31712 replies to this topic

[Kagomaru]

To be fair, Obito was pretty cool   

The issue is it came out of Naruto's mouth. That was just nasty. 

I don't know what was going through Kishimoto's mind when he wrote Naruto praising the murderer of his parents, and the significant portion of his fellow villagers 16 years prior.

[Tsuki Hoshino]

Or how about plunging them into a "War" All because he was sad over his Never-Girlfriend throwing her life away at the hands of his friend and her crush, forever scarring both himself and Kakashi? 

Words cannot describe how disgusting I find it that both Rin and Hinata were cool with getting their blood splattered all over the guys they recently confessed to and half the fandom is like "Thats soooo cute <3 <3 <3" 

 

Obito also helped Itachi kill 99% of their clan, ruining Sasuke, Naruto's soul brother's life and the MF is just like "Omg you're so cool for doing a last minute reassessment of your life!" 
 

Objectively, Obito is pretty cool, but NARUTO should never be the one saying that. Its okay for the audience to think so, its not OK for the Hero who was personally impacted by his nefarious deeds to feel it. But this is all because shortly into part 2 Kishimoto decided he needed to hammer-fist "Forgiveness" down everyone's throats. 

Meanwhile, Sakura fights Sasori, manages to destroy his kittened up world-view, get him to more or less admit he was wrong and at the end she's just like "What a kittening weirdo." It was perfect.  

 

Edited by Tsuki Hoshino, 31 May 2023 - 04:52 PM.

[Kagomaru]

Or how about plunging them into a "War" All because he was sad over his Never-Girlfriend throwing her life away at the hands of his friend and her crush, forever scarring both himself and Kakashi? 

Words cannot describe how disgusting I find it that both Rin and Hinata were cool with getting their blood splattered all over the guys they recently confessed to and half the fandom is like "Thats soooo cute <3 <3 <3" 

 

Obito also helped Itachi kill 99% of their clan, ruining Sasuke, Naruto's soul brother's life and the MF is just like "Omg you're so cool for doing a last minute reassessment of your life!" 
 

Objectively, Obito is pretty cool, but NARUTO should never be the one saying that. Its okay for the audience to think so, its not OK for the Hero who was personally impacted by his nefarious deeds to feel it. But this is all because shortly into part 2 Kishimoto decided he needed to hammer-fist "Forgiveness" down everyone's throats. 

Meanwhile, Sakura fights Sasori, manages to destroy his kittened up world-view, get him to more or less admit he was wrong and at the end she's just like "What a kittening weirdo." It was perfect.  

 

What's more infuriating/hilarious is that Kishimoto *dares* to complain about Naruto's characterization as a paragon by stating that he ultimately finds him less empathetic than Sasuke as a person due to his attitude and ideals being too naive and unrealistic. Buddy, you're the one wrote him into becoming a damn Jesus Christ expy to begin with, so you have no right to kitten about it. You had a opportunity at exploring a more complex narrative angle with Naruto regarding forgiveness and him being more realistic about it(such as when Naruto empathized with Pain but still condemned him all of the same for his actions), but you chickened out. 

[NaruSaku fan in Kentucky]

 

It is sad how Homer Simpson... a father who chokes his son... is still a better father than Naruto.

[VanitasDS76491]

I don't know what was going through Kishimoto's mind when he wrote Naruto praising the murderer of his parents, and the significant portion of his fellow villagers 16 years prior.

That'd be like all might calling shigiraki that after everything he did or superman calling darkseid that after he slaved the planet or batman calling joker that 

 

 

It is sad how Homer Simpson... a father who chokes his son... is still a better father than Naruto.

at least homer tries to be a good dad to his kids 

[Tsuki Hoshino]

 

It is sad how Homer Simpson... a father who chokes his son... is still a better father than Naruto.

 

This is incorrect. Naruto is a good dad. 

Just not to his OWN son  He's a good dad to Salad and to some random orphan he picked up off the street tho. 

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

 
It is sad how Homer Simpson... a father who chokes his son... is still a better father than Naruto.

And Homer has shown even as he abuses Bart, he will be there for him, and he's shown that with Lisa as well, plus he was willing to go back to work at the nuclear plant after paying off the mortgage for their house because he wanted to support Maggie when she was born.

This is incorrect. Naruto is a good dad. 

Just not to his OWN son  He's a good dad to Salad and to some random orphan he picked up off the street tho.

Ouch! SHOTS FIRED. But seriously, he tells Boruto to suck up his loneliness rather than trying to be there for him, which tells me Naruto blames his family for his missing his inauguration and such, though that's just me reading too much into it.

[Tsuki Hoshino]

Ouch! SHOTS FIRED. But seriously, he tells Boruto to suck up his loneliness rather than trying to be there for him, which tells me Naruto blames his family for his missing his inauguration and such, though that's just me reading too much into it.

I'm not sure if Naruto's the one who said that, but Hinata definitely did. And Naruto doesn't have to say ANYTHING to give his son the feeling that he's less important to him than everyone else, its all in what he does/doesn't do. 

To be fair, it was his family's fault he missed his inauguration.   

 

 

What's more infuriating/hilarious is that Kishimoto *dares* to complain about Naruto's characterization as a paragon by stating that he ultimately finds him less empathetic than Sasuke as a person due to his attitude and ideals being too naive and unrealistic. Buddy, you're the one wrote him into becoming a damn Jesus Christ expy to begin with, so you have no right to kitten about it. You had a opportunity at exploring a more complex narrative angle with Naruto regarding forgiveness and him being more realistic about it(such as when Naruto empathized with Pain but still condemned him all of the same for his actions), but you chickened out. 

Forgot to respond to this last post, Rip. 

One of the reasons Kishimoto had to write Naruto that way was probably to explain why despite everything Sasuke did or might have done, Naruto could continue to chase him and claim they were "Friends/brothers." Most people wouldn't do that after someone tried to kill them once, much less twice but Kishimoto pinned himself in with his Sasuke-boner and PoL--which he later decimated anyways   

Kishimoto wrote Naruto as the guy who physically beats people around to his POV for the sole purpose of Sasuke. (imo.) Sure, there are times where that will work, with characters like Gaara and Neji, but notice that for the most part Naruto doesn't get to fight the truly reprehensible villains like Hidan or Danzo. He's almost exclusively matched up against people with conveniently sad backstories. 

[Bail o' Lies]

I see Naruto's problems as a father is being worn down -both by Bolt's hostility and not being prepared for the role of Hokage- more than not caring.

 

As for his ideological issue. Kishimoto never allowed Naruto to question his beliefs. Naruto had two ideals, reform the ninja system which was only barely explored in part one, and return Sasuke to the village no matter what. The first idea was barely touch on, but 'return Sasuke to the village' almost consumed the manga. As every lesson Naruto learned in part two had to have an, "and this will help me return Sasuke to the village," attached at the end. Of course no one was really allowed to seriously question Naruto about this that wouldn't just be shouted down and him doubling down. Which means Naruto is stagnate as a character throughout part two. Which I see highlighted by the end fight where Sasuke has at least gone through some growth due to the war to come up with his insane plan while Naruto has nothing but shouting him down; when he should be countering with his own vision of change... which kishimoto never focused on. In order for a character to grow, they must be challenged and questioned.

Edited by Bail o' Lies, 02 June 2023 - 01:56 AM.

[Tsuki Hoshino]

I see Naruto's problems as a father is being worn down -both by Bolt's hostility and not being prepared for the role of Hokage- more than not caring.

 

As for his ideological issue. Kishimoto never allowed Naruto to question his beliefs. Naruto had two ideals, reform the ninja system which was only barely explored in part one, and return Sasuke to the village no matter what. The first idea was barely touch on, but 'return Sasuke to the village' almost consume the manga. As every lesson Naruto learned in part two had to have an, "and this will help me return Sasuke to the village," attached at the end. Of course no one was really allowed to seriously question Naruto about this that would just be shouted down and him doubling down. Which means Naruto is stagnate as a character throughout part two. Which I see highlighted by the end fight where Sasuke has at least gone through some growth due to the war to come up with his insane plan while Naruto has not but shouting him down; when he should be countering with his own vision of change... which kishimoto never focused on. In order for a character to grow, they must be challenged and questioned.

IDK, he seems fine with other kids. Maybe Burrito reminds him of himself, and he's full of self hatred--who knows. I'm not going to seriously claim he hates his kids, but I will say he's lacking as a father and that's not at all what i expected for him. But then, nothing about their adult lives is what I wanted for them so meh. 

Whats funny is that there are really only a handful of characters who talk kitten about Sasuke and how bringing him back is "pointless" IIRC Gaara goes as far as to say that as Kazekage, if he got the chance he'd kill him. Its just that almost no one ever says it to NARUTO'S face and presses the issue. Some how Naruto says "Imma do it" and every one goes "Well, okay." Just like when he said to Sakura and Kakashi that he was going to die fighting him and they just stood there like idiots. 

And all of K11 basically ganged up on Sakura and told her SHE needed to do something about Naruto and Sasuke instead of IDK, calling Naruto out and having a heart to heart. That would have been a good thing for Shikamaru to do, since he's the genius and future right hand man. "What do you expect to happen when you drag him back? do you think he's magically going to change his mind and want to stay here? What is your plan for AFTER?"   

It probably would have been appropriate for Kakashi to step in and say "hey, when i said those who abandon their teammates are worse than trash, I should have mentioned it only applied to LOYAL teammates." And again, how come TSUNADE allows this buffoonery to go on? Oh, because she likes Naruto and apparently lets him do whatever he wants instead of pointing out her own experiences with traitorous teammates   

Despite the title of the series, It's actually Sasuke's world and it all just bends around him including the MC. 
 

[Bail o' Lies]

IDK, he seems fine with other kids. Maybe Burrito reminds him of himself, and he's full of self hatred--who knows. I'm not going to seriously claim he hates his kids, but I will say he's lacking as a father and that's not at all what i expected for him. But then, nothing about their adult lives is what I wanted for them so meh. 

Whats funny is that there are really only a handful of characters who talk kitten about Sasuke and how bringing him back is "pointless" IIRC Gaara goes as far as to say that as Kazekage, if he got the chance he'd kill him. Its just that almost no one ever says it to NARUTO'S face and presses the issue. Some how Naruto says "Imma do it" and every one goes "Well, okay." Just like when he said to Sakura and Kakashi that he was going to die fighting him and they just stood there like idiots. 

And all of K11 basically ganged up on Sakura and told her SHE needed to do something about Naruto and Sasuke instead of IDK, calling Naruto out and having a heart to heart. That would have been a good thing for Shikamaru to do, since he's the genius and future right hand man. "What do you expect to happen when you drag him back? do you think he's magically going to change his mind and want to stay here? What is your plan for AFTER?"   

It probably would have been appropriate for Kakashi to step in and say "hey, when i said those who abandon their teammates are worse than trash, I should have mentioned it only applied to LOYAL teammates." And again, how come TSUNADE allows this buffoonery to go on? Oh, because she likes Naruto and apparently lets him do whatever he wants instead of pointing out her own experiences with traitorous teammates   

Despite the title of the series, It's actually Sasuke's world and it all just bends around him including the MC. 
 

He is fine with other kids because they are not viscously hostile to him. I don't know your personal life, so may have never experienced this, but sometimes people have such awful personalities even if you should, you just don't want to be around them. They just keep pushing you away that eventually you just give up on them; even if you know you can't let that happen.

 

Boruto resents that Naruto is working as the Hokage -where the lives of everyone in the village is his responsibility- distracts him from his family. Boruto does not want his father as hokage, he wants Naruto to devote 100% of himself to his family. Anything less is an unforgivable sin in Boruto's eyes. Of course this only applies for his family, Sasuke is his role model despite not seeing his family for over a decade is the coolest guy ever and everything he wants to be. So anytime he saw his father he chews his head off no matter what he does even if he is in theory doing exactly want Boruto would want him to do its never enough.

 

So what ever he did this is what Boruto would say: "Die! You kitten old Man! I Hate You! You worthless pathetic kitten old man! You're a failure at everything!" Just imagine that every time he tried to spend time with his family after becoming hokage.

 

Of course, that was at the start of the series, in theory, this was resolved after the chunin exam. He still act like a bitter spoiled brat that constantly snipes at him.

 

As for the Sasuke stuff I get the feeling the people in the village know they can't convince Naruto to back off, so they don't bother. Even with Gaara, Naruto had a panic attack and then double down. I think they went to Sakura one, because her feelings for Sasuke were fading and growing for Naruto. Two, they hope she would be the one that could convince Naruto...of course she realized she couldn't convince him to back off so opted for killing Sasuke without Naruto learning she would and dating him so he would focus on her instead of Sasuke.

Edited by Bail o' Lies, 02 June 2023 - 05:54 AM.

[Konoha'sCrimsonFox]

It's been a while since I've posted on this thread. I've long since stopped following Kishi' interviews. I think the last one was some where back in 2017 I think when he talked about Sakura and Hinata love triangle with Naruto, and how the much the Sakura haters on from Kishi',s assistants mocked Sakura being ugly lol.

Sure, Kishi kind of defended NS with, stating that he never had time to write a love triangle between these three characters and he went rambling about the manga being Shonen action story to justify his reasoning. Because he had many chances back then to explain everyone that Sakura has never romantically love Naruto' instead of doing questions with bogus answers for instance: he said to an interviewer not too long after chapter 700 that the reason why Naruto couldn't get with Sakura is because it would make her look bad and with a lot more where that came from during the early years before Boruto manga was even a thing.

Now from what I'm reading from his recent interviews (if it's post samurai 7) I just take it for salt and grain. Because ever since he got hired to do Boruto from what I heard and read, I have a feeling that Kishi, enthusiasm creator or employer of his work is gone and it just like me and many people that go to work for a living.

Thats my opinion.

[Konoha'sCrimsonFox]

Sorry for the double post. I know the it against the rules but I thought it was necessary because I have a question.

Do you guys remember the flashback scene where SP animated a child Naruto and Hinata? If I remember correctly that Hinata was about to be abducted by bandits but Naruto rescued her when he attempted the shadow clone jutsu.

I remember back then we'll all criticized SP for retconing that scene because never learned that jutsu until the opening chapter and episode.

Where was this from? Was it during The Last movie or a filler arc?

[LuckyChi7]

It was The Last

[Tsuki Hoshino]

He is fine with other kids because they are not viscously hostile to him. I don't know your personal life, so may have never experienced this, but sometimes people have such awful personalities even if you should, you just don't want to be around them. They just keep pushing you away that eventually you just give up on them; even if you know you can't let that happen.

 

Boruto resents that Naruto is working as the Hokage -where the lives of everyone in the village is his responsibility- distracts him from his family. Boruto does not want his father as hokage, he wants Naruto to devote 100% of himself to his family. Anything less is an unforgivable sin in Boruto's eyes. Of course this only applies for his family, Sasuke is his role model despite not seeing his family for over a decade is the coolest guy ever and everything he wants to be. So anytime he saw his father he chews his head off no matter what he does even if he is in theory doing exactly want Boruto would want him to do its never enough.

 

So what ever he did this is what Boruto would say: "Die! You kitten old Man! I Hate You! You worthless pathetic kitten old man! You're a failure at everything!" Just imagine that every time he tried to spend time with his family after becoming hokage.

 

Of course, that was at the start of the series, in theory, this was resolved after the chunin exam. He still act like a bitter spoiled brat that constantly snipes at him.

 

As for the Sasuke stuff I get the feeling the people in the village know they can't convince Naruto to back off, so they don't bother. Even with Gaara, Naruto had a panic attack and then double down. I think they went to Sakura one, because her feelings for Sasuke were fading and growing for Naruto. Two, they hope she would be the one that could convince Naruto...of course she realized she couldn't convince him to back off so opted for killing Sasuke without Naruto learning she would and dating him so he would focus on her instead of Sasuke.

I was that kid   when I was a teen, my catch phrase was basically "I hate my life/I hate you mom/dad/I wish I were dead." But my parents still didn't avoid me even though they probably worked more than Naruto  and one of them was periodically over seas for months at a time. both of them still made time for their kids, If they COULD be at an event/birthday/holiday they were and I wasn't angry at them for working--I was angry at everything. 

It was a pretty poor choice on their part to make Burrito that combative with Naruto but the whole thing is ultimately a clusterkitten of how not to write family dynamics. (Unless you're purposely writing families in crisis   )

I think it would have been more effective for the entire k11 to plead their case to Naruto personally rather than using Sakura as a sacrificial lamb. At least then he's somewhat forced to explain himself and be countered with multiple points of view. but, NARUTO CANNOT BE QUESTIONED ABOUT SASUKE~ (Nor can Sakura.) He's the team 7 taboo. 

 

Sorry for the double post. I know the it against the rules but I thought it was necessary because I have a question.

Do you guys remember the flashback scene where SP animated a child Naruto and Hinata? If I remember correctly that Hinata was about to be abducted by bandits but Naruto rescued her when he attempted the shadow clone jutsu.

I remember back then we'll all criticized SP for retconing that scene because never learned that jutsu until the opening chapter and episode.

Where was this from? Was it during The Last movie or a filler arc?

 

I'm pretty sure it was the Last, but its possible they also added filler to it. 
 

[NaruSaku fan in Kentucky]

Just saw across the Spider-verse. It was intense. 

[Konoha'sCrimsonFox]

I was that kid   when I was a teen, my catch phrase was basically "I hate my life/I hate you mom/dad/I wish I were dead." But my parents still didn't avoid me even though they probably worked more than Naruto  and one of them was periodically over seas for months at a time. both of them still made time for their kids, If they COULD be at an event/birthday/holiday they were and I wasn't angry at them for working--I was angry at everything. 

It was a pretty poor choice on their part to make Burrito that combative with Naruto but the whole thing is ultimately a clusterkitten of how not to write family dynamics. (Unless you're purposely writing families in crisis   )

I think it would have been more effective for the entire k11 to plead their case to Naruto personally rather than using Sakura as a sacrificial lamb. At least then he's somewhat forced to explain himself and be countered with multiple points of view. but, NARUTO CANNOT BE QUESTIONED ABOUT SASUKE~ (Nor can Sakura.) He's the team 7 taboo. 
 

 

I'm pretty sure it was the Last, but its possible they also added filler to it.

  

It was The Last

Ok... was the flashback during the scene when Naruto and Hinata were connected by a genjutsu sequence? Or was it introduced at a later point in the movie?

[LuckyChi7]

  Ok... was the flashback during the scene when Naruto and Hinata were connected by a genjutsu sequence? Or was it introduced at a later point in the movie?

The one where he attempted to do The Shadow Clone Jutsu was at the beginning of the movie including the whole hypothesis from Iruka on if the moon were to fall <- at the beginning of the movie.

But it does come back around when Naruto & Hinata were connected via genjutsu!

[Konoha'sCrimsonFox]

I recently watched the Alternate fanmade anime version of TL and when Sakura and Naruto got caught in the genjutsu, it refreshed my memories about the retcon flashback. Now it make totally sense that SP went the retcon route (originally I thought was to deceived the audience/readers/viewers for many years). It's all because of a fri**en Genjutsu that ruined our hero into being the number one SJ most scumbag protagonist in history. Even when nearly a decade has passed since chapter 700, it it really gets my blood boiling how SJ was brought to ruin and the aftermath of him being and old drunk and a terrible father. 

 

 Guys thanks for the info and saving me the pain to watch the film. 

[Namaenash]

You'd think that since SS is SOoooooOooooo popular, they would have made an SS movie by now. Or since Sasuke and SAKURA are so popular they would have put the two of them in a movie together but instead they get ONE kitten tier spinoff manga and a novel almost no one read. 

Its been a while since I checked-in last time. Hope you all are doing great.

SS popularity has always been a myth. Now that there are specific products dedicated to this pairing, we can finally debunk the myths of the pairing popularity.

Not surprisingly, they are very small. We have facts and figures, so, its easy to debate and make arguments.

Fundamentally, Kishi dont need to switch direction of his story telling. Even if he did, or someone else ask him to do, he need to do it properly.

Folks who work with data would know that your source of truth shouldnt be based on quantitative data only (in this case popularity poll, or God forbid, YouTube watch count). Consumer studies always include qualitative as well as quantitative to make decision that will amplify the sales of the products. What happened with Naruto franchise is a good case study of how cognitive bias in decision making could easily brought down multi-billion dollar franchise. Not only that, but also future projects related to the key folks in the franchise (look at what happened to Samurai 8).

Today, Naruto franchise is beyond salvation, that much is clear. The producer need to accept the fact that ~95% of their sales are now gone, thanks to their bias to go down with NH/SS route. Theyll sell products, sure, but it wont be at the magnitude they used to have.

What Kishi shouldve done: focus on making a good story, ignore the noises coming from the fandom. Especially the loud ones (looking at you NH/SS).