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The Great NaruSaku Debate Thread!


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#2841 Froot

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Posted 28 December 2009 - 06:26 PM

QUOTE
ii can give you some

first kishi never wanted sakura to be detestable, the hug was suppose to be more romantic it think(someone correct me if im wrong) kishi never said sakura love sasuke, and i think he was fed up with hinata fans and saying sakura is the heroine not hinata in the nicest way possibe

uh i hope that helps somewhat

ill get back to you when reread about it


Okay, okay... Hm. Thank you! biggrin.gif I appreciate it! That's what I read too, but I just wanted to see it confirmed. Thank you so much, fire, I'm getting some ideas... a_plotting.gif

QUOTE
I'm a huge NaruSaku fan, but even I have to admit that my confidence in the pairings has been dwindling. It's like Harry/Hermoine all over again. I remember coming up with reasons which were "irrefutable" when up against the Harry/Ginny and Ron/Hermoine crowd, yet that didn't change the truth in the end.


Kenny, I don't think it's fair to comapre Naruto to Harry Potter, when they're two completely different works. It's like when people compare DBZ to Naruto. Naruto is its own manga with its own themes and its own plot developments. I can understand why you're doing it, but there's no need. happy.gif

QUOTE
This interview has certainly been pretty startling and I'm very sure that I could rationalize it in favor of "Kishi definitely supports NaruSaku" in the end just as I am sure anyone can, but perhaps all of that "pairing development" is nothing more than bad writing on Kishi's part.


Totally honestly, Kenny, at this point, NO PAIRINGS seems like bad writing to me. He's sure put a lot of effort into NaruSaku. Remember the Tenchikyou bridge? Remember all the little hints he's dropped around, like the Ichiraku feeding scene, the scenes where they're just walking around together, the scene before the timeskip when they were in the hospital...

That right there is putting more effort in romance than I've seen many shounen mangaka do. Bad writing would be "let me waste all this panel space, all these chapters and all these moments and do a cop=out and leave it pairingless in the end." By now, I'm sure Kishi knows that his readers have expectations for SOMETHING. After all, why wouldn't he? He's been purposely leading them on.

QUOTE
Kishi has made quite a few ridiculous moves throughout part II (Pein waving a magic wand and bringing everyone back to life, Kisami's death and the Uchiha cluttered plot to name a few) and has maintained Sakura's feelings for Sasuke when they pretty much have no reason to be anything more than a childish crush


Not pointing any fingers, but people severely underestimate Kishi. He did everything for a reason. For example:

QUOTE
Pein waving a magic wand and bringing everyone back to life


If he hadn't, Kakashi would have remained dead, leaving Konoha with no potential Hokage like it needs right now. What if the plot progressed the way it is now and Kakashi was dead? Who would sub? Besides, we do NOT need Naruto sulking over his teachers again.

QUOTE
Kisami's death


Not necessarily his death, but the way it was executed.

QUOTE
the Uchiha cluttered plot


What can I say? Sasuke's a main character. The Uchiha are important to the plot. Not to mention both antagonists are affiliated with that clan in some way. Sure, he might pay an annoyingly high amount of attention to Sasuke, but the thing is, the plot needs that attention.

QUOTE
has maintained Sakura's feelings for Sasuke when they pretty much have no reason to be anything more than a childish crush


Lord knows what Kishi's planning. But all I can say is, I'd prefer it if we didn't get NaruSaku because Sakura lost her feelings for Sasuke randomly, but through resolution. Which this is setting up for.

QUOTE
And quite frankly, I never did buy the whole "brothers" theme between Naruto and Sasuke (it could have been better developed, but I won't get into that here). In many ways, he is on par with Tite Kubo; he'll often disregard storyline potential and do something completely ridiculous instead.


Again, comparing works.

QUOTE
Now I'm not saying that I don't believe NaruSaku will not happen, but I certainly don't deny the likelihood of there being no confirmed pairings in the end or . . . *shudders* NaruHina.


It's okay, Kenny. I have my doubtful moments, too. But when that happens, I think back on all Kishi's done in NaruSaku's favor. Even if he left it ambiguous, we have the pleasure of knowing that our pairing has the most development and might as well be considered canon. As for NaruHina... Well, considering the fact that Naruto loves Sakura and still barely knows Hinata, and hasn't suddenly fallen in love with her like the NH fans expected him to... Well, if worst comes to worst, we can honestly call NH a crack pairing and THEN compare it to Harry Potter. laugh.gif

#2842 ciardha

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Posted 28 December 2009 - 06:38 PM

QUOTE (firegirl @ Dec 28 2009, 12:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
umm im a ron adn herminoe fan and to me thats way more of the narusaku realationship both couples have tension and both girls gradualy if read the book and manga carefully grew affection torwds those two boys. ron can be jerk sometimes but hes has a good heart unlike sasuke, naruto can be jerk too when hes cocky but also has a good heart.

and they are both dumb book with mishivous personality and cocky boy and booksmart girl with bad temper

so i see both couples well balanced

harry and hermine never have that much tension and it was more shown in the movies then the book

but i do agre with wth when did harry started liking ginny, but at least she had more devlopment then hinata

so dont give up narusaku

just keep reading



Maybe it's because I'm just a year younger than Rowling and didn't really get into the books until Snape's childhood background started playing a stronger role (book 4), but I could see as soon as Hermoine and Ron first interacted they'd end up together- the sniping at each other but being allies made it pretty obvious, ditto for Ginny and Harry. Ginny was way too obvious the author's self inserted character- in other words a Mary-Sue. However, Rowling made rivals for her pairings come across better developed than the ones that they ended up with. Harry with Hermoine or Luna had more depth than Harry with Ginny. Ron also comes across as really unsympathic in the last book which does make the Hermoine/Ron pairing seem not a as good as it could be. Rowling should have developed Ron as more likeable not less as the series went on.
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#2843 Froot

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Posted 28 December 2009 - 07:06 PM

Ok, gaiz, I've started my comic. It's gonna be called "NaruHina and SasuSaku Fans' Jump Fiesta." (If you've got a better idea, let me know! sweatdrop.gif)

So, I guess I'll give firegirl a shout-out or something for her help. Anyone who helps gets a shout-out. PLEASE?!

I'd also like some extra ideas wow.png

Edited by Froot, 28 December 2009 - 07:16 PM.


#2844 firegirl

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Posted 28 December 2009 - 07:22 PM

QUOTE (ciardha @ Dec 28 2009, 01:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Maybe it's because I'm just a year younger than Rowling and didn't really get into the books until Snape's childhood background started playing a stronger role (book 4), but I could see as soon as Hermoine and Ron first interacted they'd end up together- the sniping at each other but being allies made it pretty obvious, ditto for Ginny and Harry. Ginny was way too obvious the author's self inserted character- in other words a Mary-Sue. However, Rowling made rivals for her pairings come across better developed than the ones that they ended up with. Harry with Hermoine or Luna had more depth than Harry with Ginny. Ron also comes across as really unsympathic in the last book which does make the Hermoine/Ron pairing seem not a as good as it could be. Rowling should have developed Ron as more likeable not less as the series went on.



i dont like harry/ginny

to me harry/luna was more belivable i love luna for her nuttyness which can also be wise she and harry have more thing in commen in my opinon
to me harry needs someone that understand hermione never really atually understood him but luna to me really did espeicaly with death and loosing someone ginny and hermione never had that so they never understood him that well.(still couldnt belive luna married someone) i thought she would be single to be honest.

its the same with sakura and sasuke, sakura does not understand sasukse loss as well as naruto.

QUOTE
Ok, gaiz, I've started my comic. It's gonna be called "NaruHina and SasuSaku Fans' Jump Fiesta." (If you've got a better idea, let me know! )

So, I guess I'll give firegirl a shout-out or something for her help. Anyone who helps gets a shout-out. PLEASE?!

I'd also like some extra ideas


thanks for the shout out

heres a title for you ""read what kish said its sasusaku fools"" or The Truth of Kishis Words

Edited by firegirl, 28 December 2009 - 07:25 PM.


#2845 Kenny-kun

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Posted 28 December 2009 - 07:53 PM

QUOTE
Kenny, I don't think it's fair to comapre Naruto to Harry Potter, when they're two completely different works. It's like when people compare DBZ to Naruto. Naruto is its own manga with its own themes and its own plot developments. I can understand why you're doing it, but there's no need. happy.gif
The only comparison I was making is that both pairings served to potentially strengthen the themes in the story, hence make the story itself much better. Nothing beyond that. smile.gif


QUOTE
Totally honestly, Kenny, at this point, NO PAIRINGS seems like bad writing to me.
I'd have to disagree with you and shall sum up the bad writing quickly and concisely:

NaruHina: Has been completely one-sided through the entirety of the manga. Naruto has been given no reason to possess any interest in her. Even recently, we've learned that Naruto loves Sakura. I'd argue that the chemistry is poor, but more along the lines an opinion, so I won't get into that. Anyways, the point here is that for Naruto to suddenly turn around and receive Hinata's feelings makes no sense whatsoever. It'd be one thing if we were to have gotten budding seemingly romantic moments between the two here and then like how we have for NaruSaku, but that simply isn't the case and I'm sure everyone here realizes that.

SasuSaku: Like NaruHina, it's onesided and there hasn't been any development. From the beginning, Sakura's feelings for Sasuke were represented as a school girl crush no different than Ino's or any other girl who has gone out of the way to fawn over the Uchiha brat. There is no real rhyme or reason to this potential romance. At least with Naruto, we know that his feeling for Sakura stimulate from just how similar she is to him (as we can see in chapter 3 when makes the remark "Now I know why I like Sakura so much). Lack of development is the key here, but even worse than NaruHina, there is no actual reason to it. Sakura's feelings are silly and a sign of immaturity. And to have Sasuke SOMEHOW go through a massive character shift and return those feelings by the end of this manga is equally atrocious and would have to at very least be done with a time skip.

QUOTE
He's sure put a lot of effort into NaruSaku. Remember the Tenchikyou bridge? Remember all the little hints he's dropped around, like the Ichiraku feeding scene, the scenes where they're just walking around together, the scene before the timeskip when they were in the hospital...
I remember those just as I remember lots of hints (some expressed on this very forum) indicating that Sakura no longer had any feelings for Sasuke. Heck, I even remember people on this very board arguing that it was obvious Hinata was dead during the Pein arc or that NaruSaku was going to become canon in chapter 469-470. At the end of the day, I think we all have to realize that our arguments and rationalizations of things only go so far.

QUOTE
That right there is putting more effort in romance than I've seen many shounen mangaka do.
Only time will tell I suppose. I'd certainly like to think that this is what Kishi is doing, but it wouldn't surprise me for a moment to see him go all "ha ha! That was all to throw you off and surprise you in the end. I really meant NaruHina/SasuSaku. biggrin.gif ."

QUOTE
Bad writing would be "let me waste all this panel space, all these chapters and all these moments and do a cop=out and leave it pairingless in the end."
Yeah, that happens alot in anime. Code Geass is a good example. biggrin.gif
QUOTE
By now, I'm sure Kishi knows that his readers have expectations for SOMETHING. After all, why wouldn't he? He's been purposely leading them on.
He also knows that he'll keep more fans if he pisses no particular part of the fanbase off.


QUOTE
If he hadn't, Kakashi would have remained dead, leaving Konoha with no potential Hokage like it needs right now. What if the plot progressed the way it is now and Kakashi was dead? Who would sub? Besides, we do NOT need Naruto sulking over his teachers again.
Well firstly, he didn't need to kill Kakashi off like that. He could have just been severely wounded and we fans could have been left wondering whether or not he was dead. Secondly, I don't see the need to make Kakashi the Hokage. There were more certainly other routes he could take in handling this Hokage business in the current arc. If done right, I'm sure it could have turned out with Naruto being substitute Hokage for the time being . . . or he could simply keep Danzou around a bit longer rather than exposing him as a villain so early, hence allowing him to be Hokage (a Konoha civil war arc would have been interesting, but Kishi seems to want to wrap Naruto up quick, so . . .). As for Naruto sulking, that wouldn't necessarily have to be the case. Learning that people die if you're not strong enough to protect them could have been a lesson Naruto learned during his battle with Pein. In fact, after the battle, Naruto could have boastfully said something along the lines of "AS LONG AS I LIVE, I WILL NEVER LET A SINGLE MEMBER OF THIS VILLAGE DIE EVER AGAIN!", hence strengthening his resolve, and perhaps building upon the tension of whether or not he'd be able to save Sasuke in the end (as he still considers Sasuke a member of the village)



QUOTE
Not necessarily his death, but the way it was executed.
I'd say both. First, it was too soon. Second, he went down against a couple of throwaway characters. What happened to that rivalry with Gai? And here I was hoping it would get carried over to Rock Lee, hence finally giving him a redeeming canonical moment.

QUOTE
What can I say? Sasuke's a main character. The Uchiha are important to the plot. Not to mention both antagonists are affiliated with that clan in some way. Sure, he might pay an annoyingly high amount of attention to Sasuke, but the thing is, the plot needs that attention.
I agree; Sasuke is a main character. But this story shouldn't be so much about him, especially when there is SO MUCH RAW POTENTIAL elsewhere. Others may disagree with me when I say this, but I think Nagato was killed too soon. A rivalry between both him and Naruto as a running theme for many chapters would have been pretty good, given that their goals are the same. In fact (and I'm willing to give in on this one), I'd even say Nagato would have made a better final villain than Tobi. Instead, Nagato's goals, characterization and resolution was crammed into a couple of chapters. What's worse, Naruto's desire single handedly bring about world peace was simply summed up by a flashback (based on a scene which we have never seen before) rather than developed from past experiences (again, raw storyline potential which is wasted). That'd be like us never having seen Aokoji or Rob Lucci owning luffy in One Piece, only to see a quick never before seen flashback of Luffy realizing that he'll lose all of his nakama if he doesn't get stronger, hence why he decides to develop Gear 2.

Whoa. Talk about a rant on my part. I went way off topic. Sorry. smile.gif

#2846 firegirl

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Posted 28 December 2009 - 08:03 PM

QUOTE
I'd have to disagree with you and shall sum up the bad writing quickly and concisely:

QUOTE
NaruHina: Has been completely one-sided through the entirety of the manga. Naruto has been given no reason to possess any interest in her. Even recently, we've learned that Naruto loves Sakura. I'd argue that the chemistry is poor, but more along the lines an opinion, so I won't get into that. Anyways, the point here is that for Naruto to suddenly turn around and receive Hinata's feelings makes no sense whatsoever. It'd be one thing if we were to have gotten budding seemingly romantic moments between the two here and then like how we have for NaruSaku, but that simply isn't the case and I'm sure everyone here realizes that.

QUOTE
SasuSaku: Like NaruHina, it's onesided and there hasn't been any development. From the beginning, Sakura's feelings for Sasuke were represented as a school girl crush no different than Ino's or any other girl who has gone out of the way to fawn over the Uchiha brat. There is no real rhyme or reason to this potential romance. At least with Naruto, we know that his feeling for Sakura stimulate from just how similar she is to him (as we can see in chapter 3 when makes the remark "Now I know why I like Sakura so much). Lack of development is the key here, but even worse than NaruHina, there is no actual reason to it. Sakura's feelings are silly and a sign of immaturity. And to have Sasuke SOMEHOW go through a massive character shift and return those feelings by the end of this manga is equally atrocious and would have to at very least be done with a time skip.


but remember kenny thats only naruhina and sasusaku

not narusaku

so hes being terrible with those two for a reason(get what im talking about)

QUOTE
I agree; Sasuke is a main character. But this story shouldn't be so much about him, especially when there is SO MUCH RAW POTENTIAL elsewhere. Others may disagree with me when I say this, but I think Nagato was killed too soon. A rivalry between both him and Naruto as a running theme for many chapters would have been pretty good, given that their goals are the same. In fact (and I'm willing to give in on this one), I'd even say Nagato would have made a better final villain than Tobi. Instead, Nagato's goals, characterization and resolution was crammed into a couple of chapters. What's worse, Naruto's desire single handedly bring about world peace was simply summed up by a flashback (based on a scene which we have never seen before) rather than developed from past experiences (again, raw storyline potential which is wasted). That'd be like us never having seen Aokoji or Rob Lucci owning luffy in One Piece, only to see a quick never before seen flashback of Luffy realizing that he'll lose all of his nakama if he doesn't get stronger, hence why he decides to develop Gear 2.

QUOTE
Whoa. Talk about a rant on my part. I went way off topic. Sorry.


kid i agree with you on this. too much of sasuke is enough in my book, it just about his stupid revenge(sorry if anyone likes him) i on the other hand want o learn more of narutos kushina she seems like na interesting character and love to learn more about her backround.

Edited by firegirl, 28 December 2009 - 08:07 PM.


#2847 catsi563

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Posted 28 December 2009 - 08:20 PM

just remember a few things.

One Sakura was originaly designed to be somewhat annoying. Not detestable. but Kishimoto himself stated in one of his earliest interviews that Sakura wasnt even really meant to be the main female lead. Biut as he wrote her she slowly became more and more the type of female lead he wanted.

She was also meant to grow from that annoying useless girl to the person shes become today.

As to Sakuras feelings. Again do not underestimate the feelings she does have for Sasuke. thanks to Naruto and the bench scene, she does love Sasuke. But she also loves Naruto and this is what is at the heart of her current situation. it would not suprise me if the entire idea of her plan is to die fighting sasuke. She takes sasuke out and dies in the process so she wont have to bare Narutos hatred and the loss of her two most precious people.

the key for Sakura is this upcoming confrontation with Sasuke. In ti she will have to confront certain truths. one of which Im still fairly confident of is that she still thinks it was Sasuke who was at the bench that day.

when it is discovered that she was with Naruto that day we will see an interesting and quite fundamental change come voer her.
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#2848 firegirl

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Posted 28 December 2009 - 08:27 PM

QUOTE (catsi563 @ Dec 28 2009, 03:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
just remember a few things.

One Sakura was originaly designed to be somewhat annoying. Not detestable. but Kishimoto himself stated in one of his earliest interviews that Sakura wasnt even really meant to be the main female lead. Biut as he wrote her she slowly became more and more the type of female lead he wanted.

She was also meant to grow from that annoying useless girl to the person shes become today.

As to Sakuras feelings. Again do not underestimate the feelings she does have for Sasuke. thanks to Naruto and the bench scene, she does love Sasuke. But she also loves Naruto and this is what is at the heart of her current situation. it would not suprise me if the entire idea of her plan is to die fighting sasuke. She takes sasuke out and dies in the process so she wont have to bare Narutos hatred and the loss of her two most precious people.

the key for Sakura is this upcoming confrontation with Sasuke. In ti she will have to confront certain truths. one of which Im still fairly confident of is that she still thinks it was Sasuke who was at the bench that day.

when it is discovered that she was with Naruto that day we will see an interesting and quite fundamental change come voer her.



u know i am starting to see your veiw catsi that really might be that she wants to die in the processe of killing sasuke, because she dosent want to face naruto.

but my Qusetion is even if she suceedes killing sasuke does naruto have the heart to hate her forever?

but i still think sai will do another thing to their relationship since he is with sakura, he might learn iher veiw about sasuke. and he migh learnt more than we all ever knew in her veiw about sasuke.

because even in part one if u read carfully sakura was afriad of sasuke torwds the end. she didnt trust him either she trust him as a teammate but didnt trust him after the FOD scramble, so it seems to me that she may have a compleatly diffrent veiw about sauske, they of what the fandom thinks and predicts

sakura is a wild card know one ever knows what she comepleatly thinking, and thats what i found thoughout the manga. if i remeber clearly the whole KN4 chapters were all in sakura POV and we saw her feeling for naruto and is has feer for naruto safty she even have flashabcks of him. also with the desioion she shows flashbacks of naruto how she and sasuke hurt emotionaly and pshisicly.

the flashbakc sakura had of the FOD in the chuni exams shows a prim example of her being afraid of sasuke, even when he shoved th apples in to her face she seamed scaired.

so i just dont think we should reliy on just the bench secene we need more POV or a full POV because though out part one and part 2 her veiws in both boys change

and to me again that confession to sasuke seemed like a desperate last attempt to me she wasent even ready to confess

Edited by firegirl, 28 December 2009 - 08:44 PM.


#2849 catsi563

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Posted 28 December 2009 - 08:40 PM

no not at all.

If he can survive and forgive Sasuke stabbing an arm through his chest im pretty confident he'll be able to forgive the girl hes in love with for protecting him by killing the person whose coming after him to kill him.

Hell he forgave Nagato and Nagato obliterated his entire village and was responsible for killing Jiraiya his mentor and godfather.

So no theres no way he would hate her forever,, hell I cant evens ee him hating her at all.
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#2850 Froot

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Posted 28 December 2009 - 08:53 PM

QUOTE
heres a title for you ""read what kish said its sasusaku fools"" or The Truth of Kishis Words


Thanks for the suggestions. happy.gif But I kind of wanted to put "Jump Fiesta" since they're having a party over it laugh.gif (Does that make sense? sweatdrop.gif)

QUOTE
I'd have to disagree with you and shall sum up the bad writing quickly and concisely:

NaruHina: Has been completely one-sided through the entirety of the manga. Naruto has been given no reason to possess any interest in her. Even recently, we've learned that Naruto loves Sakura. I'd argue that the chemistry is poor, but more along the lines an opinion, so I won't get into that. Anyways, the point here is that for Naruto to suddenly turn around and receive Hinata's feelings makes no sense whatsoever. It'd be one thing if we were to have gotten budding seemingly romantic moments between the two here and then like how we have for NaruSaku, but that simply isn't the case and I'm sure everyone here realizes that.


I think I phrased that wrong... When I said NO PAIRING would be bad writing, I was trying to get across that Kishi's been spending a lot of time on pairings - namely NaruSaku - and it would be bad writing to abandon that. I wasn't saying that NaruHina or SasuSaku would be GOOD writing. Sorry for the confusion. sweat.gif

Other than that, though, I agree with this.

QUOTE
SasuSaku: Like NaruHina, it's onesided and there hasn't been any development. From the beginning, Sakura's feelings for Sasuke were represented as a school girl crush no different than Ino's or any other girl who has gone out of the way to fawn over the Uchiha brat. There is no real rhyme or reason to this potential romance. At least with Naruto, we know that his feeling for Sakura stimulate from just how similar she is to him (as we can see in chapter 3 when makes the remark "Now I know why I like Sakura so much). Lack of development is the key here, but even worse than NaruHina, there is no actual reason to it. Sakura's feelings are silly and a sign of immaturity. And to have Sasuke SOMEHOW go through a massive character shift and return those feelings by the end of this manga is equally atrocious and would have to at very least be done with a time skip.


Agreed 100%

QUOTE
I remember those just as I remember lots of hints (some expressed on this very forum) indicating that Sakura no longer had any feelings for Sasuke. Heck, I even remember people on this very board arguing that it was obvious Hinata was dead during the Pein arc or that NaruSaku was going to become canon in chapter 469-470. At the end of the day, I think we all have to realize that our arguments and rationalizations of things only go so far.


I didn't really think Hinata was dead (which it wouldn't have mattered if she was or not, since everyone got revived later anyways) and I always hoped that Sakura didn't have any feelings for Sasuke, but knew in the back of my mind that it should be resolved first before anything NaruSaku could occur.

QUOTE
That right there is putting more effort in romance than I've seen many shounen mangaka do.
Only time will tell I suppose. I'd certainly like to think that this is what Kishi is doing, but it wouldn't surprise me for a moment to see him go all "ha ha! That was all to throw you off and surprise you in the end. I really meant NaruHina/SasuSaku. ."


I actually think it's the opposite; In recent chapters, he's made people doubt the possibility of Naruto and Sakura. So NaruHina and SasuSaku seem like the red herring here. Inless he decides to cut corners and just go with it. If he does, well, I'll take back everything I said about him being a good writer.

QUOTE
Yeah, that happens alot in anime. Code Geass is a good example.


True, but in this case, the pairing somewhat determines how the plot goes along; in a nutshell, pairings are actually important here.

QUOTE
He also knows that he'll keep more fans if he pisses no particular part of the fanbase off.


He's leading us on for as long as possible. That's why I argue that all the NaruSaku drama as of late was for a good purpose. Does anyone want their pairing to just HAPPEN? (Well, dumb question, of course they would, but I think you get my point. I want NaruSaku to come out of development.)

QUOTE
Well firstly, he didn't need to kill Kakashi off like that. He could have just been severely wounded and we fans could have been left wondering whether or not he was dead. Secondly, I don't see the need to make Kakashi the Hokage. There were more certainly other routes he could take in handling this Hokage business in the current arc. If done right, I'm sure it could have turned out with Naruto being substitute Hokage for the time being . . . or he could simply keep Danzou around a bit longer rather than exposing him as a villain so early, hence allowing him to be Hokage (a Konoha civil war arc would have been interesting, but Kishi seems to want to wrap Naruto up quick, so . . .).


Again, drama. Besides, we don't know what unique purpose Kakashi might serve in the future, something that can only happen because of a character with his particular life experiences or his particular knowledge, etc. He could serve a purpose that, say, Yamato never could, or perhaps Shikamaru, and so on.

QUOTE
As for Naruto sulking, that wouldn't necessarily have to be the case. Learning that people die if you're not strong enough to protect them could have been a lesson Naruto learned during his battle with Pein. In fact, after the battle, Naruto could have boastfully said something along the lines of "AS LONG AS I LIVE, I WILL NEVER LET A SINGLE MEMBER OF THIS VILLAGE DIE EVER AGAIN!", hence strengthening his resolve, and perhaps building upon the tension of whether or not he'd be able to save Sasuke in the end (as he still considers Sasuke a member of the village)


More people dies than just Kakashi. Shizune is another example. Not to mention all of the other nameless shinobi. You've seen lately how... Not resilient Naruto has been. I'm not quite sure he could have handled it.

Besides, Kishi wrote things the way he did for a reason. He has things planned. God knows what, but everything he's done up to this point leads towards it. We can only hope it leads to NaruSaku. (Though, given the evidence... wink.gif)

QUOTE
I'd say both. First, it was too soon. Second, he went down against a couple of throwaway characters. What happened to that rivalry with Gai? And here I was hoping it would get carried over to Rock Lee, hence finally giving him a redeeming canonical moment.


Throwaway? I thought he was killed by the Raikage and the Raikage's jinchuuriki's brother? They're more important of a character than he is. Second, I'm not even sure he's dead. We've learned that in the Ninja world, things like being impaled or decapitated don't always mean death laugh.gif Third.... I never thought of it as a "rivalry," so much as them fighting each other twice upon coincidence. Kind of like how Naruto and Itachi have met more than once.

QUOTE
I agree; Sasuke is a main character. But this story shouldn't be so much about him, especially when there is SO MUCH RAW POTENTIAL elsewhere. Others may disagree with me when I say this, but I think Nagato was killed too soon. A rivalry between both him and Naruto as a running theme for many chapters would have been pretty good, given that their goals are the same. In fact (and I'm willing to give in on this one), I'd even say Nagato would have made a better final villain than Tobi. Instead, Nagato's goals, characterization and resolution was crammed into a couple of chapters. What's worse, Naruto's desire single handedly bring about world peace was simply summed up by a flashback (based on a scene which we have never seen before) rather than developed from past experiences (again, raw storyline potential which is wasted). That'd be like us never having seen Aokoji or Rob Lucci owning luffy in One Piece, only to see a quick never before seen flashback of Luffy realizing that he'll lose all of his nakama if he doesn't get stronger, hence why he decides to develop Gear 2.
QUOTE


Again, I highly disagree when people say a certain character was killed "too soon." It isn't like Kishi accidentally killed them off. It was their time. Sure, maybe they did a lot less than people were expecting them too, or they were a total disappointment, (Konan, anybody?) but they died because they need to die, for the plot. It's almost like claiming Naruto should have paid Hinata more attention. Um, no, he paid her as much attention as Kishi intended him to, nothing more, nothing less.

Though I have to agree that Nagato would have made a better antagonist laugh.gif Unlike Tobi/Madara, he didn't have that cliche "take over the world" goal; No, it was much more original. But, oh well, he wasn't the main antagonist for a reason *shrug*

#2851 Gravenimage

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Posted 28 December 2009 - 10:44 PM

QUOTE (catsi563 @ Dec 28 2009, 12:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
no not at all.

If he can survive and forgive Sasuke stabbing an arm through his chest im pretty confident he'll be able to forgive the girl hes in love with for protecting him by killing the person whose coming after him to kill him.

Hell he forgave Nagato and Nagato obliterated his entire village and was responsible for killing Jiraiya his mentor and godfather.

So no theres no way he would hate her forever,, hell I cant evens ee him hating her at all.


I agree with you that Sakura is planning to die and take Sasuke with her because she doesn't want Naruto to hate her or perhaps she wants to survive and be hated forever by Naruto because she believes she deserves to be hated by him for all the pain she gave him because of the promise of the life time and Naruto hating her its like her punishment for causing him pain. That's how I see her but at the same time killing Sasuke will protect Naruto I'm saying from Sakura's POV she wants to be hated by Naruto so she can feel pain and suffer perhaps the same way Naruto did. It's because she's hurt that she found out that all this time Naruto has been suffering because of her and hurting him was the last thing on her mind. Understanding each other's pain is one of the fundamentals of true friendship and all of the pain and hardship Naruto and Sakura are enduring will only help them get closer to one another. wink.gif

Edited by Gravenimage, 28 December 2009 - 10:46 PM.

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#2852 X105

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Posted 28 December 2009 - 11:52 PM

QUOTE
Again, I highly disagree when people say a certain character was killed "too soon." It isn't like Kishi accidentally killed them off. It was their time. Sure, maybe they did a lot less than people were expecting them too, or they were a total disappointment, (Konan, anybody?) but they died because they need to die, for the plot. It's almost like claiming Naruto should have paid Hinata more attention. Um, no, he paid her as much attention as Kishi intended him to, nothing more, nothing less.


I agree every character has its purpose. However, I do not Konan was a disappointment. I have an theory that Konan will be an important ally for Naruto in the future. There is a reason she did not die in the story.

#2853 RikutoShika

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 12:10 AM

QUOTE (Gravenimage @ Dec 28 2009, 11:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I agree with you that Sakura is planning to die and take Sasuke with her because she doesn't want Naruto to hate her or perhaps she wants to survive and be hated forever by Naruto because she believes she deserves to be hated by him for all the pain she gave him because of the promise of the life time and Naruto hating her its like her punishment for causing him pain. That's how I see her but at the same time killing Sasuke will protect Naruto I'm saying from Sakura's POV she wants to be hated by Naruto so she can feel pain and suffer perhaps the same way Naruto did. It's because she's hurt that she found out that all this time Naruto has been suffering because of her and hurting him was the last thing on her mind. Understanding each other's pain is one of the fundamentals of true friendship and all of the pain and hardship Naruto and Sakura are enduring will only help them get closer to one another. wink.gif

And how is Sakura gonna kill Sasuke?I mean,shes strong and has her ideas straight and all but...its Sasuke
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#2854 ciardha

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 12:12 AM

QUOTE (catsi563 @ Dec 28 2009, 03:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
. but Kishimoto himself stated in one of his earliest interviews that Sakura wasnt even really meant to be the main female lead. Biut as he wrote her she slowly became more and more the type of female lead he wanted.


I don't recall any interview where Kishimoto ever said Sakura wasn't the female lead. And it's obvious in chapter 1 she is. Look at the color illustration spread for chapter 1- It's team 7. And loads of symbolism in that illustration- some that doesn't come to fruition until part 2. Kakashi, Naruto and Sakura are all directly connected to the giant toad, Kakashi stands on the toad's head, Sakura rides on the toad right around where the toad's heart is, Naruto is in the middle of the smoke coming from the toad's pipe. Sakura and Kakashi's eyes are directed toward Naruto's direction. Sasuke rides alone on a hawk and looks away from everyone else with a scowl. That chapter spread illustration tells you who are the main characters. (and as I said gives clues to some things that don't even happen until part 2)

Also, everyone always leaves it with the "somewhat annoying" quote, they never mention that in early interviews Kishimoto also describes Sakura as: kind, the group peacemaker and a natural leader. He never calls her "useless" in an interview- that word comes from Sasuke, he calls Naruto dead last and Sakura useless.

Edited by ciardha, 29 December 2009 - 12:34 AM.

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#2855 RedDelicious

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 01:05 AM

QUOTE (Kenny-kun @ Dec 28 2009, 11:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It's like Harry/Hermoine all over again. I remember coming up with reasons which were "irrefutable" when up against the Harry/Ginny and Ron/Hermoine crowd, yet that didn't change the truth in the end.


I jumped in the middle of those books, before Harry/Ginny. Even I could see Ron/Hermoine coming, and so could the people making the movies.

The problem with Harry/Ginny was that Harry's feelings developed over the summer, spending a lot of time with her at the Weasley house. Unfortunately, that was about one paragraph in the book. The point is, there was opportunity for the character (Harry) to develop those feelings. If Hinata had spent more time with Naruto (off camera, so to speak), then NaruHina wouldn't be so hard to believe. It's the people who insist that it must be, despite them never spending time together, that has me shaking my head.

QUOTE (Kenny-kun @ Dec 28 2009, 11:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Pein waving a magic wand and bringing everyone back to life


Sorry to take this out on you, but I'm a little annoyed at this comment, which has come from quite a few people. Hello! One reason Pein was such a difficult foe was that he was resurrecting his own dead bodies in EVERY FIGHT HE HAD. It was not a magic wand, it was a combat tactic that was introduced early and often. The "Dragonball Z" comparison would only be valid if the villains (in that series) came back to life as often as the heroes. Pein got a lot of use out of that jutsu, so it didn't suddenly appear at the end of the fight. The only magic was that Kishi found a plausible way for Nagato to remember the optimism he had when he was training with Jiraiya, so that he would have a reason to use that jutsu for others.

#2856 firegirl

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 01:08 AM

i think sai will do another thing to their relationship since he is with sakura, he might learn iher veiw about sasuke. and he migh learnt more than we all ever knew in her veiw about sasuke.

because even in part one if u read carfully sakura was afriad of sasuke torwds the end. she didnt trust him either she trust him as a teammate but didnt trust him after the FOD scramble, so it seems to me that she may have a compleatly diffrent veiw about sauske, they of what the fandom thinks and predicts

sakura is a wild card know one ever knows what she comepleatly thinking, and thats what i found thoughout the manga. if i remeber clearly the whole KN4 chapters were all in sakura POV and we saw her feeling for naruto and is has feer for naruto safty she even have flashabcks of him. also with the desioion she shows flashbacks of naruto how she and sasuke hurt emotionaly and pshisicly.

the flashbakc sakura had of the FOD in the chuni exams shows a prim example of her being afraid of sasuke, even when he shoved th apples in to her face she seamed scaired.

so i just dont think we should reliy on just the bench secene we need more POV or a full POV because though out part one and part 2 her veiws in both boys change

and to me again that confession to sasuke seemed like a desperate last attempt to me she wasent even ready to confess

#2857 catsi563

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 01:09 AM

it was a very early interview given for one of the fan databooks.

the basics being that his original design of Sakura and her part of the story were in essence meant to be very minor parts. However as weve seen this was not the case as the story progressed and she has irrevocably become the main female lead.

Also dont forget that Sakura herself describes herself as useless though in the context of the moment she was disappointed that she could only do little things for naruto.

In acutality her usefulness to Naruto is going to go far beyond her strength and medical knowledge. It is her emotional strength which will be needed and her courage which will be most important.


QUOTE
And how is Sakura gonna kill Sasuke?I mean,shes strong and has her ideas straight and all but...its Sasuke


the point isnt how she will fight him. thats never been the point of any of the fights in the manga at all. Im sure Choji never thought how in the world am I going to beat Jirobo hes a hundred times stronger then me, nor did Lee think how he was going to beat Gaara and his perfect defence.

What is important is what she believes she will do. Also what is important is the theme of the fight. Sakura is currently going to protect Naruto she is thematically fighting for the right reasons. So this entails that her battle will end with her victorious after a fashion.

what that victory will entail has yet to be determined.
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#2858 Hopestar

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 01:15 AM

You are very negative sleep.gif come on put on a happy face the year is almost up and we got a confession from both sides. wub.gif Damn the first I respond in awhile and you are behaving like drama kings/queens!

1. Is Sakura on a suicidal mission against Sasuke?

Yes, because she knows that she isn't near Sasuke's level. The fact he has change so much from what both her and Naruto used to know and tolerate is gone. He may actually kill her in fact since he doesn't hold such a tight bond towards her like he does with Naruto. Also, Sakura is holding on to that "Sasuke" in ch.3 and will be seeking answers, unfortunately the truth will blow her mind to point where she may go through with a sucide attempt and taking Sasuke with her because of the hurt they both caused to Naruto. She doesn't want him to hate and cannot live that, there's reason why she lied to him and cover it up with a sweet confession.

2. What will Naruto do next?

At this point I don't even know anymore headscratch.gif I hope when he awakes up he'll either train or go after Sakura. Naruto has his own kitten to workout and its that he makes a decision before he confront with either Sasuke or Sakura. Gaara recited that he wants to be Hokage then as Hokage you cannot allow your personal feeliings get in the way of protecting the village. Right now he'll make an poor excuse of one if you ask me. Naruto needs to accept Sasuke's actions for the way they are and accept the love and attention he has now. The boy is too focus on what the friend he lost (i.e. Sasuke) but what about the friends he has (i.e. Sakura and the others)

3. Will Naruto have the balls to kill Sasuke?

No, Naruto is more of a lover than a fighter and will try to find some resolution before killing Sasuke. The only way I will see him going through it is unless Sasuke kills Sakura. I know its very chiche but c'mon watching the woman you love fallen dead to the man you once called friend. I think Naruto will be furious and will be kill with no mercy.

That's all what I say for until then chao! thanks.gif
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#2859 Nate River

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 02:08 AM

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If he hadn't, Kakashi would have remained dead, leaving Konoha with no potential Hokage like it needs right now. What if the plot progressed the way it is now and Kakashi was dead? Who would sub? Besides, we do NOT need Naruto sulking over his teachers again.


So what if Kakashi died? You could easily have asked why did he have to die at all only to be revived 15 seconds later?

You're making a lot of assumptions about what had to happen and what must happen. The closest thing this manga has to indispensable characters are Naruto and Sasuke.


QUOTE
Not necessarily his death, but the way it was executed.


Poor execution is as much bad writing as is stupid plot ideas and crappy characterization.

Nobody is complaining Kisame died; only that his death was incredibly stupid. The poor execution is why it was incredibly stupid. It reeked of "I don't know what to do with this character, so let's off him" syndrome.

QUOTE
The fandom's are getting cocky with this new interview... I'ts like they completely abandoned the manga just for this. But it's funny, how they obsess over it, when it doesn't even say anything positive for SasuSaku, OR NaruHina. (If anything, it's a slap to the face for Hinata.)

This fandom... It's the most irritating fandom I've ever had the displeasure of seeing...


You know, I've seen like four translations of that with no compelling reason to believe one over the other and none of them really telling us much more than we already knew.

I'd also add that did you see some of this boards when the Pro-NS translations came out? To complain of this is the pot calling the kettle black. It's the same with the databook.

I don't know about most irritating...I've heard things about the HP and Ranma fandoms that make this one look down right civil.

#2860 ciardha

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 02:16 AM

QUOTE (catsi563 @ Dec 28 2009, 08:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
it was a very early interview given for one of the fan databooks.

the basics being that his original design of Sakura and her part of the story were in essence meant to be very minor parts.


I think you might be confusing this with what I know he did say in an early interview (I have all the databooks and part 1 fanbooks)- when he first was planning the story there was no Sasuke or Sakura, just Kakashi and Naruto. His editor suggested he needed a rival male character and he created Sasuke, then immediately after that he decided there needed to be a girl too and created Sakura. So, no Sakura was a main character from her creation. And Sasuke was the only one that wasn't originally his idea.

Perhaps you heard something from a reader who is a Sakura hater who distorted the above into what you heard. I've never heard such a story from any of Kishimoto's interviews. Look at what happened with the Jump Festa answers from Kishimoto, look how the fanslators totally distorted it.

And again one only has to look at the color spread illustration for chapter 1, it shows you exactly who are the main characters- all of the original Team 7- including Sakura.

Edited by ciardha, 29 December 2009 - 02:20 AM.

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