4869 replies to this topic

[Strangelove]

Let's just wait for the Manga...

[Cupcake-chan]

@ Soupy
Thanks for defending me.

@SS3 Goku
Sorry, I can't quite understand what you're saying... I'm sorry if you think that I was being... less of a NS-er. That wasn't really my intention. But you do need to understand that this is a debate thread and that all opinions count. So... you shouldn't disrespect the person if you don't agree with what he/she is saying.

No, I don't think Miss Soupy is ignoring that, she may not interpret Sakura to be as deeply in love with Naruto as I do, but she does agree at least that Sakura does care deeply for Naruto and her motive was to protect Naruto. Cupcake chan is the only one I've seen doubt that seriously in the past few pages. So yeah I have some questions about Cupcake chan's reading of Sakura's character when the manga and Kishimoto himself refuted those rabid naruhina talking points. Why continue to misread something when the author himself says it's a misreading.

One only has to look at Naruto's reaction in 474 to see how close Sakura was on how Naruto would react, he rages, hyperventilates, frozen within himself in shock and then passes out.

It's not that I doubt Sakura's feelings towards Naruto. In the latest chapters there has been proof, I completely agree. What is bothering me is Sakura's all-of-a-sudden confession. It just didn't seem right. It seems thats she's only making more mistakes, even though she vowed she wouldn't make them anymore.
I also have to agree with Soupy that Sakura still hasn't made up her mind to whom she loves the most. From what I've been reading, Sakura cares about both of them to do the things she has decided to do: kill Sasuke and take the wight, of the burden, off Naruto's shoulders.
I'm worried about the confession, not exactly confused. The question, now is, will Naruto forgive Sakura form using his feeling and attempting to kill Sasuke on her own. Will he be mad?

[Miss Soupy]

I'm worried about the confession, not exactly confused. The question, now is, will Naruto forgive Sakura form using his feeling and attempting to kill Sasuke on her own. Will he be mad?

No problem XD Like you said, everyone's opinion is welcome here.

I think, knowing Naruto, he will definitely forgive Sakura. Sai wasn't painting Sakura in a horrible light when he explained things to Naruto. It was an outcome Naruto never expected from Sakura, really, because who would think of killing a friend out of love? It's quite heartbreaking to think of doing it, and Naruto is an optimist. Now he has been forced to face reality. He won't accept that method, but he will understand Sakura's decision.

I really hope Naruto goes with Kakashi after Sakura (if he gets a chance).

[Evil Potato]

Funny thing about the confession is, I don't think I can see any other way for the manga to progress well if she didn't confess. When I think about reactions and manga progression, her confession seems like the right choice, instead of an argument between all of them ending with Naruto passing out and Sakura staying to help him instead of finding Sasuke.

Hmm... as for the in love part, I concur with the interpretation that Sakura is in love with Naruto, of course I can see Kishi is keeping that kinda vague and not too obvious.

As for Naruto getting too much down time and having more battles in his head than on the field, this I don't like so much. I'm very lenient when it comes to things like this, but I just wanna see the main character get out there and fight some more. Hes had like 4 fights in the past 6 years, and I'm not including the ones where he lost conscientiousness to the kyuubi.

Anyways, NS progression may be going slow, but it has picked up this past year and we got all the way to Sakura confessing. Looking at it from this view point, I see a little drama, and some issues, and then NS = cannon. Of course it may take awhile, or it may not, Kishi is good at surprising us.

[pinkheartsyellowstars]

Back to the confession issue, an anti NS had once said to me,

"So basically the claim is that Sakura realized a love for Naruto so incredible that she couldn't wait a few extra days to tell him, and did so while it was explained to her how much she'd hurt Naruto, and how Sasuke needed to die, and did it while processing that information. A deep abiding sense of guilt is far more believable in those circumstances than a deep abiding sense of love".

.... So i guess, Sakura for being conveying a confession, which resulted to be premature, makes the conclusion to guilt. Which in turns out, guilt and lies are more believable.
But I had somewhat "confuse" issue. When she said, she will not do anymore mistakes, her only concern is to lift the burden for the poal, with any means either she would lie or likewise, not thinking that Naruto would hate for hiding the decision.
I really thought, when she said " she will not do anymore mistakes", means she will not be blind anymore, in all things, She will face the facts, Sasuke is a criminal etc.

Edited by pinkheartsyellowstars, 04 January 2010 - 03:34 AM.

[tricksie]

So I posted a while back about body language in the manga - how Kishi & co. were choosing to illustrate the panels and how Naruto and Sakura always are shown with such closeness, more than any other couple.

Ciardha, you pointed out that the only close body language you had found was between Tsunade and Dan, Kushina and Minato, somewhat between Tsunade and Jiraiya, etc. And that these were all established love relationships - I totally agree!

Sakura's face-to-face confession where Naruto feels comfortable enough to spend half the time with his hands on her shoulders is definitely following in line with the closeness shown with other known love pairs in the manga. Any other ship is just not graphically presented. (Sorry, I'm too tired to go back through and find your response, but I wanted to get back to you about it!)

So, I was just rereading the chapter when Sakura hugs him on the battlefield and thought it was interesting to note the difference in the panels showing NS and the panel with Hinata looking on. Naruto and Sakura hugging obviously fills up the panel, again giving the reader a really intimate view of their feelings. The panel with Hinata observing and smiling shows her in front of her clansmen. She is shown as reacting from a place within her clan. Look back a panel and you see Neji observing beside TenTen and Gai, his teammates. He's a Hyuuga too, but his place is not to lead the clan (as Hinata's is).

I just think these little graphic placements can't be overlooked. Someone made the decision to draw Hinata in a frame separated from her teammates, ensconced among her family, immediately after declaring her love for the hero. No, I don't think her little placid expression means that the she's accepted narusaku - meaning that I think there will be sometime in the future when her confession will be addressed (flashback or whatever). But I do think we are meant to see her as someone who has important family obligations, obligations that will take the front seat in her life.

And if you think about Hinata's placement in that panel as being first for her family, then it makes Sakura's hug, her tender expression with a hand clutching his hair, that much more poignant. She's going to him first, not family, nor other rookies, nor injured sensei. You see them together, filling up the panel with nary a bit of background. (You see the same stuff in Sakura's confession scene - tightly drawn with little background.)

Anyway, one panel does not a plot make. But I think there are very clear messages in the way this is drawn that transcend translation.

NS FTW!

[ciardha]

Hmm... as for the in love part, I concur with the interpretation that Sakura is in love with Naruto, of course I can see Kishi is keeping that kinda vague and not too obvious.

Doesn't look vague at all to me. Sakura said she is, firmly emphasized that, Sai restates it- Sakura has moved on from Sasuke and is now in love with Naruto. Kishimoto says in the Jump Festa 2009 interview that he wrote Sakura in that scene as "A HONEST and surprisingly determined girl" Case closed folks, Sakura is in love with Naruto and has moved on from Sasuke.

Arguing otherwise just looks foolish when Kishimoto himself has told you it's true Sakura has moved on from Sasuke and now is in love with Naruto. What she feels for Sasuke is remnants of the feelings she had for the Sasuke she pictured in her mind back when they were in Team 7 and that she know he never will be again or even have any desire to be again. The majority of her feelings though is the team mate bond which is also a kind of love, and something that is much stronger than a naive girlish love that even Sakura knew when she confessed to Sasuke would never be returned.

Again as the parallel, I point out the bond the Sanin had to each other even after Orochimaru turned irredeemably evil and twisted. Hiruzen sensed Orochimaru still had remnants of that bond when they fought, and he certainly still had that bond to Tsunade. That bond still existed in Tsunade and Jiraiya's hearts too, even after years of distancing themselves from him and accepting Orochimaru was irredeemably evil they still felt a mourning sadness when he was killed.

Naruto and Sakura had a much closer bond to Sasuke, and his descent into darkness had only started when he left, they are having to face something far more painful than Tsunade and Jiraiya did, and in a far shorter amount of time. Sakura has processed it as much as she can and has chosen to act. Naruto is still frozen and not able to process it. (sort of paralleling Jiraiya again, Jiraiya chased after Orochimaru for a while, in denial about how dark and twisted a man Orochimaru had become. Tsunade saw what kind of man Orochimaru was long before. Tsunade was also the one who first acted to kill Orochimaru and thought she had put Jiraiya and Shizune away from the scene so she could deal with taking down Orochimaru on her own and they'd be safe.

Edited by ciardha, 04 January 2010 - 05:22 AM.

[fireandice]

Hi all, glad to be here to debate

@pinkheartsyellow

In my opinion, I think the thing about Sakura's confession being too sudden and all that and being intertwined with the whole issue of Sasuke has resulted in fans reading it as Sakura manipulating Naruto and lying to him.

I think what's true is that Sakura had all along been slowly developing more-than platonic feelings for Naruto (e.g Naruto 4-tails incident), and at the same time, she has lingering feelings for Sasuke. But the thing about Sakura's feelings for Naruto is that it's a more subtle kind of love, the kind that slowly grows, hence she wasn't consciously aware that she loved him romantically.

What I think happened was that Sai's words opened her eyes, pointed out to her bluntly that Naruto loved her, and he was getting himself hurt for her sake, and she probably realized that all along she has grown to love him. She realized that one reason Naruto was destroying himself over Sasuke was because he loved her, and was adamant to hold up the POAL.

That's the reason she decided confessing was the key to it all, because she thought that was the only way she could persuade him not to chase after Sasuke- she rightly guessed he would never agree to the Rookie's real plan. Had the situation with Sasuke not gone out of control, I'm sure Sakura wouldn't have gone all the way there nor confessed immediately.

And her "no more mistakes" I took it to be that she realized that she's already lost one of her precious people (Sasuke, whom Shikamaru showed to be far beyond redemption) and that she cannot lost another one- Naruto, over this.

If we look at her confession alone, IMO, it is incredibly honest. She says how she's seen Naruto, who's always been by her side change from her impression of just a loud annoying kid to a friend who was always there to encourage her, and how he's a hero. (I've no idea why this was misconstrued by people on other forums to be 'I can't have Sasuke so I'll have you instead, it's not like she had not shown any indications of possibly falling for Naruto.)

[Gravenimage]

Doesn't look vague at all to me. Sakura said she is, firmly emphasized that, Sai restates it- Sakura has moved on from Sasuke and is now in love with Naruto. Kishimoto says in the Jump Festa 2009 interview that he wrote Sakura in that scene as "A HONEST and surprisingly determined girl" Case closed folks, Sakura is in love with Naruto and has moved on from Sasuke.

Arguing otherwise just looks foolish when Kishimoto himself has told you it's true Sakura has moved on from Sasuke and now is in love with Naruto. What she feels for Sasuke is remnants of the feelings she had for the Sasuke she pictured in her mind back when they were in Team 7 and that she know he never will be again or even have any desire to be again. The majority of her feelings though is the team mate bond which is also a kind of love, and something that is much stronger than a naive girlish love that even Sakura knew when she confessed to Sasuke would never be returned.

Again as the parallel, I point out the bond the Sanin had to each other even after Orochimaru turned irredeemably evil and twisted. Hiruzen sensed Orochimaru still had remnants of that bond when they fought, and he certainly still had that bond to Tsunade. That bond still existed in Tsunade and Jiraiya's hearts too, even after years of distancing themselves from him and accepting Orochimaru was irredeemably evil they still felt a mourning sadness when he was killed.

Naruto and Sakura had a much closer bond to Sasuke, and his descent into darkness had only started when he left, they are having to face something far more painful than Tsunade and Jiraiya did, and in a far shorter amount of time. Sakura has processed it as much as she can and has chosen to act. Naruto is still frozen and not able to process it. (sort of paralleling Jiraiya again, Jiraiya chased after Orochimaru for a while, in denial about how dark and twisted a man Orochimaru had become. Tsunade saw what kind of man Orochimaru was long before. Tsunade was also the one who first acted to kill Orochimaru and thought she had put Jiraiya and Shizune away from the scene so she could deal with taking down Orochimaru on her own and they'd be safe.

Well not to disagree with you but are you sure Kishi said that in the interview about the part of Sakura in her confession being" honest and and determined girl"? Because in the interview I don't recall him saying that he said that" Naruto is close but Sakura....to Sasuke" he never said that she still loves him though leaving it hanging in the air. But I do know that Sakura was telling the truth in her confession I just want to be clear about that part of interview. Either you had the real interview (without being tampered with by crazy N/H and S/S fans) or did you find it somewhere else?

Edited by Gravenimage, 04 January 2010 - 12:05 PM.

[primary colours123]

hello everyone and happy new year. i'm new here and this is my first post.
i saw some of your posts. i've been lurking around here for some time now, 'cause it really boosts my narusaku feelings by reading your posts whenever i'm down. you gus really debate well.
anyways, i've seen that some of you still are having second thoughts about the suddenness and truth of sakura's confessions, mainly due to the odd timing.
i say, that one has to only see the panel of sakura and yamoto with the famous line "i can tell just by looking at you that you l", and realize that sakura in undoubtedly in love with naruto. she looked like a child caught with her hands in the cookie jar. definitly not platonic or sibling love.
as for the timing.. yes that does appear sudden. but you have to take into account all that has happened prior to this. i figure sakura had known her love for naruto for a long time, but was refusing to act on them due to two reasons
a)her lingering and confusing feelings for sasuke, and
b)her doubts about naruto's feelings for her.
she was genuinly surprised when sai said that naruto loved her. well, naruto had really never given her a reason to belive that he cared for her more than a really close friend. not only did he not pursue her romantically, whenever she made any concerned comment about him, he tried to change the topic.
then she learns that naruto has been in love with her and suffering because of that. even that did not spur her to confess. i feel she confessed because she honestly believed that this might be her last chance.
yamato and sai say that she was sure before confessing that naruto would not be swayed away form his pursual of sasuke. still she confessed. why?
because, naruto should take this notion out of his head that sakura's happiness was intertwined with sasuke's retrieval, and in case she does not return from sasuke's retreival herself, she should not have any regrets.
from the beggining she knew naruto would refuse. yet she would leave with the knowledge that she told him, whatever happens next.
her confession sounded awkward, because i think she never expected that she will have to justify her love. i know that telling someone why you love them is hard, and even harder is trying to justify by your words that you really love them. so she tried to give the tangible reasons which naruto could not deny, which in the process made her appear shallow.
for naruto being angry with her, i think once naruto rationally thinks and realises everything, there will be no reason for him to be angry. i don't think someone being ready to sacrifice her life, love and happeinss for him, is something to be angry about.
as for hiding things, sakura's reasons for hiding are partially justified, and naruto himself is hiding vital nformation from sakura, which might actually prove to be a disadvantage while facing sasuke.
i don't know whether i made any sense cause i just went with the flow, but i do hope so.
do take care everyone.

[X105]

@ciardha
I see you used the quote in the interview "an honest and surprisingly determined girl", but you left out what was before that statement which is critical to the meaning. "She used naruto's love for her and told him she loved him. On the contrary, I felt like depicting an honest girl, with a surprisingly stubborn impression." Without the subordinate clause we lose the meaning in the main clause, we lose the meaning. Personally, I disregard the interviews because they exist to only stir the pot.

To say Sakura did not lie in chapter 469 during her confession is a fallacy. I am not saying she lied about her feelings for Naruto, but I think we can all agree that saying she did not care about Sasuke anymore was a lie. Sai confirmed it later by stating that she was going to kill Sasuke out of her love for Sasuke. I am not ignoring the fact that she is also protecting Naruto, but I also understand Sakura's actions are for Sasuke as well. I think Sakura is still loves Sasuke as Sai states in chapter 474, but she has feelings for Naruto. Sakura's feelings for Sasuke were too important in Sakura's character to just forget them and move on without final closure, and the bench scene will finally provide the closure as Kishimoto intended to use that scene in Sakura's development.

However, Naruto's end is a little more difficult for me to predict. I know in the end the manga ends with NS, but I have no idea how he will finalize things with Naruto. If Kishimoto wants to keep the drama, he could easily draw the final closure of NS by finally allowing the akatsuki to capture Naruto.

In the end, I still think Kishimoto did a pretty good job with the protagonist hooks up with female lead. He did a good job of taking a common romantic plot line and adding to some decent drama to form a great pairing.

Edited by X105, 04 January 2010 - 10:05 AM.

[pinkheartsyellowstars]

@Fire
I completely AGREE!

[ciardha]

@ciardha
I see you used the quote in the interview "an honest and surprisingly determined girl", but you left out what was before that statement which is critical to the meaning. "She used naruto's love for her and told him she loved him. On the contrary, I felt like depicting an honest girl, with a surprisingly stubborn impression." Without the subordinate clause we lose the meaning in the main clause, we lose the meaning. Personally, I disregard the interviews because they exist to only stir the pot.

I didn't use it becuase that was Kishimoto's response to the people writing him who said "she used naruto's love for her and told him she loved him. Note Kishimoto says ON THE CONTRARY I " Good grief! I notice you left out the other comments he received from these same people going on and on about how wonderful Hinata was vs how awful Sakura was and how this had gotten to the point it was irritating Kishimoto, and how in response he was going write Sakura even more heroic and even more a central character.

The manga itself supports Kishimoto's words about writing Sakura the way he intended. No wonder Kishimoto is irritated, I'm getting rather irritated myself from seeing some readers who call themselves narusaku fans being as being even more set in their image of Sakura as a 12 year old Sasuke fangirl as Naruto, mixed with rabid naruhina shipper Sakura bashing, and bound and determined not to change that image no matter what happens in the manga or even what Kishimoto says in interviews.

[TwilightLink20xx]

It's not that I doubt Sakura's feelings towards Naruto. In the latest chapters there has been proof, I completely agree. What is bothering me is Sakura's all-of-a-sudden confession. It just didn't seem right. It seems thats she's only making more mistakes, even though she vowed she wouldn't make them anymore.
I also have to agree with Soupy that Sakura still hasn't made up her mind to whom she loves the most. From what I've been reading, Sakura cares about both of them to do the things she has decided to do: kill Sasuke and take the wight, of the burden, off Naruto's shoulders.
I'm worried about the confession, not exactly confused. The question, now is, will Naruto forgive Sakura form using his feeling and attempting to kill Sasuke on her own. Will he be mad?

I wouldn't fret Cupcake-chan, this is a typical plot device. Kishimoto is not stupid, he is going to milk that love triangle for all it's worth. Now, I can't see him leaving it up in the air much longer, but the key thing is that the timing was intended to be out of left field. There are multiple factors that are leading me to believe that he is doing this to clean slate and get Naruto to wake up. This is not so much Sakura development so much as it is Naruto development. One of the key things that Kishimoto has had to bring up is that Naruto is stuck in the past, and we know for a fact that Naruto cares about Sakura's happiness, and Sasuke's well-being. He still sees both of his teammates as the same people from three years back when it couldn't be farther from the case. For Naruto to be able to accept that Sakura might love him means he needs to get past the fact that she is not the same person. Simultaneously, Naruto has to understand that Sakrua has chosen this course because Sasuke has become a monster that barely resembles the friend he once had. All in all, the reason Kishimoto wrote this this way is to get Naruto out of the past.

As for Sakura's reasoning, I'd say that we've gotten a good picture of why. Sakura didn't want Naruto to get invloved or even know the truth. Why is that? Because she knows Naruto better, and she knew he would take it extremely hard. So what did she do? She tried to duck the issue. Why the confession? We don't know for sure, but it's likely because she felt that if she talked to him as the person he fell for, then it might work. Now, this doesn't mean that the confession itself was unvalid, the subtle things and the way that Kishimoto draws the panels when Sakura is talking to Naruto about her feelings towards him seem to be genuine. The issue is that Sakura isn't a good liar, and is caught off-guard when Naruto reads that she's hiding something about Sasuke. At the end, she doesn't back down from what she was saying and is adamant about Naruto not knowing the truth. Why? Well, I think we found out in 476. She knew Naruto would react in a similar way, that he couldn't handle it in his current state. Well, we'll see how this turns out, but don't worry about the timing and the effect it will have on any of the characters. Everything is slowly being resolved, and I think we'll find that Sakura's confession has done an overwhelming amount of good, rather than bad.

[RedDelicious]

I have to agree, it does seem like Kishimoto meant to cause the reader to doubt Sakura's words. If he had meant Sakura to look completely truthful, he could have done a much more heartwarming scene. But that wasn't how he wanted things to go. He made most of the characters skeptical, including Naruto.

Were most of the characters skeptical?
The only person I think was skeptical was Naruto, and he has since found out that his reasons for being skeptical (holding onto 3 year old memories of Team 7) were wrong. But since the reader identifies with him, that colored the rest of the scene, regardless of the truth.
I think the rest were surprised that she would put a love confession to Naruto ahead of killing Sasuke (*cough*cough* ).

My point is that Sakura doesn't know who she loves yet. That is my interpretation of the manga. She loves Naruto a lot, but she also hasn't dealt with her feelings for Sasuke.

I think she has dealt with her feelings for Sasuke. (That's my interpretation.)
In chapter 458, she started bawling her eyes out when she realized how much Naruto loved her.
Then she opened her eyes in shock, then hung her head in shame, we she thought that she was hurting him.
(So she has had her eyes opened about Naruto.)
In chapter 459 page 10, she tells Shikamaru: "... please... don't say anything more..."
I think that is the moment she finally dealt with what she felt (past tense) for Sasuke, on top of all the subtle changes in Part II that led up to that moment.

What would need to be shown to make you think that Sakura has dealt with her feelings for Sasuke?
(That sounds more combative than I want. This is an honest question.)
Although we know that she will meet Sasuke again, the character of Sakura doesn't know that the story is going to take her there. So a face-to-face confrontation may never come, in her mind.

To shift gears a bit, this would seem to be another reason why NaruSaku feels right. Naruto and Sakura both have strong feelings for the other, but had thought that it was wishful thinking that the other might feel that intensely as well. And when those illusions were broken, they both reacted very strongly: crying. (Naruto didn't cry as much, but he did pass out on top of that).

edit:

Why the confession? We don't know for sure, but it's likely because she felt that if she talked to him as the person he fell for, then it might work.

I have made the argument that she confessed because it was now or never. She believes that hunting for Sasuke will make Naruto hate her (in Sai's opinion), in which case if she waited at all she would never get to confess.

She also put a (slim) chance of happiness with Naruto ahead of dealing with Saskuke. If Naruto had accepted her offer to go back to the village together (and stay there), neither of them would be hunting Sasuke.

Edited by RedDelicious, 04 January 2010 - 03:31 PM.

[ciardha]

I have made the argument that she confessed because it was now or never. She believes that hunting for Sasuke will make Naruto hate her (in Sai's opinion), in which case if she waited at all she would never get to confess.

She also put a (slim) chance of happiness with Naruto ahead of dealing with Saskuke. If Naruto had accepted her offer to go back to the village together (and stay there), neither of them would be hunting Sasuke.

Yeah that's pretty close to what I got out of that too, although I do think after a while Sakura would have slipped off to attempt to kill Sasuke- taking the burden off of Naruto and assuming them herself. Sai does say that he asked Sakura not to take it on all herself, that he was part of Team 7 now too. That was the only time Sai says he thought she was lying as she reassured him that she would- doing it of course because she has come to even value Sai, and wouldn't want him to risk his life either. Sakura feels Sai is right, everyone has thrown all their burdens onto Naruto. Sakura's response really shows how much she and Naruto are alike, she decides she must now take on all the burdens of Team 7 that she had trusted to Naruto.

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

Yeah that's pretty close to what I got out of that too, although I do think after a while Sakura would have slipped off to attempt to kill Sasuke- taking the burden off of Naruto and assuming them herself. Sai does say that he asked Sakura not to take it on all herself, that he was part of Team 7 now too. That was the only time Sai says he thought she was lying as she reassured him that she would- doing it of course because she has come to even value Sai, and wouldn't want him to risk his life either. Sakura feels Sai is right, everyone has thrown all their burdens onto Naruto. Sakura's response really shows how much she and Naruto are alike, she decides she must now take on all the burdens of Team 7 that she had trusted to Naruto.

Kakashi's also pointed out in the Chunin Exams how Naruto and Sakura both can't stand losing for one thing. We also know both of them can be stubborn but determined when they try to achieve a goal. And both will take on another burden if they need to.

But in this case, Naruto just is being stubborn because of his wanting to be like the hero in Legend of a Gutsy Ninja, while Sakura knows Sasuke has to be stopped, or else the world will suffer as will she and Naruto, and her feeling she has to do it to make amends with Naruto for shouldering him with the burden of saving Sasuke in the first place.

Bryon