363 replies to this topic

[Charger76]

I don't think they would ever do a reboot, nor would it be centered around a "Genjutsu".
 
The pairings aren't bad because of who they are paired with, but because the Author chose not to develop much in the way of romance. So if they did do a reboot, I would actually like to see that changed, even if they didn't change the end pairings. This would make them more likeable, you get a rewarding pay-off for the who-will-who-won't sort of element, even though I'm not fond of love-triangles personally. Fan-fics take it more seriously, though not in a rewarding enough way to supplement the original work. There are a few other beefs I have with the original work, but NS not happening is actually not on the list, though it would have been a great/easier choice to work with.
 
That said, I don't think Boruto is doing bad. I think a monthly manga was a bad idea, but the Anime actually helps with its actually decent quality (Naruto fillers were almost always awful in comparison) and its weekly shows.

Yeah if the pairings were more developed I would have no problem with them. Give hinata more screen time, although I'd like her to have more thoughts and time spent not just thinking about Naruto. Like being more independent and develop a little outside that. I'm a big fan of Sakura so I despise SS. I think they had a long way to go with that development, but even if Sakura stood up for herself and made sasuke earn her trust back rather then just Immediately fan girl again, I'd feel better. That would at least still show her strong side. Better closure with NS would have also done leaps and bounds to help, but nah lol all rivalry despite what we saw from naruto throughout the series on love and that fact that every girl loved sasuke.
Also I like the unbiased thought process you seem to bring as it actually brings in reality and not just hopes (although I guess this thread is hopes). I try to do that whenever I can as well. If someone gets too one way or the other you get distracted from the point and both sides of the argument.

When I replied on this thread to start it back up a little bit, I just want to say I have very little hope that anything will happen at all. In all honesty for their company it probably should be that way. They made their decision, rubbed salt in some NS wounds, and lost a lot of that fan base. You can't do that to the NH/SS one otherwise they won't make money. Even if NSers would return with the change (Which despite what a lot of us say, we would return).

I try to follow reason in everything I do. Yet with this for some reason I have a gut feeling I can't shake that is throwing me off. I'm not gonna be too invested in boruto but I'm gonna keep my eye on it, for some reason I have a strange feeling. Honestly I can't explain it either. It would be dumb at this point with it being years ago. Also yeah a reboot most likely wouldn't happen, even if it did it would be years after boruto ended. Boruto being a monthly series extends that time. Idk though, I think we will at least get an explanation once kishi isn't involved at all anymore and is done for good. I recently just rewatched everything and learned what I missed previously so my naruto stuff is still fresh, and I can't shake the thought in my gut. Something is off. Probably just poor writing but 🤷‍♂️. If it doesn't happen it doesn't happen

Edited by Charger76, 05 July 2017 - 10:15 PM.

[Charger76]

 
 
I wouldn't say anything is off, nor is the writing poor. As we saw with the build up to Sumire, if they are clueing in on something, it would be concrete enough to form it into something.
 
Yeah, Hinata said "Naruto-kin", a lot. Too much for my taste. But then looking back, what would she say differently? To make the change work Kishi would have to make things less about Naruto, ironically, throw in some things for the other teams to do. Weirdly, this would also have been corrected by itself if Hinata had higher importance in the story. I think the first would make the story too cluttered, and the second would require a revamp of the entire story. So in an odd way it is best as it was, and it seems a weird Japanese trend to say just "Name..." anyway. An American treatment wouldn't do this, so I would write it off as cultural and leave it be.
 
SS for me suffered in the lack of a "How?" story. Or maybe more of a why? I want to understand Sakura's thinking of it more. Sasuke is a messed up character (A good way in writing, not a good way in someone to pick to be with), so I better want to understand why she endures it. Love is the answer, but I guess I want to see how it works, so I can better grasp it. All in all, this one suffers more than any other pairing from the refusal to write romance. There was a point made that Sasuke got let off easy, but I think that tied more into the theme of forgiveness, and Sasuke already had to show the world he was going to change, a big enough burden as is. I can see an empathetic person offering to travel with and showing forgiveness to ease some of that burden, so Sakura's reaction makes sense to me.
 
I think the most likely scenario for NS is a "What if" sort of work done by the company that suggests or shows a different pairing ending, but nothing official would ever be done, IMO.

I remember a scene, I think when sakura was running to her attempt to kill sasuke and she questions when she fell in love with sasuke. It runs through flashbacks, that would have been a good time to come up with how. Instead they go through the flashbacks and left with more questions than answers. The only words I spoke were "what, that doesn't make sense". Maybe they were still thinking of the NS possibilty at that point and that was gonna be kind of saskura realizing she might not love sasuke as much as she thought. Obviously we know the end pairings so instead it ended up being a scene that was a little confusing. But yeah "how" it happened with more appropriate flashbacks would have helped. Although there were minimal of those moments in general where sasuke is even nice to Sakura. There were at least some comrade like scenes they could throw in.

Also the "what if" I can see them doing it. Although I'd prefer they not just because it would more likely than not just being an opportunity to make fun of the pairing. They can't show alternate reality pairings being happy when their own pairings are having family issues themselves at the moment. Unless it was part of the plot for whatever reason to bring them closer together.

Edited by Charger76, 06 July 2017 - 11:58 AM.

[totherpage95]

but the Anime actually helps with its actually decent quality (Naruto fillers were almost always awful in comparison) and its weekly shows.

I disagree with this I can't see the essential difference between fillers and this spin-off

Edited by totherpage95, 07 July 2017 - 04:58 PM.

[Yojeveka]

You can't?

 

Watch the Boruto anime.

 

Then watch a filler.

 

The Boruto Anime in a few episodes really feels like it's for children too much, but gods, even when the Naruto fillers were for older teens, they were AWFUL. In fact, the worst filler episode of all time was the Chuunin Exams Re-take Arc, with Team 8 fighting some villians. The villians were awful. The plot was awful. And despite Team 8 being decent characters (Not a huge fan of Kiba, though I really like Shino, especially post 699 Shino), the animation quality, the humor, the action, the conflict, the plot, it was cringe worthy.

 

There was another episode in there that easily was close to second worst, and I remember a third where it was a Gaara story that we literally had already seen/understood and had nothing new nor spun it in any interesting fashion. The Rock Lee slap-stick spin off was better than these filler episodes, and that is saying something.

 

Boruto is happily tiers above. But each to their own taste, I feel like comparing Boruto to filler definitely insults its quality work. Naruto was great when it was following the Manga or a novel work, and awful when not, bar a few notable exceptions.

 

Sorry, but which quality work? Everything is recycled, retconned or just random.

 

They are only doing this because they want to milk the cow. Nothing more, nothing less. It doesn't matter if Boruto has quality work or at least some cohesion.  As long as they keep making money, they'll do whatever they want. That's not quality, that's greed.

 

Yeah, Naruto's fillers were lame, but that doesn't make Boruto's rehashed plots any better. 

[James S Cassidy]

Boruto is happily tiers above. But each to their own taste, I feel like comparing Boruto to filler definitely insults its quality work. Naruto was great when it was following the Manga or a novel work, and awful when not, bar a few notable exceptions.

Instead of comparing Boruto to....basically itself (Naruto,) why don't you try comparing it to anime/manga series that actually is written well?

Here is a try....Ruroni Kenshin/Samurai X. If we want to look at the aspect of a shonen...compare it to an older and more refined shonen manga.

Boruto is basically an insult to every well written shonen story ever.




 

Edited by James S Cassidy, 08 July 2017 - 04:59 AM.

[ultranx]

Well, Boruto is Naruto's successor, and sequels are often compared to their originals. So I want to do those comparisons, and assess growth in quality or decay.

 

I've not seen any Retconned elements, "Recycling" is not a trait that is bad, and you will have to elaborate on random. Finally "Milking the cow"... Ugh.

 

This sort of argument is so silly. EVERY successful series is urged to write sequels, because it makes companies money. Milking the Cow is GOOD, especially if such milking continues to create quality milk. If "Milking the cow", as you mean it was bad, we would not be able to see deeper into successful worlds. There's an abundant of pokemon games and movies and anime, are they milking the cow? You're basically saying making money off of something is bad. Heck, if I had a successful series, I would WANT to explore it more, because A: I know I will get paid for it. B: It's fun and exciting to explore new areas of your world, and C: There is a DEMAND from people wanting to watch it. The demand wants quality, they aren't going to accept garbage. You'll see sequels cancel their third planned element when they go terrible in dissatisfying their crowd. Milking the COW is GOOD, and has nothing to do with quality, but successful, safe business approach. Investors want to put most of their money in something that has less risk, not more. This is smart investing. If they were milking the cow and their quality was sinking, investors would pull away. Simple as that.

 

Greed and Quality are not opposites. You can want money and quality, you can make money and give quality. Boruto makes money, and Boruto (Tries) to make good quality work. How successful they are at it can range, but I would vehemently argue that they are successful enough in at least to be a C in quality.  

 

And while "Well-written" is subjective at some point, there are objective elements on what "Well written" is.

 

Is there a plot?

Are the characters more than simple archetypes?

Strong Introduction:

Seamless continuity

Use of chronic and acute tension, is more than one conflict in the air, yet not too many to balance?

Coherent setting

A theme that works

Avoidance of "Writing/Showing nothing".

And a lot more.

 

When a story fails one or more of these things, you'll often see reviewer consensus: Muddled plot, lack of interesting characters. But its the weight each reviewer places on it that determines if its worth seeing or not, the most subjective part of reviewing.

 

All that in mind, Boruto is NOT a great series. There are anime that do wondrous jobs with excellent quality in just about every category in what makes good writing, that will be famous for its brilliance and beauty. Boruto's ability however, to continue to be successful in attracting a large audience is noteworthy.

 

But Boruto does a good job (A GREAT job in some anime episodes, not seeing anything worth classifying as great yet in the manga) with the elements to a well written story. A few times it falls short, and I will criticize those times, but stating that Boruto is an insult to well-written Anime does not do Boruto's good points justice. Partially this is because you did not illustrate what Boruto does poor or well in when it comes to telling a story. It is true that Boruto does not do objectively well in every aspect of story-writing in telling a great story, but Boruto does do great in some aspects, and this must be weighted in.

retcons, lets see, hinata being naruto's first bond instead of iruka? hinata and naruto being childhood friends dealing with bullies when naruto and hinata never even talked til the chunin exams  or dealt  with bullies and hinata always stalked him behind a pole? naruto going after sakura because of his rivalry with sasuke when that makes naruto leaving sakura alone with sasuke in the hospital and walking off in sadness TOTALLY over rivalry and not genuine love?  sakura telling him that like she didn't only go after sasuke over her rivalry with ino and to be popular and not hated? naruto knowing the shadow clone jutsu in the academy when he didn't learn it until he stole the forbidden scroll? naruto being in love with hinata after a genjutsu when he should be immune to genjutsu? sai, yamato, and the others pushing naruto and hinata together when sai  and yamato were the biggest supporters of naruto and sakura getting together?  naruto giving up just because hinata got kidnapped when that's completely out of character for him going by the manga? and that's just retcons in the last. not to mention they made hinata out to be his only true first bond, what happened to the third hokage, iruka, kakashi, sakura, sasuke? all of which were his bonds before hinata?

 

also love how they copied paper mario thousand year door of all things, blasting to the moon from a cannon. and kissing in space?  hello, space, no oxygen, are you freaking kidding me?

 

 

Retroactive continuity/ retcon

(in a film, television series, or other fictional work) a piece of new information that imposes a different interpretation on previously described events, typically used to facilitate a dramatic plot shift or account for an inconsistency.

 

you seem to be very closeminded, sometimes its better when fictional worlds have closure. sometimes continuations or successors can be so bad people don't want it to continue. Love how you mention video games but completely ignore capcom and the dealings of megaman, how when people wanted a new megaman game we got a crappy mobile crossover game that was a recolored megaman x ripoff, when we funded mighty no 9 it screwed with all of us. how bad dragon ball gt was. how lackluster and lazy pokemon sun and moon were story and postgame wise. how bad it was when ash lost against alain in the anime and how they now made an alternate universe movie erasing all of ash's companions and then showing them in the credits to say "screw you" to those fans when its supposed to be a 20th anniversary movie and "thank you to the fans"?

 

congrats, you've proven you'll take anything a company you like makes without criticism, even when its bad. 

Edited by ultranx, 09 July 2017 - 06:02 AM.

[ultranx]

I don't think the scenes of Hinata early on are supposed to imply first bond, but rather say she was one of the first to acknowledge him, which makes sense if you watch the first anime episode, as she is cheering him on. In terms of first mutual bond it is still indisputably Iruka, because she never makes that clear to him until later. What does make sense is her feelings for Naruto that came early on, as well as her acknowledgement.

 

I wouldn't call Hinata and Naruto childhood friends in the normal sense, more like childhood acquaintances. She was too shy, which is why Naruto still found himself lonely.

 

We can all agree the Shadow Jutsu was a mistake on their part. It's not a retcon though, more an error in word use, as they clearly showed it to be like the clones he did in the academy.

The Genjutsu didn't make Naruto fall in love, it helped explain things to him he wasn't understanding prior. Could it have been done without it? Probably, but this was a useful device with the element of time constraint. If you want to blame someone, blame Kishimoto for not doing more romance so this device wouldn't have had to be used to explain things to Naruto, rather than Naruto understanding. You can also blame Kishimoto for the two year timeskip.

 

Yes, breathing in space was not explained. You could infer how it happened, but to be honest, they chose not to explain it, which you can rag them on about it if you like, but I personally find is something that they gambled would be suspended with disbelief. It's pointed at comically by viewers, but I personally wouldn't chalk many points off for it.

 

I actually believe Sakura's infatuation was partially genuine, but also partially enhanced by what you are implying.

 

As you define above, none of these are accounting for inconsistencies or are being a dramatic plot shift. That's why your Shadow Clone example most specifically isn't a retcon, it's an error in terminology.

 

Sai was not pushing for anyone to be together in the movie. The only one who gave advised the couple was Sakura, and that really mostly to Hinata.

 

Finally, saved this one for last: Naruto giving up because Hinata got kidnapped.

 

This is SO common in the Hero's journey, if not a physical defeat, an emotional one. The hero is down, and someone needs to help him get back up. Naruto is pinned down by pain, he needs help. Naruto is in trouble in the Zabuza arc, Sasuke goes to save him. Naruto is demoralized by Obito killing many and Neji with the pins of wood. He looks like he is about to give up. I like the Pain example the best here, because Naruto is being challenged in his beliefs, and is unable to give an example of peace verbally against pain's challenge.

 

Naruto is mortal, and if he shrugged things off everytime and got up from all of them without some degree of struggle ,he wouldn't be relatable. Every hero falls into some sort of despair. How they get out of it and remind themselves they need to be a hero (Not give up) varies. In the Last, it is Shikimaru/Sakura that achieve this with moralizing words, which is a pretty common technique.

 

This doesn't make me closeminded. I will criticize and say they should have shown how they were able to breathe in space, given Toneri more backstory on his reason for his kidnapping choices, the vague beginning was fine but it was never really established much further within the film.

 

See, I can -criticize-, but I can -praise- what's good and defend against arguments that point out flaws that aren't there or aren't suitable enough to mark a film bad. I can also avoid talking unprofessionally to my peers.

 

"Congrats, you've proven you'll take anything a company you like makes without criticism, even when its bad." 

 

I think I've proven I can ship NS and still talk about Naruto's good and bad faults with a fairer mind than most even on the Pro side, who give it too much praise. They would say Hinata was the first bond/friendship, but as I said above, I highly disagree, and say it was merely one of the first acknowledgements.

OH really hmm? Simon the digger says hello, who never gave up and has the power to destroy the universe. goku too, who never gave up and only quit fighting cell because he believed in gohan. luffy never gave up. yusuke never gave up. inuyasha never gave up, literally every shonen hero never gave up, only naruto did. kirito never gave up, kenichi never gave up, sora never gave up, geo stellar from megaman never gave up, lan hikari  and hub/megaman.exe never gave up, therefore your argument makes no sense. also love how above  in earlier posts you used american series as an excuse when this is a japanese series. please, like naruto is even relatable anymore when now he's a reincarnation of a son of the sage of six paths and bound by destiny and is no longer the true underdog we liked and was relatable about him, therefore NEJI WAS RIGHT. also error in terminology? pfft, normal clones in the academy are illusions and not in physical form genius, that's a trait unique to shadow clones, and shadow clones are only taught from the forbidden scroll, great job on proving to me you never read the manga and are a anime only fan that thinks they know better than me.

 

lets see what else did you post yes, naruto was guilttripped into loving hinata using the genjutsu. also right, sakura's feelings for sasuke are totally genuine and not an obsessive fancrush she thinks is love, she must totally know everything about sasuke after the ending and not not know what he looks like to tell her daughter, not be avoided by sasuke like the plague and sasuke afraid to kiss her. naruto and hinata weren't even "childhood acquaintances", they never talked til the chunin exams, that entire part is anime only, naruto never talked to her and thought she was a weirdo, he even stated this in the chapter she first appeared in the chunin exams.  she literally didn't debut til the chunin exams in the manga, sakura was introduced and created long before her. hinata always fainted around him whenever he tried. and sakura even as far as chapter 3 when she was debuted was stated by naruto to be the girl he liked. still don't see how it was about the rivalry. also no, he was not demoralized, he was in a state of shock, there's a freaking difference. not once did he think of giving up whatsoever. nor did he give up against zabuza or haku, being in trouble or being in a state of shock doesn't equal being demoralized. also no, hinata was also not the first to acknowledge him, iruka was. all this stuff about hinata being in his class and yadda yadda is all anime only. AGAIN, SHE WAS NOT INTRODUCED UNTIL THE CHUNIN EXAMS, SHE WAS NOT SHOWN PRIOR TO THAT, NOT EVEN WHEN THE TEAMS WERE FORMED, THE OTHER TEAMS WEREN'T INTRODUCED TIL THE CHUNIN EXAMS. seriously what part of that is hard for you to grasp?  all you're doing is proving to me more and more you were an anime only fan and never looked back and read the manga from the beginning.

 

also, if naruto only cares about sakura over the rivalry, tell me then, WHY DID HE BATTLE GAARA SO FIERCELY TO SAVE HER, EVEN CRAWLING LIKE A SNAKE IN THE GROUND TOWARD GAARA WHEN HE WAS TOO BADLY HURT TO FIGHT ANYMORE AND IT TOOK SASUKE TELLING HIM SAKURA WAS SAFE TO GET HIM TO STOP HMM? YOU'RE TELLING ME HE'D GO THAT FAR FOR SAKURA AND DOESN'T EVEN LOVE HER AND THAT IT WAS ALL OVER A STUPID RIVALRY? WHAT ABOUT THE FOREHEAD SCENE, WHY WOULD NARUTO HENGE AS SASUKE AND ASK WHAT SAKURA THOUGHT ABOUT HIM IF HE ONLY CARED ABOUT HER OVER THE RIVALRY, WOULDN'T HE DETEST HENGING INTO SASUKE? OR DO YOU THINK THAT WAS THE REAL SASUKE EVEN THOUGH IT WAS BLATANTLY OBVIOUS IT WAS NARUTO, HE EVEN RAN OFF TO THE BATHROOM OVER THE SOUR MILK.

 

AND ARE YOU SO UNCARING ABOUT SAKURA AND HER FEELINGS THAT YOU THINK ITS OKAY NARUTO WOULD GO AFTER HER OVER A RIVALRY DISREGARDING HER FEELINGS? CAN YOU SERIOUSLY NOT UNDERSTAND HOW SCUMMY THAT MAKES NARUTO?

 

sigh I'm dropping this conversion before I get any more enraged by your posts, I'm gone.

Edited by ultranx, 09 July 2017 - 03:29 PM.

[ThroughWithLove]

 I personally don't think 12 year old Naruto was in love with Sakura, intense feelings I will agree with, be they friendship, crush or close to more. Now older Naruto however, is definitely up for debate. Kishimoto says no, but I will argue in some fashion, there was love, just perhaps Sakura loved Sasuke more, and Naruto was just too occupied to make anything out of it, and by the time there would have been, it had faded.

 

 I think that bench scene makes it pretty clear that Naruto's feelings for Sakura aren't just a simple unexplainable crush. When he thinks "I think I finally understand why I like Sakura-chan so much", you get a sense of clarity that there's something solid there. 

[rocci]

@analyzer
The first episode that show Hinata is filler, that episode is based on the first chapter of the manga. Hinata is not in the manga up until chunin exam arc.

Naruto truly love sakura. The same could be said with the other 12 years old character, be it sakura, Hinata, ino, and even lee. The different is that only two of them are main characters.

The highest point of naruto love sakura is near the end of part 1 aka poal and the hospital scene.

[ThroughWithLove]

Also . . .

 

I haven't watched much of DBZ, or read some of those other mangas to get what you mean. But it's very normal for the hero in stories to get defeated and get down in some manner, especially towards the middle of the plot-line, and in the Shonens I have read/watched I can say this holds out in them as well. Further, I don't see how this is a fault to point at all, it's typical plot development in writing. If this was re-written to have Naruto not get down from anything, I would chalk up a lot of points off from the character.

 

 

Having the hero get defeated and "get down in some manner" is fine and dandy. It's how this happens which can prove to be a problem. For example, if in a Superman film, Superman were to have a brief moral crisis due to Lex Luthor stealing all of the bags of marijuana Superman had been secretly been hoarding in the foretress of solittude, Superman "feeling down" wouldn't be justifiable on the basis heroes regularly "feel down" at some point in the story. In the Last movie, Naruto's reason for wallowing in remorse feels every bit as forced and nonsensical. Naruto's morale wouldn't falter in the slightest there and he'd be determined to bring Hinata back even if meant knocking some sense into her (from his point of view anyway).

[Yyubie]

@ultranx

Before you talk about the story or things that happening in the last , i think we should start from the basic logic , the law of physic. How the F can they go to the moon and breathe in space ??

[ThroughWithLove]

 

I disagree with this one.

 

Your example is hard to work with because it's weak and doesn't tell me why Superman is down. It's lacking the chronic connection to make it work. Lex Luthor took Superman's powers and now he can't do anything to stop Lex from destroying the world would be better. Now Superman is a mortal, defeated, and is facing the very uphill battle of trying to act without powers.

 

Why he is down is pretty straightforward. Lex took all of his weed that he's apparently been hiding and Superman really loves his weed stash. It doesn't work not because there's no chronic connection, but because it's contrived and completely alien to the character. Nonetheless, if a writer has a point A and point B in mind and determined for those two points to be met no matter what the costs, contrivances and bad characterization are of no concern. For example . . .

 

This is how it woks well in the Last. Naruto was heartbroken. His Chakra took days to recover and he lost the person he loved.

When taking into account the fact that this is the same character who relentlessly pursued a guy he (A) thought of as a brother, (B) knew he was the object of his hatred and ( C) was determined to destroy everything he loved . . . and pursued said guy for nearly 500 chapters of a 700 manga, wallowing in remorse over Hinata is just not something this same character would be inclined to do regardless of what he felt for her. Here, we see an all too common case of writers dead set on having a particular scene in their story prior to actually writing the story and being determined to implement said scene regardless of what narrative sense it makes.

 

It'd be like someone dying. I can -completely- understand that, can relate to that

So can I, but it's not a matter of how you or I can relate, but how a scene fits in the overall narrative. The movie didn't show us anything that would cause Naruto to react any differently than he has with a character he has been shown with a much closer (not to mention obsessive and even suicidal) bond to, thus I find your conclusion about Hinata being the "chronic tension" to be unpersuasive. If they really wanted to go the angle of Naruto wallowing in remorse, it should've involved tugging at an aspect of his character that would actually trigger these feelings. Perhaps guilt (i.e. effectively ignoring Hinata for so long). Granted, the writers were pretty determined to destroy all notions of Hinata being a pity-decision, so who knows.

 

 

 

As for the bench scene, you get something solid for the crush and a basis for it to move for something more, I agree. But the rest of the bench scene isn't the best example, as he was trying to steal a kiss through deception, which is definitely not very romantic.

By the same token, stalking someone behind a tree is definitely not very romantic. Having and acting upon childish quirks does not dispute the legitimacy of one's feelings. 

Edited by ThroughWithLove, 10 July 2017 - 06:24 AM.

[ultranx]

@ultranx

Before you talk about the story or things that happening in the last , i think we should start from the basic logic , the law of physic. How the F can they go to the moon and breathe in space ??

like I said, they literally ripped that from paper mario the thousand year door, near the end of the game you use a cannon and blast paper mario to the moon, and he's walking on the moon without oxygen all willy nilly. all to save princess peach. sound familiar? xD they used a non plot based kids game to come up with this crap xD this is literally a badly done disney movie done by a bad writer xD naruto officially got so bad they resorted to the

"mario save the princess" type of storytelling xD they're using marioxpeach stuff to justify nh xD

Edited by ultranx, 10 July 2017 - 08:43 AM.

[Gravenimage]

 

Sorry, but which quality work? Everything is recycled, retconned or just random.

 

They are only doing this because they want to milk the cow. Nothing more, nothing less. It doesn't matter if Boruto has quality work or at least some cohesion.  As long as they keep making money, they'll do whatever they want. That's not quality, that's greed.

 

Yeah, Naruto's fillers were lame, but that doesn't make Boruto's rehashed plots any better. 

 

True story.

[James S Cassidy]

Analyzer....there is really nothing you can say to change our viewpoints. Not because we are stupid or single minded, but because we have actually read every interview by Kishimoto and read the entire story and we see that Kishimoto either really had no creative control over Naruto....or just followed whatever advice he was given for the sake of "profits" by the studio.

The fact that Naruto the Last had to retcon several scenes and force development into something that never existed in the first place is proof of it and every day more and more fans are starting to wake up to the truth. NH was a retcon pairing because that is what the SP and some of the staff of Kishimoto's own studio wanted. If you think that they cannot influences him or force him to do anything...well, you are wrong. I am sorry, but there are many of times where the studio forces stuff on directors and writers. Look at what happened with Sam Raimi and Spider-Man 3.

The fact that Naruto the Last shoe horns in "scenes" that don;t exist anywhere in the series AND the entire thing goes against three OFFICIAL databooks is absolutely ridiculous. This is the same dude that said he made Madara so powerful he didn;t know how to beat him.

And come on, when you have Junko herself and even Kishimoto's own wife, several other mangaka, and Shonen Jump themselves question the ending to Naruto and hate it...you have to wonder what is really going on.


It is all, but outright confirmed that NH was forced to "make the NH fans happy."

People try to low down this "logic" on to us, but it is just fancy word play and slight of hand. Magicians do this all the time...no doubt people can do it too with word play, but that doesn't mean you are correct.

Look up the Kishimoto NYCC 2016 interview and you can see the truth right there. No, I am not gonna pull it up because you are smart enough to find it yourself.

Another question you have to ask is, if there is nothing to hide and it was all legit, then why do they actively censor some questions that fans really want to ask Kishimoto.

Edited by James S Cassidy, 10 July 2017 - 04:15 PM.

[rocci]

Nh is the least problematic pairing because Hinata is irrelevant to the story thus kishi doesn't bother to write about her thus limiting any development in the manga and it allowing nh to look good because kishi horrible writing doesn't touch it.

And then Hinata popularity make her capable to nh become canon.

Oh and romance in naruto is sakura.
And romance is simple.

[Yyubie]

@James

You forgot about the "NO REFUND" policy and the fake 5 stars comment on yahoo jp.

Edited by Yyubie, 11 July 2017 - 05:05 AM.

[Charger76]

I think popularity does play a bit of a factor although most like to stick to their own story, as they should. Their own story got them to that point.

Me personally I believe when he said he though NH at the beginning, but I do believe he thiugh NS for a while from the ending of part one to the middle/late middle of part two. Not sure what made him change back or choose one side or the other, but I do think he would have had more NH interactions and have hinata be more of a factor if he was so set in stone.

Also I wonder if he realizes that the main reason Sakura was hated was because of her confusing "love" of sasuke and occasional disrespecting treatment of naruto (bench scene about parents, the misinterpretted fake confession, and war arc with her her trying to get sasuke attention and him in turn disrespectecting her). I think if he would have ended NS sakura would have gotten more respect. Her popularity went in waves. I liked her up until the ending with occasional things that made me cringe, but that happens with all characters. I actually do think more people like her than Kishi thought.

Then again it is always the more radical leaning people that get other's attention

[Charger76]

Also guys naruto did have a happy ending so stop it........for hinata and sasuke. I still can't believe they let and still let sasuke do whatever he wants with free pardon

Technically though he did write the characters to all have a happy ending, which he stated was one of his goals. To make the most characters happy. Although he definitely stretched the story a bit to get sasuke and hinata's "happiness"

Edited by Charger76, 11 July 2017 - 05:45 PM.

[ThroughWithLove]

@ThroughWithLove, But it does work with the scene. The thing is Sasuke != Hinata, the Variables are not the same as before, and therefore one cannot say: A = B when A has a different weight than B. 

 

When you're writing a story, simply having a different character interact with the protagonist is not enough reason to have the protagonist demonstrate characteristics he's never mustered in the source material. For example, with Clark Kent, we know that he has a loving, tender and somewhat henpecked relationship with Lois Lane. Were he to acquire a new love interest by the name of Bois Bane and he were to randomly start cursing her out and treating her like a dog, simply saying "Well she's not Lois Lane, so it's different" wouldn't be sufficient grounds to justify this sudden change in character. 

 

In Naruto's case, there would need to be sufficient buildup and character development to properly transition him to reacting the way he did when Hinata was taken away in the film. We didn't get that. Instead, it felt like a scene the writers shoehorned into the film.

 

 

Further, it is imperative in the Hero's Journey that the hero is down. I don't care if a writer puts forth a hero that never gives up, that hero better at least have doubts, maybe even actually figuratively give up for a while, even if they merely last a couple of hours and he is back to his determined self.

 

 

 

All that is fine (even if I don't necessarily agree with the practice of adhering to the genre for the sake of adhering to the genre). My problem was that the scene was out of character. I've already provided a means in which Naruto would still be adhering to the 'hero's journey' without having to set aside his actual characteristics. Rather than wanting to give up and thinking he was betrayed, the writers could have instead made the "feeling down" scene tie around Naruto's guilt. Such a scene would address concerns about "needing to have doubts" and could have been used to make Naruto's journey all the more complete as he saves the day and gets the girl at the end. 

 

In this scene, Naruto was just taken down by Toneri effortlessly, Hinata had rejected him to seemingly marry someone else, betraying him right after he confessed. I would be shocked and a bit miffed if he wasn't down like he was, and wonder if he was emotionless.

 

 

If you would be shocked and miffed, you'd need to go back and reread a majority of the manga (starting with the Sasuke retrieval arc). It'd take a hell of a lot more than rejection and seeming betrayal to make Naruto react the way he did. This is the same series where the dude was OBSESSED with saving a dude who OPENLY and FLAT OUT did not want to be saved to the point of PARODY. It would take a hell of a lot more than what we saw in the film to make him even consider questioning his resolve. When you have a protagonist like that, simply saying "But Hinata!" and "But romance" isn't enough.

 

The entire scene here is a metaphor for the after-effects of rejection. It HAS to be like this, or else everything that came before is cheapened.

 

I'm a big fan of metaphors. Problem is that the writers wanted to use a metaphor as well as tell a story that just doesn't fit the characters, much less the source material they've been given free reign to write about. So no, it didn't HAVE to be like that. Rather, if they wanted to tell that kind of the story, they should've made their own characters in their own story or opted to go write for some Shoujo manga. That's my two cents anyway.

Edited by ThroughWithLove, 11 July 2017 - 08:09 PM.