54216 replies to this topic

[elmas]

He is blind when it comes to love.There is a saying in our language "Love makes people blind!".

[ramenanmitsu]

I'm not really sure why Naruto favoring Sasuke is a problem for NS when everyone in the entire series favors Sasuke above all else, dude's like kittening Elvis there.
 
Its more of a problem of how Kishi writes Sasuke rather than how he writes NS. He tries so hard for Sasuke to be relevant by having every single character talk about how awesome he is.....someone forgot tpo tell Kishi that in a visual medium its better to show not tell. That's why people love Vegeta, Hiei and Zuko. they proves their worth as anti-heroes and didn't have or need everyone praising them for the most insignificant things.

I think it's more of a problem of how Kishi writes Sasuke AND Naruto. Naruto's life has nearly been centered around Sasuke. Even if Sasuke existed, if Kishi didn't write Naruto the way he is now, people wouldn't have complained. We readers have to handle two things (as if one wasn't enough) 1. Sasuke and his kitten insane character and 2. Naruto and his obsession over Sasuke.

And Naruto is a half of NS, so automatically it will affect NS. If you know what I mean.
Edit: I have no idea regarding the movie. It's an epilogue? I hope not....I usually agree with 咲耶姫's translation. So whatever she says, I'll probably follow it.

Edited by ramenanmitsu, 01 September 2014 - 11:55 PM.

[Uzumaki9000]

Please forgive me guys. I had to do this...

Epicness

  

[Naruko]

First of all, thanks for wanting to debate with me. And I really like how calm you are.

That's a good question. I am actually not sure. If she was abducted, I'm sure he will. But if she betrays.....I'm not sure to be honest :/ Naruto had no mercy to people like Mizuki or Kabuto becoming bad. It's hard for me to distinguish a clear line from who he will fight for or against because Sasuke's position is very different from the others.
I disagree that changing Sasuke is Naruto's purpose. It's more like forcefully wanting to bring him back because Naruto is Sasuke's brother. "I'll bring you back even if I break your arms and legs". He's never done his TnJ even when he had the chance like the Kage summit. He more or less accepts Sasuke the way he is. And that's what makes Sasuke different from Nagato, Obito, and Zabuza. Towards the three villains he was very angry and probably be furious if they tried to kill Sakura like Sasuke did. But when it comes to Sasuke, he's more accepting even if he nearly killed his own teammate. Therefore, I make my conclusion that Sasuke's importance are way above the others. When it's about Sasuke, it's not about changing him but more like accepting him.

Regarding making Sakura happy: that was part one. Not anymore. She prefers Naruto to stay safe with her than endangering his life to bring back Sasuke. To which Naruto said that bringing back Sasuke has nothing to do with her and their promise. Sakura has long stop being a factor.
Actually, I think it should be the other way around. Who should Naruto concern himself more? His friends or the guy trying to hurt his friends? This is not real life, but if I were Naruto I'll prioritize my bond over the friends who care for me rather than someone who is constantly trying to hurt me. Either way, I'm not blaming Naruto for what he's doing. I am just saying that I lose all interest in the NS pairing because well, Sakura is listed among the "others". I just can't bring myself to think that kind of a pairing is attractive where there's no mutual partnership.
  
That's only the positive things you've pointed out. What about the hospital scene where Naruto scolded Sakura "not to get in between their fight" which he didn't say anything to Kakashi? What about Kage summit arc, where Sakura has decided that all she can do is have faith in them and watch them behind the sidelines. What about the rookie meeting where Sakura realized Naruto was hiding something from her. When it comes to Sasuke, Naruto will shut her out and make her believe that there's nothing to do about it even though she's a team seven member as well. Sakura is used as a literary device to emphasize how great Naruto/Sasuke is and their bonds (this is done by showing that she can never fit in, never be as important, and never be as strong as the other too).

It would have been better if she would have just left Naruto and didn't bother with him since he's oh so eager to shut her out. But no, there are endless panels of her showing worry and concern over Naruto while she barely does anything herself. This is why I think NS is dragging down her character.
I hope I explained myself well. Did you understand what I mean?
 

 

I really got what u meant, but I'll have to counter it since I don't agree with a lot of things...  I can say I can jump from calm to crazy but not when it's about logical discussions. So, thanks. 

 

Mizuki and Kabuto weren't the girl he has been having a crush on since who the hell knows and his teammate (who he shows much more care for than anyone out of team 7), neither his rival and also teammate and comrade.  

 

Not changing Sasuke entirely, but changing his mind about the village. Naruto said he would bring Sasuke back by force "if necessary". He doesn't accept the fact Sasuke wanted to hurt Sakura (basically the same way he didn't accept how Zabuza looked indifferent to Haku's death). Just take a look at what he says when it happens. Forgiving is different from accepting. What makes Sasuke different from Obito, Nagato and Zabuza is that Naruto actually saw him in his "good times", so he feels it even more. And what's worse is that he was an important person to Naruto. Breaking Sasuke's arms and legs without taking him away from the hatred circle would be pointless. 

 

He said he can't confess yet since he wasn't able to maintain the promise. That is a proof that he still cares about that promise made in pt 1. About the concern, that's your view, not Naruto's. Naruto can't stand someone he loves hurting other people he also loves. He can't help but feel obligated to bring them back to the good side. Talking about myself for example, if my brother tried to kill my sister, I would worry a lot about him. I would feel terrible and obligated to at least try to convince him that what he's doing is wrong. I wouldn't just ignore someone who's so important to me because he changed his way of being. Mutual partnership is the definition of NS. Both supporting each other's dreams, sacrificing themselves for the sake of the other, sharing a dream, fighting together for it, improving together...

 

The first thing you pointed is actually a good thing. That was Naruto worrying about Sakura because he didn't want to hurt her, what's so bad with that? Sakura was the one in danger there, there's no way Kakashi would let himself get hurt by that. 

The second one was a pretty logical thought of Sakura, since there was not much she could do there. I don't see why it is a bad point of the couple NS or what it has to do with it. She was actually having faith on Naruto, it's not like she was being downplayed, her goal is to able to fight side by side with them after all, so there must have moments where she is not able to to contrast with the ones when she actually achieves it. 

Again, Naruto hided it because he worried about her and he knew that she could end up getting hurt if she gets involved in their fight. He thinks it's his obligation to bring Sasuke back, specially after that promise. 

Sakura's plot is not to empathize their relationship, she has her complex relationships with them herself. She has her story with each one of them herself. Her relationships might not be as empathized by the series as much as NarutoxSasuke, though for her character, they're more important. For her development, they're more important, including love development. To her development, SakuraxNaruto and SakuraxSasuke are more than NarutoxSasuke. And it's not like she hasn't done anything, you know. 

 

Romance subplot is not the focus of the series, the bromance is, you're right. And that's why NarutoxSasuke is more relevant to the plot. Though it doesn't make the romance weak because of that, it is the series focus, so it's normal to be centered at it. And again, Naruto's obsession on bringing Sasuke back never made him forgot about Sakura. Every time she needed, he was there. So why isn't there proper romance development? Of course there is. The fact the bromance has more development doesn't change much anything since it's the main subject of the manga. 

[ramenanmitsu]

I really got what u meant, but I'll have to counter it since I don't agree with a lot of things...  I can say I can jump from calm to crazy but not when it's about logical discussions. So, thanks. 
 
Mizuki and Kabuto weren't the girl he has been having a crush on since who the hell knows and his teammate (who he shows much more care for than anyone out of team 7), neither his rival and also teammate and comrade.

Fair enough. I think the better question for me to ask you would have been, how do you think Naruto would have reacted were Sakura in Sasuke's place and tried to kill Sasuke? I have a hard time thinking that Naruto will act all calm and still call her that "she's his friend" and show understanding in the Kage summit if it were the other way around. And I'm certain that I'm not the only one who gets this impression from reading the manga, when I see the posts of other people here. Doesn't mean I'm right, but it gives you an idea how people received Kishi's writing.
 

Not changing Sasuke entirely, but changing his mind about the village. Naruto said he would bring Sasuke back by force "if necessary". He doesn't accept the fact Sasuke wanted to hurt Sakura (basically the same way he didn't accept how Zabuza looked indifferent to Haku's death). Just take a look at what he says when it happens. Forgiving is different from accepting. What makes Sasuke different from Obito, Nagato and Zabuza is that Naruto actually saw him in his "good times", so he feels it even more. And what's worse is that he was an important person to Naruto. Breaking Sasuke's arms and legs without taking him away from the hatred circle would be pointless. 

I took a look at what he said when it happened and he said, "I understand you. I'll fight for you because you're my friend." To me, that doesn't look like he is unforgiving of Sasuke. And you bring up Zabuza and Haku, but Naruto was a lot more angry at the way Zabuza treated Haku, even though he only met Haku three times, as opposed to how he acted towards Sasuke trying to kill Sakura, his teammate for three years and the girl he declares he loves. I agree that it's natural for Naruto to put Sasuke above all the other villains. But if that were the case, it's also natural to put his teammate Sakura higher than say, Haku, or all the other people who he tried to defend and got angry over the years. But when the attacker is Sasuke, Naruto's reaction is nothing more than seeing a ruthless boy pricking out the feathers of an innocent butterfly. He may not like it, but he can't bring himself to be angry when it's Sasuke.
  

He said he can't confess yet since he wasn't able to maintain the promise. That is a proof that he still cares about that promise made in pt 1. About the concern, that's your view, not Naruto's. Naruto can't stand someone he loves hurting other people he also loves. He can't help but feel obligated to bring them back to the good side. Talking about myself for example, if my brother tried to kill my sister, I would worry a lot about him. I would feel terrible and obligated to at least try to convince him that what he's doing is wrong. I wouldn't just ignore someone who's so important to me because he changed his way of being. Mutual partnership is the definition of NS. Both supporting each other's dreams, sacrificing themselves for the sake of the other, sharing a dream, fighting together for it, improving together...

The reason why he can't confess yet is more because he's the type of guy who wants to gain something after he accomplished a certain goal. It's no more different than Naruto promising himself not to be Hokage until he saves Sasuke, or Rock Lee making those training regimen in order to work hard and gain something in the end as a reward. It's no more different than me during my university exams, I promised myself to go to Hawaii after I got accepted in my first priority university. It's a goal one sets to one self in order to attain something.

 

The first thing you pointed is actually a good thing. That was Naruto worrying about Sakura because he didn't want to hurt her, what's so bad with that? Sakura was the one in danger there, there's no way Kakashi would let himself get hurt by that. 

I didn't see it that way. If he was worried he would have said "Are you alright?" That's what he always say when Sakura gets herself in danger.

No, Naruto was annoyed that she tried to get in between his fight with Sasuke. He wants to deal with Sasuke alone and hence felt disappointed that she tried to stop them.

 

The second one was a pretty logical thought of Sakura, since there was not much she could do there. I don't see why it is a bad point of the couple NS or what it has to do with it. She was actually having faith on Naruto, it's not like she was being downplayed, her goal is to able to fight side by side with them after all, so there must have moments where she is not able to to contrast with the ones when she actually achieves it.  

That is downplaying. It's logical for Hinata to just say "Naruto-kun" and stop training for herself to get stronger because most probably Naruto will solve any threats before she has the chance to become strong. That doesn't mean she's an admirable character. It only shows that she has given up on herself instead of trying to best herself and believing she can do it. Wasn't that the main theme of the manga? That hardwork can overcome anything?

It's logical for Sakura to stop training for her medic skills because Naruto now has the ability to regrow limbs and organs. So she doesn't need to waste her time on it.

No, if Sakura was a respectable character she would fight for her goals, not rely on others just because it's "logical" or that the others are "capable". And staying on the side is different to "fighting alongside with him".

 

Again, Naruto hided it because he worried about her and he knew that she could end up getting hurt if she gets involved in their fight. He thinks it's his obligation to bring Sasuke back, specially after that promise. 

No he hides about the Uchiha Massacre because Kakashi said so. She's the only one in team seven who doesn't know about her teammates history. Nowhere in the manga were it indicated that Naruto did so due to her worry for her.

 

Sakura's plot is not to empathize their relationship, she has her complex relationships with them herself. She has her story with each one of them herself. Her relationships might not be as empathized by the series as much as NarutoxSasuke, though for her character, they're more important. For her development, they're more important, including love development. To her development, SakuraxNaruto and SakuraxSasuke are more than NarutoxSasuke. And it's not like she hasn't done anything, you know. 

Her character is centered around her teammates, who aren't centered around her. That's more than enough for me to judge the relationship as non-mutual.
 

 
Romance subplot is not the focus of the series, the bromance is, you're right. And that's why NarutoxSasuke is more relevant to the plot. Though it doesn't make the romance weak because of that, it is the series focus, so it's normal to be centered at it. And again, Naruto's obsession on bringing Sasuke back never made him forgot about Sakura. Every time she needed, he was there. So why isn't there proper romance development? Of course there is. The fact the bromance has more development doesn't change much anything since it's the main subject of the manga.

You're right. Just because the series's focus is on the NaruSasu bromance, logically, it won't equal to making the NaruSaku weak. But that doesn't become an excuse when the story IS actually making them weak. Just because the above equation can be applicable, it doesn't mean that it's exclusive.

For example:
Just because I said I picked up an even number, it doesn't necessarily mean I picked up number two. But then again, it also doesn't also mean that I didn't pick up number two. You can't use that first sentence to declare that I didn't pick up number two. Do you know what I mean?

Edited by ramenanmitsu, 02 September 2014 - 12:52 AM.

[rocci]

@ramen
Naruto have more concern to sasuke because sasuke always in dangerous situation. At least it stop at land of iron.
And naru sasu is the last battle of this manga.

[Kyaerai]

Please forgive me guys. I had to do this...

Epicness

  

Well, I just had to do this

Cuteness

[Nostradamus]

Well, I just had to do this

Cuteness

Naruto's fantasy.

Edited by Nostradamus, 02 September 2014 - 01:14 AM.

[Kyaerai]

Naruto's fantasy.

More like Sakura's fantasy.

[Nostradamus]

More like Sakura's fantasy.

No, it's definitely Naruto's fantasy. I mean come on the guy spend most of his life chasing after Sasuke. So there must a reason for doing that. 

 

Love Team 7

Edited by Nostradamus, 02 September 2014 - 01:30 AM.

[questdrivencollie]

I'm not really sure why Naruto favoring Sasuke is a problem for NS when everyone in the entire series favors Sasuke above all else, dude's like kittening Elvis there.

 

 

Ladies and gentlemen, Sasuke Uchiha has left the building!

[Uzumaki9000]

Well, I just had to do this

Cuteness

OH HELL NO.

[Swagkura]

Speaking of NaruSasu...CROSSOVER 

NaruSasu 4ever

[luffyq1]

I remember when Naruto hyperventilated because of Sasuke lol.

[Kyaerai]

OH HELL NO.

Problem?

Edited by Raikidori, 02 September 2014 - 01:55 AM.

[Nostradamus]

I remember when Naruto hyperventilated because of Sasuke lol.

Isn't this the most beautiful thing ever?

[ramenanmitsu]

Lmao. So much bromance in this thread.

Isn't this the most beautiful thing ever?

You should have edited the "GASP" to "SASUKE" to make it more realistic.

Edited by ramenanmitsu, 02 September 2014 - 01:51 AM.

[luffyq1]

Isn't this the most beautiful thing ever?

hhahahhah thnx.

[TouKen4Life3g]

I have no idea what's going on, but I got to be here to tame you guys before going out of control. Haha...It remind me of The Simpsons episode where they cleaned the room and once the door flipped twice, you see it all dirty again. That's how I see it now. One moment I stepped out, what am I seeing...

[Naruko]

Fair enough. I think the better question for me to ask you would have been, how do you think Naruto would have reacted were Sakura in Sasuke's place and tried to kill Sasuke? I have a hard time thinking that Naruto will act all calm and still call her that "she's his friend" and show understanding in the Kage summit if it were the other way around. And I'm certain that I'm not the only one who gets this impression from reading the manga, when I see the posts of other people here. Doesn't mean I'm right, but it gives you an idea how people received Kishi's writing.

 I took a look at what he said when it happened and he said, "I understand you. I'll fight for you because you're my friend." To me, that doesn't look like he is unforgiving of Sasuke. And you bring up Zabuza and Haku, but Naruto was a lot more angry at the way Zabuza treated Haku, even though he only met Haku three times, as opposed to how he acted towards Sasuke trying to kill Sakura, his teammate for three years and the girl he declares he loves. I agree that it's natural for Naruto to put Sasuke above all the other villains. But if that were the case, it's also natural to put his teammate Sakura higher than say, Haku, or all the other people who he tried to defend and got angry over the years. But when the attacker is Sasuke, Naruto's reaction is nothing more than seeing a ruthless boy pricking out the feathers of an innocent butterfly. He may not like it, but he can't bring himself to be angry when it's Sasuke.

  The reason why he can't confess yet is more because he's the type of guy who wants to gain something after he accomplished a certain goal. It's no more different than Naruto promising himself not to be Hokage until he saves Sasuke, or Rock Lee making those training regimen in order to work hard and gain something in the end as a reward. It's no more different than me during my university exams, I promised myself to go to Hawaii after I got accepted in my first priority university. It's a goal one sets to one self in order to attain something.

 I didn't see it that way. If he was worried he would have said "Are you alright?" That's what he always say when Sakura gets herself in danger.

No, Naruto was annoyed that she tried to get in between his fight with Sasuke. He wants to deal with Sasuke alone and hence felt disappointed that she tried to stop them.

 That is downplaying. It's logical for Hinata to just say "Naruto-kun" and stop training for herself to get stronger because most probably Naruto will solve any threats before she has the chance to become strong. That doesn't mean she's an admirable character. It only shows that she has given up on herself instead of trying to best herself and believing she can do it. Wasn't that the main theme of the manga? That hardwork can overcome anything?

It's logical for Sakura to stop training for her medic skills because Naruto now has the ability to regrow limbs and organs. So she doesn't need to waste her time on it.

No, if Sakura was a respectable character she would fight for her goals, not rely on others just because it's "logical" or that the others are "capable". And staying on the side is different to "fighting alongside with him".

 No he hides about the Uchiha Massacre because Kakashi said so. She's the only one in team seven who doesn't know about her teammates history. Nowhere in the manga were it indicated that Naruto did so due to her worry for her.

 Her character is centered around her teammates, who aren't centered around her. That's more than enough for me to judge the relationship as non-mutual.
 You're right. Just because the series's focus is on the NaruSasu bromance, logically, it won't equal to making the NaruSaku weak. But that doesn't become an excuse when the story IS actually making them weak. Just because the above equation can be applicable, it doesn't mean that it's exclusive.

For example:
Just because I said I picked up an even number, it doesn't necessarily mean I picked up number two. But then again, it also doesn't also mean that I didn't pick up number two. You can't use that first sentence to declare that I didn't pick up number two. Do you know what I mean?

 

The same way he treated Sasuke. Remember, Sakura would be the one who Naruto would be concerned about and chasing after. I wouldn't change the situation, only the fact Sakura would be the antagonist, not Sasuke. Why would it be different? Naruto's acting towards Sasuke is not only because he's Sasuke, it's because of what he has done in the story. If Sakura was the one to do those things, I can safely assume she would be at the same situation in Naruto's eyes.

 

Unforgivable...Anything his comrades do will ever be unforgivable to Naruto. Being Sasuke to do those things or not, that's the kind of person he is. He forgave Obito, who killed his parents and friends too, why not forgive Sasuke, who attempted killing Sakura? But as I said, forgiving is not the same as accepting and now I'm adding that understanding isn't the same as accepting too. There's disapproval in Naruto's eyes when he's saving Sakura from Sasuke. He doesn't approve that hatred. And he will never do, even if it's coming from Sasuke. 

 

Now you have no proof of what you're saying. I'm based on what Naruto said. He said he can't confess to someone if he couldn't keep a promise. He didn't mention achieving goals, he mentioned the promise. Oh, and good luck with that, Hawaii is awesome. 

 

If Naruto asked "Are you alright?", she would still interfere in their fight later and she would still be in danger. The only way of keeping her away from danger would be telling her to stay away from it. 

 

Training is different from being able to actually do something at the exact moment. A great example of stupidity was Hinata trying to kill herself fighting with pain and putting everyone in danger because Naruto went 9 tails. Thank God Minato saved the day. If Hinata trained later, it would be great, but doing that at a moment she couldn't do a thing was completely unnecessary and a waste of her own life. 

 

No it's not logical because Naruto can't save everyone at once like she can and with her healing abilities, she can heal herself and be able to fight even being a medical ninja. That's logic. 

 

Don't you understand that that was a very confidential fact? That it was not something you could go and tell someone even if that someone is important to you? Why does that affect NS? 

 

Again, because the manga is centered on NarSas relationship, it doesn't mean anything to the romance subplot, since the bromance has nothing to do with it. If there was actual romance between Naruto and Sasuke, you could say it's non-mutual, but the bromance doesn't nullify Naruto's romantic feelings for Sakura, one thing has nothing to do with the other. 

 

I get your example pretty well, but the only reason for NS to be weak that I see you referring to is related to the magnificence of NarSas relationship that "makes NS non-mutual", which I don't agree with.