640 replies to this topic

[SkyStrider]

The only thing that is ever said about his treatment from the villagers was that they always ignored him.

Never has it been stated that he has been physically abused, not even Naruto himself when we learn more about his past in VotE. He was always ignored.

Then tell me, what other possible reason is there for Naruto to HATE the village? Shunning him/ignoring him doesn't work, since the Rookie Nine did it all throughout his childhood, and he never admits to hating them specifically. Insulting him doesn't work, as the various people I've listed all tried that, and no dice. If that's all he got from the village, then he wouldn't have hated the village. YET HE DID. What other reason besides physical abuse could exist to make him feel outright HATE, given that the stated alternatives have clearly shown themselves to not be enough?

I mean, if he was being abused, Naruto wouldn't have spent so much time trying to get people to notice him, now would he?

Actually, he still would. If he gets people to notice him and be friends with him, maybe there's a chance those people would eventually try to help him when he's in a tight spot (the exact thing Iruka did when Mizuki tried to kill him). And maybe eventually, those people find a way to help him get through the abuse or stop it altogether. Or there could be more to this: His dream, as stated in Chapter 1, is to be the Hokage so people "acknowledge him". And as he himself states, the Hokage is the strongest person in the village. So try this interpretation on for size:

I want to be the Hokage because if I can somehow get to be the Hokage, everyone in this village will finally know that you can't mess with me, and so they'll stop hurting me.

Is it a darker interpretation of the Naruto dream we've all come to know and love? Perhaps. Is is consistent with the thoughts he had of his life before Iruka accepted him and before he finally found his so-called "precious people"? In my honest opinion, absolutely. On the same token, do I believe this interpretation still applies to him today? Certainly not. But that still doesn't mean I don't think it applied at one time...

Really, for the same reason you have stated, what is stopping any ninja in the village from killing Naruto? If they truly hated him and abused him like you said, somebody would have already killed him, and the Sandaime wouldn't even know about it.

What is stopping any ninja from killing him? The fact that even though Sandaime would not have watched over him 24/7, he still would have eventually noticed if Naruto had been killed. Someone would have opened their big mouths sometime, if only to off-handedly comment about their joy that "justice had been served" or something like that. And if all else failed, Sandaime would at least have begun to wonder where Naruto had disappeared off to if he had tried to visit /check up on him and found him missing. So to just kill off Naruto without any sort of viable alibi would have likely equated to suicide for a Konoha nin in the sense of risking Sarutobi's wrath. However, the stealing of the scroll finally provided them with the perfect opportunity; If they were to kill him, they could easily say that it was accidental, or that he gave them no other choice, or something like that. After all, Sandaime himself realized that there was a possibility that Naruto could have been dangerous with the scroll. Hence, we see the ninja all grouped-up together being gung-ho about going off to kill him on sight.

But abuse is different. It could be a punch or a kick (or two) when he's not looking, or beat-ups by kids who were silently encouraged and protected by their parents. Heck, it could even be as innocent-looking as an "accident" resulting in him being tackled, tripped up or something like that. It could be vandalization of property, or the ruining of his food when he goes off to eat. It could have been a rock or two thrown at him from a place he can't see, or a bucket of boiling hot water poured over him accidentally. I could go on and on. The key thing here is that it would have had to have been abusive enough to make Naruto utterly hate, yet something he could recover from naturally without visible signs for Sarutobi or anyone else to find (not a difficult task given that he had quick regeneration powers). And it would have had to have been a secret thing, given that something such as outrageous, continuous abuse in broad daylight would be pretty tough to cover up time after time. After all, the villagers aren't stupid; if they were clever enough to not do so much as talk about the Kyuubi with Sarutobi around, I doubt they'd risk themselves foolishly by abusing Naruto out in a street in broad daylight when they could easily do so in a back alley somewhere. The bottom line is that killing Naruto would have been too conspicuous, but secretly wrought physical abuse (if premeditated correctly), would not. Hence why I think Konoha didn't try to do the former until they had a perfect chance (Chapter 1), and why I think they did the latter chronically.

But then again, these are just my theories and my interpretations.

SkyStrider

[MagusKyros]

Then tell me, what other possible reason is there for Naruto to HATE the village? Shunning him/ignoring him doesn't work, since the Rookie Nine did it all throughout his childhood, and he never admits to hating them specifically. Insulting him doesn't work, as the various people I've listed all tried that, and no dice. If that's all he got from the village, then he wouldn't have hated the village. YET HE DID. What other reason besides physical abuse could exist to make him feel outright HATE, given that the stated alternatives have clearly shown themselves to not be enough?

I don't know about you, but if everybody tended to ignore me no matter what I did, I'd be pretty pissed to. How would you feel if parents repeatedly took their kids away from you when you were just trying to make a friend time after time?

Actually, he still would. If he gets people to notice him and be friends with him, maybe there's a chance those people would eventually try to help him when he's in a tight spot (the exact thing Iruka did when Mizuki tried to kill him). And maybe eventually, those people find a way to help him get through the abuse or stop it altogether. Or there could be more to this: His dream, as stated in Chapter 1, is to be the Hokage so people "acknowledge him". And as he himself states, the Hokage is the strongest person in the village. So try this interpretation on for size:

I want to be the Hokage because if I can somehow get to be the Hokage, everyone in this village will finally know that you can't mess with me, and so they'll stop hurting me.

Is it a darker interpretation of the Naruto dream we've all come to know and love? Perhaps. Is is consistent with the thoughts he had of his life before Iruka accepted him and before he finally found his so-called "precious people"? In my honest opinion, absolutely. On the same token, do I believe this interpretation still applies to him today? Certainly not. But that still doesn't mean I don't think it applied at one time...

That still doesn't explain why Naruto would want to attract attention from people who have 'physically harmed' him. I mean, everybody treated him the same, if one person were to punch him, what are the chances some others would?

What is stopping any ninja from killing him? The fact that even though Sandaime would not have watched over him 24/7, he still would have eventually noticed if Naruto had been killed. Someone would have opened their big mouths sometime, if only to off-handedly comment about their joy that "justice had been served" or something like that. And if all else failed, Sandaime would at least have begun to wonder where Naruto had disappeared off to if he had tried to visit /check up on him and found him missing. So to just kill off Naruto without any sort of viable alibi would have likely equated to suicide for a Konoha nin in the sense of risking Sarutobi's wrath. However, the stealing of the scroll finally provided them with the perfect opportunity; If they were to kill him, they could easily say that it was accidental, or that he gave them no other choice, or something like that. After all, Sandaime himself realized that there was a possibility that Naruto could have been dangerous with the scroll. Hence, we see the ninja all grouped-up together being gung-ho about going off to kill him on sight.

But abuse is different. It could be a punch or a kick (or two) when he's not looking, or beat-ups by kids who were silently encouraged and protected by their parents. Heck, it could even be as innocent-looking as an "accident" resulting in him being tackled, tripped up or something like that. It could be vandalization of property, or the ruining of his food when he goes off to eat. It could have been a rock or two thrown at him from a place he can't see, or a bucket of boiling hot water poured over him accidentally. I could go on and on. The key thing here is that it would have had to have been abusive enough to make Naruto utterly hate, yet something he could recover from naturally without visible signs for Sarutobi or anyone else to find (not a difficult task given that he had quick regeneration powers). And it would have had to have been a secret thing, given that something such as outrageous, continuous abuse in broad daylight would be pretty tough to cover up time after time. After all, the villagers aren't stupid; if they were clever enough to not do so much as talk about the Kyuubi with Sarutobi around, I doubt they'd risk themselves foolishly by abusing Naruto out in a street in broad daylight when they could easily do so in a back ally somewhere. The bottom line is that killing Naruto would have been too conspicuous, but secretly wrought physical abuse (if premeditated correctly), would not. Hence why I think Konoha didn't try to do the former until they had a perfect chance (Chapter 1), and why I think they did the latter chronically.

But then again, these are just my theories and my interpretations.

SkyStrider

If Naruto were abused throughout random intervals of his childhood, wouldn't you think he would have told the Sandaime about it? He's probably the only person that Naruto would trust.

In the end though, I'll follow what the manga has said about Naruto's childhood. Making up interpretations is nice, and is sometimes required/recommended, but when something has already been discussed enough to make a conclusion, then it becomes less likely that certain things may have happened.

On another note, Naruto has stated that Gaara has had it worse than he did, and we know that to be true.

[SkyStrider]

I don't know about you, but if everybody tended to ignore me no matter what I did, I'd be pretty pissed to. How would you feel if parents repeatedly took their kids away from you when you were just trying to make a friend time after time?

Personally, I would be inclined to feel sadness more than hate. And given how forgiving Naruto has been to people who've hurt (or tried to hurt) things he calls dear, it's unlikely he would have felt hate at all. He didn't hate Haku, he didn't hate Zabuza, he didn't hate the Sand siblings (specifically Gaara), and he didn't hate Sai. Which leads me to believe that someone has to do a lot to get Naruto to hate, because he doesn't use that word lightly. And given how ignoring and shunning have clearly shown themselves to NOT lead him to hate, what else do you think there is that would?

That still doesn't explain why Naruto would want to attract attention from people who have 'physically harmed' him.

He didn't want attention per se. That's what Sarutobi told Iruka he wanted. What Naruto himself says he wants is recognition. And in the scene with Mizuki, what he's afraid he'll never get from Iruka is acknowledgement. In short, he wanted people to respect him for what he was. Look at what he says to Iruka whan Iruka asks him about being Hokage:

"One day, I'm going to get the Hokage name... and then I'll surpass all the previous Hokages! And then... And then I'll make the village recognize my strength!."

He didn't want the villagers to love him, he didn't want them to accept him as a friend. He simply wanted them to "recognise his strength". And given how he explicitly states that he hated Konoha before Iruka acknowledged him, he couldn't have meant that statement about "recognizing strength" in a benevolent, I-will-protect-everyone sort of way. Therefore, the only other possibility I can see that would require Naruto wanting people to see that he's strong is because people always thought they could abuse him thinking he was a little weak kid who couldn't do all that much to stop them from doing so by himself. And that means that there would have had to have been abuse in the first place.

If Naruto were abused throughout random intervals of his childhood, wouldn't you think he would have told the Sandaime about it? He's probably the only person that Naruto would trust.

You really think Naruto trusted Sandaime all that much? Do you really think he considered Sandaime to be close to him to the point of confiding stuff to him all the time? I certainly don't. If he did, you would think that Naruto would consider Sandaime to be one of his first "precious people", wouldn't you? But guess what? He doesn't. Instead, he sees IRUKA and TEAM 7 to be the first "precious people" he had. Up until Iruka's declaration of acceptance, the manga EXPLICITLY STATES that Naruto felt like he was "left alone" in the "hell" that was his life:

(quoted from Chapter 132) "If I think back to when I was alone... it brings fear back to me... that suffering... that darkness... that was hell itself. If I was left alone..."

And notice that in the frames after that, we have Naruto looking into a mirror, and seeing an image of Gaara. What's more, when we see the images of Naruto and his precious people compared to Garra and his lack thereof (in 132 and 252), notice who come into the picture alongside Naruto first: Iruka and Team 7. To me, the message is clear: Until Iruka and Team Seven came into his life, Naruto felt like he had no one. No one at all. So the idea that Sandaime was a trusted confidant of Naruto's during his childhood is an idea that is not supported by the manga.

In the end though, I'll follow what the manga has said about Naruto's childhood. Making up interpretations is nice, and is sometimes required/recommended, but when something has already been discussed enough to make a conclusion, then it becomes less likely that certain things may have happened.

Again, it's just my interpretation, and I've taken every pain to make sure that my ideas have a solid basis in the manga. After all, the manga doesn't show us any of the other attempts on Gaara's life besides what his uncle did. We are left to conclude that there were more given what Yashamaru said and Gaara's own thoughts/reflections. And given what the manga has stated and shown on Naruto's childhood, I cannot help but conclude that the people who hold to the belief that Naruto simply suffered shunning and indifference are selling the harsh, painful reality of his childhood short.

On another note, Naruto has stated that Gaara has had it worse than he did, and we know that to be true.

Of course Gaara had it worse than Naruto did. For all the abuse Naruto got in Konoha, Naruto never had to deal with the constant fear of being assassinated by ninja acting on the orders of his own father or family. And this was not just a threat; it was a cold reality, given what Gaara's uncle told Gaara before he blew himself up. If nothing else, Naruto was at least spared the unimaginable stress of having to worry if he would even survive to see another day or not. Gaara didn't even have that luxury.

SkyStrider

[Skyflower]

Things that I don't like. Ah, so many. I'm too picky for my own good, really. Though here are a few that weren't listed on the very first page:


Blame it on Akatsuki/Sound!
Yes, they are the main villains. Yes, there's very good reason to hate them. But c'mon, blaming them for every insignificant little bad thing that's happened? Even if it's canon, it's starting to get cliche. The protagonists of this series have bad points too, you know. Use them. Or at least explain why Akatsuki or Sound would be interested in doing such things. They both seem to be very goal-oriented organizations. Individual character quirks aside, they're not interested in torturing everybody they come across unless they're getting something out of it.

Crossing Characters
This is something that I see in doujinshi more often than fanfiction. One character will start acting like another (and in the case of doujinshi, looking like that character). Naruto is not a good replacement for Sasuke just because you've had an epiphany on Sasuke's bastardism. You see this most often in fics where SasuSaku fans are trying to write NaruSaku.

"Fluff"
I do not write "fluffy" fics, and I don't usually read them. All too often the male character(s) involved is made effeminate, or OOC in some other way. There's the whole seme/uke thing (which applies to het fics just as much as it does to slash ones), which I'll get to in a second. In other words, it's your usual fairytale love. All sighs and "awww"s and no development at all. Of course, there are exceptions, but I try to stay away from it, especially when it's bad enough that the author actually has to include a warning for it.

Badly Written Crack Pairings
There are good crack pairings out there, but when it's a rare one, and most of the fics that you can find for it are bad, most people tend to assume that the pairing itself is bad. This happened with my male-slash OTP. Which is sad, because it has the potential to be very interesting.

The "Seme/Uke" Dynamic
This is shallow. That's all there is to it. The majority of the characters in Naruto (and, hey, most other shounen series!) can be both aggressive and submissive. Besides that, the "seme/uke" relationship is usually determined by gender, age, height, hair color, and other things which have nothing to do with how they act around each other. An older character can be submissive around a younger character if the latter has a strong personality, and the former a weaker or quieter one. Switch it around a little! Show some creativity! So long as the characters aren't out of character, it's all well and good.



Oh yes, there will be more. When my brain starts working again. Those are the ones I hate most, though. As well as the more general things like Mary-sues and High School fics.

[Recompense]

Things i don't like in FF

1) WALLS... OF... TEXT!!!

2) Yaoi

3) NaruHina/sasuSaku I seriously just CAN'T stand them. i've tried, Chuck Norriss help me, i've tried to like them, but i simply can't. Well, that's a lie, i've tried liking NAURHINA, never sasuSaku.

other than that, i try to be open-minded, but i usually don't get past the fifth chapter if it's sucky

[Skyflower]

Mmkay, here's a little more for you.

Blame it on Akatsuki/Sound, continued:
This is closely tied to character bashing. It's where people take away anything that made a villain seem at all likable, understandable, or pitiable, and make them into mindless monsters. It's especially prevalent in series where the "villains" are on the line between being "good" and "evil" (Death Note, Yami no Matsuei, and D.Gray Man, for example). It really kills the whole fic when people do that, because you're stuck thinking "Wait, what? They never did things like that in the manga." It's OOC, and it's just plain bad taste.

Songfics:
It's nice that a song can inspire an author so much, but is it really necessary to add the lyrics in at random intervals? Sure, add some at the very top (and in quote form, please!), if you want to make it look fancy. But adding lyrics to the general body of the fic can really break the flow. Of course, there are exceptions, but not very many. It's also something that a lot of newer writers make the mistake of doing (I have a few buried in a journal somewhere).

Talk-show Style Fics:
These are fics where the author has a self-insert (or in rare cases, a canon character) host a Q and A style "show", where they have other characters from one (or many) series on as "guests". Sure, there are a few pretty darn humorous ones out there, but it's gotten very, very old now. I can't exactly say that I hate these things, but they do bore me to death.

Sap:
This goes along with fluff. Weepy, extremely helpless and childlike characters (either male or female) are dependent upon strong, macho-here type characters (who are always male, except in those rare few shoujo-ai fics that try it). It's like reading an old chick flick or uber-cliched action hero show. It's sometimes what people are trying to think of when they include a warning for fluff in their fics. But in reality, it's far worse than fluff. In "fluffy" fics, there's a possibility that all the characters in it can be IC (so long as you use the right characters). But in "sappy" fics, you have to make at least one of them OOC in order for it to work. And as far as I'm concerned, OOC-ness is one of fandom's greatest sins.

"Make-Over" Fics
Please, God, why? This is as OOC as OOC gets. It's where people take a character and make them have an epiphany of some sort that completely changes their personality. One of the most common in the Naruto fandom is Hinata suddenly becoming bold, and Sasuke or Itachi repenting their sins to become loving, caring, normal (or sometimes better than normal) boyfriends. It sickens me, really it does.

Rebirth Fics:
Ah, the reincarnation fic. Everybody's seen them. In fact, there's usually nothing wrong with them on the basic level, except that they've been done to death. Every single fandom has them; Where a character that's died comes back to life in a body that's identical, or nearly identical to their original one. Really, what's the point of reincarnating at all if you're just going to be a copy of your former self? But, you know, you can put a creative twist on it. I've seen plenty of really interesting ones- Just like every other good fic, you have to dig for an eternity to find them. But it can be done.

"Pick a Guy, Any Guy!"
You know these. There are so many that they should have their own FF.net section (if they don't already, it's been a while). A girl has to choose between two guys she likes equally (and, of course, there is the occasional reverse, and copious amounts of shounen-ai and shoujo-ai versions). It can sometimes be interesting if a good author does it, but it's usually a repeat of the same old thing. What's more, there's rarely a plot, besides the general "get everybody paired off" thing. You end up just wanting them to flip a coin to get it over with most of the time (or better yet, end up in a threesome and spare everybody the horribly predictable ending. At least it would be a surprise.) Why are most of them predictable in the first place, though? Because the majority of the people who write the darn things show their own personal pairing preference very early on in the fic. Rarely does anybody try to make the end pairing a surprise.


Well, there are more, but... I think it's apparent enough already that I'm a fic-nazi. X3

[MagusKyros]

Personally, I would be inclined to feel sadness more than hate. And given how forgiving Naruto has been to people who've hurt (or tried to hurt) things he calls dear, it's unlikely he would have felt hate at all. He didn't hate Haku, he didn't hate Zabuza, he didn't hate the Sand siblings (specifically Gaara), and he didn't hate Sai. Which leads me to believe that someone has to do a lot to get Naruto to hate, because he doesn't use that word lightly. And given how ignoring and shunning have clearly shown themselves to NOT lead him to hate, what else do you think there is that would?

What reason would Naruto have to hate Zabuza? It's not like he knew him or anything. Haku was the same. Just because he attacked them is no reason for any negative emotion. They were on a mission, and they were bound to encounter people. There was no reason to hate the Sand Siblings either, they never did anything to Naruto. And Naruto has gotten angry at Sai a couple of times, but those weren't a big deal.

He didn't want attention per se. That's what Sarutobi told Iruka he wanted. What Naruto himself says he wants is recognition. And in the scene with Mizuki, what he's afraid he'll never get from Iruka is acknowledgement. In short, he wanted people to respect him for what he was. Look at what he says to Iruka whan Iruka asks him about being Hokage:

"One day, I'm going to get the Hokage name... and then I'll surpass all the previous Hokages! And then... And then I'll make the village recognize my strength!."

He didn't want the villagers to love him, he didn't want them to accept him as a friend. He simply wanted them to "recognise his strength". And given how he explicitly states that he hated Konoha before Iruka acknowledged him, he couldn't have meant that statement about "recognizing strength" in a benevolent, I-will-protect-everyone sort of way. Therefore, the only other possibility I can see that would require Naruto wanting people to see that he's strong is because people always thought they could abuse him thinking he was a little weak kid who couldn't do all that much to stop them from doing so by himself. And that means that there would have had to have been abuse in the first place.

Once again, he wanted to be acknowledged because he was alone. Here, read from these three links. There is no mention of him wanting power. He wanted to be acknowledged because noone else would.

http://groups.msn.co...p;PhotoID=33215
http://groups.msn.co...p;PhotoID=33216
http://groups.msn.co...p;PhotoID=33218

You really think Naruto trusted Sandaime all that much? Do you really think he considered Sandaime to be close to him to the point of confiding stuff to him all the time? I certainly don't. If he did, you would think that Naruto would consider Sandaime to be one of his first "precious people", wouldn't you? But guess what? He doesn't. Instead, he sees IRUKA and TEAM 7 to be the first "precious people" he had. Up until Iruka's declaration of acceptance, the manga EXPLICITLY STATES that Naruto felt like he was "left alone" in the "hell" that was his life:

(quoted from Chapter 132) "If I think back to when I was alone... it brings fear back to me... that suffering... that darkness... that was hell itself. If I was left alone..."

And notice that in the frames after that, we have Naruto looking into a mirror, and seeing an image of Gaara. What's more, when we see the images of Naruto and his precious people compared to Garra and his lack thereof (in 132 and 252), notice who come into the picture alongside Naruto first: Iruka and Team 7. To me, the message is clear: Until Iruka and Team Seven came into his life, Naruto felt like he had no one. No one at all. So the idea that Sandaime was a trusted confidant of Naruto's during his childhood is an idea that is not supported by the manga.

Unless the Sandaime mistreated Naruto, which I doubt, he would have no reason NOT to trust him. After all, you wouldn't feel pain for someone whom was never close to you.

Again, it's just my interpretation, and I've taken every pain to make sure that my ideas have a solid basis in the manga. After all, the manga doesn't show us any of the other attempts on Gaara's life besides what his uncle did. We are left to conclude that there were more given what Yashamaru said and Gaara's own thoughts/reflections. And given what the manga has stated and shown on Naruto's childhood, I cannot help but conclude that the people who hold to the belief that Naruto simply suffered shunning and indifference are selling the harsh, painful reality of his childhood short.

SkyStrider

Because that's all that is said and shown. If Naruto was abused in his life, it would have already been said already, but all he talks about is getting people to acknowledge his existence and is thankful for them to get him out of his loneliness.

Being alone sucks, trust me, I know, and I don't really like the feeling. (thank god it was only for a month). There is nothing being sold short.

[SkyStrider]

What reason would Naruto have to hate Zabuza? It's not like he knew him or anything. Haku was the same. Just because he attacked them is no reason for any negative emotion. They were on a mission, and they were bound to encounter people. There was no reason to hate the Sand Siblings either, they never did anything to Naruto. And Naruto has gotten angry at Sai a couple of times, but those weren't a big deal.

What reason would Naruto have to hate Zabuza, Haku, the Sand, and Sai? BEACUSE THEY WERE A CONSTANT THREAT TO THOSE HE BEGAN TO CONSIDER AS HIS "PRECIOUS PEOPLE"!!! This is the exact reason why Naruto hated/hates Orochimaru, Itachi and the Akatsuki! Zabuza wanted to kill Kakashi twice over, Haku almost killed Sasuke, Gaara and the Sand almost killed both Sasuke and Sakura, and Sai was on a mission to assassinate Sasuke. Going by what we know of Naruto, all of these people fulfilled the qualifications of potentially being a target of Naruto's hate. Yet, he never came to hate them. So why would Naruto hate Orochimaru/Akatsuki, and not these people? Because Orochimaru and Akatsuki did things that went above and beyond the point where Naruto could hold back his hate. And, going by Naruto's own comments as to how he regarded Konoha, the villagers also did something to him to make him cross this line. But if the villagers did nothing more than shun and reject him (as you and many others here insist on maintaining), then why did Naruto not apply this same "hatred" in his mind towards the Rookie Nine, who did the EXACT SAME THING?!?!? Where's the declaration(s) that he "hated" his classmates and everyone who graduated with him, one by one? Where's the declaration that he hated Sasuke, who ignored his efforts to reach out shortly after the Uchiha Massacre (and continued to do so until the Wave mission roughly 5 years later)? Given that the villagers get this hatred from him and the Rookies don't, logic would tell you that the villagers had to have done something to go above and beyond what the Rookies did, meaning that the villages gave him what the Rookies did (shunning, insults, and rejection), plus something else to push him to hate them. And given how Naruto (a hate-averse person in that world if there ever was one) has a mentality of only truly hating those who threaten what is precious to him, the villagers would have had to hurt whatever thing Naruto still considered precious in his childhood in a way that the Rookies never did. Now we can use some simple logic to see what actually happened. What was that thing the villagers hurt? Naruto himself (which was the only thing he still had at that point). In what way did they hurt him? In the only way that was still left after the Rookies and the Academy go through with him (physical abuse).

Once again, he wanted to be acknowledged because he was alone. Here, read from these three links. There is no mention of him wanting power. He wanted to be acknowledged because noone else would.

http://groups.msn.co...p;PhotoID=33215
http://groups.msn.co...p;PhotoID=33216
http://groups.msn.co...p;PhotoID=33218

For one thing, every single one of those quotes comes AFTER Iruka accepts him, which is the turning point in Naruto's life. At that point, his focus shifts from getting people to acknowledge his strength to getting people to care about him. And furthermore, that pain of Gaara's he refers to (the one he can understand) is NOT the pain of being alone and wanting people to accept you. As Naruto himself reflects:

"... and I realized, that this feeling is the most painful... it's to realize that... your existence is not wanted in this world..."

Naruto's pain doesn't come from loneliness, people. He doesn't understand Gaara just because they are two sweet boys who spent their lives looking for a friend (though they certainly are). Naruto's past pain comes from knowing that like Gaara, no one wanted him to live. It's from knowing that, no matter how hard you tried or how good (or even bad) you acted, people simply wanted you to dissappear from this world. That's the source of his pain. And before Iruka's acceptance, he stated his dream of being Hokage was to have the whole village "acknowledge my strength". And given his hatred for the village at that point in time, one can easliy interpret his words like this:

"I want to be the Hokage because when I get to be the Hokage, everyone in this village will finally know that you can't mess with me unless you want to get hurt. And furthermore, they'll know that I won't be dissapparing anytime soon, nor can they make me."

To me, that is much more consistent with Naruto's thoughts and feelings (at that point) than saying he wanted to be the Hokage just so people could accept him as one of them and so he wouldn't be alone. Because if the latter were the case, he would have no need to feel the hatred he so emphatically says he felt towards the village.

But again, this changed upon Iruka's acceptance. Why? Because finally, Naruto had a guy who, deep down inside, actually wanted him to live. Iruka, unlike virtually everyone Naruto encountered up to that point, actually wanted Naruto to live and exist. From then on, Naruto's dream changes. Suddenly, he's found somone who actually cares for his livelihood. Suddenly, he has someone to protect. And when Team 7 comes in and does the same, Naruto's dreams grow and change. NOW he's the boy who wants to be Hokage so he can get people to care about him. NOW he's the boy who doesn't want to be alone anymore. He got a taste of life on the other side, and now he'll do anything to keep getting more and not go back to what he was. And now, he's thinking: "If I can get Iruka, my team, and my classmates to care about me, maybe I can get others to care for me, too." Hence, we have the Naruto we see now. But still, what he is now does not and should not change the fact that he apparently used to be a VERY different person about to embark on a VERY different path...

Unless the Sandaime mistreated Naruto, which I doubt, he would have no reason NOT to trust him. After all, you wouldn't feel pain for someone whom was never close to you.

Actually, he could. The village of Konoha apparently felt enough pain for Sarutobi to the point where everyone congregated for a memorial service in the middle of a downpour wearing black mourning clothes. And that's saying something. And there could be more to this; note that Naruto didn't exactly say he felt pain for Sarutobi, just that "death" really was a painful thing. Perhaps Naruto, at that time, finally understood once and for all that being the Hokage didn't make you invincible or immortal? After all, Naruto had always looked upon the Hokages as god-like figures. Perhaps he finally realized that the Hokage was every bit as mortal as himself? Given Naruto's thoughts as to the Hokage position, that would be quite a painful train of thought as well.

Because that's all that is said and shown. If Naruto was abused in his life, it would have already been said already, but all he talks about is getting people to acknowledge his existence and is thankful for them to get him out of his loneliness.

Being alone sucks, trust me, I know, and I don't really like the feeling. (thank god it was only for a month). There is nothing being sold short.

For what it's worth, I've been alone, too (and for far longer than just a month), and I can personally tell you that loneliness inspires sadness far more than it inspires hate. But that's not important here. What is important is that a lot of things aren't said or shown in the manga, yet are still assumed to be true. The fact that the Rock and Cloud Villages are still standing, for one. The belief that every single jinchiuuriki in history lived a sad life, for another. The belief that Danzo was as powerful a ninja as Sarutobi, for another (the manga says he was his "rival" in consideration for Sandaime, but doesn't say anything more regarding his skill as a ninja). The belief that the Sandaime Mizukage is still in power in Kirigakure, and the further fact that the Mist Village has gone back to their tradition of killing half their prospective Genin class for graduation. Heck, even the assumption that Sasuke never made any friends even BEFORE the massacre (and that Naruto was his very first true friend, and not just his "best friend")is not explicitly shown or said in the manga, but assumed to be true given how hard he trained and how dedicated he was to just being a ninja.

My point is, people can look "underneath the underneath" and see what's really going on based on what the manga says AND personally applied logic. In this case, the assumption that Naruto came to hate the villagers simply because he was shunned, ignored, insulted, and rejected holds absolutely no water given that we see another group of people do the exact same thing for just about the same exact amount of time (the Rookie Nine) without getting the same treatment. Therefore, logic would tell you that there's something else the villagers would have had to do to Naruto that his graduation class didn't already do to him to inspire this hard-won hatred. And I believe I've shown plenty of reasons as to why physical abuse is the only other possibility left. And in that sense (the sense that people still hold onto that initial belief despite al evidence to the contrary), Naruto's past suffering is indeed being sold short; criminally so, even.

SkyStrider

[Nate River]

Why reason would Naruto have to hate all Zabuza, Haku, the Sand, and Sai? BEACUSE THEY WERE A CONSTANT THREAT TO THOSE HE BEGAN TO CONSIDER AS HIS "PRECIOUS PEOPLE"!!! This is the exact reason why Naruto hated/hates Orochimaru, Itachi and the Akatsuki! Zabuza wanted to kill Kakashi twice over, Haku almost killed Sasuke, Gaara and the Sand almost killed both Sasuke and Sakura, and Sai was on a mission to assassinate Sasuke. Going by what we know of Naruto, all of these people fulfilled the qualifications of potentially being a target of Naruto's hate. Yet, he never came to hate them. So why would Naruto hate Orochimaru/Akatsuki, and not these people? Because Orochimaru and Akatsuki did things that went above and beyond the point where Naruto could hold back his hate. And, going by Naruto's own comments as to how he regarded Konoha, the villagers also did something to him to make him cross this line. But if the villagers did nothing more than shun and reject him (as you and many others here insist on maintaining), then why did Naruto not apply this same "hatred" in his mind towards the Rookie Nine, who did the EXACT SAME THING?!?!?

When you say that you're assuming a complete internal consistency on Kishimoto's part when he's proven in just this arc alone than isn't always the case. Second, Mizura's structural analysis (see the thread on Kishimoto's writing ability) would actually explain why that possible discrepancy might arise.

Second, the didn't just ignore him, the openly rejected him. Constantly. Being alone sucks, but it's much worse when it's forced on you and in process it's constantly implied your worthless.

Third, if the physical abuse was significant at all, it would stand too reason that Kishimoto would at the very least play a passing mention to this, but Kishimoto doesn't even elude to it. At All. If physical abuse is a significant piece of the puzzle, why leave so much to assumption? Kisihimoto even provides offers reasons what it might NOT have occurred. If I recall, the punishment for even talking about Kyuubi was death. How knows what happens if it even comes to The Third's attention that Naruto's been physically abused. Thus, they'd have to have been pretty damn discreet about it. Would most people report it? No. Would many injuries heal before being seen. Yes, probably. But unless they are that good, it's tough to believe that the Third never caught onto it.

It's reasonable to think the Third was a bit negligent in his supervision, as there are other instances where he was and he has alot of things dividing ihs attention. But for it to happen at even a semi-consistent basis and he never find out over the course of several years? Not sure I buy that? I thought there was also a mention about having great respect for the Fourth. However, I lack the will to look that up at the moment and might just be anime only, so I won't cite that as evidence until I can verify that is says and implies what I think it does.

To shun him the way they did makes sense, because they can reject his existence without placing their own heads in a noose.

For one thing, every single one of those quotes comes AFTER Iruka accepts him, which is the turning point in Naruto's life. At that point, his focus shifts from getting people to acknowledge his strength to getting people to care about him. And furthermore, that pain of Gaara's he refers to (the one he can understand) is NOT the pain of being alone and wanting people to accept you. As Naruto himself reflects:

"... and I realized, that this feeling is the most painful... it's to realize that... your existence is not wanted in this world..."

Naruto's pain doesn't come from loneliness, people. He doesn't understand Gaara just because they are two sweet boys who spent their lives looking for a friend (though they certainly are). Naruto's past pain comes from knowing that like Gaara, no one wanted him to live. It's from knowing that, no matter how hard you tried or how good (or even bad) you acted, people simply wanted you to dissappear from this world. That's the source of his pain. And before Iruka's acceptance, he stated his dream of being Hokage was to have the whole village "acknowledge my strength". And given his hatred for the village at that point in time, one can easliy interpret his words like this:

"I want to be the Hokage because when I get to be the Hokage, everyone in this village will finally know that you can't mess with me unless you want to get hurt. And furthermore, they'll know that I won't be dissapparing anytime soon, nor can they make me."

That they wanted him gone doesn't prove they did anything to actually make it happen beyond what was specifically stated in the manga. It's not that much of a stretch to say they might have, BUT if the abuse was significant in any way, why does he not even pay passing mention to it. You're presuming that the rejection wasn't enough to warrant they way he feels. But as I said before, you're assuming a complete internal consistency when one doesn't necessarily exist and second there isn't any explanation for the paucity of evidence regarding this issue. Yeah, Kishimoto leaves some stuff open, but if such abuse were a significant part of his character development, I think we'd see at least something, but it's just not there.

I'm not even sure there is the inconsistency you mention, but I'd have to reread a significant chuck of part one to effectively make the point I want to, and I simply don't have the time to do that just to resolve this one issue.

But again, this changed upon Iruka's acceptance. Why? Because finally, Naruto had a guy who, deep down inside, actually wanted him to live. Iruka, unlike virtually everyone Naruto encountered up to that point, actually wanted Naruto to live and exist. From then on, Naruto's dream changes. Suddenly, he's found somone who actually cares for his livelihood. Suddenly, he has someone to protect. And when Team 7 comes in and does the same, Naruto's dreams grow and change. NOW he's the boy who wants to be Hokage so he can get people to care about him. NOW he's the boy who doesn't want to be alone anymore. He got a taste of life on the other side, and now he'll do anything to keep getting more and not go back to what he was. And now, he's thinking: "If I can get Iruka, my team, and my classmates to care about me, maybe I can get others to care for me, too." Hence, we have the Naruto we see now. But still, what he is now does not and should not change the fact that he apparently used to be a VERY different person about to embark on a VERY different path...
Actually, he could. The village of Konoha apparently felt enough pain for Sarutobi to the point where everyone congregated for a memorial service in the middle of a downpour wearing black mourning clothes. And that's saying something. And there could be more to this; note that Naruto didn't exactly say he felt pain for Sarutobi, just that "death" really was a painful thing. Perhaps Naruto, at that time, finally understood once and for all that being the Hokage didn't make you invincible or immortal? After all, Naruto had always looked upon the Hokages as god-like figures. Perhaps he finally realized that the Hokage was every bit as mortal as himself? Given Naruto's thoughts as to the Hokage position, that would be quite a painful train of thought as well.

At the same time, if they have been beating him the way as suggested and it effected as suggested that his he'd still be more selective than he appears, for example, during the Chuunin exams. They cheer him when he beats Neji, and he loves it. He basks in it. If these people were as bad and as violent as your suggesting would he just instantly accept their apparent acceptance and without any sort of reservation or resentment. Perhaps they stopped before that point, but there isn't anything that offers a reason why they would have suddenly stopped. Iruka had a significant impact on him, but if they were they were bad with the abuse, such open and apparent unconditional acceptance of their acceptance seems odd. Conversely, for people that hated him so much they risked their lives just to inflict some physical abuse that an unlikely victory over Neji would be enough to win them over.

Then again....that part is just conjecture. When it comes down to it, the evidence that they did is not there. While it's not unreasonable to think it might have happen, it seems odd that if it were at all an important piece of who he is that Kishimoto would not even suggest it happened. Thus, I think it just as logical to think it didn't happen.

Personally, I hate it in fanfiction because 95% of the time it's a cheesy plot device used to justify Dark/Evil Naruto and more often than not some form of mass murder, with specific attention to the authors hated characters (usually Sasuke and Sakura). In other words, a way of justifying the author getting revenge on Naruto's behalf. I am not accusing you of doing that. I wouldn't know. I've never read anything you have written. All I am saying is that I generally don't like it as a plot device.

[MagusKyros]

Naruto was scared ****less in his first battle against Zabuza. He then freed Kakashi and Kakashi proceeded to kick his ass in that battle, and the one after that. There was no reason for Naruto to get angry, unless Zabuza killed Kakashi, kinda like how Haku 'killed' Sasuke, and he went Kyuubi all over him, and would've killed him if he hadn't recognized him from the forest.

Naruto also threatened to kill Gaara if he were to harm his precious people at the finale of their battle.

I don't really remember much of Sai's mission. Other then the fact that he had a quick change of heart and wanted to bring him back to Naruto and Sakura.

Also, Naruto may have wanted to gain strength, because apparently, strength equals recognition. The Sannin, Pein, Hanzou, all of them were well recognized for their strength and prowess in battle. This is desire in conjunction with his dream to become Hokage.

[RKRJ]

First off, I'd like to say, hello fellow NaruSaku fans.
Second, I have expressed my hate of fics where Sakura makes Naruto leave the village, and it turns into a naruharem, by writing this short little ficlet. I hope you enjoy.

By reading this you agree that you will not be offended, and if you are you will stfu and leave.

A rly gud story

Author: HAY NARUTO LOL I AM MAKING A LITTLE THING AT THE TOP NO ONE CARES ABOUT
Naruto: rly lol.
ASGJAGJ@23424: IM A FRIEND OF THH AUTHOR OF THE FANFIC OKAY>
Author: sry 4 the delai! i had to go stick some kitten in my *sshole!!111

"F*ckn'demon! Go f*ckn' die!"

"No! Why are you like this! I never did anything to you!"

Another member of the mob stepped up and shouted, "You just die. You killed everyone! YOU!"

"I don't understand!" Uzumaki Naruto cried out, "up until now there has only been a
mild distaste for me! No one has ever beat me or hit me, unless they were mentally
unstable and also tried to kill other people!"

"STFU Naruto-baka, lol," Haruno Sakura said, "You hurt Sasuke-kun!"

"B-but - I'm suffering from chakra exhaustion and I'm missing half of my torso! He
shoved a Chidori through my chest and I gently pushed his face away , which knocked
him out! How was I supposed to know that would have happened?!"

"OMFG. NARUTO-BAKA! I ONLY LUV SASUKE AND NOT U LOL!" Sakura shrieked as she punched
Naruto as hard as she could. All of the aesthetically unappealing villagers with the
intelligence of apes started grunting and beating Naruto.

"FINE! IF THAT'S HOW IT IS I'LL LEAVE!"

Enter Tsunade. "But Naruto, what about your lifelong goal? A stupid b*tch and some
retards start beating you, and your whole personality changes?! And
shouldn't you be dead from blood loss by now?!"

"NO! TAKE YOUR NECKLACE!" Screamed Naruto as he hurled the necklace
of the Shodaime Hokage at Tsunade.

As Naruto hopped the fence of Konoha, which was strangely unguarded, Sakura only
thought one thing. "Oh my god... W-what have I done? I love Naruto-kun so much..."

"I'm such a b*tch," Sakura thought as she started shaking violently,
"Naruto-kun... come back to us in either 2, 2 1/2, 5, 7, or 10 years! I don't even
care if you are a member of Akatsuki or some other random organization of OCs!"

"Lolwut?"

"Foreshadowing."



______________________________________


10 years later.

Naruto Uzumaki, Daiben Kirabiyaka, and Phillip were standing outside the gates of
Konoha.

"It's been a while since I've been here..."

"Why are we here?"

"Lets go to the hokage tower. Maybe everyone will be gathered there for no reason, and I
can show how much I've chang- IT'S RAMEN!"

With that said, Naruto ran to Ichiraku ramen, sat down and said, "Hey old man it's me!"

"Who? Ayame do you have any idea who this is?"

"Nope."

"Oh come on it's me, Naruto! You guys were like a family to me, and would always cheer
me up when every I was raped and maimed by the villagers!!!"

Ayame, the waitress at Ichiraku, said, "Umm... you're that kid that wore orange, right?
None of that ever happened."

Naruto's expression became dark and he said, "If you're not with me... then you're
against me!"



Naruto ran to the hokage tower and burst in, only to find everyone in there for no reason.

"D-dobe! You're back and I love you!"

"N-Naruto! I'm sorry I didn't train you as much as I did this sl*t here," Kakashi said,
pointing to Sasuke, "but that was only because I l-loved you and I-I was scared! Be with
me!"

"N-n-n-n-n-n-a-r-u---"

"Naruto-kun I'm sorry for breaking your heart! I cut myself every day! Promise me that
you'll never leave me again! This is Sakura, by the way!"

"Naruto... ever since you beat me at the chuunin exams and showed me that fate wasn't
everything, I've loved you. Lets-"

"NO! NARUTO-KUN YOU HAVE FLAMES AND! YOUTH! I LOVE YOU!"

"Little gaki," Tsunade started, "I love you the most! You are so amazing lol. Choose me."

"RAWR!" Gaara rawred, "He's mine! I'll kill you all!"

"My name is Tenten."


"ENOUGH! MY NAME IS DAIBEN KIRABIYAKA AND I SAY STOP OR ELSE!"

Everyone's eyes grew wide. Ino stepped up.
"
IT MEANS 'PAY BY PROXY GORGEOUS!' I EVEN GOOGLED THAT SOOOOO...!"

"Even so, my name is Phillip," Phillip declared.

Everyone narrowed their eyes.

"YEAH, YEAH, I know what you're all thinking. My name is Phillip. You're all wondering
why my name isn't japanese. You're also wondering WHAT FANFICTION
AUTHOR would call his characters a common western name, right?"

"Now that we got that out of the way," Naruto exalted wistfully prettily,
"Our organization is called..."


________________________________________________________________________________
_______

"...Akatsuki"

"WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAT!!!!"

"Hey... how come Phillip yelled, and no one else acted surprised?"

"Well Naruto-kun... you ARE wearing Akatsuki cloaks," Sakura chimed in.

"Hrmmm..."

Naruto turned to Sasuke and said, "Hey Sasuke-teme, I'd like to fight you!"

Inside his mind Sasuke was panicking, 'omgomgomg how can I hurt Naruto-kun?
But then again I might get to touch him so I'm in '

"Fine, dobe, lets go to the training grounds."

Naruto took out a special kunai with seals on it. He threw it up in the air and made
an odd hand seal. He caught the kunai and started walking away very slowly.

"Right, let's go."

As they walked through the village everyone in sight, male and female, were looking at
Naruto with longing eyes.

Once they got to the training grounds, Naruto took off his shirt.

'omg i luv hem,' everyone thought.

Sasuke brought out his Mangekyou Sharingan. "Like this new Sharingan dobe?"

Naruto gawked. "Why do you have the Mangekyou? You specifically decided you
never wanted it, and that you were going to find power your own way!"

"Nope."

With that said, both rivals went so fast that no one could see them. Naruto won.

TO BE CONTINUED... oh wait, stories like this have no plot and are given up on.
THE END

[MagusKyros]

You really should make a mockfic out of that RKRJ.

[Rick (Bonta-kun)]

LOL, that was damn amusing RKRJ.

A mockfic that is as good as Legendary Legacy's mockfics. Damn Brilliant.

[Nate River]

Parody or not, please watch the language.

[Chidori Mistress]

Instant Development:
Sasuke realises "ZOMG I LUFFD SAKURA ALL DIS TIME,RITE?"
Naruto suddenly loves Hinata "U NOTICED ME ALL THIS TIME??ORLY??OKTHEN! I LOVE YOU TOO!"

OOC:
Sasuke suddenly turns into this soft hearted guy. Naruto is Emo. Sakura resumes fangirling. Itachi is not heartless.

Bashing:
Absolutely pathetic. Nuff Said.

Yaoi:
Far from my cup of tea.

Mary-Sues:
Worst type of characters ever.

[Vyse]

I don't understand why people write like this

Naruto: "Hello teme"
Sasuke: "Hello dobe.. I see you have grown!"
Naruto: "It's called puberty... it's what we do!"
Sasuke: "I see... yet your skin is perfectly smooth?"
Naruto: "I moisturise!"
Sasuke: "Good call! So, fight to the death?"
Naruto: "Lets!"

It's annoying! Do they actually like reading stories written in that kind of format? And what about the reviews in stories with no plot or horrible grammar? There's always some who goes "Good stry!!11! Plz updat!", which in turn brings yet another chapter of horrible horrible stuff.

[Chidori Mistress]

I don't understand why people write like this

Naruto: "Hello teme"
Sasuke: "Hello dobe.. I see you have grown!"
Naruto: "It's called puberty... it's what we do!"
Sasuke: "I see... yet your skin is perfectly smooth?"
Naruto: "I moisturise!"
Sasuke: "Good call! So, fight to the death?"
Naruto: "Lets!"

It's annoying! Do they actually like reading stories written in that kind of format? And what about the reviews in stories with no plot or horrible grammar? There's always some who goes "Good stry!!11! Plz updat!", which in turn brings yet another chapter of horrible horrible stuff.

LOL!!!!!!!
It's like a play

[Rick (Bonta-kun)]

Instant Development:
Sasuke realises "ZOMG I LUFFD SAKURA ALL DIS TIME,RITE?"
Naruto suddenly loves Hinata "U NOTICED ME ALL THIS TIME??ORLY??OKTHEN! I LOVE YOU TOO!"

OOC:
Sasuke suddenly turns into this soft hearted guy. Naruto is Emo. Sakura resumes fangirling. Itachi is not heartless.

Bashing:
Absolutely pathetic. Nuff Said.

Yaoi:
Far from my cup of tea.

Mary-Sues:
Worst type of characters ever.

I agree with everything here, especially the instant develpment and OOCness you pointed out here, i hate it. Except i kinda disagree with the bashing, its not that i like it, but i dont care if someone does a little Sasuke bashing lol. Although i hate all other types of bashing.

[Jwolf0]

Sadly enough, the script style of fanfic writing was pretty common back in ye olden days (back when Ranma 1/2 was the hot anime to write for). What can I say, us readers were young and didn't know that style was bad.

Pretty sure moisturizer didn't come up that often though.