505 replies to this topic

[sushi.]

If you are fine with a SasuNaru friendship, why not be fine with a SasuKarin relationship? Sasuke penetrated his chidori through Naruto's chest too, and put him through much more than he ever did to Karin. I know a lot of people here don't like Sasuke, but I always get the impression that many people are OK with SasuNaru-bro's.

I get the idea, it's the level over friendship, it's so intimate they even sleep in the same bed. But it's not the point. It's forgiveness. If Naruto should forgive Sasuke, Karin could too. If she forgives him, why not be involved romantically? After the forgiveness, the amount of trust should build up to complete, Sasuke needs to do this with all those important to him. I am counting only team Taka and Kakashi, Sakura and Naruto now. (If he's going to live of course.)

This doesn't count for the people who just want to get rid of Sasuke, because they think it is impossible for him to be forgiven.

Edited by sushi., 07 February 2013 - 08:42 PM.

[narusaku4ver]

If you are fine with a SasuNaru friendship, why not be fine with a SasuKarin relationship? Sasuke penetrated his chidori through Naruto's chest too, and put him through much more than he ever did to Karin. I know a lot of people here don't like Sasuke, but I always get the impression that many people are OK with SasuNaru-bro's.

I get the idea, it's the level over friendship, it's so intimate they even sleep in the same bed. But it's not the point. It's forgiveness. If Naruto should forgive Sasuke, Karin could too. If she forgives him, why not be involved romantically? After the forgiveness, the amount of trust should build up to complete, Sasuke needs to do this with all those important to him. I am counting only team Taka and Kakashi, Sakura and Naruto now. (If he's going to live of course.)

This doesn't count for the people who just want to get rid of Sasuke, because they think it is impossible for him to be forgiven.

The same would apply for SasuSaku, i'm not fine with SK and neither SS, the best for Sasuke would be SasuIno but it's bad for SS and SK because he tried to kill both of those girls, expressing clearly that he does not love them, they can forgive Sasuke but would be bad if they still love him.

And moreover seems that you forget about pain's arc, Naruto did not forgive pain for what he've done to the village he only said "i'll not kill you" but he wasnt able to forgive pain, he only forgive when he ressurrected everyone, then if Sasuke did kill Sakura there for real, i double dare that he would try to continue with the "save" Sasuke.

Because of it i still believe that there will be talk no jutsu and Obito will talk about his life with a short version, Naruto will not forgive Obito for what he've done, there's is when the "Rinne Tensei no Jutsu" comes in.

So....probably the Uchiha's start to get insane/consumed with hatred when their strong love has lost their arrow, in other words the object of their love is gone. Sasuke got consumed by hatred once all his family members were killed. That was level 1.
He got consumed by hatred once again when he saw Itachi relive the death of his family members. Possibly level 2.
He got to the point of insanity, when the love for Itachi that was buried inside him surfaced once he learned how much Itachi wanted to protect him. Level 3.
Gone unstoppable at the site of Danzo, which made him reminisce Itachi. Got to level 5!

I really wish Sasuke was just a psychopathic freak.....with some conflicted mental problems. All this "love" doesn't suit a villain such as himself.

Edited by narusaku4ver, 07 February 2013 - 09:02 PM.

[T XD]

Sasuke in SK is not like Sasuke in SS.

There's no Sasuke in SS cause there hasn't been any pitch of a hint that Sasuke is possibly thinking of Sakura more than just a friend, even in part 1. Whereas, Sasuke in SK has shown some hints and probably a fact, which is the evolving of Sasuke's eyes seeing that Karin is dying when they fought Bee and thanks to 619, that there a possible chance for SK.

Edited by T XD, 07 February 2013 - 09:27 PM.

[kirabook]

That's the thing, I'm not fine with the NaruSasu relationship. The way Sasuke treated Naruto is a majority of the reason why I hate him. I wish Naruto would let him suffer on his own and do his own thing since he doesn't want any help or friends. I don't know why Naruto bothers. I only support Naruto in his search for Sasuke because it's forced onto me throughout the entire manga. But in no way have I ever been ok with it, nor do I want Naruto to continue it.

Just thinking about it reminds me of how terrible he treated Naruto. Naruto wanted nothing but acknowledgement from him, yet he treated Naruto like a second-class citizen the moment Naruto started showing some promise. All the whining and butt hurtness over Naruto getting stronger was just so stupid. Sasuke should have accepted that Naruto was getting stronger and instead of trying to take stupid shortcuts, he should have worked harder than Naruto if he wanted to be stronger than Naruto.

Most of the time, we see him skating along, sitting on his toosh thinking he'd just get everything handed to him in Konoha. Honestly, Kakashi let that attitude continue a little too long. Now Sasuke does get everything handed to him, not on a silver platter, but a golden one. I don't think we've ever seen him work hard for anything, yet he thinks of himself so highly to place Naruto on a lower pedestal? Please. He needed some sense smacked into him a long time ago.

Sasuke doesn't deserve a friend like Naruto, I wish Naruto did not care about Sasuke as much as he does. Sasuke doesn't deserve anything he pushes away, I don't know why everyone in the series wants him SO much. The manga might as well be named Sasuke since EVERYTHING revolves around him, even the main character.

[Qia]

I don't know why I feel like this, but we may- or may not- get a better idea about the relationship that both Sasuke and Naruto have by seeing what exactly it would take to save him. I've never really understood why Naruto sees him so highly though, and I'm hoping that's cleared up then (if it hasn't been already). I don't know if it's only because Naruto didn't have many friends to begin with, and he had no family, and Sasuke basically had that same experience with loneliness, or what...but yea. I'm just going to hold my judgement on that till it's closer to the end.

Edited by Qia, 07 February 2013 - 10:17 PM.

[narusaku4ver]

That's the thing, I'm not fine with the NaruSasu relationship. The way Sasuke treated Naruto is a majority of the reason why I hate him. I wish Naruto would let him suffer on his own and do his own thing since he doesn't want any help or friends. I don't know why Naruto bothers. I only support Naruto in his search for Sasuke because it's forced onto me throughout the entire manga. But in no way have I ever been ok with it, nor do I want Naruto to continue it.

Just thinking about it reminds me of how terrible he treated Naruto. Naruto wanted nothing but acknowledgement from him, yet he treated Naruto like a second-class citizen the moment Naruto started showing some promise. All the whining and butt hurtness over Naruto getting stronger was just so stupid. Sasuke should have accepted that Naruto was getting stronger and instead of trying to take stupid shortcuts, he should have worked harder than Naruto if he wanted to be stronger than Naruto.

Most of the time, we see him skating along, sitting on his toosh thinking he'd just get everything handed to him in Konoha. Honestly, Kakashi let that attitude continue a little too long. Now Sasuke does get everything handed to him, not on a silver platter, but a golden one. I don't think we've ever seen him work hard for anything, yet he thinks of himself so highly to place Naruto on a lower pedestal? Please. He needed some sense smacked into him a long time ago.

Sasuke doesn't deserve a friend like Naruto, I wish Naruto did not care about Sasuke as much as he does. Sasuke doesn't deserve anything he pushes away, I don't know why everyone in the series wants him SO much. The manga might as well be named Sasuke since EVERYTHING revolves around him, even the main character.

Worse is Sakura getting Sasuke, and Naruto who did all the things for her and cared for her while Sasuke did the inverse.
Naruto getting trolled in the end and ending up like a loser.

But srsly Sasuke's development is leading to understand Naruto and the will of fire to a point that he can say that it's wrong while Naruto's development lead to understand Sasuke to a point that he can say it's wrong, this is what makes Sasuke the final villain is the fact that the entire series lead to a conflict between the two and Sakura is on the middle of it.

Edited by narusaku4ver, 07 February 2013 - 10:23 PM.

[sushi.]

The same would apply for SasuSaku, i'm not fine with SK and neither SS, the best for Sasuke would be SasuIno but it's bad for SS and SK because he tried to kill both of those girls, expressing clearly that he does not love them, they can forgive Sasuke but would be bad if they still love him.

And moreover seems that you forget about pain's arc, Naruto did not forgive pain for what he've done to the village he only said "i'll not kill you" but he wasnt able to forgive pain, he only forgive when he ressurrected everyone, then if Sasuke did kill Sakura there for real, i double dare that he would try to continue with the "save" Sasuke.

Because of it i still believe that there will be talk no jutsu and Obito will talk about his life with a short version, Naruto will not forgive Obito for what he've done, there's is when the "Rinne Tensei no Jutsu" comes in.

SasuIno is a crackship. It's not angsty like SasuSaku is, it's empty. There is nothing between them. I personally support Ino with Chouji.

If Naruto is chasing after Sasuke, he must be able to think through it. Because of what I've seen in the manga, even in 618, Naruto still doesn't want to cut off his bonds with Sasuke. That is not entirely the same as forgiving him, I'm aware of that. I just hope that he has questioned himself whether or not he can forgive Sasuke if he comes back to the village.

My post had nothing to do with Pain. I didn't forget anything. My point was that if you're OK with Naruto forgiving Sasuke at the end, I think you would be a hypocrite if you're not OK with Karin forgiving him.(Unless your reasoning for not wanting them together is something else than redemption or forgiveness.) If she does forgive him, I have nothing against them as a couple. Naruto will always be the one Sasuke treated the worst.

Edited by sushi., 07 February 2013 - 11:25 PM.

[narusaku4ver]

SasuIno is a crackship. It's not angsty like SasuSaku is, it's empty. There is nothing between them. I personally support Ino with Chouji.

If Naruto is chasing after Sasuke, he must be able to think through it. Because of what I've seen in the manga, even in 618, Naruto still doesn't want to cut off his bonds with Sasuke. That is not entirely the same as forgiving him, I'm aware of that. I just hope that he has questioned himself whether or not he can forgive Sasuke if he comes back to the village.

My post had nothing to do with Pain. I didn't forget anything. My point was that if you're OK with Naruto forgiving Sasuke at the end, I think you would be a hypocrite if you're not OK with Karin forgiving him.(Unless your reasoning for not wanting them together is something else than redemption or forgiveness.) If she does forgive him, I have nothing against them as a couple. Naruto will always be the one Sasuke treated the worst.

Nope it's not, they barely had any interaction but still she loves him and i said is comparing SK, SS this "crackship" is the best because it's not abusive and it's not empty since it started a rivalry with Sakura and Azuma's last words to Ino was to not lose to Sakura including on love.
I'm not going into details since i do not support this pairing or whatever.

The second bolded yes you forget u were talking about forgiveness and forgot the important detail that Naruto was unable to forgive Pain, so the question is after Neji's death he will able to forgive Obito? If Sasuke kills Sakura, Naruto would forgive him?

Edited by narusaku4ver, 07 February 2013 - 11:56 PM.

[Nate River]

The link was useful XD.

It does show how Karin is better suited for Sasuke. She knows how to handle him. Not submissive.

The exact translation is " no… that’s enough… [of] about sasuke… ".
It still somewhat the same thing cause she, too, said that Karin said "enough" because he betrayed her and hurt her. While, yes, it does show that she have self-respect and that she is strong enough to be assertive about the situation, and that this is one of the things that makes her so good to Sasuke, which I absolutely agree. Though, the " enough " still has the same meaning that is linked to " because he betrayed her and hurt her", we don't know anything more what Karin has thought after that, aside that she acted as a fan girl when she was in prison to escape. That why we need to see them when they are reunited again and what happens after.

In addition, I do agree with her, too, that Karin still loving Sasuke doesn't mean that she has no self respect because she accepted what he did to her, strong and was able to be assertive with her emotions . But, it doesn't mean, till now from what is shown, that Sasuke is a good potential partner. Something needs to be shown to us from that aspect.

See...

I can't get over the whole he stabbed through the chest and left her to die thing when she was at her most vulnerable. He has it in him. That'd might just be a deal breaker if it were me......

I wouldn't give a rip about what was at the core of that. The fact that I know he is capable and willing to end my life is enough. As I've said before, with SK this isn't a speculative issue. She has concrete proof of it.

[Weltall]

So no personal responsibility. Uchiha are victims of their own genetic nature, love is the cause of their demise ? Does that make nagato worse than the uchiha ? I can't believe what i just read. At least tobirama is cool altough he's clearly portrayed as being wrong.

[narusaku4ver]

So no personal responsibility. Uchiha are victims of their own genetic nature, love is the cause of their demise ? Does that make nagato worse than the uchiha ? I can't believe what i just read. At least tobirama is cool altough he's clearly portrayed as being wrong.

This chapter implied it even the whole "discrimination and persecuting' showing the inverse of it on part 1.

Tobirama is pratically assuming this puppy.

Edited by narusaku4ver, 08 February 2013 - 12:28 AM.

[tricksie]

I actually find Sasuke's story more interesting that Naruto's for this reason. Sasuke is still seeking to find truth and more about what he is and what he wants to do. Naruto has done that since Bee trained him. Even now, when Obito's challenging his world view it's coming off really weak and the only who got development out of that was Neji and Hinata. I'm still holding out hope in that confrontation, but we'll see I guess.

Okay...picking up on some posts I wasn't able to respond to earlier....

Sasuke's story is more interesting than Naruto's, unfortunately. The Uchihas are clearly what this whole manga hinges on. And chapters like this one just reinforce it.

Imagine if Naruto was the one this quest, sending out clones to sort through the remains of his clan, trying to decipher age old clues and learning about long-lost Uzumakis who's great power came at a great price. Or possibly some secretive streak in the Namikaze clan that can help him unseal the final power that can bring peace to the warring shinobi world. But none of those things are happening. This story is about Sasuke, his clan and his journey. Naruto's been reduced to reacting.

(Of course, I always hold out hope that this will change. But as we delve farther and farther into Sasuke and the Uchihas storylines, the harder it will be to refocus the story on Naruto in any other way than as the untarnished hero who blows in and saves the day. Ho-hum.)

I also don't think that is what he is trying to tell us. First, that mess is another refutation of the type of philosophy Danzou spouted. Kishimoto is definitely portraying to the Second to be in the wrong.

Which is so strange, because both Danzo and the Second are/have behaved in the most truly shinobi-like manner of anyone in the manga. So it's a story about ninjas, but only the ones with "love" are the winners. But the ones act like true shinobis — those who "kill their hearts," do their duty, never open a sealed scroll and assasinate who they are told — are the bad guys. (Oh, what am I saying — all the 'ninjas' are currently engaged in a wide open battle of organized foot battalions. These are the most un-ninja-like ninjas ever!)

Anyway, I agree that we are heading to a clash of world views, and the Sasuke will come to embody that opposing view somehow. And that this interlude will lay the foundation for redeeming Obito and Sasuke and probably even Madara (if his "love" statement to Obito is to be believed.)

So much favoritism, it is not even funny. And you're supposed to write about the titular character who has a lot of material that has to be covered, yet the favor go towards his rival and all of that info was jammed down in our throats to accept it.

Exactly. The story is revolving around Sasuke. And you've hit the nail on the head with info beng jammed down our throats. To make up for the fact that it is no longer Naruto's story, the audience is being force-fed info from the Uchiha side to keep the plot moving along.

I'm think I getting sick and tired of seeing Sasuke needed sympathy and becoming a "wishy-washy" character when he is, according to Kishimoto's latest interview about Naruto and Sasuke, supposed to be the yang, (doing bad things, becoming a villain, opposite of what Naruto is doing/heading towards in his progression...) After that chapter of Sasuke reunited with his brother, things went downhill. No wonder the Japanese loves Sasuke.

But remember, we can't go too indulged and in depth with this because this is a Shonen manga, targeted in younger audiences. If it was in a different category, then we could talk about the complicated issues.

Kishimoto may say the characters are yin and yang, and he may illustrate them in opposite positions (the image of the two of them overlooking Konoha) but we only know this because we are told it. Not because their two stories are running in tandem with each other until their eventual clash. Sasuke gets loads of development, history and background. He is struggling to find out where he fits into his own life and what he's going to do with his future (or rather, who he's going to attack first). Naruto just gets people around him telling him the same thing over and over again. Oh, and battle scenes. He gets those.

I think this is why I don't ever feel strong sympathy for Sasuke in those scenes where it looks like we should feel something.... Sasuke's story is being told to us at the cost of Naruto's.

And yeah...I go back and forth about why I even care to look deeper as this is a shonen manga. But there is a lot the encourages us to look deeper...and, most importantly to me, the initial thrust of the story has been put to the side, and since I haven't given up on the manga, I am still looking for signs that the plot is going to get back on some semblance of a track.

[xxRomanceGirlxx]

SasuKarin ... I really don't support it. For the longest time, all I've ever seen in it was just a more mature version of SasuSaku. Given how I hate SS, I automatically hated it too. And I doubt it's gonna happen since Sasuke doesn't care about romance. However, I've always disliked it less because it was nice to see how assertive and confident she is with Sasuke. She's never quick to point out his idiotic mistakes or cockiness or insult him in any way despite the fact that she loves him. Compared to all the past Sasuke fangirls who go gaga over him in blind shallow hero worship and how Sakura becomes a submissive, angsty doormat, it's a real breath of fresh air and something I can enjoy.

But seeing some of these posts, my view on it's shifted a little. While I think it's a big if to see SasuKarin is going to be an end pairing, I can grudgingly see it has some basis. The moment where he controlled the Amaterasu flames to save her life may very well mean something after all. But again, it's not enough evidence to really say SK can happen now. For all we know, that could've been an entire friendship moment (Given how Sasuke has shown an incapacity for romantic love, that's what I think). Truthfully, I will say that SK has about as much a chance as NH. It's not dead, but it's not likely either. It depends entirely on the road Kishimoto takes. I need way more evidence presently to claim SK will happen

Tbh, I actually get annoyed when I see NS fans say SasuKarin will happen or are shown to support it. If you hate SasuSaku (which by nature, most do), why would you like it? Karin has gone through hell and back with Sasuke, just like Sakura has. He tried to kill both of them, you can't forget that. Sasuke doesn't deserve the devotion and love they give him. So I'm understandably apalled by NS fans who actually like it, since it's almost as bad as SS. Plus, I don't think we need to side-ship SasuKarin and have it happen when NaruSaku has a nice, fine basis without it. I'm not saying all of us do this, but can't it come off that way to some people if we ship Sasuke with someone who isn't Sakura? It could be argued that we're no different than those NH fans who side-ship SS but don't actually even like it, they just want Sakura out of the way.

My point is, if SasuKarin happens, Kishimoto better do it pretty convincingly. I happen to like Karin as a character and I like the fact that she has enough self-respect for herself to not be a slave to her love for Sasuke and forgive everything he does just because she loves him. That makes her very, very different from Sakura in that area. I just hope he doesn't write Karin as letting him off the hook. I'd prefer to see her be pissed and scream at him for trying to kill her, topping it all off with her saying he'd have to earn her respect and trust again. If that happens, I think maybe, maybe I might like SasuKarin. As long as Sasuke doesn't get everything on a gold platter love-related and actually works for it, I might not hate it as much as I do now.


But actually, I support Sasuke with no one. I can never picture him with anyone unless it's ridiculously OOC and awkward. This man just isn't meant to be with anyone at all.

[redragon88]

@xxRomanceGirlxx

I personally don't like the excuse of "Sasuke tried to kill them so he doesn't deserve her". It's like people choose to forget that Sasuke successfully chidori'd Naruto through his lung during the battle at the valley of the end. If Naruto didn't have Kurama inside him to heal him then Sasuke would've clearly murdered Naruto.

I don't know what conclusions Sakura will use to understand that she loves Naruto more then Sasuke, but of one thing I'm sure of is that it won't be because Sasuke tried to kill her. If Naruto can get past it then I don't understand why Sakura shouldn't.

Sakura should choose Naruto based on his own merits alone. It shouldn't have anything to do with Sasuke being evil. I mean, that's the very reason Sakura's confession felt so uncomfortable. It gave the impression that she was only choosing Naruto because she couldn't get what she truly wanted. It practically implied that if Sauske was good that things would be different and that she wouldn't be confessing.

I may laugh at the occasional joke of how Sasuke shows Sakura his love via chidori to the head, but I don't really use it as a reason as to why I don't want SS to happen. In all honesty the reason I don't want SS to happen is simply because I believe the story implies that NS is going to happen. If NS doesn't happen I feel like the storytelling betrayed be. As simple as that.

My reasons for wanting a pairing to happen are not based on who I think will be the happiest with who (Kishi can make anyone happy with anyone, that's his power), it's about understanding how the pairing is being structured to fit in the story. If NH and SS happen I won't be complaining because I think they're a bad fit, I'll complain because Kishi did a bad job at developing them with the idea of them becoming a couple.

For example, Hinata's development as an individual, I'll say it clearly, I absolutely love it. But when it comes to creating a connection with Naruto that would conclude with the beginning of a romantic relationship, it feels lacking.

To make a mention of SK, to be honest, I only like it because it serves as an interesting dark parallel to NS. Sakura is connected to Naruto's journey and Karin is connected to Sasuke's. Both pairs even had fallouts during the Summit arc with Naruto rejecting Sakura and Sasuke betraying Karin. The development of both pairs came at a standstill after the Summit arc and is still waiting to be resumed. Naruto has barely talked to Sakura and Sasuke has yet to encounter Karin again.

If NS didn't exist then I don't think I would care about SK. I just think it's a nice contrast, just like Kishi did with those panels of Naruto and Sasuke when they both returned to the village for the first time. It took from the beginning of Part 2 until now to show that contrast and yet Kishi didn't forget about it. If he's that dedicated to parallel Naruto and Sasuke then I believe it could be the same with the love interests.

[PhenixElite]

@xxRomanceGirlxx

I personally don't like the excuse of "Sasuke tried to kill them so he doesn't deserve her". It's like people choose to forget that Sasuke successfully chidori'd Naruto through his lung during the battle at the valley of the end. If Naruto didn't have Kurama inside him to heal him then Sasuke would've clearly murdered Naruto.

I don't know what conclusions Sakura will use to understand that she loves Naruto more then Sasuke, but of one thing I'm sure of is that it won't be because Sasuke tried to kill her. If Naruto can get past it then I don't understand why Sakura shouldn't.

Sakura should choose Naruto based on his own merits alone. It shouldn't have anything to do with Sasuke being evil. I mean, that's the very reason Sakura's confession felt so uncomfortable. It gave the impression that she was only choosing Naruto because she couldn't get what she truly wanted. It practically implied that if Sauske was good that things would be different and that she wouldn't be confessing.

I may laugh at the occasional joke of how Sasuke shows Sakura his love via chidori to the head, but I don't really use it as a reason as to why I don't want SS to happen. In all honesty the reason I don't want SS to happen is simply because I believe the story implies that NS is going to happen. If NS doesn't happen I feel like the storytelling betrayed be. As simple as that.

My reasons for wanting a pairing to happen are not based on who I think will be the happiest with who (Kishi can make anyone happy with anyone, that's his power), it's about understanding how the pairing is being structured to fit in the story. If NH and SS happen I won't be complaining because I think they're a bad fit, I'll complain because Kishi did a bad job at developing them with the idea of them becoming a couple.

For example, Hinata's development as an individual, I'll say it clearly, I absolutely love it. But when it comes to creating a connection with Naruto that would conclude with the beginning of a romantic relationship, it feels lacking.

To make a mention of SK, to be honest, I only like it because it serves as an interesting dark parallel to NS. Sakura is connected to Naruto's journey and Karin is connected to Sasuke's. Both pairs even had fallouts during the Summit arc with Naruto rejecting Sakura and Sasuke betraying Karin. The development of both pairs came at a standstill after the Summit arc and is still waiting to be resumed. Naruto has barely talked to Sakura and Sasuke has yet to encounter Karin again.

If NS didn't exist then I don't think I would care about SK. I just think it's a nice contrast, just like Kishi did with those panels of Naruto and Sasuke when they both returned to the village for the first time. It took from the beginning of Part 2 until now to show that contrast and yet Kishi didn't forget about it. If he's that dedicated to parallel Naruto and Sasuke then I believe it could be the same with the love interests.

I pretty much agree there, but i indeed see the murder attempts as a reason why SS cant happen.
We cant really compare the killing attempt on naruto to the one on sakura, since naruto is not in love with sasuke. Its possible in the story that they stay friends with sasuke, but you cant have a working realtionship with someone who nearly killed you two times.

If its about forgiving sasuke, then of course they can forgive sasuke for the attempts, but i cant imagine sakura still wanting to be together with him.

Thats why i think we cant really compare Narutos near death through sasuke with the ones of karin and sakura.

[kirabook]

How is "Sasuke tried to kill her, he doesn't deserve her" an excuse if someone also detests the fact that Naruto still wants Sasuke after all he did to him?

It's not an excuse, it's the truth. In actuality, Sasuke doesn't deserve anything but loneliness. He's done nothing but hurt his friends and the people who apparently love him. I don't see the point of hanging on to such a selfish jerk, friend or lover, but apparently Kishi thinks so so I have to watch Naruto pathetically chase the guy that treated him like dirt and tried to kill him on more than one occasion.

A killing attempt is a killing attempt, friend or lover. It's the same, he tried to take their life away. He tried to kill them in cold blood. There is no difference between killing a friend and killing a lover. Period.

Similarly to the friendship between Naruto and Sasuke, Karin does not take Sasuke's crap unlike Sakura who lets him walk over her. That is pretty much the only reason why SK is slightly less dis-likable to SS, but even still, Sasuke doesn't deserve the attention he gets. I don't know why people are so loyal to him, it doesn't make sense.

Edited by kirabook, 08 February 2013 - 12:54 PM.

[Nate River]

@xxRomanceGirlxx

I personally don't like the excuse of "Sasuke tried to kill them so he doesn't deserve her". It's like people choose to forget that Sasuke successfully chidori'd Naruto through his lung during the battle at the valley of the end. If Naruto didn't have Kurama inside him to heal him then Sasuke would've clearly murdered Naruto.

Two major problems:

(1) Most people here don't support Sasuke's redemption. And even if they do...

(2) It's not murder in the case of Naruto/Sasuke. Naruto ran him down and willingly participated in that fight from start to finish. He was not vulnerable or defenseless. Karin was a defenseless human shield and he ran her through because she was an inconvenient obstacle.

And it's not about "deserving her." He doesn't, but that's not my issue. It's accepting Karin maintaining and willingly running back to a guy who she knows without doubt is willing to kill her because she is an inconvenience. I would not accept someone beating me senseless because they were drunk as an excuse and I would not accept he was just full of hate at the moment as an excuse here. He was in control and did it anyway.

[redragon88]

How is "Sasuke tried to kill her, he doesn't deserve her" an excuse if someone also detests the fact that Naruto still wants Sasuke after all he did to him?

It's not an excuse, it's the truth. In actuality, Sasuke doesn't deserve anything but loneliness. He's done nothing but hurt his friends and the people who apparently love him. I don't see the point of hanging on to such a selfish jerk, friend or lover, but apparently Kishi thinks so so I have to watch Naruto pathetically chase the guy that treated him like dirt and tried to kill him on more than one occasion.

A killing attempt is a killing attempt, friend or lover. It's the same, he tried to take their life away. He tried to kill them in cold blood. There is no difference between killing a friend and killing a lover. Period.

Similarly to the friendship between Naruto and Sasuke, Karin does not take Sasuke's crap unlike Sakura who lets him walk over her. That is pretty much the only reason why SK is slightly less dis-likable to SS, but even still, Sasuke doesn't deserve the attention he gets. I don't know why people are so loyal to him, it doesn't make sense.

Because the rules of the real world don't apply in fiction.

If you ever got to see Dragonball the same argument could be said about Vegeta. In fact Vegeta was presented as an actual villain instead of a teen with issues like Kishi does with Sasuke. And yet Vegeta became one of the good guys despite the previous bad blood between him and the heroes. Sure there was some tension at the beginning as he changed sides but it happened nonetheless.

Two major problems:

(1) Most people here don't support Sasuke's redemption. And even if they do...

That's a problematic contrast of ideas between you and Kishi. If you can't accept Sasuke's potential redemption then the conclusion of the story will seriously disappoint you.

(2) It's not murder in the case of Naruto/Sasuke. Naruto ran him down and willingly participated in that fight from start to finish. He was not vulnerable or defenseless. Karin was a defenseless human shield and he ran her through because she was an inconvenient obstacle.

And it's not about "deserving her." He doesn't, but that's not my issue. It's accepting Karin maintaining and willingly running back to a guy who she knows without doubt is willing to kill her because she is an inconvenience. I would not accept someone beating me senseless because they were drunk as an excuse and I would not accept he was just full of hate at the moment as an excuse here. He was in control and did it anyway.

If this was real life your argument would be the undisputed truth of the world, but alas this is the world of fiction where death is cheap and evil acts are simple misdemeanors.

It's important not to put to much real world logic into this type of stories. Can you imagine if the same had been done with Dragonball? Oh boy.

I pretty much agree there, but i indeed see the murder attempts as a reason why SS cant happen.
We cant really compare the killing attempt on naruto to the one on sakura, since naruto is not in love with sasuke. Its possible in the story that they stay friends with sasuke, but you cant have a working realtionship with someone who nearly killed you two times.

If its about forgiving sasuke, then of course they can forgive sasuke for the attempts, but i cant imagine sakura still wanting to be together with him.

Thats why i think we cant really compare Narutos near death through sasuke with the ones of karin and sakura.

From a real world perspective this makes sense, but as I keep saying the world of fiction tends to give a different feel in terms of morality and psychology.

EDIT

Just so you guys know I wouldn't like for Karin to simply go back to Sasuke and for all to be instantly forgiven. The stab was a big issue so it deserves to be addressed as such. And given that Karin is not someone to let Sasuke walk all over her I would find it strange if she simply went back to him and pretended nothing happened.

Edited by redragon88, 08 February 2013 - 01:31 PM.

[candycane-chan]

So we're talking about Sasukarin again?
I really can't understand this ship. Their "relationship" is just so shallow and reminds me a hell lot of SS in part 1. And I believe it's a bit of a hypocricy when fans wait for their interactions and acually have faith in them being canon while they say that SS is dead and impossible to happen and that "It would ruin sakura's character" yet it won't do the same for karin.

About sasuke's killing attempts on sakura and karin; I don't justify any of them but those can not be compared at all!
Sakura was his enemy and she was the one who came to him with the killing intent ( She had it all planned; to kill sasuke so that she would prevent him from sinking any lower and to relieve naruto from going through it himself). And let's not forget that sasuke already made it clear that they are't team mates anymore ( "from now on everyone goes his own way")

Karin on the other hand was his comrade and she was in no way whatsovever intending to harm him. On the countrary acually, she was there for support. But once danzou got a hold on her sasuke just forgot whatever "bond" he had with her and has shown no remorce, pain, or guilt after stabbing her. And using the excuse of sasuke being not in his right mind can be applied to sakura's case.

And sasuke never really did hurt sakura physically. He intended to but he was stopped by kakashi first and then by naruto. It makes me think a bit positively about team 7 later. But he did hurt karin!

So ,yea. I find nothing appealing about this ship. And furthermore, I can't imagine sasuke ending up with any female from the manga, not that I hate him or anything but he just doesn't seem that kind of a guy.

I know that we can't apply real life logic here but if SK is possible then I wouldn't say that SS is dead.

[tricksie]

If this was real life your argument would be the undisputed truth of the world, but alas this is the world of fiction where death is cheap and evil acts are simple misdemeanors.

hahaha!!! Brilliant! That should be the new subtitle to the manga!

Naruto: Where Death is Cheap and Evil Acts are Simple Misdemeanors.

Just so you guys know I wouldn't like for Karin to simply go back to Sasuke and for all to be instantly forgiven. The stab was a big issue so it deserves to be addressed as such. And given that Karin is not someone to let Sasuke walk all over her I would find it strange if she simply went back to him and pretended nothing happened.

I didn't get a chance to respond to your earlier post about Karin (that the chuunin exam foreshadowing made it feel like she would have a more long-term role in the manga, and that ever since the summit arc things have plateaued off for NS and SK). Both interesting points in terms of looking at the overall direction of the arc. I thought Karin's story was done after Sasuke impaled her. But Kishimoto has definitely kept us aware of her life (unlike poor TenTen), so you may be onto something.

It will be interesting to see if some kind of relationship threads get picked back up for Sasuke (in any way, shape or form) after this "love" discussion.

Anyway, about Karin and Sakura and the whole love after abuse thing. While the real-life aspect of this is disgusting (truly, there's no justification for either of them doing anything but wiping him off the bottom of their boots), this is a manga. And a manga with very elastic rules about what's acceptable and what's not. There is no baseline morality in this story. Only a consistent manipulation of sympathies. (So it's frustrating to read about such horrid issues treated in such a off-handed way. Or even to have you sympathize with the villain, in spite of his treachery.) —What I'm saying is I get why people treat it seriously and hold it to a higher standard. It is a teen-aimed manga that flirts with real-life issues. But Kishimoto does not resolve them in a satisfactory way. So we come here!

Anyway, I don't want to see Sakura or Karin even giving Sasuke the time of day. And I don't think Sasuke will end up in a relationship (more the wanderer as Ciardha has always said).

However, I do think that Kishimoto will give Sasuke some sort of excuse to redeem his actions toward Sakura and Karin. Not for them, but for us. I think it will be important that the reader accepts Sasuke's redemption. And how can we do that if he has knowingly tried to kill the people who are supposed to have cared for him (through love and teammate bonds).

As crappy as it seems, I think Kishimoto will write in some hand-wave excuse for Sasuke. Like "I knew you would heal yourself and survive Karin. You've always been strong." Or "I knew Naruto would get to you in time, Sakura. He'd never let you down." And then he'd go on about how he knew what Madara was planning all along and had to go along with the act. Even faking the murder attempts. So that Sasuke becomes the new Itachi in the end and we all accept him and see that really, Naruto was right all along.

It's cheap and unsatisfactory, but I think Sasuke's actions toward Sakura and Karin are going to explained away. Just like all the other vicious crimes in this manga that are absolved by their intent. Not by any true remorse or responsibility or penance.