3406 replies to this topic

[Poison_In_Your_Coffee]

Relating to my previous post I'm now wondering what is the general feeling at the moment? Does NS parallel ObiRin or not?

Edited by Poison_In_Your_Coffee, 06 January 2013 - 05:08 PM.

[mone_]

I feel like you are trying to do some pre-emptive damage control. I feel like you are setting Obito's love for Rin as something obsessive and selfish so just in case Obito *does* declare that NH resembles ObiRin, you now have a good excuse to slam Hinata as selfish and obsessed with Naruto, "just like Obito with Rin".

I'm SURE it was not the reason she said all that funny you thought that, though.

[Poison_In_Your_Coffee]

I'm SURE it was not the reason she said all that funny you thought that, though.

Was I out of line? Was that too offensive? Let me know if it was. I was honestly a little hesitant to post that.

But yes, I do think that there is now some damage control going on in this forum. Many have been going on and on how NS parallels ObiRin and will be canon because of that. Now it seems that Hinata is holding Naruto's hand and Obito has a reason to think that they are in love. Obito might now be targeting Hinata instead of Sakura and therefore imply that he thinks that Naruto is in love with Hinata. I think some of you are trying to undermine Obito's love for Rin (like "he was never in love with her at all, just obsessed!") so you can use that against NH when/if necessary. If Obito calls Sakura Naruto's Rin, how many of you will still think that Obito's love for Rin was selfish and obsessive?

Edited by Poison_In_Your_Coffee, 06 January 2013 - 05:21 PM.

[shadow_Uzumaki]

I think it's possible that Hiruzen was hinting at Kakashi's relationship with Obito. I could see Obito being the hyperactive type. Sadly, there relationship wasn't quite good but that's just another plothole. Remember, Kakashi never passed any kids so he couldn't have tutored anyone.

And wow, I forgot about Minato's Senju bloodline. It's been so long that I forgot because Kishi has made no mention of it. Guess it'll come out in the long run during the fight with Sasuke since they're "destined" to fight




See, I've always had a problem with that. Especially after seeing Madara fight Kages and seeing the revealing of past characters such as the last Raikage and all the old kages. It just seems like this entire current generation is now as "talented" (keyword is not strong) as the last generation. Sure, Naruto is beastly strong and Sasuke is strong. But where's the talent. Neither two, not even Sasuke, has invented any jutsu. Not of the Konoha 7 has invented jutsu. They've only built on top of the past jutsus which is, by the way, very good. But no talents in terms of creating jutsu. Made they don't need to, but it just seems like a big mis-step in power.

It's Kushina who has a Senju bloodline, Minato doesn't have Senju in his blood at all.

You're forgetting that the next generation have little to no combat experience compared to the battle-hardened veterans. This is the first big war they've been in, and many of them are just starting their ninja career.

Wasn't Kirin a technique Sasuke invented? Naruto modified the Rasengan in his own way and then finished it. He also managed to achieve perfect Sage mode without relying on the Toads AND with the handicap of the Kyuubi preventing his fusion with said Toads. He also has brilliant tactical skills. Sakura has the talent to become the next, great medic-nin. Shikamaru is a brilliant strategist. Those are brilliant feats despite being mere teenagers. Not as brilliant as Kakash rising to Jounin level at an even earlier age, but that was during war.

Naruto and Sasuke's talent lies in actual combat, not creating new, awesome techniques. You said it yourself, they're strong, in the same vein as Bee is a powerhouse. They don't have to be like Minato with his genius in creating new techniques.

It's just like Bruce Lee said "I fear not the man who has practiced ten thousand kicks once. But I fear the man who has practiced one kick ten thousand times." That quote essentially describes how Naruto's become such an expert with Kage Bunshin and the Rasengan.

Edited by shadow_Uzumaki, 06 January 2013 - 05:20 PM.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

ense, and others require a huge suspension of belief to make them possible.

(btw - I forgot, it's Tsunade who's from the Senju line, not Minato. And she's related to Naruto distantly through the Uzimaki clan.)


I'm not focusing on the person giving the love, instead I'm talking about the one who is the unwilling recipient.

Obito's love for Rin is much more like Sakura's for Sasuke and Hinata's for Naruto, than the mutual Naruto-Sakura love.

Obito can do anything he wants and say it's out of love for Rin. But that doesn't change the fact that Rin is a non-participating party here. His actions are based on selfish motivations, wrapped in the excuse of love.

I think not because of the flashbacks showing Rin, rin did almost the same things as Sakura did to Naruto, it's show her supporting Obito, and he supporting her.

http://i19.mangaread...uto-3556921.jpg
http://i4.mangareade...uto-3556929.jpg
http://i24.mangaread...uto-3556931.jpg
http://i16.mangaread...uto-3556941.jpg

Obito and Rin were mutual as Naruto and Sakura, the problem with obito is the same as Naruto, promises, Look at Naruto, Obito give his life to protect Rin, and he was going to protect her, he saw his best friend killing Rin and the promise he could not keep.
Obito was not obssessive the flashbacks didnt showed it, the thing is Obito lose everything and he had no reason to live anymore so Madara's plan become a beacon of hope to him.
Despite loving her his focus was of becoming stronger, surpass Kakashi and become hokage someday.

Obi/RIn resembles Naru/Saku, Obito already recognized Naruto as Obito.
Unless kishi do some asspull of course.

Again Obito is not selfish, and never was you may hate his reason because the fact is he failed, he failed to protect the girl he loves, he's like Naruto who failed, he's not selfish, he knows that he will die even if the plan's succeed.
If he was selfish he would try seek vengeance on Kakashi, Obito does not care about the world anymore, he wants to change the world but unfortunately he lose hope, he thinks that Madara is right and that this will happen over and over again.
He said that even if he got defeated someome will try again, that war will still going on, he said to Naruto that the alliance will be no more after the war, and the very same people that Naruto is fighting alongside will fight against each other on the future leading to an infinite loop.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 06 January 2013 - 05:30 PM.

[tricksie]

Was I out of line? Was that too offensive? Let me know if it was. I was honestly a little hesitant to post that.

But yes, I do think that there is now some damage control going on in this forum. Many have been going on and on how NS parallels ObiRin and will be canon because of that. Now it seems that Hinata is holding Naruto's hand and Obito has a reason to think that they are in love. Obito might now be targeting Hinata instead of Sakura and therefore imply that he thinks that Naruto is in love with Hinata. I think some of you are trying to undermine Obito's love for Rin (like "he was never in love with her at all, just obsessed!") so you can use that against NH when/if necessary. If Obito calls Sakura Naruto's Rin, how many of you will still think that Obito's love for Rin was selfish and obsessive?

Not offended

I'm saying that I don't think Sakura is Naruto's Rin at all. In fact, the more I think about it, the more I think it might be a ruse parallel. A red herring.

I'm comparing it to SS and NH in that they are also one-sided, unreciprocated loves (meaning Sakura to Sasuke and Hinata to Naruto).

And I'm saying the comparison of the two teams and the Naruto/Sakura/Sasuke dynamic is very muddied, because in a few ways young Naruto is like the young Obito. But as a grown man, Naruto is like the adult Kakashi. So I think the love parallel is equally twisted.

Yes it's similar, but I think it's something to be surpassed, rather than to be achieved or imitated. I think it's important for a grown Naruto to grow out of his childish adoration of Sakura, and finally recognize her love in adult terms. Just as she has done for him.

Also, I've thought this all along, not as a sense of damage control. When I respond, I'm responding to you, not the whole of the NH fandom. So if you are responding to me, I would appreciate it if you keep out the wide sweeping statements about the NS fandom as well. That's the stuff that tends to ruffle feathers.

In answer to your last question, yeah, I do think Obito's love is selfish and one-sided. And I think recognizing that will be part of his redemption. But I know not everyone on here thinks that way....

Funny enough, I have a crack theory that this has all been a Genjutsu of some sort since Naruto met Itachi for the first time in Part 2. It was so far out there that it is similar to the idea that Naruto has been in a coma this whole time and the nly way for him to wake up from it is to defeat Sasuke aka himself.

I thought of turning it into some kind of CreepyPasta Naruto story.

I know. It'd be a massive troll, right?! But Kishi is definitely toying with the idea since it's included in this plot and was the entire basis for the RtN.

I really don't think he'd do it. That would be worse than Pain's giant "reset" button. But by having it in the plot, the possibility is out there, no matter how small or unlikely. (So it's fun to think about and take to extremes!)

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

Not offended

I'm saying that I don't think Sakura is Naruto's Rin at all. In fact, the more I think about it, the more I think it might be a ruse parallel. A red herring.

I'm comparing it to SS and NH in that they are also one-sided, unreciprocated loves (meaning Sakura to Sasuke and Hinata to Naruto).

And I'm saying the comparison of the two teams and the Naruto/Sakura/Sasuke dynamic is very muddied, because in a few ways young Naruto is like the young Obito. But as a grown man, Naruto is like the adult Kakashi. So I think the love parallel is equally twisted.

Yes it's similar, but I think it's something to be surpassed, rather than to be achieved or imitated. I think it's important for a grown Naruto to grow out of his childish adoration of Sakura, and finally recognize her love in adult terms. Just as she has done for him.

Also, I've thought this all along, not as a sense of damage control. When I respond, I'm responding to you, not the whole of the NH fandom. So if you are responding to me, I would appreciate it if you keep out the wide sweeping statements about the NS fandom as well. That's the stuff that tends to ruffle feathers.

In answer to your last question, yeah, I do think Obito's love is selfish and one-sided. And I think recognizing that will be part of his redemption. But I know not everyone on here thinks that way....

I think for some reason we have to agree to disagree
http://i19.mangaread...uto-3556921.jpg
http://i4.mangareade...uto-3556929.jpg
http://i24.mangaread...uto-3556931.jpg
http://i16.mangaread...uto-3556941.jpg
http://i24.mangaread...uto-3556945.jpg

His main objective was not rin and it's showed on those panels.
http://i24.mangaread...uto-3556931.jpg
And it was reciprocated, it's show her supporting him, and Obito is not selfish, he has no desires of self gain on Madara's plan, it's so true that he has to die for the plan succeed, Obito is right on some parts the things that happened to him, happened to other people in the past he was struck in a loop, he want to break it but after losing everything, his best friend "betrayed him" and rin died "breaking his promise to protect her" he found himself with no place in this world.

He gave his life for both Kakashi and Rin, he tried to went alone to save her, while Kakashi only bothered with the mission, you may call him anything but he's not selfish.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 06 January 2013 - 05:50 PM.

[Nate River]

More wandering trains of thought.... So, I was thinking that Chapter 615 seemed sooooo fanficcy, so unreal...that what if Obito is already beginning his genjutsu? What if Hinata is seeing what she wants to see? Not necessarily Neji's death, but the remedy of it by the fruition of something she has wanted for so long. Holding Naruto's hand and standing beside him.

What if the genjutsu is already slowly being set in motion? And this Hinata-centric chapter is part of that? In the beginning it's reality, but by the end maybe the illusion was slowly seeping in.

Just a wild thought, but still.... What if everyone slowly started thinking that they didn't want anyone else to die, and that if they just went home, everything would be as they wanted it to be...?

And then, just like in RtN, Sakura would be the only one left on the battlefield untouched, knowing everything around her was wrong.

Anyway, just a thought based on how unexpected this chapter end up being. The images at the end were tailor-made to Hinata's real-life hopes and dreams, that seeing them almost seemed surreal.

It would sure be fun from a shipping standpoint but......

It would seem odd to me. Why pick Neji and Hinata as part of the genjutsu? They don't seem like obvious inclusions (at least compared to anyone else) and it would be such a cop-out to avoid killing Neji.

[sushi.]

I get what you're saying tricksie, but I always thought Obito just completely lost it when Rin died. That he was too young and immature, he did not have the mental stability to deal with Rin's death. Maybe ObiRin would parallell NS more if the tragedy didn't happen. Now, I wonder what would've happen to Naruto if the same happened to him and Sakura when they were 12.

And who's to say Rin will be his girlfriend in the genjutsu world? Maybe he'll let her choose, but give her the life he thinks she wants, that is to grow up. I still think it's selfish to bring her back like that- I remember very well a scene in part 1 where Jiraiya told Tsunade you should dishonour people's deaths by bringing them back because you miss them. He was talking about Dan and Nawaki, after Orochimaru offered to bring them back if she healed his arms. Unfortunately, I don't remember the chapter.

Edited by sushi., 06 January 2013 - 05:54 PM.

[Poison_In_Your_Coffee]

I'm saying that I don't think Sakura is Naruto's Rin at all. In fact, the more I think about it, the more I think it might be a ruse parallel. A red herring.

I don't really disagree with the first part. As long as definition is "Rin = someone important whose death will drive the mourner into desperation". Neji took the role of Rin in chapters 614 & 615 by being the one to die and make Naruto question himself to the point of almost turning to the dark side. But where I disagree is that NejiNaruto parallels ObiRin. Neji was "Rin" only in the sense of dying and making Naruto despair. He doesn't otherwise fit the role of Rin and her relationship with Obito. I feel the same way about Hinata. If Obito targets her and makes the comparision with Rin, I don't think this will make NH similar to ObiRin *as a relationship*.

I'm comparing it to SS and NH in that they are also one-sided, unreciprocated loves (meaning Sakura to Sasuke and Hinata to Naruto).

I feel that, while you are not wrong in that SS and NS are both one-sided, this is still a superficial comparision. Because if Naruto in the next chapter confesses his love for Hinata, that alone elevates NH right out of the onesided love. The parallels with NS and ObiRin are deeper and not so easily changed.

And I'm saying the comparison of the two teams and the Naruto/Sakura/Sasuke dynamic is very muddied, because in a few ways young Naruto is like the young Obito. But as a grown man, Naruto is like the adult Kakashi. So I think the love parallel is equally twisted.

I have noticed that, too. Sasuke in the beginning parallels the young Kakashi, and later switches to parallel adult Obito. So while it is possible to parallel Sasuke with Obito and Sakura with Rin, I don't think it is possible to really parallel ObiRin and SS *as relationships*. SS lacks too many elements of ObiRin. The only time we see anything similar to ObiRin, is this: http://www.mangapand...chapter-55.html. Sasuke gets angry when Sakura is hurt and almost unleashes his dark powers. The differences are many, anyway, though. The main difference is that, for Sasuke, that was a one time thing, his ultimate reasons for going to the dark side have nothing to do with Sakura. For Obito, Rin is the main motivation. Sakura herself is not driven into despair and to the dark side after losing Sasuke; in fact, the opposite, since his leaving she has devoted herself to helping her village and becoming a medic etc. So Sakura can't take the role of Obito, either.

Also, I've thought this all along, not as a sense of damage control. When I respond, I'm responding to you, not the whole of the NH fandom. So if you are responding to me, I would appreciate it if you keep out the wide sweeping statements about the NS fandom as well. That's the stuff that tends to ruffle feathers.

Sure thing, I won't do it again.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

I get what you're saying tricksie, but I always thought Obito just completely lost it when Rin died. That he was too young and immature, he did not have the mental stability to deal with Rin's death. Maybe ObiRin would parallell NS more if the tragedy didn't happen. Now, I wonder what would've happen to Naruto if the same happened to him and Sakura when they were 12.

And who's to say Rin will be his girlfriend in the genjutsu world? Maybe he'll let her choose, but give her the life he thinks she wants, that is to grow up. I still think it's selfish to bring her back like that- I remember very well a scene in part 1 where Jiraiya told Tsunade you should dishonour people's deaths by bringing them back because you miss them. He was talking about Dan and Nawaki, after Orochimaru offered to bring them back if she healed his arms. Unfortunately, I don't remember the chapter.

Yeah i would wanted to see how Naruto would deal if Sasuke killed Sakura on the kage's summit arc.
The thing is things that happened with Obito didnt happened with Naruto.
But their set-up is the same, Obito was focused on surpassing Kakashi and becoming hokage, it's show him doing stuff in front of Rin to impress her but Naruto did the same stuff on part 1.
@sushi Obito has to die in order for the "plan" to suceed how can he control the genjutsu world if he's dead.

I have noticed that, too. Sasuke in the beginning parallels the young Kakashi, and later switches to parallel adult Obito. So while it is possible to parallel Sasuke with Obito and Sakura with Rin, I don't think it is possible to really parallel ObiRin and SS *as relationships*. SS lacks too many elements of ObiRin. The only time we see anything similar to ObiRin, is this: http://www.mangapand...chapter-55.html. Sasuke gets angry when Sakura is hurt and almost unleashes his dark powers. The differences are many, anyway, though. The main difference is that, for Sasuke, that was a one time thing, his ultimate reasons for going to the dark side have nothing to do with Sakura. For Obito, Rin is the main motivation. Sakura herself is not driven into despair and to the dark side after losing Sasuke; in fact, the opposite, since his leaving she has devoted herself to helping her village and becoming a medic etc. So Sakura can't take the role of Obito, either.

I re-read this chapter but there's no proof that he become this way because he see Sakura struggling it's show him being possessed by the cursed mark since he was awakening.
http://i40.mangapand...uto-1565878.jpg

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 06 January 2013 - 06:06 PM.

[Poison_In_Your_Coffee]

I get what you're saying tricksie, but I always thought Obito just completely lost it when Rin died. That he was too young and immature, he did not have the mental stability to deal with Rin's death. Maybe ObiRin would parallell NS more if the tragedy didn't happen.

Another thing could be that Obito did not have any friends supporting him. Hinata made sure that Naruto got over the shock of Neji's death. If Obito had his friends, team and family by his side when Rin died reminding him of what is important, maybe he would not have lost it like that. I can't remember this very well, but didn't Naruto also receive some help from Iruka and Shikamaru (?) after Jiraiya died? His friends supported him at that time, too.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

Another thing could be that Obito did not have any friends supporting him. Hinata made sure that Naruto got over the shock of Neji's death. If Obito had his friends, team and family by his side when Rin died reminding him of what is important, maybe he would not have lost it like that. I can't remember this very well, but didn't Naruto also receive some help from Iruka and Shikamaru (?) after Jiraiya died? His friends supported him at that time, too.

Obito's panels were focused on his relationship with his team, the same could be done with Naruto.
And it would tell almost 90% of all his story with only Sakura, Sasuke and Kakashi.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 06 January 2013 - 06:08 PM.

[tricksie]

It would sure be fun from a shipping standpoint but......

It would seem odd to me. Why pick Neji and Hinata as part of the genjutsu? They don't seem like obvious inclusions (at least compared to anyone else) and it would be such a cop-out to avoid killing Neji.

Hey...if Kishi is allowed massive plot holes in his 10+ years internationally published manga, you've got to let me have my plot holes in my poorly thought out two-minute tangent while waiting for the coffee to brew! lol

No, killing Neji wouldn't make sense. Unless his death was to be used as a lure. Like "He's dead in this awful world, but look over here! He's still alive in this world!" But that's just stuff and nonsense too.

I go back to my original thought, that the whole ending was surreal, Hinata holding his hand, thinking about how warm it is and how safe Naruto makes her, while Neji's body is growing cold right behind her heels.

That kind of suspension of trauma is really squarely in the land of fanfiction. Hence my thougths about genjutsu while staring into my empty coffee cup.

[Poison_In_Your_Coffee]

I re-read this chapter but there's no proof that he become this way because he see Sakura struggling it's show him being possessed by the cursed mark since he was awakening.
http://i40.mangapand...uto-1565878.jpg

He goes on to ask who hurt Sakura and then progresses to hurt those who hurt her. He only stops after Sakura begs him to and hugs him. He is giving in to the cursed seal power, sure, and uses it to avenge Sakura's ill treatment.

http://www.mangapand...chapter-56.html
http://www.mangapand...chapter-56.html

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

He goes on to ask who hurt Sakura and then progresses to hurt those who hurt her. He only stops after Sakura begs him to and hugs him. He is giving in to the cursed seal power, sure, and uses it to avenge Sakura's ill treatment.

http://www.mangapand...chapter-56.html
http://www.mangapand...chapter-56.html

He didnt asked anything, the panel you bought already showed him being possessed without even looking at her.
You're doing an assumption.
the only thing that he said "Protect Sakura" was on Gaara's fight.
When he said to Naruto protect her.

"http://i10.mangapanda.com/naruto/56/naruto-1565882.jpg"
"Sasuke... your body."
"Dont worry"

As a side note obito did had friends besides Rin and Kakashi
http://i40.mangaread...uto-3556943.jpg

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 06 January 2013 - 06:15 PM.

[naruto-z]

Hey...if Kishi is allowed massive plot holes in his 10+ years internationally published manga, you've got to let me have my plot holes in my poorly thought out two-minute tangent while waiting for the coffee to brew! lol

No, killing Neji wouldn't make sense. Unless his death was to be used as a lure. Like "He's dead in this awful world, but look over here! He's still alive in this world!" But that's just stuff and nonsense too.

I go back to my original thought, that the whole ending was surreal, Hinata holding his hand, thinking about how warm it is and how safe Naruto makes her, while Neji's body is growing cold right behind her heels.

That kind of suspension of trauma is really squarely in the land of fanfiction. Hence my thougths about genjutsu while staring into my empty coffee cup.

I hope when Madara and Obito finally use the jutsu that it won't be some uncreative straightforward entrance. I don't want it to be like everyone in the army staring at the moon and BOOM genjutsu'd!

I'd rather have some unpredictability in there

[Poison_In_Your_Coffee]

I go back to my original thought, that the whole ending was surreal, Hinata holding his hand, thinking about how warm it is and how safe Naruto makes her, while Neji's body is growing cold right behind her heels.

There is something related to this I've been thinking but haven't been able to phrase in any way that actually makes sense outside my own head. But isn't the NH handholding + Hinata's unstated desire to hold Naruto's hand very similar to your theory of NS forehead kiss + Sakura's unstated desire to have someone kiss her forehead? Both girls state that desire only to themselves. Naruto, without knowing that, has made them come true for both of them. Except with Sakura, he never gets so far as to kiss her, just states that he would like to do so. I guess what I'm trying to say is that this is one reason the handholding is so powerful moment for us who want NH to be canon. Because, in a way, it was our "forehead kiss" moment. It was the moment that showed that Naruto understands Hinata without words and that by fulfilling her unspoken wish makes NH very close to canon the same way Naruto would have made NS very close to canon by going to Sakura and kissing her forehead.

Does that make any sense at all?

[TouKen4Life3g]

Funny, I always thought he asked her who hurt her in order to test this newfound power, but yeah, it can be that too. Well, in the end, he turned to the dark side because he wanted power to kill Itachi and surpass Naruto. Well, not surpass but keep Naruto placed in #2, which for Naruto it's like "If you're not first, you're last." Shame, I would have give SS chance but after that, Sasuke only thinks about curse seal and Naruto's potential of surpassing him. The last interaction was when Sasuke shove her aside to stop caring for him and made her cry, which I'm glad Naruto got upset. Unnecessary and uncalled for. But that's just me.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

There is something related to this I've been thinking but haven't been able to phrase in any way that actually makes sense outside my own head. But isn't the NH handholding + Hinata's unstated desire to hold Naruto's hand very similar to your theory of NS forehead kiss + Sakura's unstated desire to have someone kiss her forehead? Both girls state that desire only to themselves. Naruto, without knowing that, has made them come true for both of them. Except with Sakura, he never gets so far as to kiss her, just states that he would like to do so. I guess what I'm trying to say is that this is one reason the handholding is so powerful moment for us who want NH to be canon. Because, in a way, it was our "forehead kiss" moment. It was the moment that showed that Naruto understands Hinata without words and that by fulfilling her unspoken wish makes NH very close to canon the same way Naruto would have made NS very close to canon by going to Sakura and kissing her forehead.

Does that make any sense at all?

Hinata didnt had any physical desire towards Naruto or herself, like mean Naruto didnt made any statement about her appearance, yo'ure comparing a scene with no romantic appeal, with a forehead scene that requires a statement from Naruto, like "your forehead is beautiful", in means to compare Naruto should have said "her hand is so soft and calm". in other words Naruto had to show a romantic intention on the holdhanding which is not the case.
Naruto kiss Sakura's forehead is canon not close, because it requires a romantic appeal for him.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 06 January 2013 - 06:21 PM.