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#281 Miss Soupy

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Posted 26 May 2010 - 09:47 PM

LOL my favorite post from there XDD

QUOTE
SSandNHfan (May 26th, 2010 06:12PM)

NarHin and SS will become canon.

It was sexy when Sasuke tried to slit Sakura's throat with a kunai without a second thought. <33333
That's tru lub.

The same goes for NarHin. I enjoy it when Naruto ignores Hinata. That's positive development. <333

NarSak is a crappy couple. Who needs mutual development and friendship? Lying is far worse than attempted murder. smile.gif


At least someone had a sense of humor heheelq7.png

Edited by Miss Soupy, 26 May 2010 - 09:48 PM.


#282 tricksie

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Posted 26 May 2010 - 09:54 PM

I've debated about opening a thread on that funny little statement and the "in the falling snow" one at the end of that chapter, so I'm glad others are talking about it! Yay!

I've wondered about those two phrases. They are jarring in a manga, especially since they have to do with seasons. The snow one especially. It's like a scrap of poetry tacked on to the end of the chapter. And I've spent an unreasonable amount of time thinking about it. smile.gif

I don't know much about eastern story telling devices, but in traditional haikus the presence of season is tremendously important. (It's called a kigo, if you're interested.)

So when I read both of those statements — one a proverb, the other a poetic reference, both in the same chapter and both in a somewhat poetic tone — it immediately brought to mind the use of seasons in Japanese haikus.

There is also an interesting technique in traditional haikus where the author uses a "cutting word," a word on which the poem turns in it's meaning. It can give a natural pause to the flow of thought, or it's a way for the author to force the reader to compare between 'the before' and 'the after' in the poem.

More about seasons as a Japanese literary device --Click here to view--

"The insistence on time and place was crucial for writers of haiku. The seasonal reference was called a kigo and a haiku was thought to be incomplete without it. In Basho's poem quoted above, for example, the phrase aki fuhaki, "deep autumn" or "autumn deepens" is traditional and had accumulated resonances and associations from earlier poetry as well as from the Japanese way of thinking about time and change. So does the reference to snow-yulei, which can also mean "snowfall"-in Buson's poems. It is always connected to a sense of exposure to the elements,
for which there is also a traditional phrase, fuyuzare,
which means "winter bareness." - by Robert Haas, "The Essential Haiku"

I'll sum up the rest: He goes on to write that in European traditions, the seasons are not so tightly woven into the storytelling. Wordsworth would write about a "in pensive or in wayward mood," whereas it was very common to use images to evoke the state of mind.

Like "the old Japanese phrase the sums up the transience of things, "swirling petals, falling leaves." To a European reader it paints a pretty picture, to an Eastern reader the image takes on a deeper meaning.


So what does all this mean?

My thoughts were that since Sakura talked about her heart being like the Autumn sky, and then the chapter ends with "amid the gently falling snow" that those two had to be connected. If you think of it in terms of a haiku, with the seasonal reference as symbolic, then the two main characters are very far apart. She's confessing her love, but they are both still on their own journeys.

I'm very curious to see if there is another poetic mention of spring at the end of the manga when the true feelings are revealed.

I mentioned the "cutting word" because it also could be that in the end of the manga, we may be able to go back and look at her confession as the dividing line between the 'before' and the 'after.' There's nothing in the little phrases that implies that, it's just a common haiku device, so.... eh, why not.

Since Kishimoto has always pulled from historical sources for his characters, I don't think it's a big stretch for him to incorporate poetic devices here and there.

Has he done this other places that I have overlooked? I can't remember anyone else speaking in such a deeply personal way. You know, incorporating Japanese proverbs to describe how she feels.

And for the record, I think Sakura was fibbing about her heart being as fickle as the Autumn sky. That in reality it isn't - that her change in feelings was slow and steady, and has been happening from the beginning. At the moment she confesses, I think she's known for a while that she sees Naruto differently, but she doesn't want to draw attention to it.

Alright. This concludes the instructional portion of the debate thread. If you want to reference me for English papers, that's capital T, r-i-c-k-s-i-e, and tell your teacher you read it on the Interweb, where everything you read is true! jk laugh.gif

ps - I love haikus, and have worked a chapter of "Voice in the Wind" around one! I also have stumbled across the love poems of Japanese courtiers - wonderful! They were little love notes noble women would leave for their samurai lovers. (If anyone wants me to post some, I'll start a new thread)

#283 crazyefra

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Posted 26 May 2010 - 10:30 PM

Wow, that was nice. Thank you for that information, it was very informative biggrin.gif .

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そして、あなたの声は私が聞いたすべてだった
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Pairings:
Naruto: NaruSaku, (Fem)NaruSaku, NaruSasu (as brothers, rivals, best friends), ShikaTema, NaruInoSaku, NaruHarem (excluding Hinata), MinaKushi, ChouIno, YahiKona
Fairy Tail: NatsuLucy, NatsuErza :D
Bleach: IchiRukia

Characters:
Naruto: Naruto, Sakura, Shikamaru, Konan, Gaara, Kushina, Kakashi, Ino
Fairy Tail: Erza, Happy, Natsu, Grey, Lucy, Gajeel
Bleach: Ichigo, Nell, Kenpachi, Rukia, Karin, Kon

Misc.: Linkin Park, Green Day


In between Anti and Pro: --Click here to view--

Pairings:
Naruto: NaruSakuHina, SakuHina, NaruTayu, KibaHina, SakuKarin
Bleach: IchiHime

Characters:
Naruto: Hinata, Tayuya, Karin, Itachi
Bleach: Orihime, Chad

Misc.: Yuri :D



Pairings:
Naruto: SasuSaku, NaruHina, NaruSasu (as gay lovers), KakaSaku, SasuAnyone, ShikaIno

Characters:
Naruto: Sasuke, Madara, "fanon" Hinata (not to be confused with canon Hinata), Kabuto
Bleach: Aizen, Yamamoto

Misc.:Twilight, Yaoi, Fillers, Sakura bashing

#284 Guest_New Revolution_*

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Posted 26 May 2010 - 10:37 PM

got to say that was interesting an nice thanks for the info tricksie-chan who knew.

#285 catsi563

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Posted 26 May 2010 - 10:38 PM

she wasnt really fibbing actually, more like being fececious.but the intent was to lighten the mood a bit, and let him know she had changed.

Eastern story telling uses a lot of imagery and poetic notions in its telling. the imagery of the seasons is a long used one in eastern culture. Each season representing different emotional contexts and the changing of each one to the enxt representing a change in the story from one chapter to the next, or in characterization as a change in the character itself.
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#286 Dreamer

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Posted 26 May 2010 - 10:59 PM

QUOTE (crazyefra @ May 26 2010, 04:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I know I shouldn't post this but after seeing this, I just can't believe it. If someone does this for Sakura's confession or the hug I'll just leave this FC and never bother with any forum again until the end of the manga. I'm being serious.


Someone needs to put an NS countdown up to make the NH'rs freak out! heheelq7.png

Two can play at that game, Here is mine: NaruSaku becomes Cannon in

I hope you guys liked it. happy.gif

#287 crazyefra

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Posted 26 May 2010 - 11:14 PM

how silly of you heheelq7.png

----------------
Now playing: Green Day - Warning
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そして、あなたの声は私が聞いたすべてだった
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Pairings:
Naruto: NaruSaku, (Fem)NaruSaku, NaruSasu (as brothers, rivals, best friends), ShikaTema, NaruInoSaku, NaruHarem (excluding Hinata), MinaKushi, ChouIno, YahiKona
Fairy Tail: NatsuLucy, NatsuErza :D
Bleach: IchiRukia

Characters:
Naruto: Naruto, Sakura, Shikamaru, Konan, Gaara, Kushina, Kakashi, Ino
Fairy Tail: Erza, Happy, Natsu, Grey, Lucy, Gajeel
Bleach: Ichigo, Nell, Kenpachi, Rukia, Karin, Kon

Misc.: Linkin Park, Green Day


In between Anti and Pro: --Click here to view--

Pairings:
Naruto: NaruSakuHina, SakuHina, NaruTayu, KibaHina, SakuKarin
Bleach: IchiHime

Characters:
Naruto: Hinata, Tayuya, Karin, Itachi
Bleach: Orihime, Chad

Misc.: Yuri :D



Pairings:
Naruto: SasuSaku, NaruHina, NaruSasu (as gay lovers), KakaSaku, SasuAnyone, ShikaIno

Characters:
Naruto: Sasuke, Madara, "fanon" Hinata (not to be confused with canon Hinata), Kabuto
Bleach: Aizen, Yamamoto

Misc.:Twilight, Yaoi, Fillers, Sakura bashing

#288 Gravenimage

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Posted 26 May 2010 - 11:23 PM

QUOTE (crazyefra @ May 26 2010, 01:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I know I shouldn't post this but after seeing this, I just can't believe it. If someone does this for Sakura's confession or the hug I'll just leave this FC and never bother with any forum again until the end of the manga. I'm being serious.

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#289 Toasty Warrior

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Posted 27 May 2010 - 12:26 AM

QUOTE (crazyefra @ May 26 2010, 02:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I know I shouldn't post this but after seeing this, I just can't believe it. If someone does this for Sakura's confession or the hug I'll just leave this FC and never bother with any forum again until the end of the manga. I'm being serious.

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On boy... that is definitely worth a facepalm, but better yeah let me have someone do it for me.

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#290 ShippudenGirl

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Posted 27 May 2010 - 01:09 AM

I just had a stupid thought...

Do you think Sakura cutting her hair could be like a separation from Sasuke?

Like, when she was training with Tsunade, she grew her hair back out then cut it again :L If I remember correctly the the reason she did grow it out was to get Sasuke's attention.

#291 Toasty Warrior

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Posted 27 May 2010 - 01:13 AM

I always thought that Sakura cutting her hair was a sign of her getting rid of one of her weaknesses.

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#292 ShippudenGirl

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Posted 27 May 2010 - 01:16 AM

QUOTE (FullMetalMac @ May 27 2010, 01:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I always thought that Sakura cutting her hair was a sign of her getting rid of one of her weaknesses.


Hm, yeah but the reason she grew it out in the first place was to attract Sasuke, then she cut it, grew it out again, then cut it.

#293 Miss Soupy

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Posted 27 May 2010 - 01:21 AM

Sakura cut her hair because she finally decided to be serious about being a ninja. Before she had been just trying to be with Sasuke rather than doing what she really wanted to do. She just decided she wanted to be strong for herself for once XD I dunno why she grew it back while training with Tsunade, but perhaps kishimoto just wanted to show the passing of time? Not sure, but it doesn't really matter anymore because it wasn't grown out for Sasuke that time.

#294 crazyefra

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Posted 27 May 2010 - 01:26 AM

Maybe Tsunade told her to grow it during her training kruemelmonsteryn0.gif

----------------
Now playing: Green Day - Warning
via FoxyTunes
そして、あなたの声は私が聞いたすべてだった
しかし、私に値するものを手に入れる


Pairings:
Naruto: NaruSaku, (Fem)NaruSaku, NaruSasu (as brothers, rivals, best friends), ShikaTema, NaruInoSaku, NaruHarem (excluding Hinata), MinaKushi, ChouIno, YahiKona
Fairy Tail: NatsuLucy, NatsuErza :D
Bleach: IchiRukia

Characters:
Naruto: Naruto, Sakura, Shikamaru, Konan, Gaara, Kushina, Kakashi, Ino
Fairy Tail: Erza, Happy, Natsu, Grey, Lucy, Gajeel
Bleach: Ichigo, Nell, Kenpachi, Rukia, Karin, Kon

Misc.: Linkin Park, Green Day


In between Anti and Pro: --Click here to view--

Pairings:
Naruto: NaruSakuHina, SakuHina, NaruTayu, KibaHina, SakuKarin
Bleach: IchiHime

Characters:
Naruto: Hinata, Tayuya, Karin, Itachi
Bleach: Orihime, Chad

Misc.: Yuri :D



Pairings:
Naruto: SasuSaku, NaruHina, NaruSasu (as gay lovers), KakaSaku, SasuAnyone, ShikaIno

Characters:
Naruto: Sasuke, Madara, "fanon" Hinata (not to be confused with canon Hinata), Kabuto
Bleach: Aizen, Yamamoto

Misc.:Twilight, Yaoi, Fillers, Sakura bashing

#295 Toasty Warrior

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Posted 27 May 2010 - 01:28 AM

You know on the subject of Sakura's hair being long, doesn't anyone else find it funny how much Sakura looks like Kushina in one of those panels? I don't know maybe it's just me...

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#296 Sherry

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Posted 27 May 2010 - 01:32 AM

Agreed! For me, Sakura's short hair shows that she's no longer being Sasgay's puppy, but she's able to stand herself.
About Sakura's long hair along her training...maybe she's too busy training with Tsunade. She has time to cut it after she's done with the most training, and that took time just before Naruto's arrival

Edited by Sherry, 27 May 2010 - 01:39 AM.


#297 Gravenimage

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Posted 27 May 2010 - 02:10 AM

Sakura cutting her hair is a sign of her maturity as a character that she finally wanted to become a true ninja and not some shallow girl with a silly crush on the popular boy in the village. It was also a sign of her own resolve she wanted to be strong so she could protect both Naruto and Sasuke instead of them fighting the battles while she stands on the side lines watching their backs. She didn't wanted to be a burden to her team anymore but a real ninja who fights to protect her friends and her village, yet Kishi man why don't you stop showing Sakura as a burden? (if anyone remembers what happened in the last arc?)

Edited by Gravenimage, 27 May 2010 - 02:12 AM.

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#298 MangaReader

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Posted 27 May 2010 - 03:23 AM

QUOTE (Gravenimage @ May 27 2010, 02:10 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Sakura cutting her hair is a sign of her maturity as a character that she finally wanted to become a true ninja and not some shallow girl with a silly crush on the popular boy in the village. It was also a sign of her own resolve she wanted to be strong so she could protect both Naruto and Sasuke instead of them fighting the battles while she stands on the side lines watching their backs. She didn't wanted to be a burden to her team anymore but a real ninja who fights to protect her friends and her village, yet Kishi man why don't you stop showing Sakura as a burden? (if anyone remembers what happened in the last arc?)

True words my friend, true words. I too wish that Sakura will get her time to shine.

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#299 pinkheartsyellowstars

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Posted 27 May 2010 - 03:38 AM

QUOTE (catsi563 @ May 26 2010, 08:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
its not bad at all. Its a classic story telling trope especially in eastern story telling.

its primarily used to show the change in a womans heart, that it can and does change over time. Its used in this context to show how Sakura has changed to see Naruto with her heart after all this time.

it can also be used in a fececious manner as a small joke to lighten the mood between a woman and a guy she likes.

but in general its a serious phrase used in a confession to denote that change.



QUOTE (tricksie @ May 26 2010, 09:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I've debated about opening a thread on that funny little statement and the "in the falling snow" one at the end of that chapter, so I'm glad others are talking about it! Yay!

I've wondered about those two phrases. They are jarring in a manga, especially since they have to do with seasons. The snow one especially. It's like a scrap of poetry tacked on to the end of the chapter. And I've spent an unreasonable amount of time thinking about it. smile.gif

I don't know much about eastern story telling devices, but in traditional haikus the presence of season is tremendously important. (It's called a kigo, if you're interested.)

So when I read both of those statements — one a proverb, the other a poetic reference, both in the same chapter and both in a somewhat poetic tone — it immediately brought to mind the use of seasons in Japanese haikus.

There is also an interesting technique in traditional haikus where the author uses a "cutting word," a word on which the poem turns in it's meaning. It can give a natural pause to the flow of thought, or it's a way for the author to force the reader to compare between 'the before' and 'the after' in the poem.

More about seasons as a Japanese literary device --Click here to view--

"The insistence on time and place was crucial for writers of haiku. The seasonal reference was called a kigo and a haiku was thought to be incomplete without it. In Basho's poem quoted above, for example, the phrase aki fuhaki, "deep autumn" or "autumn deepens" is traditional and had accumulated resonances and associations from earlier poetry as well as from the Japanese way of thinking about time and change. So does the reference to snow-yulei, which can also mean "snowfall"-in Buson's poems. It is always connected to a sense of exposure to the elements,
for which there is also a traditional phrase, fuyuzare,
which means "winter bareness." - by Robert Haas, "The Essential Haiku"

I'll sum up the rest: He goes on to write that in European traditions, the seasons are not so tightly woven into the storytelling. Wordsworth would write about a "in pensive or in wayward mood," whereas it was very common to use images to evoke the state of mind.

Like "the old Japanese phrase the sums up the transience of things, "swirling petals, falling leaves." To a European reader it paints a pretty picture, to an Eastern reader the image takes on a deeper meaning.

So what does all this mean?

My thoughts were that since Sakura talked about her heart being like the Autumn sky, and then the chapter ends with "amid the gently falling snow" that those two had to be connected. If you think of it in terms of a haiku, with the seasonal reference as symbolic, then the two main characters are very far apart. She's confessing her love, but they are both still on their own journeys.

I'm very curious to see if there is another poetic mention of spring at the end of the manga when the true feelings are revealed.

I mentioned the "cutting word" because it also could be that in the end of the manga, we may be able to go back and look at her confession as the dividing line between the 'before' and the 'after.' There's nothing in the little phrases that implies that, it's just a common haiku device, so.... eh, why not.

Since Kishimoto has always pulled from historical sources for his characters, I don't think it's a big stretch for him to incorporate poetic devices here and there.

Has he done this other places that I have overlooked? I can't remember anyone else speaking in such a deeply personal way. You know, incorporating Japanese proverbs to describe how she feels.

And for the record, I think Sakura was fibbing about her heart being as fickle as the Autumn sky. That in reality it isn't - that her change in feelings was slow and steady, and has been happening from the beginning. At the moment she confesses, I think she's known for a while that she sees Naruto differently, but she doesn't want to draw attention to it.

Alright. This concludes the instructional portion of the debate thread. If you want to reference me for English papers, that's capital T, r-i-c-k-s-i-e, and tell your teacher you read it on the Interweb, where everything you read is true! jk laugh.gif

ps - I love haikus, and have worked a chapter of "Voice in the Wind" around one! I also have stumbled across the love poems of Japanese courtiers - wonderful! They were little love notes noble women would leave for their samurai lovers. (If anyone wants me to post some, I'll start a new thread)


So if this would be the case, why would ANS used this line to add insult for NS? rolleyes.gif I kinda don't get it.

Edited by pinkheartsyellowstars, 27 May 2010 - 03:39 AM.


#300 catsi563

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Posted 27 May 2010 - 07:45 AM

its for the same reason that NaruSasu fans misconstrue Narutos bond to Sasuke.

its a complete misunderstanding of the cultural metaphor and style of story telling. it makes for an easy excuse to bash the character and they can easilly ((read intentionally)) misconstrue the intant.

look at the I can tell you really L... speach from yamato. it was patently obvious given the context of the moment what he was implying, but antis auntomatically buried it with an idiotic confidence issue argument.
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