3406 replies to this topic

[Poison_In_Your_Coffee]

In the strictest technical sense this could be thought of as true; the hidden desire of both girls was, from a selective point of view, met by Naruto. (Or would have been; the fact that the forehead kiss scene was left incomplete is why so many think we'll return to it at some later point.)

Another reason could be that it would have been a helluva lot more creepy if Naruto would have gotten to be intimate with Sakura while pretending to be someone else.

I can see how a SS/NH fan might read it that way and want to believe it. I really do. But to my eyes there's a huge problem with that interpretation because one moment is the result of Naruto's conscious desire based on his own feelings -- to kiss Sakura's forehead -- while the other is at best a kind and accidental response to Hinata's feelings.

If Naruto had ever once given us an indication that he was interested in Hinata romantically, and we had been shown that he had a conscious desire to hold her hand, then it would be similar. But that's not the case. Hinata wanting to hold Naruto's hand is not equal to Naruto wanting to kiss Sakura's forehead because one was Naruto's personal desire and the other was not.

And it's a difficult battle proving that Naruto was thinking of Hinata's romantic desires at that moment in #615, or that he was encouraging her interest in him in any way. I don't believe for a second that he was consciously paying her a romantic compliment (like his desire to kiss Sakura's forehead was), or that he was expressing a desire for her or for her to feel desirable (like his desire to kiss Sakura's forehead was.) The circumstances are completely different, and in my opinion, at least, Kishimoto's intention with the scenes really can't be compared due to context.

As I have said before, the problem I see with SS and NH is that they exclude Naruto's feelings. SS exludes Naruto entirely, and until it's proven that Naruto no longer loves Sakura, that NS has no chance of happening, Naruto is shown to move on, and moves on to Hinata specifically, then NH also excludes Naruto's feelings.

In the absence of Naruto's explicit romantic interest in Hinata, in my opinion the interpretation you suggest above -- "the moment that showed that Naruto understands Hinata without words and that by fulfilling her unspoken wish makes NH very close to canon" -- is from a strictly Hinata-centric perspective, and ignores Naruto's currently established feelings in the equation.

Just my opinion.

I see your points. I mostly meant that Kishi as the writer would have been thinking the connection to Hinata's desire to hold Naruto's hand. That Kishi intentionally made Naruto take Hinata's hand to show the readers that NH have a connection and will be canon. Just like he could have written Naruto to walk to Sakura and kiss her forehead to remind the readers that this is something Sakura hoped Sasuke to do to her and imply that maybe Naruto is the man for her. In the similar way Kishi might now show us that Naruto is a good fit for Hinata by making him act the way she wished without even realizing it.

Edit. It at least seems pretty obvious to me that Kishi made NH hold hands to fulfill Hinata's development and her desire since she specifically mentioned wanting to hold hands with him. How Kishi will follow this "fullfillment of Hinata" is a different question. Now that she has gotten what she wanted, will Naruto let go of her hand and thank her for being such a good friend and therefore imply that NH is just platonic for him? Hinata has gotten what she wanted, she could then let go of Naruto. This is certainly possible.

Edited by Poison_In_Your_Coffee, 06 January 2013 - 07:39 PM.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

Another reason could be that it would have been a helluva lot more creepy if Naruto would have gotten to be intimate with Sakura while pretending to be someone else.


I see your points. I mostly meant that Kishi as the writer would have been thinking the connection to Hinata's desire to hold Naruto's hand. That Kishi intentionally made Naruto take Hinata's hand to show the readers that NH have a connection and will be canon. Just like he could have written Naruto to walk to Sakura and kiss her forehead to remind the readers that this is something Sakura hoped Sasuke to do to her and imply that maybe Naruto is the man for her. In the similar way Kishi might now show us that Naruto is a good fit for Hinata by making him act the way she wished without even realizing it.

Just pointing out your contradiction.
the way you wrote about 615 looked like Naruto hold hinata's hand to go for a date or something like that and is comparing this with a scene where Naruto kiss Sakura's forehead complimenting her.
Even 3 chapter is a foreshadowing for NS ,showed that he loves something special that Sakura views as a bad trait.
And it's mirrored to Kushina with the red hair stuff.
In other words Kishimoto didnt forgot about chapter 3.

Again, I have covered all this. Without the crush, Sakura would have noticed Naruto much sooner, but because she was fangirling Sasuke she neglected the good things Naruto has done. Everything that has happened to stall NS from being canon and all because of Sasuke. The bench scene was because Naruto dressed up as Sasuke. The intimate of getting close because of Sasuke. The POAL was to bring Sasuke back. It's all connected.

Going back to Minato and Kushina it is everything that would have happened without the Sasuke factor in there. That's the whole point. Just imagine taking Sasuke out of Team 7 and thinking how much that would have changed.

If you want I'll create a whole summary, but I think you can piece it together from here. Just imagine plugging in the factor of Sasuke and all he has done and ad it to Minato and Kushina's story.

She was noticing Naruto even with all the fangirling, Sakura does not acknowledge the things she do for Naruto not the things Naruto does for her.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 06 January 2013 - 07:49 PM.

[TouKen4Life3g]

Now these are great posts from you guys, though it should have been in debate thread but ok. I guess I don't need to step in because you guys are killing me.

@James: Well done posts you have there. For the record, I always see Yahiko resembling to Naruto, just not the pairing itself. The pairing criteria is different from others. That said it does seem Kishi likes to demonstrate goofball love and/or man with strong will (never giving up, changing the world, etc.). It seems Sasuke types are made to be one man guy with dark ambitions or way too serious, not love material. But that's just me.

[KnS]

I quite like this. This is something I have been thinking about myself. NS has a lot of parallels with different pairings, and those pairings have different endings. MinaKushi get together and are in love. JiraTsu never happened because Tsunade loved another man. ObiRin likewise. So what path will NS follow? Will they make it like MinaKushi or end up more like JiraTsu? Which parallel they end up mirroring the most? Interesting questions.

I agree. It's very interesting. And we all keep calling them parallels when that's actually a misnomer. I don't know what would be a better word, and I suppose it doesn't matter as long as we all understand that they aren't literally parallels.

Again, I have covered all this. Without the crush, Sakura would have noticed Naruto much sooner, but because she was fangirling Sasuke she neglected the good things Naruto has done. Everything that has happened to stall NS from being canon and all because of Sasuke. The bench scene was because Naruto dressed up as Sasuke. The intimate of getting close because of Sasuke. The POAL was to bring Sasuke back. It's all connected.

I agree.

Another reason could be that it would have been a helluva lot more creepy if Naruto would have gotten to be intimate with Sakura while pretending to be someone else.

You'll get no argument from me on that. Naruto really shot himself in the foot with that stunt.

I see your points. I mostly meant that Kishi as the writer would have been thinking the connection to Hinata's desire to hold Naruto's hand. That Kishi intentionally made Naruto take Hinata's hand to show the readers that NH have a connection and will be canon. Just like he could have written Naruto to walk to Sakura and kiss her forehead to remind the readers that this is something Sakura hoped Sasuke to do to her and imply that maybe Naruto is the man for her. In the similar way Kishi might now show us that Naruto is a good fit for Hinata by making him act the way she wished without even realizing it.

Here again, I think this is a supposition based on a purely Hinata-centric point of view. As far as I'm concerned, it's more important for Kishimoto to prove that Hinata is a good fit for Naruto, not the other way around. I can't bring myself to be concerned about what's best for Hinata -- especially if it is achieved at Naruto's expense (not to mention the expense of 600+ chapters of characterization.)

Edit. It at least seems pretty obvious to me that Kishi made NH hold hands to fulfill Hinata's development and her desire since she specifically mentioned wanting to hold hands with him. How Kishi will follow this "fullfillment of Hinata" is a different question. Now that she has gotten what she wanted, will Naruto let go of her hand and thank her for being such a good friend and therefore imply that NH is just platonic for him? Hinata has gotten what she wanted, she could then let go of Naruto.

Agreed. We'll just have to wait and see, although I think there's a distinct possibility that Kishimoto will keep the water muddy for a while in order to drag out the tension and suspense.

[Poison_In_Your_Coffee]

Just to remind, though, that Kishi also has pairings other than "the goofball and tsundere". Yahiko and Konan don't really fit into that pattern. Asuma and Kurenai don't, either. Sasuke's mom and dad didn't seem to, either. And obviously, if Kishi goes NH and SS, then his main pairings will have defied that pattern, too.

Here again, I think this is a supposition based on a purely Hinata-centric point of view. As far as I'm concerned, it's more important for Kishimoto to prove that Hinata is a good fit for Naruto, not the other way around.

Bolded: Well, I'm a SS supporter and like NH, so I far from unbiased, but I think he has shown this. Especially with this very chapter. Hinata gave Naruto exactly what he needed in this chapter, inspiration and support. And she has never doubted his abilities. Naruto didn't really need to become a strong ninja or useful for the village for Hinata to see him a great guy. So if acknowledgement is what Naruto wants, Hinata has always given this to him. Though, at first, she was too shy to say so. Hinata is like a living example of how Naruto has changed people for the better.

Agreed. We'll just have to wait and see, although I think there's a distinct possibility that Kishimoto will keep the water muddy for a while in order to drag out the tension and suspense.

I'm not expecting anything pairing related from the next chapter, myself. I think we are going to see Hinata and Naruto and the rest fight and that's it. I'm hoping we will get to see Sakura's reaction to NH holding hands, but I'm trying to not get my hopes up.

Edited by Poison_In_Your_Coffee, 06 January 2013 - 07:55 PM.

[Chatte]

About JiraTsu... uhm, let's not forget Tsunade finally opened her heart, only that Jiraiya never came back.



And there was that pic where she said he won't have to put up a though for her if he gets back.

LE: found it

Edited by Chatte, 06 January 2013 - 08:10 PM.

[Poison_In_Your_Coffee]

Considering the way Dan appeared to Tsunade in the war arc, it seems to me that they were meant to be and that Jiraiya didn't really have the chance when it came to Tsunade. She could love two men, that's true, but I think that Dan was the one for her.

[Chatte]

Considering the way Dan appeared to Tsunade in the war arc, it seems to me that they were meant to be and that Jiraiya didn't really have the chance when it came to Tsunade. She could love two men, that's true, but I think that Dan was the one for her.

Funny thing...

[Poison_In_Your_Coffee]

Funny thing...

Why?

[Chatte]

Why?

I think I proved why.
And it was a way of saying funny thing.

[TouKen4Life3g]

Considering the way Dan appeared to Tsunade in the war arc, it seems to me that they were meant to be and that Jiraiya didn't really have the chance when it came to Tsunade. She could love two men, that's true, but I think that Dan was the one for her.

You know, that's always like a assumption take. I'm not doubting you, but I have no answer to this. If Tsunade were to die, well it will be the chance to see her final regrets/words from her childhood to now. It happened to Jiraiya, so why not Tsunade. I don't need this to boost NS, it's more of me wanting to know her and her thoughts.

[Poison_In_Your_Coffee]

I think I proved why.
And it was a way of saying funny thing.

No, I asked because I didn't understand what the image was supposed to mean. That Dan is like Naruto? Or what?

You know, that's always like a assumption take. I'm not doubting you, but I have no answer to this. If Tsunade were to die, well it will be the chance to see her final regrets/words from her childhood to now. It happened to Jiraiya, so why not Tsunade. I don't need this to boost NS, it's more of me wanting to know her and her thoughts.

I can see Tsunade being sad that she could never love Jiraiya back but I also can see her really looking forward to seeing her little brother and Dan again in the afterlife. Didn't Dan say something about waiting for her? If she is in love with Jiraiya, too, it might be one awkward afterlife.

Edited by Poison_In_Your_Coffee, 06 January 2013 - 08:22 PM.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

Just enjoying the ride.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 06 January 2013 - 08:21 PM.

[Chatte]

No, I asked because I didn't understand what the image was supposed to mean. That Dan is like Naruto? Or what?


I can see Tsunade being sad that she could never love Jiraiya back but I also can see her really looking forward to seeing her little brother and Dan again in the afterlife. Didn't Dan say something about waiting for her? If she is in love with Jiraiya, too, it might be one awkward afterlife.

Isn't it clear enough?

Well, sorry, but the "You won't have to put a though front for me anymore" speaks volume.

But everyone with his opinions.

Edited by Chatte, 06 January 2013 - 08:24 PM.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

Isn't it clear enough?

Well, sorry, but the "You won't have to put a though front for me anymore" speaks volume.

But everyone with his opinions.

sHe cant "she's far from unbiased".
She cant acknowledge that Jiraiya, Dan, Nawaki are both the "same person".
In other words they had the same ideals, dreams...
Dan wasnt Sasuke.

With this you conclude why jiraiya failed he failed because Dan was the same as him, he could surpass someome who's the same as you.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 06 January 2013 - 08:26 PM.

[Chatte]

sHe cant "she's far from unbiased".
She cant acknowledge that Jiraiya, Dan, Nawaki are both the "same person".
In other words they had the same ideals, dreams...
Dan wasnt Sasuke.

With this you conclude why jiraiya failed he failed because Dan was the same as him, he could surpass someome who's the same as you.

I know Dan wasn't Sasuke.
It funny becasue from Tsunade's direction, Kishi points 2 times towards the same man.
Oh, Kishi, you and your parallels

[Poison_In_Your_Coffee]

Isn't it clear enough?

Well, sorry, but the "You won't have to put a though front for me anymore" speaks volume.

But everyone with his opinions.

If I ask for clarification, then it is not clear to me. I honestly don't get why you put up that image of Tsunade remembering her little brother and Dan when hearing Naruto's words. And you are right, it does not speak volumes to me. Maybe she was willing to give him a chance and willing to go out with him. Then Dan appeared in the war arc and it seems to me that Tsunade still has feelings for him. Maybe she loves them both, but Dan, IMO, was written as the one for Tsunade if they are going to spend the entire afterlife together.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

If I ask for clarification, then it is not clear to me. I honestly don't get why you put up that image of Tsunade remembering her little brother and Dan when hearing Naruto's words. And you are right, it does not speak volumes to me. Maybe she was willing to give him a chance and willing to go out with him. Then Dan appeared in the war arc and it seems to me that Tsunade still has feelings for him. Maybe she loves them both, but Dan, IMO, was written as the one for Tsunade if they are going to spend the entire afterlife together.

Didnt someome bought a panel when she recognized her feeling for Jiraiya but it was too late?
i think on the previous page you can see that, you're just proving that you're too much biased.

Even i recognized that Sasuke cared for Sakura but not on that panel you showed but on gaara's fight, he cared for both Naruto and Sakura and Naruto got this.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 06 January 2013 - 08:30 PM.

[James S Cassidy]

She was noticing Naruto even with all the fangirling, Sakura does not acknowledge the things she do for Naruto not the things Naruto does for her.

You're still not getting it. I don't know how straight forward I can say this. Ill try one more time.

Think about every single problem NaruSaku has faced. The reasons why Naruto and Sakura are not as close right now as they should. (Don't mistake what I said here because yes, they are close, but they could be closer in terms of loving each other.) Why their pairing is not canon yet. Notice all the times when Sasuke wasn't even a thought and see how much Sakura cared about Naruto. Now, eliminate Sasuke all together. Take away everything that he influenced like the POAL, the suffering Naruto and Sakura went through. Naruto denying the love triangle to people when they asked about it. Take away all the drama that has ever happened because of Sasuke's influence on it.

I will also explain that while yes she did acknowledge Naruto eventually, she did not take it to heart as much as she could have because Sasuke was taking up space. Do you understand? A women's heart is complicated. It's might seem stupid, but it is true.

You find that most of the drama Naruto and Sakura go through was all because of Sasuke. Sure, he didn't cause every bit of drama between the two, but that being said things would have moved faster in development. As for your "She does not acknowledge her actions." Again, why? Because of Sasuke. She feels like she can't help with the Sasuke problem and because of this she felt insecure and bad about it in the earlier chapters. Now that she has accepted this and let it all up to Naruto. She will just play the support. Just as Kushina supported Minato.

If Sasuke didn't exist, none of it would be happening right now. The problem with Obito and Madara and Akatuki would exist, but everything else would be gone. No more pairing drama.

@Chatte

I have covered that as well.

@Tricksie

Please read what I typed again. I did say that they were a part 1 parallel until Obito died and went down the wrong path. That's where the parallel stops. Also, Naruto can deal with any damage done to himself, but look at how he reacts to when the damage is done to his friends. Naruto got stabbed by Sasuke yes, but what if he stabbed Sakura instead?

As for the rest, he is supposed to preserve because he is the hero. He is supposed to hold on to the faith. If he was as weak willed as Obito, then he wouldn't be the hero now would he? Since Naruto is the main character is of no question that he won't turn. Just like how we know that he will prevail in the end as he always will. I have not read a story where the hero fails and the world is destroyed. I am sure there are some out there, but it's not a common practice.

Edited by James S Cassidy, 06 January 2013 - 08:41 PM.

[KnS]

Bolded: Well, I'm a SS supporter and like NH, so I far from unbiased, but I think he has shown this. Especially with this very chapter. Hinata gave Naruto exactly what he needed in this chapter, inspiration and support.

As has been pointed out before, Hinata was a part of the inspiration and support that Naruto needed in this chapter, but she did not convince him alone or seal the deal. Kurama did. If Neji's death and Kurama's comments had not been included then Hinata could take all the credit, but she was only part of what inspired Naruto.

And she has never doubted his abilities.

I could not disagree more. All she has ever done is doubt Naruto's abilities. Even in #615 she slapped him the instant he hesitated, assuming he was going to crack. This is her pattern -- assuming Naruto can't handle the situation, over-worrying, and inserting herself into his business. This has been happening since she offered to let him cheat off her during the Chuunin Exams. I view her actions during the Pain arc the same. It's the kind of "faith" that indicates she really doesn't know who he is or what he's about because she's on the fringe of his life. That's not to say she hasn't provided some benefit through her good intentions.

Naruto didn't really need to become a strong ninja or useful for the village for Hinata to see him a great guy.

Yes, that's truly nice of her. However, it doesn't fit Naruto's personality. She says his nindo is her nindo, but she has repeatedly demonstrated that she doesn't understand him. HE wants to be a strong ninja. HE wants to be useful for the village. Thinking of him as a proud failure and accepting him as such is a lovely sentiment, but from everything we know about Naruto that's not the kind of support he wants.

In my opinion, the fact that Hinata doesn't actually know Naruto, or know what he's like to live with or work with, and the fact that she doesn't seem to have a clear picture of his motivation, calls into question exactly what her affection has been built on.

Hinata is like a living example of how Naruto has changed people for the better.

This I can agree with, and have said so before. However, I think we probably believe it means different things.

Edited by KnS, 06 January 2013 - 08:36 PM.