9679 replies to this topic

[Jenskott]

In shoujo manga that type romance dates back to 1972 with Riyoko Ikeda's "Rose of Versailles", closely followed by Machiko Satonaka's "Tomorrow Will Shine" The shoujo version is more realistic than the shonen type, the shonen type emphasizes the hot temper in a humorous way, where in the shoujo version the emphasis is on her strong will making her a heroic figure, either as a fighter or an achiever who overcomes the barriers in her way because of gender expectations and/or social class. Rose of Versailles does the former, Tomorrow Will Shine the later. Sadly, neither have been offically translated into English... both are impressive stories in and of themselves, and also for being what makes the foundation for the character type in shoujo manga.

You know, now I am starting to think that archetype is even older in shojo... if TVTropes can be believed, that is:

Honey Honey

I watched this show back in the late nineties but I had forgotten about it until I came across that page as I was gathering information about classic shows. After thinking about it, I think the article is right and the main character fit the tsundere type. Nevertheless, it has been a while since I watched it, so my memory is a tad foggy.

I also remember the Ranma shipping wars and they were incredibly stupid. Apparently Ranma couldn't end up with Akane whye she was psychotic and violent and never trusted him, and he would deserve a girl peaceful who would never hit him or jump to conclusions... like Ukyo or Shampoo. What? (to people who has never read or watched Ranma: Ukyo or Shampoo were way, way more violent than Akane, and couldn't care less about Ranma's feelings).

Tsundere- type characters often are a target for handdom hatred: Akane (Ranma), Shinobu (Urusei Yatsura... which is hilarious because the other main female character is also a tsundere), Misty (Pokemon), Asuka (Evangelion), Relena (Gundam Wing... albeit she is hated by yaoi fangirls for being main's character's official love interest and not a man)...

Sometimes I would like going back to the seventies and finding out if fans also hated Sayaka Yumi and the other tsundere characters of the Mazinger series (Jun Hono, Hikaru Makiba and Maria Fleed) for not putting up with their love interests when they did something stupid or sexist, back then when the tsundere archetype were new.

Regarding Sasuke... Never I liked him, honestly. I understood the appeal of the silent character, but I wasn't too interested on it (and actually I was pretty sick of seeing silent, cold and somewhat jerkish main characters back then). And that was before he started going mad.

Sakura behaved like an average twelve-year old girl: she fell in love with the "cool and rebel-looking" guy in the class and thought the power of her love could heal the scars of his heart and soul... and then she got to spend time with him and steadily realized the reality. Not matter how much SS fans want believing otherwise, she had forsaken any dellusions of Sasuke being her charming prince before the end of Part I.

[Codus N]

Misty (Pokemon)

WHAT THE???!!! that is total blasphemy!!! any true Pokemon fan would know that Misty was the one and only for Ash back in the day. It was too freakin' obvious way back in the day that even a 7-year old kid would figure out that those two were canon!!!!

[Jenskott]

WHAT THE???!!! that is total blasphemy!!! any true Pokemon fan would know that Misty was the one and only for Ash back in the day. It was too freakin' obvious way back in the day that even a 7-year old kid would figure out that those two were canon!!!!

Don't look at me. I am and -most surely- I will always be an Ash/Misty shipper, not matter how many girls the cartoon-makers replace her with.

But I have found Misty bashing. And... Let's say it was not pretty.

[Living Lavish]

I am in the same boat as you, I watched Digimon and I didn't get the pairing I was hoping for (Tai and Sora) That pairing not happening really scarred me and that is why I am so worried about Narusaku. Taiora had so many moments,but out of nowhere she ended up with matt. After the show ended and sometimes to this day I read about who could have been and feel left out. I personally have a goal of being able to re-do digimon for the sake of that pairing.

lol she didnt end up out of nowhere with Matt they had moments all throught the series one and two, some small mostly. but they friends and looked out for eachother. a great friendship that turned into love.
to this day its one of my favourite pairings.

Edited by Living Lavish, 03 May 2011 - 05:00 PM.

[Jenskott]

Hm this is off-topic but I have to agree, I loved Misty! I was so mad and refused to watch Pokeon ever again when they replaced her.
And of course she got bashed. Every female character with strength and an opinion gets bashed.

I stopped watching Pokemon long ago, but it wasn't cause Misty leaving. I had been bored to tears during the Orange League season, and the first chapters of the first Johto season were almost so dull. I lost interest before the first Gym battle, so I quit. I have been pretending Pokemon ended after the Indigo League since then (and Ash and Misty got together).

I am in the same boat as you, I watched Digimon and I didn't get the pairing I was hoping for (Tai and Sora) That pairing not happening really scarred me and that is why I am so worried about Narusaku.

I am not worried. Back when I began reading Urusei Yatsura, I thought the official couple would be Ataru/Shinobu, but later it become Ataru/Lum. Several years later I found out Rumiko Takahashi intended Ataru and Shinobu ended up together, but her editor forced her to hook up Ataru and Lum due to fan pressure.

Maybe you are wondering because I am not worried if I have only cited one instance where fandom forced the creator to change her history. I am not worried because that switch happened in the first volumes. Hence, if Kishimoto was going to switch Naruto's official couple, he would have done so TEN YEARS AGO.

Moreover, NH Japanese fandom isn't so large, so they aren't strong enough to force anything.

[Blazing CobaltX]

Hm this is off-topic but I have to agree, I loved Misty! I was so mad and refused to watch Pokeon ever again when they replaced her.
And of course she got bashed. Every female character with strength and an opinion gets bashed.

That is totally true! Every woman with a strong will gets bashed! I'm a total fan of Misty and was very dissapointed when they replaced her(Although I didn't stop watching Pokémon).

[bthug]

Yes. But there is also he fact that she is a TsunDere. People may not know the violence is for humor and may take that seriously. Especially in the anime. Yeah is is stupid that she could really. I mean honestly, her feelings do not remain at all today. All that was was, I think, her knowing that Sasuke has had it rough and some illusion of his old self. (Apparenty Naruto looks good too now but he didn't back then lol.)

As for as TsunDere girls I like them, I find it cute or a cool way to hid feelings. I have always felt like every time Sakura hits or calls Naruto a idiot she is just showing her love and care for him.

Edited by bthug, 03 May 2011 - 07:42 PM.

[Phantom_999]

That is totally true! Every woman with a strong will gets bashed! I'm a total fan of Misty and was very dissapointed when they replaced her(Although I didn't stop watching Pokémon).

Too true Colbalt too true I feel that People HATE strong willed or masculine women because that attitude which they think is not CUTE which is totally SAD because hey strong willed women are important and need to take charge just as much as men in this world and if it turns you off then your loss to be sure. I like that Sakura has a strong will yet shows her feminine side too. Naruto just did not see it as a sign that her feelings for him have changed to blossoming love because he was too clingy with his previous perception of team 7, and also because he sometimes ends up in violent contact with her fist which is why like the stereotypical shonen protagonist he remains oblivious tho the "signals" she's giving him

As for as TsunDere girls I like them, I find it cute or a cool way to hid feelings. I have always felt like every time Sakura hits or calls Naruto a idiot she is just showing her love and care for him.

Only one flaw with your reasoning bthug Sakura only hit Naruto when he was ANNOYING her otherwise she shows him her affection in normal ways but he just thinks its friendly gesture assuming she's not being serious because of his thinking that she's still in love with Sasuke plus she did not hit him that much in the manga. May be 7-8 time in total of the entire series so far and with obvious reason too because Naruto was being obnoxious in those times. The last three times she hit him was because 1. he had betrayed her expectations of seeming more mature and grown up( but she also thought he looked more physically attractive ), 2. He had (unintentionally) insulted her womanhood by stating what he thought Sai said to her to make her cry which indirectly states his opinion; he did not find her at all feminine, and lastly for putting himself in danger and almost getting himself killed (which actually corresponds to your point) but any way the tsundere part of Sakura's personality is for comedy mostly because the the romance scenes are pretty tender and heartwarming before they switch to a funny situation or in the last case (chapter 469) something cynical and suspicious.

Edited by Phantom_999, 06 May 2011 - 11:11 PM.

[Greed-Sama]

lol she didnt end up out of nowhere with Matt they had moments all throught the series one and two, some small mostly. but they friends and looked out for eachother. a great friendship that turned into love.
to this day its one of my favourite pairings.

No there were very few moments and not enough to turn to love. It almost reminds of NaruHina. The anime led its viewers on. Taiora was a much more defined pairing, even with the movie "Our War Game!," I understand that Matt was a good guy, but the moments were not enough to constitute the pairing.

As for bashing of strong female characters, I honestly think that it's something to do with jealousy.

[The Tax-Man]

@bthug, I also think Minato must have had a lot of fangirls, he's better looking than Naruto and has a calmer personality.

Actually, Minato looked 'girly' in his young days. It was only when he grew up that he looked good. And considering Naruto looks almost exactly like him... I doubt the assumption he doesn't look good now, considering comments in part 2 since the beginning.

Even when he was a kid, Naruto looked like him. Except he was only more extroverted and boyish. Other than the front bit of hair and the goofy smile, they look strikingly alike.

[pharix]

I've said it before, but switching to NH/SS after all the NS development and hints would really leave a bad taste in my mouth :/

[Paptala]

Well, I'm ashamed to say that had I been a 12 year old girl, and given the choice between Sasuke and Naruto, I would have definitely preferred Sasuke. That (usually) what 12 years old girls are about... . We have zero sense at this age...
Come on, at the beginning, Naruto was loud, obnoxious, has little to zero culture or manners (would slurp food messily, burp, fart etc), whereas Sasuke was quiet and cool.

But of course, growing up, you get to see beneath the surface, that's when Naruto surpasses Sasuke in term of interest. I find it to be a logical and very natural process: at 12 years, girls are more interested in looks (generally, of course there are exceptions) and growing older, they acquire more wisdom and knows that looks does not matter.

In all honesty, I would have liked Sasuke initially, but would have been incredibly turned off by his cold attitude. I've had a history with the good looking, snobby popular people, and Sasuke gave off that air as a twelve year old academy student. Unless I actually spent time with Sasuke as Sakura did, then I might grow to like him after seeing he's a good person (only that was shot to hell later). I would have, in all honesty, given up on him entirely after the apple slapping scene.

Not really how I would react to a real life Naruto. On the one hand, he was pretty gross and annoying at times as a twelve year old, shouting and getting in your face and what not. And yet, he was still really nice when it came down to it, and loyal too. I think I would have grown to like him pretty quickly.

I don't blame Sakura for being infactuated with Sasuke at that time, though I give her real credit for still admiring Naruto as well since the beginning (this is shown in MANY instances in the Manga). In fact, looking at it, I would go as far as to say that Sakura was MORE supportive and admirative of Naruto than Hinata even during that time, but since her infactuation with Sasuke was more emphasized, the attention was taken away from it and since Hinata was always blushing and fainting, it was quite attention grabbing.

That's why I like Sakura. She is what in reality millions of 12 years old are about, though many would deny it.

This is unbelievably true, both about Sakura being there for Naruto more than Hinata ever was and Sakura being a realistic representation of a twelve year old girl.

The fact that Naruto claimed that Sakura, along with Team 7 and Iruka were the most important to him because they saved him from the hell of loneliness, and not mentioning or thinking or even alluding to anything to do with Hinata despite the scene in question taking place AFTER all of their development in part one is enough to prove that Sakura has done more for Naruto, has been there for Naruto, more than Hinata.

People call Sakura kitteny and shallow, but you know what? On the surface, that's how most twelve year old girls are. Sakura was still nice when it counted, and grew into this amazing person.

And that's what makes me qualify Hinata's love to be actually more a type of veneration and esteem (he represented freedom when she herself was bound in a rigid clan) rather than actual love.

I simply have trouble swallowing Hinata's love for Naruto because she barely interacted with him - how can you love someone, genuinely, without interacting with them often?

Actually, Minato looked 'girly' in his young days. It was only when he grew up that he looked good. And considering Naruto looks almost exactly like him... I doubt the assumption he doesn't look good now, considering comments in part 2 since the beginning.

Even when he was a kid, Naruto looked like him. Except he was only more extroverted and boyish. Other than the front bit of hair and the goofy smile, they look strikingly alike.

Well, the fact that Sakura blushed when Naruto returned after the 2.5 year time skip, along with the fact that Kushina said Naruto had her face (and Kushina is canonically beautiful) makes Naruto being good looking a canon fact in my mind.

Edited by Paptala, 04 May 2011 - 12:15 AM.

[bthug]

No there were very few moments and not enough to turn to love. It almost reminds of NaruHina. The anime led its viewers on. Taiora was a much more defined pairing, even with the movie "Our War Game!," I understand that Matt was a good guy, but the moments were not enough to constitute the pairing.

As for bashing of strong female characters, I honestly think that it's something to do with jealousy.

Yea their were practically no moments, but in Our War Game theirs more total then all of Matt and Sora....lets not forget what happened in season one with Tai rescuing Sora.

[ciardha]

You know, now I am starting to think that archetype is even older in shojo... if TVTropes can be believed, that is:

Honey Honey

I watched this show back in the late nineties but I had forgotten about it until I came across that page as I was gathering information about classic shows. After thinking about it, I think the article is right and the main character fit the tsundere type. Nevertheless, it has been a while since I watched it, so my memory is a tad foggy.

Saw the wikipedia article about it too and yeah, I think she's tsundere too, interestingly enough it's a comedy drama like Ranma 1/2 was. With the creator being Hideko Mizuno- a female assistant to Tezuka (who did Princess Knight- introducing the trope that Ikeda built on and used with much more depth- everyone knows Lady Oscar is a young woman- or soon finds out, but she was raised mostly like a boy and trained to be a solider.) I'm not surprised she succeeded, that's mighty good credentials to come from. However, apparently Honey must have been too tsundere for 1966 Japan, because the ratings were low for the anime.

TV Tropes is wrong about Mizuno being one of the first successful female mangaka, there were several successful ones in the 1930's and 40's, including Machiko Hasegawa, who's manga Sazae-san (done in the popular earlier manga style rather the style Tezuka popularized) was adapted to anime and is still the longest running anime- now nearly 20 years after her death.

More on earlier female mangaka --Click here to view--

And in shoujo manga done in Tezuka's style- (from which the modern manga storytelling comes from) successful creators Toshiko Ueda and Masako Watanabe predate Mizuno's debut (1956) by several years. In Ueda's case many years- earlier than even Hasegawa, she changes styles when she begins writing for Shoujo Book in 1951- this semi autobiographical story Fuichin-san was finally adapted to anime in 2003. Watanabe begins as children's book illustrator in 1949, but switched to manga in 1952, and when josei manga magazines premiere in the early 1980's Watanabe becomes a pioneer in that market

Hasagawa's Sazae, when I think of it, might be the origin of the tsundere type. Again it's a comedy- situational, familial, but Sazae has some of the qualities that would later be used for both shonen and shoujo tsundere. Although much more within traditional lines by 1969- when the anime started on Japanese TV. Some of the Sazae-san manga has been translated into English.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sazae-san
http://en.wikipedia....achiko_Hasegawa

Interestingly enough, on the trashing the strong willed female character front, I recall none before Ranma 1/2, not even Kaori in City Hunter- famous for her "dimensional hammers" used on Ryo whenever he started acting perverted. Ryo chased lots of women and there was even a bit of mutual attraction with two other female characters who were prettier, less hot tempered (no dimensional hammer and sexier. But I don't recall anyone bashing Kaori for her violent temper (they read it as the humorous take on her strong will as it was supposed to be) , or being less sexy, and most people shipped KaorixRyo.

I'm thinking this may be a generational thing. City Hunter was marketed in the US as an adult anime (despite the manga having been in Shonen Jump in Japan. it was many years after the anime was released in the US before any of the manga was translated) The thing was if you were an adult like me in the later 1980's you were old enough to remember and been influenced (including guys too) the Second Wave of the feminist movement and were able to code the character type the same way the Japanese audience would have. (It's like how my paternal uncle- born 1945 and his wife, my paternal aunt by marriage- born 1937, immediately got the humor of Sakura going tsundere on Naruto when he begins to do his new "even more perverted" Sexy-no-Jutsu right in front of her in Shippuden episode 1. They'd never seen the show before, didn't know the characters, but they both busted out laughing even more than I did at that scene.) For those too young who grew up under the virulent backlash era (1981 onward) in the west don't automatically get (without having to even say- ah, tsundere character) what the tsundere is- a strong willed young woman, who's reactions are comedic exaggerations but coded to be mostly sympathetic to what she has to put up with.

Edited by ciardha, 04 May 2011 - 01:03 AM.

[ShippudenGirl]

Well I guess this generation is just full of snobs. I guarantee anyone can relate to Sakura being angry; I've hit a few boys myself for acting inappropriate, though they strangely enjoy it too much >.>

People probably enjoy their "sweet lil' Hinata" because they like girls who have boobs... and faint? In all honesty, if anyone fainted or blushed like that it'd be so unbelievable freaking annoyed.

[Zin]

People probably enjoy their "sweet lil' Hinata" because they like girls who have boobs... and faint? In all honesty, if anyone fainted or blushed like that it'd be so unbelievable freaking annoyed.

Don't lump all of us men together...I find women are beautiful in a variety of different ways. Personally, I don't find Hinata attractive. I find her eyes to be ugly and her clothing to be completely unflattering. And I agree with you completely regarding her shyness. If someone is THAT shy they need to seek professional help(It can't be good to faint so often...Who knows what you might hit on the way down. Not to mention the blood always rushing to her head).

As for tsunderes, I really don't understand why people don't like them. But perhaps, that's merely because I grew up watching anime. I'm used to them.

Edited by Zin, 04 May 2011 - 01:30 AM.

[Fliss]

People probably enjoy their "sweet lil' Hinata" because they like girls who have boobs... and faint? In all honesty, if anyone fainted or blushed like that it'd be so unbelievable freaking annoyed.

That's the sad thing. really. I would probably be able to like Hinata if those attributes weren't so worshiped by her fan base. She is a nice girl but the worship totally turned me off and I couldn't stand her after that.

[Darth Krypt]

I simply have trouble swallowing Hinata's love for Naruto because she barely interacted with him - how can you love someone, genuinely, without interacting with them often?

Well the "interaction" has been one-sided with Hinata observing Naruto from afar. Ever since Naruto saved her from those bullies(was this moment canon?) her interest was piqued. She observe Naruto all this while seeing him as a determined person and that inspired her. That feeling grew to admiration then mutated to love. Since she has been observing him from afar, Naruto wasn't part of the interaction hence the one-sided love.

[Greed-Sama]

People probably enjoy their "sweet lil' Hinata" because they like girls who have boobs... and faint? In all honesty, if anyone fainted or blushed like that it'd be so unbelievable freaking annoyed.

You know you have to give people some credit. I'm sure some men would like a girl who doesn't say crap back to them.

I on the other, yeah not so much, but hey.