who doesn't give up, promised he'd bring Sasuke back no matter what and plans on becoming Hokage even if it means never passing the Chuunin exams. Of course it's theme breaking and character-derailing for him to be A-okay with dying with Sasuke. 

 

 

Naruto ending the Cycle of Hatred: He did end the cycle of hatred.

 

 

When and how? 

 

None of the below are subplots: None of these have any innate conflict or progression.

 

 

They're all subplots or key components of them. Also, your definition contradicts the forgotten 'Sage of Six Path's Ninja tools', which you yourself remarked as being an abandoned subplot. If we're gonna have a debate, you'll have to come at me with something besides semanticaga.

 

Finally, the Last centers around a girl and a boy because it is a Girl Meets Boy story format, and Kishimoto wanted to answer the question of how they got together.

 

 

Right, so it's basically a movie centered around a popular Naruto pairing and nothing else. The question is why you insist that it's rubbish to think that this pairing was ever looked upon as a vehicle for profit and further why insist that it's trivial.

 

 The first goal when you're deciding what story to tell, is something that will interest readers.

 

 

Agreed. And this is the first goal because it's the goal that generates profit.

 

So in summary,

 

1. Kishimoto decided he wanted to tell a story about a popular Naruto pairing.

2. Kishimoto determined that it was something that would interest readers.

3. Therefore, Kishimoto determined that it was something that would generate a profit.

4. Therefore, Kishimoto did not believe the pairing was trivial.

 

Pure. Simple. Straightforward.

 

 

Romance had never been done before as well, making it a good working idea.

 

 

Why would something trivial ever be a good working idea?

Edited by ThroughWithLove, 12 July 2017 - 05:15 AM.

[Charger76]

I can agree with some of your points but now I do think you are giving Kishi and SS a little too much credit. Not everything is gonna be perfect and some NS bias is gonna crowd some judgement on rational opinions, but to say there wasn't issues with the end, not even just pairings is a little flawed. Like you, I don't like SS. I understand it isn't a romance manga blah blah, but I do not agree there was enough positive moments that constitute SS, especially for the magnitude these very important characters had in the story. Side characters are one thing, but Sasuke and Sakura, no. There were only a few in part one and even then they weren't anything that showed "love" aside from teamwork that rationalizes saskura undying love for sasuke. And in part two there was only the very end.

I agree the cannon pairings were not out of nowhere and were not that forced, but no doubt Kishi could have greatly reduced the bitterness from fans and kept a lot more, had he dove into more of these issues to set a clearer path and rationalize it better. So Sakura would be a bad women for leaving sasuke to go to naruto? Ok then is naruto bad for giving up on sakura, the person he loved throughout? Is saskue a bad man (besides the obvious villain part) for getting with girl his BF loved? (Probably poor examples)

I agree some people are a little too biased and one sided when in arguments, but they do have a basis for them and there are issues that were not discussed and were ignored. You'd think some of the post series novels would clear some of things up, but they didn't and in some cases added to the confusion. For me sakura hiden and gaiden did that. I was left wondering why they were even created.

[ThroughWithLove]

The Last was created to explore romance, not a particular pairing. That is the emphasis I am trying to make here. It didn't matter so much who the girl was, it was Hinata because it made the most sense and that was where the manga was going with the selection of who would be Naruto's wife. The writers thought that viewers would enjoy seeing it, that it would be fun to write, and that it could be successful. They were right on all 3 fronts, though naturally, most from our fanbase might disagree with the first.

 

 

Wait, so just to see if I'm understanding you correctly, the The Last: Naruto the Movie is not about Naruto and Hinata getting together; it's not about a particular pairing?

 

 

Naruto did end the cycle of hatred. Obito lost his hatred, Madara was defeated, Sasuke turned over a new leaf.

 

 

If you can point out to me where it's stated that the cycle of hatred has been ended, I'll gladly concede your point. Otherwise, I'm afraid the defeat or reform of several antagonists in no way resolves the issue Jiraiya and Pain spoke about. To my understanding, there are still antagonists on the horizon for Boruto to face (not that it matters since it's a separate manga).

 

Kakashi outlines Sakura's feelings before the battle of Naruto vs. Sasuke. 699 wasn't for no reason. 

 

 

Quite the opposite actually. Kakashi's position is infamously stated as "Love doesn't need a reason." Kishimoto quite literally lampshaded the key problem with Sakura as a character.

 

 If you are concluding she has feelings for no reason you may be missing some key part 1 points, as well as some part 2 points that leave that conclusion empty.

 

 

By all means, you're welcome to enlighten me on what exactly I'm missing. Whatever cite, make sure it is actually stated in the manga and is not just you're own extrapolations / head-canon. 

 

You don't have to like SS (I don't),

 

 

Why don't you like SS?

 

but Sakura's feelings are validated. Sakura's arc has little to do with Sasuke however, and is of personal growth, thus her battles in part 1 with Ino, and later alongside Chiyo, and her later confrontations with Sasuke, Fake Confession, and overall change of her view from both Naruto and Sasuke.

 

 

Sakura's arc has everything to do with Sasuke. The personal growth you mentioned is a result of what she alleges as her desire to save him as well not need to rely on him. Her confession is a result of her desire to kill Sasuke herself as opposed to letting Naruto continue to be burdened. 

 

That said, her arc had more potential that what I just outlined and there were several seeds sown throughout the story that could've allowed her to progress further as a character. Unfortunately, all of that either gets ignored or forgotten and chapter 693 renders it all irrelevant, ultimately putting her back to her chapter 3 self (who by the end of said chapter, had realized the need to stop treating Naruto so badly). Thus, in theory, you could get the same character arc resolution for Sakura by omitting everything between chapter 3 and 693.

 

 

Let's assume your definition is right. If all 9 (The 1st was not abandoned) are lousy ideas/no room for them/won't work, and the author does something else, it's not bad.

 

 

Chekov's gun disagrees. Ideas should never be introduced without a reason. It wastes the reader's time and is indicative of poor planning on the author and editor's part. One of the big problems with Naruto is that it's chock full of examples like the 10 I provided. 

 

 

I don't call them subplots because they're dialogue based, and technically Orochimaru's was also resolved if we are going with that definition, he failed to see it until after he got out of the Tsukiyomi.

 

 

If the author had no intention of doing anything with it, he should not have brought it up. Very simple. What you call a resolution here is nothing more than convenience on the author's part. As is the contrived Orochimaru's resurrection in general, which serves no purpose outside of enabling Sasuke to fight side-by-side with Naruto in already bloated story arc. 

 

Basically, why I am saying yours aren't plot points, is that they aren't -major-. The Sage of Six Path's weapons, on the contrary, are big, rare weapons

 

 

Nah, that sounds like semantics. The Sage of Six Path's was referenced once and only once at the time and we knew absolutely nothing about them. Calling it major while calling everything I mentioned 'not major' is the textbook case of wanting to have your cake and eat it. Rather, we agree on what constitutes a subplot. So rather than engaging me with semantics, you should either explain how my examples were not indeed abandoned, agree that they were abandoned or move on to a different area of discussion. It won't hurt my feelings in the slightest whether or not you respond every single point I raise.

[ThroughWithLove]

Sorry, yes, the Last is about how Naruto and Hinata end up together, a needed stepping stone to fill in what took place between 699 and 700. My disagreement was on the business aspect, particularly since the SP team discussed many options before they presented the romance idea that Kishi shot down. I see nothing wrong with this.

 

Alright, so then the last is indeed about a particular pairing (NH)? Good. Then would you agree with me that Kishimoto and SP, in making a canonical feature length movie that is about a particular pairing, did not believe the pairing was trivial?

 

 

 

My point is they are not subplots at all, they are merely things the character is saying, possible plans for them, that don't come into fruition because of other rising acute tensions.

 

 

 

Problem is that you are splitting hairs in what constitutes a subplot (semanticaga!) despite having given an example of an abandoned subplot that would not be an abandoned subplot by your own definition. The Sage of Sixth Path Ninja tools is "merely things the character was saying", "possible plans for something" and didn't come into fruition because of other "rising acute tensions." Tenten (an irrelevant character) and the shop she had zero plot significance and were used as loose ends at best.

 

 They are seen encased in 700, but we don't get any other relevance for them. It looks like they were intended to be used but never were, which is fine.

 

 

Wasting the reader's time is never fine. With proper planning, this wouldn't be an issue. With proper planning, Kishi would've already known how had intended to have the heroes prevail over Madara and wouldn't need to put a plot coupon in the shelf just in case he can't come up with anything else.

 

Of course there will be new villains. I am defining the cycle of hatred being between the nations themselves. The nations are at peace, practically unified and working together. We don't need this said, we -see- it. If we're defending this as the hatred in individual's hearts and the ensuring of peace, Boruto is more or less the continued task of this, if an endless task, because there will always be a villain around the next corner, else we would not have a story to tell.

 

 

If we're taking the actual lore into account here, there have been various periods of peace in the Naruto universe. Pain, Obito and Madara's point is that the hatred will never actually end (which is why it's a cycle). The narrative doesn't actually directly address whether Naruto has solved this problem or is even making the effort. Instead, the manga just . . . ends. And hell, given what we see from Boruto in the future, we know there is still evil out there on the horizon, so I'd venture to say that Naruto has not been successful.

 

Here's the thing, these are published weekly. A few chapters later, Kishimoto looks at what is incoming and realizes he can't fit in something, or what he wants won't work with his flow. Should he continue with what he started? Heck no. Let it fade.

 

 

If you don't care about having a well written/transitioned story, sure. Good writers, however, plan ahead and avoid this problem entirely. Eichiro Oda (One Piece), Nobuhiro Watsuki (Rurouni Kenshin), Hiroumu Arakawa (Full Metal Alchemist), Kōhei Horikoshi (My Academia) and many many others have all produced great works free and clear of abandoned subplots and as smoothly transitioned as possible. So it really depends. If the manga author is taking his/her readers for granted, then sure, introduce a bunch of random subplots and "let it fade" when you have no idea what to do with them. 

 

 

An analyzer can go back and point out this abandoned subplot, but the thing is, abandoning it does not make it bad. You'll see this occur in weekly series or volumes because sometimes they look at past material's build ups for later on and just don't want to use it because it's not good enough.

 

 

I'm well aware of the constraints and difficulties in producing a weekly manga and my sympathies goes out to all of those who have tried. Nonetheless, bad writing is bad writing. And no amount of sympathy is going to change that. Now in Naruto's case, what makes the abandoned subplots so bad is that it's a routine thing. This manga is clouted with a lot of instances of things that just don't matter and can easily skipped over without missing anything of value.

 

 

Naruto doesn't do that, it sticks to what it is about: Naruto gaining the acknowledgement of those around him, which he gets to infuse towards the end to stop the Akatsuki, Obito, Kaguya and save Sasuke with everything he learns through this work.

 

 

 

Nah, suffice to say, acknowledgement stops mattering after the first timeskip. Those thoughts and feelings are dashed (or at very least heavily pushed to the side) once Naruto gets swallowed by the narrative black hole which is Sasuke. The mere fact that we never even get to see the dude become Hokage in the manga is a symbol of everything that's wrong with the notion that "Naruto sticks to what it is about." It doesn't. It sticks to whatever the author is in mood for it to be about (which is why Naruto goes from thinking fate/destiny is BS to being 'the destined child').,
 

 

 

and further arguing that it does not harm the quality of a weekly series at all in abandoning these potential plots. 

 

 

When abandoning subplots becomes a routine thing, it does. People even made it and other bad habits from Kishi into a meme. Where do you think the term asspull originated? 

 

 

 

Kishi doesn't start up the Zabuza arc and abandon it, nor the Gaara Arc, or the Pain arc. This is why I am adamantly disagreeing with your list of subplots that were abandoned

 

 

None of those arcs are subplots, however. They each constitute the main plot. However, a lot of ideas and subplots within them either do get forgotten or outright retconned. Which hey, you're perfectly entitled to disregard or accept. That's your prerogative. This is afterall, just a Shonen manga created to appeal to young boys. That said, there are plenty of superior works out there (a lot of them which happen to also be of the Shonen genre) that don't make any of the mistakes I've attributed to Naruto. So the bar is for great storytelling is a heck of a lot higher than Naruto has ever reached. A shame too as this series had the potential to reach and surpass it.

Edited by ThroughWithLove, 12 July 2017 - 08:53 PM.

[Illnevergiveup3]

when did Naruto "move on" from Sakura-Chan?

[Yojeveka]

when did Naruto "move on" from Sakura-Chan?

 

When SP retconned his feelings in The Last. Other than that, he never did on screen. 

[Illnevergiveup3]

 
When SP retconned his feelings in The Last. Other than that, he never did on screen. 

The Last? You mean the non canon spin off parody of Naruto? Can I get an answer from some official material? :)

[ThroughWithLove]

I think that's subjective ultimately, on the quality of the series. It is undoubtedly popular and successful however, so it's writing level is marginally better than the competition in at least an entertainment fashion, objectively. Anything else is up to subjective determination. This is why I am careful to say in my opinion, Naruto is good but not great.

 

 

 

Every criticism I've attributed to the series in this thread has been objective. Derailing your themes is objectively bad writing. Derailing your characters' development is objectively bad writing. Abandoning subplots left and right is objectively bad writing. Retcons are objectively bad writing. Storytelling is a craft we've cultivated for thousands of years. As a result, we've gotten pretty good at it to the point where there is a right and wrong way of doing things. And much like boxing, storytelling is a sweet sweet science.

 

You mention the success this series has spawned over the years, but this too is unpersuasive as we can see from the success of series with objectively subpar stories that have accumulated a great deal of the success (Sword Art Online: a series that owes its success mostly to its unique premise). Naruto is a battle manga marketed towards teenage boys first and foremost, so the fights and abilities tend to play a big role in its success. A story should never be evaluated purely on popularity.

 

 

Yes, by the definition I am asserting, the Tenten subplot is not a subplot. That is actually an error on my part, and I shouldn't have given it that title, after reviewing what a subplot is. The Tenten event is more equivalent to Shikamaru planning on finding Pain's location.They figure it out, but it's ultimately a baton pass to give Naruto the information, and a tiny piece that adds onto the main plot, rather than ever being a subplot that functions on its own.

 

 

 

I'm glad you see the problem with trying to dismiss my examples as not being subplots while claiming the 'Sage of Sixth Paths Ninja tools" is a subplot, but it doesn't alter the fact that you're simply trying to split hairs with semantics. The substance of my point is that introducing new ideas with no plan/intention of following up on them wastes the readers time and is therefore bad writing. You could swap out the term "subplot" for something else and the point would remain the same.

 

A subplot is nothing more than a secondary branch to the main plot. It can be brief. It can be long. It can be abandoned right after it starts. For example, at the conclusion of the team 7 Reunion showdown, Naruto was asked by Kiba why he didn't take the opportunity to finish Sasuke off (presumably KO him). Naruto responded by informing him that Sasuke had some hidden power/ability that would've enabled him to be victorious notwithstanding the fact that he was winded and fresh out of chakra. At this point, the subplot of "How is Naruto going to beat Sasuke despite these hidden abilities?" is created. The subplot gets abandoned as these hidden abilities never get referenced again.

 

When I used the word "Trivial pairings", I was speaking to the whole of Naruto, not the movie itself. I.E., pairing fans make up a part of Naruto, but they do not make up a significant part of Naruto, and the focus of Naruto is not on pairings, so they are trivial to the story as a whole, as we can all agree on, Naruto is not a romance. The Last -is- a  love story, and that is the difference on why it is more focused on, because that is the type of story it is.

 

 

 

I think what you mean to say is that the pairings are not of high priority when it came to publishing these chapters in a magazine aimed at teenage boys. Otherwise, you don't simply go from trivial (manga) to not-trivial (movie) all of the sudden. Clearly, somebody noticed the wide volume of tumblr posts, fanart, forums, etc devoted to a pairing and decided to cash in on it.

 

Needless to say, this branch of discussion began when you suggested it's rubbish to think author/editors/producers look at a pairing from a financial standpoint (i.e. "We don't however, say: "Oh, this pairing will make more money.". That is rubbish, and not really based on anything factual. We need to steer avoid from such conspiracies). I responded by asserting that this was not the case and cited The Last: Naruto the Movie as proof NH being used as a vehicle for profit. There was then some dispute about what the movie was actually about (i.e. whether it was actually about the pairing), but if we're in agreement that it was about Naruto and Hinata getting together, then I think we can close this book on this branch of the conversation. 

 

I disagree with your assertion that acknowledgement doesn't matter. His continue focus on this yes, pushes him to another unsucceseful bout with Sasuke, but also gives us Itachi/Pain/The other Nations along the journey.

 

 

 

I didn't say he ceased getting acknowledge by others. He did to the point of numerous characters commenting on it how people now acknowledge him. My point was that it no longer mattered for his growth as a character or the development of the central themes. The most clear case of this when he starts going on and on about how he has no right to become Hokage if he can't even save a single friend. His character arc shifted away from acknowledgment and more towards Sasuke (i.e. the narrative black hole of this manga).

 

 

I do agree that the destined child addition was an unnecessary addition.

 

 

Both unnecessary and derailing to the title character.

 

I highly disagree about your assertations of subplots. It is -bad- to continue what you see is bad. Best to abandon and forget.

 

 

It is bad not to plan your story in advance. Best to plan ahead so that you don't have to waste your time or the readers' spitballing random ideas that'll never come to fruition. 

 

 

Example of an actual Subplot would be Sasuke eventually taking down Orochimaru. That has nothing to do with Naruto's story, and that was never abandoned. You could also call Sasuke taking down Itachi another subplot, as Naruto's plot is trying to find Sasuke and retrieve him, which fails. The Killer Bee Plot were he eluded Sasuke's capture, and we find out he survives on an island is another subplot, separate from the main story.

 

 

The first two are part of the main plot and are each their own respective story arcs (both lasting a plethora of chapters). Not sure where you got your definition of a subplot, but any source that would cause you to conclude that the Itachi Pursuit Mission and Fated Battle Between Brothers arcs (got the names off the wiki) are subplots is definitely one to be avoided. Just because an arc does not focus on the main character does not mean it's not part of the main plot.

 

The best way to get a sense of what is a subplot and what isn't is to simply read/watch more fiction. Googling definitions is a farcry from actual experience. But I digress. Semantics don't make for a persuasive argument.

 

 

Finally, if we are defining this as the cycle of hatred, Naruto does achieve world peace by uniting the nations. Yes, a villain is going to return. If you are defining this as no villains ever coming back, then, Naruto's answer of defeating that Villain is good enough.

 

 

 

And again, you want to focus on definitions and such. I don't see why we have to do that. Why didn't the narrative simply address this issue directly? 

 

Naruto did not unite the nations. They united themselves to oppose Madara and remained united throughout Kakashi's reign as Hokage. Naruto has at most helped to maintain the status quo if that's your argument. And as we've seen with Hashirama, the status quo isn't something to be taken for granted given that he too achieved some level of peace during his lifetime.

 

You physically -can't- stop evil from occurring, and I think if that's the reading of it you are pushing

 

 

I'm not pushing anything. I'm simply asking why this subplot got swept under the rug without any inclination of an actual resolution. And of course Naruto's wish idealistic and impossible to succeed in (from both standpoints you're assessing this from by the way, but that's a different conversation). Should've never been elevated into one of his goals tbh.

[ThroughWithLove]

No, how is Naruto going to beat Sasuke is -not- a subplot. .

 

 

It is. You're welcome to dispute the explanation I offered.

 

This may be semantics to you but a subplot is -very- different from just new information. Going into great exposition about everything is not the most entertaining writing, and it's important that the series does not get derailed by every possible new element to explore.

 

 

 

Oh? So the reason Kishimoto never told us anything else about this magical/mysterious secret power/ability that would've enabled Sasuke to annihilate Naruto at the climax of the Kage Summit Arc Naruto despite being winded and out of chakra is because it would've been too much exposition and not entertaining?  This is the same author who spent numerous chapters during the 4th Shinobi War Arc detailing and explaining the abilities of new characters nobody knows of or cares about. C'mon man, that's weak and you know it.

The reason why Sasuke's arcs are subplots, are because they are not part of the Major plot, which we have defined as following Naruto's road to become Hokage. 

 

 

 

No, we have offered no such definition. Naruto's road becoming hokage is merely part of the overall plot. As of the first timeskip, the plot is primarily driven by Naruto's desire to save Sasuke.

 

Please don't tell me to read more fiction, I read fiction everyday. 

 

 

 

If you're going to tell me that two main story arcs are subplots, then you better believe I'm going to tell you that. 

 

 

Major Plot is Path A, Subplot is Path B. Sasuke is a secondary (The Secondary Character), and Naruto is the Primary Character, and Subplots commonly follow the Secondary Character.

 

 

 

Sasuke is not a secondary character. As of the first timeskip, he is the antagonist. His arc is crucial to the plot. In fact, Kishimoto got so bad with this almost to the point of parody (SasuxKishi shipping!). Secondary characters are characters like Kiba, Shikamaru, Rock Lee and Shino.

 

Retcons are not necessarily bad writing, they're a tool a good writer can use to get away with changing something to their satisfaction, especially with a satisfactory in-setting reason treated by the characters.

 

 

 

Rule of thumb: If something results in the readers time having been wasted, it's bad. Retcons do just that. Clever writing involves working with the tools you have and getting your intended result without erasing even a smidgen of prior continuity. 

 

 And EVEN if every singular element of story-telling was "bad", subjectively, one can rate the quality as they see fit, because the weights of each element of writing differ, and you also must account on what the series does well.

 

 

 

From a storytelling perspective, what the series does exceedingly well is everything from the prologue to the Sasuke retrieval arc. What the series does well (albeit a number of flaws) is the Rescue Gaara arc, the Hidan/Kakuzu arc and the Pain arc (overall, though upon additional readings, it's a lot more flawed than you think). What the series okay is some of its side characers (Shikamaru and Might Gai had good character arcs throughout the entire arc). Everything else is either flat or outright terrible. Long story short, started out strong, kept strong but started faltering, started limping, completely collapsed and then started rolling on the floor in agony begging for somebody to put it out of its misery.

 

Purely from a battle manga perspective, the fights started to suck for me when they started to obsess over power levels and transformations. Though for the actual target demographic, they stayed good throughout.

Naruto does plan in advance. We can tell, and Kishimoto has asserted, that he built to the Naruto and Sasuke finale. It's important to be flexibile. A good writer plans but also changes as they go.

 

 

 

 

He plans some things, but most things? Not really. The 10 examples I provided demonstrate this. Even for the Naruto vs Sasuke finale, according to his own interviews, he had no idea whether it was going to be enemy fight or friendly rivalry match at the end. 

 

We have to go by definitions because if you are complaining that villains are still occurring in the series...

 

 

 

All I'm asking is why the narrative did not resolve the subplot of Naruto resolving the cycle of hatred. It's not our job to look for definitions. It's the stories job to explain what happened. Unable to find where the narrative does this, you have attempted to create your own explanation (Naruto united the 5 hidden villages and if a new villain does pop up, Naruto will just take care of him!). Maybe it has been resolved. Maybe Naruto is actively working to come up with a way to insure permanent peace behind the scenes. We have no idea.

 

it's how stories work? Defining things is important so we can outlie what they mean on a writing analytical level.

 

 

There is determining what something means on an analytical level and there is rampant speculation. Supposing how Naruto may be dealing with the cycle of hatred is speculation and head canon. The cold hard fact remains that the narrative does not address it and you are simply asking for definitions so that you may invent your own explanation. And perhaps if we were writing a fanfic or something, that'd be fine. But you're attempting to defend the narrative's inability to explain how the cycle got resolved or what Naruto is actively doing to resolve it, so it's a different story.

 

In general subplots do not follow protagonists, as a rule of thumb for your subplot defining. Think of side quests in video games, they're mini-stories that aren't necessarily part of the plot, but may be connected to it, or the setting, or to an involved character etc. They aren't what you are defining it as. 

 

 

Subplots can and often do follow the protagonists. You bring up video games, so I'll give you a video game example. The optional romances in the Dragon Age, Mass Effect, Baldur's Gate and Witcher games are all subplots that follow the protagonists efforts to win an NPC's affection. 

 

Your definition falls apart because you are trying to compare completed/developed subplots with ones that have been abandoned, which would in essence enable you to claim that abandoned subplots don't exist in any medium and that anything that 'appears' to be an abandoned subplot is just extra dialogue, extra exposition or (my favorite) "a new element that that needs no further explanation" and whatnot." And hey, I get it. You love this series to death. Good for you. But if we're going to be even half as objective as unbiased as you keep telling others to be, that kind of thought process simply doesn't fly.

 

 

 

We have to be careful with terms like de-railing, retcon, inherently negative terminology for this reason. For one they're slang and unprofessional, but for two they're often hyperbolically used.

 

 

 

I don't really care to be honest. Although I've entertained the semantical side of our conversation, my position on it is the same as it has been at the inception of this discussion. It makes no difference what terms you wish to use here; the actual substance of my position is still the same. We could interchange any of these terms with "beep bopping" and it wouldn't make the slightest difference.

 

That and I just don't see how terms like 'derailing, retcon and inherently negative terminology' are unprofessional.

 

 

I forgot to address why I don't like SS:

 

I'm not a fan of the sort of archetype of relatable female falling in love with the dark brooding beast. Book wise I'd compare it to fanships like Hermoine and Draco getting together, or Katara and Zuko if I were to discuss a cartoon comparison in what I mean, or Beauty and the Beast if you want an actual happened example. Basically you have this light/tough/smart/strong female fall in love with the dark jerk. The dark jerk reforms and becomes a good guy. It's classic teenage girl angst romance fantasy, just never dug it. But it's also a very popular style for the age group, perhaps because it shows healing through love, a sort of power to bring people to do good without relying on power, but by using your heart and leading by example. When written badly, it comes off as abusive (Twilight), but when written well, it comes off as sincere, human, and touching. SS isn't in the abusive realm, you have to note Sakura and Sasuke weren't together until after 699, so their attacks on each other were mostly as enemies. But it's not well written enough either for me to be charmed, and I don't think this genre could easily accomplish this as a proper romance could.

 

 

 

You don't like the idea, but you do think it makes sense for Sasuke and Sakura to get together? And I imagine you also believe it's good for her character, no?

Edited by ThroughWithLove, 13 July 2017 - 04:42 PM.

[ThroughWithLove]

The examples I listed above of subplots are -not- main plots. The main plot singularly follows Naruto. 

 

 

It doesn't which is why you get multiple story arcs almost exclusively devoted to Sasuke (something I don't like, but it is what it is). Naruto is not a simple "King Arthur needs to go slay the dragon" sort of story and so your assessment that anything not singularly following Naruto is faulty on its face. As of the first timeskip, the dymanic between these two characters is what drives the story.

 

 

No, again, how Sasuke is going to beat Naruto is by definition not a subplot. Sasuke has quite a few new abilities by the time their fight happens as is. 

 

 

None of which have anything to do with whatever this unknown/magical ability was.

 

 

 

 

Retcons by the way, are -not- a waste of time. It is a matter of execution.

 

 

Retcons eliminate prior continuity, thereby literally making the prior continuity a waste of time from the standpoint of storytelling.

 

 

"Waste of time" is completely subjective, and as the reader's time is being spent being entertained, it's not exactly a sound complaint here. 

 

 

If you're willing to concede that the 10 examples I provided have no intrinsic value beyond the mere potential that anyone can be entertained by anything, I'm a-okay with that. Incidentally, I find the notion of eating dog feces to be repulsive, but my tastes is nonetheless subjective since there is actually an entire subculture of people who like ingesting their feces. So in that sense, I should never say eating fecal matter is repulsive.

 

Incidentally, you might want to cease criticizing people for how they praise NS and attack NH/SS on this forum. It's all subjective after all.  

 

 

We don't need to -see- everything happen, and for some of those questions of thingsthat happened that people want to know more about, they are answered in future material/anime coverage.

 

 

I see no indication that any of the examples I brought up will ever be addressed and I, as a reader, am most certainly not obligated to go out of my way to make/invent justifications for why something did not get addressed/developed in the story. We could use your reasoning to conclude that every story ever made is flawless.

 

Okay, winning a character's heart is (usually) not a subplot. There might be a side quest introduced (Subplot here), but the actual wooing isn't, that's more Chronic Tension, not Acute. Acute is where plots spring up from, Chronic is the underbelly that adds tension from already existing circumstances events. People get this confused a lot, mind. 

 

 

 

The fact that there are two different kinds of tension has nothing to do with whether winning a character's heart is a subplot. Tension is simply a matter of setting the pace and tone of how the main plot or a subplot is going to progress. In the case of wooing love interests, you get both (i.e subtleties indicating Dragon Age's Morrigan is captivated by you despite her constant protestations of love being a weakness, eventually reaching the point where comes to accept that she is in love with you). 

 

I don't think Sakura and Sasuke getting together is good or bad, persay.

 

 

Well lets start with that. Why don't you think it is either good nor bad?

[ThroughWithLove]

Tension sets  tone a little, but not the pace. The plot and actions of the characters dictate if that tension is further built up or released. I.E., the chronic tension is the relationship of Naruto and Hinata, and the acute tension is the falling Moon and the kidnapping of Hanabi. The pace is something the author sets in his or her balance of exposition, dialogue, and action, the medium of story-telling, and the length of the overall event.

 

It sets the tone and pace in the sense of what is happening immediately (Hanabi getting kidnapped) and what is gradually being developed over time (Naruto and Hinata's relationship). But enough about that. You were trying to distinguish between subplots and chronic tension, seemingly implying that the two are mutually exclusive. This is false. I gave the example of Dragon Age Origins optional Morrigan romance, which is its own story (i.e. subplot) secondary to the main plot.

 

 

 

My reasoning isn't something to jump into flawlessness either. Some stories get -too- detailed, some lack detail, some have vivid scenes, some have bare bone scenes, some have deep characters, some deal with simple archetypes. 

 

 

It sure is something to jump into flawlessness, my friend. For example, you say some stories get too detailed. Well that criticism is completely subjective since some people are entertained by lots of detail. You say some stories lack detail. Well that criticism is invalid as well since the author did not want to bore readers with too much exposition and since he/she might add more details in a sequel story. You say some stories have bare bones scenes. Well that criticism is also invalid, since some people are don't like getting bogged down by any exposition that goes beyond bare bones.

 

See what I did there? Every defense you've made in response to my criticisms throughout this conversation, we could use it to determine that any series is a masterpiece. Again, I get it. You love Naruto and that's perfectly fine. But if it's your own mission here to make NS fans go beyond their biases and start "analyzing" things objectively, you might want to lead by example.

 

 

For Sakura and Sasuke getting together, it provides a sort of end for their relationship, basically this girl that loves someone despite their darkness. It's not bad, as that it resolves it, but it's not quite good, because it does this jump to get there, and we need a few stepping stones in the middle. Sasuke's action in 699 is one piece of a few more we need to make it understood that this was the absolute direction. It could, likely would have been done if we saw Sasuke's journey, but unfortunately, that was not to be.

 

I get the lack of development, but aren't you at all concerned about the fact that we don't know why she fell in love with Sasuke? Or that Kakashi's answer to this question is that 'love does not need a reason"?

[ThroughWithLove]

Tension and plot are mutually exclusive, though they often work in tangent together. A romance story's plot isn't falling in love, that happens in the course of it, yes, and nor is that the subplot. Gradually this tension and attraction with the hero creates this explosion of love, a later fight, etc. When Chronic tension is really done well, you can feel its movement from scene to scene, but it is never, ever a subplot. 

 

 

Maybe there is a language barrier here or something. I can't really tell. I'll tell you what: Hold that thought for a moment. Lets do this: What is the plot of The Last: Naruto the Movie? Also, what is the plot of one of the many (you pick) subplots in Naruto?

 

 

 

Okay, so my points about detail are all subjective conclusions raised by objective reasoning. Each of these has weights. If I write: He jumped a wall. The wall has no detail. If I write, he jumped a white wall, I can see a white wall. If I write, he jumped a white picket fence, I can see the fence, it's shape, and its color. Most would point to the latter as having better quality than the former two, despite it being taste, there is a consensus laid out by the rules of writing that we follow. What if I wrote: he jumped an old white picket fence on twelfth avenue, six blocks from the family business, that incompletely stretched around the house's backyard. Now I see an old, I imagine worn white picket fence, that I know sets the location near their family business, and the fence is incomplete. Is that too much detail? That depends. If the family business is never mentioned again/plays no part, it could be considered fluffy info to be cut. If we are in a running scene, that he is running from someone, we need to condense our sentences so we get a matter of urgency. But if we're setting the scene, and the business plays a part, and the incompleteness shows a trait, the detail is relevant. These conclusions are subjective, but they come from understanding on what makes writing work, through objective truths such as grammar, plot structure, scene-setting, senses using, etc.

 

 

I see what you're saying, but you've basically put yourself in a corner in making the case that everything I've brought up is relative/subjective.

 

Yes, "he jumped a wall" is indeed more detailed than "he jumped a white wall", but so what? You response to my criticism that Kishimoto wasted the readers' time with abandoned subplots (or ideas . . . or beep-bopping, if you don't like the term subplot) was literally ""Waste of time" is completely subjective, and as the reader's time is being spent being entertained, it's not exactly a sound complaint here." Perhaps you didn't think about it at the time, but this is truly a loaded remark to the point of being a two-edged sword. In regards to "X jumping a white wall" being better than "X jumping a wall", I can use this exact reasoning to say that some people don't like the extra detail. In fact, this is most certainly the case for readers who are still learning how to read (thus are better able to grasp the story the simpler it is written) and people who plain don't care whether the wall is white, black, blue or brown. Heck, I've gotten criticized on fanfics for being too detailed in how I describe a simple stroll down the street from readers who were solely reading my fic for pairing/shipping purposes despite writing a detailed author's note at the beginning of the fic that the fic would not solely revolve around said pairing. (i.e. effectively telling me to "get to the good part already!"). 

 

If we take the relativistic approach, what makes writing work in your eyes may not be what makes writing work in someone elses. If we take the relativistic approach, then grammar, plot structure, scene setting, senses using, etc are by no means objective truths and are all subject to interpretation depending on the eye of the beholder.

 

But it's not just the "everything is relative" mindset that is at fault here. You've made other kinds of retorts to my criticisms of Naruto, such as giving out-of-universes excuses/justifications for any particular perceived shortcoming.  The author couldn't be bothered with any additional exposition (which flies in the face of what you've just told us about detail), it might get addressed in a sequel (something you could use to defend every story that has ever been told) and that the series popularity makes all of its faults a-okay (see Sword Art Online).

 

 

 

Returning to our new discussion though:

 

Sakura's love for Sasuke began as a crush, and developed into a sort of selfless love, a caregiver to something broken, that endured despite his darkness, that was ready to kill him to save him, as sweet and dark as that sounds. Sakura struggles with being unable to save him, and that is the pain we see when she goes to hurt him, or in 693. Her love isn't about a need for reward. Likely, you could point it to forming in part one to what it is, though when is never stated, nor truly important. 

 

Lets ignore for a second that none of this is really articulated or even implied in the manga and focus on the substantive issue here. That Sakura's love did indeed begin as a shallow crush only to develop into a selfless love over time to the point of becoming a caregiver to something broken; that her love is akin to the Florence nightingale effect? Why is this love romantic? We could certainly extrapolate all of that from her character and still reach an ending where she doesn't actually get into a romantic relationship with Sasuke. As of 698, Sasuke is saved, so mission complete right? Would you agree with me that her actually getting with Sasuke is unnecessary for her character arc, as presented in the manga?

Edited by ThroughWithLove, 15 July 2017 - 02:25 AM.

[Yyubie]

Just want to post this here since it's well done animated by the game developer , i'm really amaze by how cyberconnect2 can create magic, putting the anime team into shame.

[ThroughWithLove]

Plot of The Last: Naruto the Movie Summed up: Stopping Toneri from destroying the world.

Subplot in Naruto: Konan defending Pain's eye against Obito.

Also more relevant to the Last: Subplot: Shikamaru/Sai figuring out how to get inside the Moon.

Kakashi persuading A to not fire the cannon, and pretty much everything going on in Earth while the Rescue Team works on the moon.

 

Note these subplots are with secondary characters. This is why your examples of abandoned subplots aren't abandoned, nor subplots. There is no problem introduced. Obito saying he wil lfind Sasuke a battiefield isn't a problem Orochimaru wanting to see what becomes of Sasuke later ins't a problem. The cannon blowing up the moon and all people in it is a problem. Stopping Obito from getting Pain's eye is a problem. Hopefully that makes it more clear to you what a subplot is.

 

Gotcha, so if:

 

The Plot of The Last: Naruto the Movie  is stopping toneri from destroying the world. 

Acute tension: Hanabi getting kidnapped.

Chronic tension  Naruto's relationship with Hinata.

 

Then how do we not reach the below conclusion when considering whether subplots their own acute/chronic tension?

 

Subplot in Naruto: Konan defending Pain's eye against Obito (Obito retrieving the rinnegan to be more precise).

Acute Tension: The fight. 

Chronic tension: Konan coming to terms with herself and her aspirations.

 

You mentioned Shikamaru and Sai, but that one is no more a subplot than Thor and Hulk tagteaming random Chitari robots in The Avengers movie or Batman/Wonder Woman holding Doomsday off while Superman is retrieving the kryptonite lance in Batman vs Superman: Dawn of Justice. Not really a secondary strand in the story.

 

 

 

Note these subplots are with secondary characters. This is why your examples of abandoned subplots aren't abandoned, nor subplots. There is no problem introduced. Obito saying he wil lfind Sasuke a battiefield isn't a problem Orochimaru wanting to see what becomes of Sasuke later ins't a problem. The cannon blowing up the moon and all people in it is a problem. Stopping Obito from getting Pain's eye is a problem. Hopefully that makes it more clear to you what a subplot is.

 

 

This is a weak defense and I don't blame you for not even making the effort to apply it to any of my other examples (especially Naruto resolving cycle of hatred, which is biggest and most obvious problem by far).

 

In regards to Obito saying he will find Sasuke and Naruto a battlefield to fight on, the simple act of an evil guy with ulterior motives actively (or expressing interest in) pulling the strings for our hero/heroes is a problem in itself. It makes the reader wonder "What's this guy up to? What is he trying to pull?" Might have made for an interesting subplot had the author not lazily pulled the plug on it. Same goes for Orichimaru and whatever his agenda was prior to the gutting of his character.

 

 

Sakura getting with Sasuke is a possible, satisfying conclusion. It isn't unnecessary, more that it is one of several ways to resolve it. Sasuke could have said he doesn't deserve it, concluding things a different way. Or Sakura could have been more uncertain. But with the theme of forgiveness as is, and the characters reactions and actions up to this point, 699, the only real romantic development in the Manga, works satisfactorily enough. I think there needs to be a bit more within 699 in the time jumps. (699-700 is okay).

 

Essnetially: It was necessary to resolve it, but Kisihmoto could have delayed or resolved it differently had he written 699 differently. Frankly, Naruto could have ended at 699 if it wanted to, but that would have lent itself to a risk of being unsatisfying, if a bit more artsy. So the inclusion of 700 gives the reader desire of happiness that was wanted.

 

 

If there is more than one way to resolve it, isn't that the epitome of the term 'unnecessary?' And I'm all on board with theme of forgiveness, but forgiveness doesn't really equate to a need to perform the horizontal shuffle, does it? Sakura's love for Sasuke is selfless after all, right?

 

Picture this: With a few edits here and there in chapter 693, we are now at chapter 699 and Sakura surprisingly does not profess interest in tagging along with Sasuke at the end. Instead, we see Team 7 together again in a peaceful and jovial scene (just like what Sakura repeatedly claimed she wanted to return to) near the village gates prior to Sasuke's departure. Sakura is content as Sasuke leaves and the forehead poking never takes place. We get chapter 700, the timeskip is a mere 3 years later and the only thing that happens  is Naruto's Hokage inauguration, the reactions of various characters, some hints on who ends up with who (everything NOT NaruSaku/NaruHina/SasuSaku). We then get a movie where Naruto ends up with Sakura, Sasuke ends up with Karin and Naruto gets a 'parting moment of clarity' with Hinata. Do you have a problem with this picture?

Edited by ThroughWithLove, 15 July 2017 - 09:00 PM.

[ThroughWithLove]

 

Your Chronic Tension with Konan is wrong. Chronic tensions are ongoing things, not a "realization.", which is actually acute. The fight happens because of it, it's basically the explanation for the acute. Your Acute is also wrong, as its not the fight itself, but Obito's wish to take the Rinnegan which sparks the tale and eventually battle.

 

Your Acute tension is wrong with the Last. The Kidnapping is triggered by something else, which is Hiahsi's refusal to listen to Toneri. Your Chronic however, is correct.

 

 

 

Konan coming to terms with herself is an 'ongoing thing' throughout the subplot, which is why we the get the flashback and her final dialogue regarding the "light."  It's simply a much smaller scale of what you cited as "Naruto and Hinata's relationship."  Obito trying to take the Rinnegan back is  the subplot, per your own statements. The fight itself is literally the surface tension of this brief subplot. That's all acute tension really is.

 

My acute tension is wrong with the Last? Dude, that's your acute tension. I was citing exactly what you said earlier in the thread:

 

Tension sets  tone a little, but not the pace. The plot and actions of the characters dictate if that tension is further built up or released. I.E., the chronic tension is the relationship of Naruto and Hinata, and the acute tension is the falling Moon and the kidnapping of Hanabi. The pace is something the author sets in his or her balance of exposition, dialogue, and action, the medium of story-telling, and the length of the overall event.

 

 

So are we just arguing for the heck of arguing here or what?

 

 

 

What would be the plot for resolving the cycle of hatred? This is -still not a subplot mind, but maybe if you go through with it in outlining where it was supposed to go, you can mark where it was abandoned. But I am going to show you again, that there was no movement, no acute tension to trigger the subplot. This whole point of the cycle of hatred occurred within the plot of Pain, was the question he kept asking. It's more thematic/moral questioning than any sort of plot, basically like a Villain asking a pacifist, kill me to save the world, or let me blow myself up and kill a thousand people.

 

The Obito example isn't a problem, people having ulterior motives doesn't outline a problem. Notably, this would have been plot if it did happen, not subplot.

 

I have no idea where the cycle of hatred subplot was supposed to go nor should I be expected to know. All I know was that it got mentioned and stressed throughout the Pain arc and a few instances afterwards as well before it was forgotten. 

 

Don't agree with the premise that it was merely a thematic tool in the Pain arc as it is what sparked this whole "child of prophecy" nonsense. We also get a problem very similar in the War Arc, which is the "curse of hatred", basically a dumbed down version of the cycle of hatred (hatred between Senjus and Uchihas). Thus, I'm guessing that Kishi realized he bit off more than he could chew with the cycle of hatred and decided to use the curse of hatred instead so that everything would be resolved with just another rasengan.

 

Evil guy wants to do evil stuff is enough to let us know there's a problem. We could learn more as the subplot developed. Think of the villain Ego from Guardians of the Galaxy 2. Good example of the "What is this guy up to?" approach. 

 

 

 

As for "unnecessary", well, there a lot of different ways to end a story. It's up to which do you want to do in some creative cases, as there are lots of possibilities. Kishimoto chose what he did because that's what he wanted to do. He could have had the world explode as an ending, concluding everything in darkness. It's less about what is necessary, and more on what you want, then making everything flow and go to that want.

 

The author can do what he wants, but we're simply talking about what was necessary for Sakura's character and what would've been good for it. You seem to agree that Sakura getting with Sasuke is not necessary for her arc, right? Your position is that she wanted to him to be saved from his inner darkness. Mission accomplished as of chapter 698, no?

 

Also, do you have any problems with the hypothetical I gave?

Picture this: With a few edits here and there in chapter 693, we are now at chapter 699 and Sakura surprisingly does not profess interest in tagging along with Sasuke at the end. Instead, we see Team 7 together again in a peaceful and jovial scene (just like what Sakura repeatedly claimed she wanted to return to) near the village gates prior to Sasuke's departure. Sakura is content as Sasuke leaves and the forehead poking never takes place. We get chapter 700, the timeskip is a mere 3 years later and the only thing that happens  is Naruto's Hokage inauguration, the reactions of various characters, some hints on who ends up with who (everything NOT NaruSaku/NaruHina/SasuSaku). We then get a movie where Naruto ends up with Sakura, Sasuke ends up with Karin and Naruto gets a 'parting moment of clarity' with Hinata. Do you have a problem with this picture?

 

Edited by ThroughWithLove, 16 July 2017 - 03:10 PM.

[VanitasDS76491]

Just want to post this here since it's well done animated by the game developer , i'm really amaze by how cyberconnect2 can create magic, putting the anime team into shame.

Storm 3 uped that with a beautiful recreation of Minato and Kushina death were we see kushina with baby naruto claiming him down with that drum thing Minato got for him.

[ThroughWithLove]

Your 698 picture works, except Sakura does love Sasuke, and it is love the reason why Sakura wants to save him. I don't think the love dies after he is saved, which is why Kishimoto chose to have Sakura do what she did in 699. He could have done other things: Have her not act on it because it wasn't the time, It's not necessary they end up together. But this element exists, and needs resolution in some way. If everyone dies, as an exaggerated example, it's resolved: It can't happen, because they're dead. Sasuke could have said that he wasn't worth her love as another example, or Sakura could have seen that his healing would take too long, and it could be explained that despite her love for him, she didn't want to pursue a relationship.

 

 

I agree that Sakura does love Sasuke and that her love does need resolution in some way. However, I would submit to you that if the author is willing to allow a movie devoted to wrapping up all of the pairing issues, this can readily be done in a fashion that makes sense and that results in NS. But before we get into that, I'd like to note that our concern here is coming with a way of resolving Sakura's arc that makes sense, doesn't disregard anything throughout the past 698 chapters (aside from editing some of the dialogue in 693) and syncs perfectly with series' themes.

 

 

 

The 699 scene works very well by the way, because of its loving meaning, and Kishimoto is great with symbolism.

 

The problem with the 699 scene (and SS in general, as presented in the manga) is that it makes it to where Sakura doesn't really have an arc that extends beyond the first timeskip. Yes, you've explained that she's gone from a crush on Sasuke to have a selfless desire to save him, but even if I am to grant that (and I don't, since Kakashi more or less destroys any and all character progression by saying Love doesn't need a reason!), all that would mean is that her arc ended in part 1 when she begs Sasuke not to leave and assures Naruto that they will both save Sasuke. When we look to the entirety of part 2, it's all (or rather, as of the Kage Summit Arc), it's all 'cry cry cry, Sasuke I love you and I want to save you, cry cry cry, etc etc." She gets some big moments that created the potential for something else (i.e. trying to kill Sasuke), but in the end, it doesn't amount to anything and there's no real sense of character progression in sight. You could bring up her training with Tsunade as well as well as that time she did well against Sasori (arguably Sakura's shining moment in the entire manga), but in the end, it amounts to nothing and the girl still has to watch Naruto and Sasuke's back, insecure about her self-worth. 

 

As to symbolism . . . we'll get to that in a moment.

 

 

The problem with the hypothetical picture is it is ignoring the direction of things taken from the last hundred or so chapters. I read this horrible fanfic where the writer made the sole change to the Last at the end, having Hinata tell Naruto that its Sakura who he should be with, then some cheesy "I love happy endings" line from Hinata. But you can't make that sole simple change, it requires a significant rewrite from the bones up.

 

The problem with your picture is Sakura does love Sasuke, and that does need resolution. It's not necessary for it to end in being together, that can be implied, or denied. But it exists. Karin is different. Her affection is more physical focused attraction, though she also still cares for him. It's a byproduct of another, less mentioned Karin/Sakura love triangle, though I still note that Kishimoto tends to play the hands he has no intention of using more comically, and less seriously in general.

 

Which is why this parting moment of clarity doesn't work for Naruto and Hinata, either. There's no romance in the manga, but there is development. Everything in the manga builds the skeleton for the romance to spring from.

 

To get an NS ending, you would have to kill the triangle and re-work the last three hundred chapters at the least. The Fake Confession would notably need to be different, 615 would probably need to have no hand holding or result in Hinata's death instead, and preferably no love triangle. But most of all, you would have to have an author that would want NS, and Kishimoto didn't. To get a really good NS ending, the Manga would have to be rewritten from the Chuunin exams arc to not show so much NH, IMO.

 

I won't call any fic horrible without actually reading it first, but I do agree with the sentiment that you can't just up and flip some dialogue around to make an NS resolution make sense in the context of the Last. 

 

Here is how you make NS happen (1) despite the fake confession and (2) chapter 615 as well as simultaneously fix and (3) resolve Sakura's character arc all in one fell swoop: Three words: The Bench Scene. One single moment in chapter 3 can be used to fix everything. By taking the biggest weakness with Sakura's character (never explained reason for loving Sasuke), she can be written to have gone from having a crush on Sasuke to falling deeply in love with him as a result of Naruto foolishly pretending to be Sasuke, saying the words she had yearned to hear as well as nearly kissing her. All these years, she thought it was Sasuke who did all of that and was determined to be with him no matter what due to what she saw in Sasuke's eyes all those years ago. That's why she romantically loves Sasuke, according to our little rewrite here anyway! 

 

Bada bing, bada boom, after some drama, action and self-reflection, Naruto goes for broke and takes a second crack at what he did in chapter 3, only without the henge jutsu this time. This is perfect for the character as it brings things full circle, highlights his growth as a character by placing in the same situation he was at the start of his journey, only does things the right way this time. Following a simple "That was you" from Sakura, we get this:

 

 

 

Now THAT'S symbolism.

 

 

 

 

So is this: 

 

 

 

Around the time this happens, everything else comes into fold. 

 

Fake Confession: Sakura finally realizes why she was getting angry with Naruto about him accusing her of lying to herself. Because deep down, she was speaking the truth when she confessed. She just didn't realize it at the time. She also recalls what Yamato said to her on the Tenchi Bridge that one time, realizing that part of her has known the truth all along. At long last, Sakura is able to realize what love truly is. And though she will always think fondly Sasuke and remain endeared that he saved from his own inner darkness, Naruto is the one she loves and her heart is finally at ease after all of these years.

 

 

 

 

Chapter 615: Hinata loves Naruto. This is indisputable. But she also loves him enough to the point that she wants him to be happy first and foremost (which is arguably the way Naruto felt about Sakura throughout the manga). And so when Naruto reaches his lowest point in our version of the film, it is Hinata who is there to comfort Naruto as well as to tell him to get back on his feet and to be the ninja she admires the most and not give up on Sakura. Naruto then gives Hinata a tender embrace, thanks her for always supporting him, apologizes to her for never having had the courage to approach her after her confession and tries to comfort her with a "In a different life . . ." line, but Hinata sends him on his way. We then get a scene of a jealous Kiba approaching a tearful Hinata, possibly hinting at something in the future. Nonetheless, Hinata's arc is complete and, still retaining her love and admiration for Naruto, is now able to move forward without him and stand on her own two feet (which is what she needs if she's going to finally fix the problems with the Hyugga clan), arguably having surpassed the strength she saw in Naruto. At the beginning, she could walk behind him. At the end of the manga, she was able to walk alongside him. And in this film, she is finally able to walk ahead of him. Perfect conclusion for her arc, IMO.

 

 

Themes: The next generation is always stronger than the previous and this is the especially the case for Naruto, who has succeeded his master in every area he failed:

 

 

 

 

Sasuke: His character is complete as of chapter 698. The only role he'd serve in the film is assisting Naruto both in combat and indirectly helping to wake Sakura up to her true feelings. This dude, however, doesn't care about romance. At very best, he could have at a scene at the end where he smiles at his former teammates from afar before leaving the village and reluctantly being followed by a persistent Karin. If anything were to happen between them, it'd be in a sequel.

 

Summary: I disagree with your conclusion. To get an NS ending, you simply have to bring up stuff that happened prior to the last 250 chapters and tie it all together with what happened in the last 250 chapters. Chapter 3 basically allows us to get Sakura to come around no matter what and Sai's multiple comments about Naruto as well as Naruto's actions in chapter 3 and throughout the manga make it pretty easy for him to get on board. The only issue is dealing with Hinata and I'd say my conclusion for her character arc is a lot more admirable than what we got in the canon. And unlike with what we got in the canon, you wouldn't need a genjutsu scarf or newly made contradictory flashbacks. Don't need to rewrite the chuunin exam arcs (or any arc for that matter). 

 

At the very least, I feel if Hinata died in 615, the manga could have worked towards a different ending. But you would still have this Sakura and Sasuke issue, and to resolve that easily you'd have to have Sasuke die. But this all in all would make a much darker Naruto ending, as this fails one of Naruto's great goals: Saving Sasuke. So the author's choice works, and its good, not ground breaking original awe defying amazing, but it's good.

 

No need to kill Hinata. Just need to be willing to confront the reality that people don't always get what they want. And in Hinata's case, I'd use that in a way that actually betters the character and gives her a more robust arc (which is honestly the way it should have been done for Naruto in The Last movie as opposed to that candy-pants "you only loved me due to your rivalry" nonsense).

 

No need to kill Sasuke either. Honestly, I don't understand why the prospect of not ending up with the first person you like is something people have so much trouble with when Naruto himself did not get the person he liked in the actual canon. There, the solution was not to kill Sakura, so what's the deal?

Edited by ThroughWithLove, 16 July 2017 - 08:14 PM.

[Charger76]

^ I would have loved that rewrite to be canon ThroughWithLove. Yeah you definitely need some resolutions, then again Kishi missed a few in the canon anyway, but it would have worked out. And like I have said in another post it would complete the series and character development arcs very nicely. Also like you said the main point of resolution with SS would be sakura because while in part one sasuke stated he cared for her (never said romantically, he was also referring to his entire team) you could easily write him off in part 2 as not being interested in sakura until the head poke. He did say naruto was his last and only friend a few chapters earlier. So it would be sakura getting over sasuke. So you would need sakura to get over that i.e. "Discover her true feelings" in your version

Yeah I'm also not a big fan of the whole, "girls can't change their feelings, yet guys can" thing that seemed to happen a little at the end. Still not a fan of the rivalry being the reason for his love thing too but it's canon. Idk I just don't like overall how they played narutos feelings as not true feelings yet he actually had in manga reasons to love sakura.

Haha I'm over most things but SS still frustrates me so much and their fans reasonings for their ship can be hypocritcal and can stretch some manga symbolism (obviously it is canon though so technically they weren't wrong). Plus they seem to be a more aggressive base (although everyone has aggressive and non aggressive people in it) and lose their kitten on such small moments. Like some of the boruto and gaiden kitten and how they turn some things to mean the family's ultimate love confuses me.