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#261 shisui

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Posted 19 June 2014 - 02:58 AM

I have no words for what happened this chapter.
 



#262 tekopi

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Posted 19 June 2014 - 03:01 AM

I have no words for what happened this chapter.

Nothing's happened. Just some history lessons and a mother that is too obsessed and twisted.


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#263 shisui

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Posted 19 June 2014 - 03:03 AM

Kishi shifted the blame from the Uchiha to Black Zetsu. Kaguya is a horrible enemy, she can't be called a villain. Sakura and Kakashi barely appear, just footnotes on some page. Tell me, what's there to like about this chapter?



#264 Nate River

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Posted 19 June 2014 - 03:16 AM

Wow, you guys are so quick just hang somebody for one mistake. A man could do a thousand goods deeds, but one mistake is enough to condemn him.


If the evil deed is serious enough, yes. What number of good deeds would it take to erase the Holocaust or Mao's Cultural Revolution? I'm sure there is some number than came make up for the 30 million dead Chinese.

Besides, I'm not hanging him. It's you who are excusing an unjustifiable act. There was no good reason for him to do what he did to Sasuke. He even admits his rational for doing so was, in part, wanting to pay penance to the clan. He wanted an Uchiha to off him for the slaughter. Sorry little bro, I'm going to ruin your life so I feel better about what I did.

Woo. Hoo.

God, that line made him sound like a selfish prick.
 

Itachi never had that much of a choice now did he? He was kind of a double agent that had to keep up an appearance so as to stay with him the group he was spying on. It would look really suspicious if all of a sudden he just went extremely soft on his brother.


Uh....he totally had a choice in telling Sasuke to lead a life of hate and then returning to do it again. He also chose to come back and do it further then the Third died. He even broke his brother's arm. Nobody made him do any of that

The problem with your argument is that it's all supposition and totally not what Itachi actually uses in explaining why he did it. He explains why. And this wasn't it.
 

I also like the double standard on this logic where it doesn't absolve Sasuke of his crimes, but apparently he is to blame for Sasuke being the selfish jerk that he is? What ever happened to your "people should be responsible for their own actions?" If that is the case, then Sasuke turning into the man that he is now should not have been affected at all by Itachi's doing. Sasuke could have easily ignored his brother. Sasuke could have easily stayed in Konoha and chose to live a peaceful life....like Itachi wanted him to.


I'm glad you like them since you engage in one of your own. Too bad I didn't use one. Sasuke should be held accountable for his choices, I said as much. That Sasuke could have ignored those instructions doesn't somehow absolve Itachi is pushing him in that direction. You're the one who thinks only Sasuke should be held to account.

Itachi wanted him to live a peaceful life? Hahahaha! He made has said as much to himself, but when it came time act he pushed him in the exact opposite directions. So, I don't give a crap if Itachi deep down wanted this. His good intentions mean nothing when he choose to push Sasuke into a life of revenge and hate.
 

Should we also blame Sasuke's father and how his upbringing on how he treated his son like crap growing up? Should we blame the clan for having these high standards and not teaching their clan the values of it all?


Perhaps so. The manga doesn't talk about their direct influence on Sasuke the way it does Itachi. If given the foundation I'd be willing to show them the underside of a bus.
 

People make their own choices. We can only be influenced by other people if we let them influence us and just as you blame Obito for him siding with Madara, then you should blame Sasuke for allowing himself to succumb to his emotions of revenge. Also, funny how when you learn the truth about Itachi and what he wanted for Sasuke....Sasuke still does the opposite and doesn't listen at all. It took a story from Hashirama to convince him not to destroy Konoha. So if Sasuke wants to be like Hitler and enslaved Konoha now, should we blame Hashirama then?


Who is excusing Sasuke of anything?

(1) Hashirama didn't tell him to do anything. Itachi actively pushed Sasuke to seek revenge on Itachi when Sasuke was 6.

(2) Your argument boils down to the idea that no matter how much influence I put on a person to do something I am totally blameless if they act in accordance with that. It's a novel idea especially when the pushing is being done to a child. Itachi fed that crap to a six year old.

(3) Of course, Sasuke is responsible for his conduct, especially now, but that Sasuke is responsible doesn't mean Itachi lacks blame nor does that make what he did okay. You accuse me of double standards, but what you do is worse. He treated the kid brother he so loved like kitten from about age six on. All I can say is that at least Itachi didn't cry over it because he'd have no right to.
 

I don't see it like that because of the position Itachi was in and what he thought was the good choice of action. He wanted Sasuke to hate him so he didn't hate Konoha for what they did. He purposely wanted to take the blame so Sasuke would stay in Konoha and support it. See Konoha as the good guys, but Sasuke is just too stubborn. So Itachi influenced Sasuke by...not influencing him?


Again, you fail to demonstrate why this position required him to do what he did to Sasuke. Even Itachi admits it was wrong.
 

Sasuke made his own choices and it was his choice alone. Just as every other character made their choices as well.  There is no way any person can say that one action can cause the downfall of another. Hell, in Trigun they even play with this idea where Vash let the main villain go and another character blamed him because she believed Vash was the reason her father treated her mother so badly, but upon further inspection if Vash stopped him before and didn't let him go...then she never would have been born in the first place. There is more to it than just saying one can influence another because you never know what the outcome could be.


I'm not sure I see the point of this. Are you suggesting that Sasuke would have been better off if Itachi didn't treat six-old Sasuke like crap?
 

You can simplify it if you really want to like that, but Sasuke made his own choices.


Of course, he did. But he should be held to account for them, but Itachi should be held to account for his as well.
 

Unless you really want to get technical, then Kaguya is to blame for it all. Kaguya who basically forced the two clans to fight and altered things in the clan to better suit her needs. If her Black Zetsu never altered the tablet, then the Senju and Uchiha war would not have happened in the first place.

So I guess all the blame is on Kaguya.


Yeah, I'm considering chugging a case of Draino in the hopes that I can forget that disgusting exercise in blame shifting.

Of course, what your comment implies is a dishonest and massive distortion of my argument.

I just thought of something. If Madara sacrificed his eye to revive himself back to life, how the hell did he get that eye back? Unless he somehow used Hashirama's DNA cells and the Gedo Mazo to literally rejuvenate his eye, but...

Did Madara once again break logic? How did he implant both of his eyes in Nagato when he sacrificed one to revive himself? Reason why I am having problem just saying "Well, he used Hashirama's DNA" is because it never have been shown that other people have been able to rejuvenate limbs just by adding that DNA. Even Madara said it didn't work at first. Also, merely transplanting another Uchiha's eye doesn't do anything because as shown he didn't just turn Obito's eye into a Rinnegan.


Indeed. What happened makes no sense at all. I disagree about breaking logic though. You can't break what's not there in the first place.

#265 tekopi

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Posted 19 June 2014 - 03:19 AM

Kishi shifted the blame from the Uchiha to Black Zetsu. Kaguya is a horrible enemy, she can't be called a villain. Sakura and Kakashi barely appear, just footnotes on some page. Tell me, what's there to like about this chapter?

I don't have anything to say about the blame shifting thing. But I seems to recall that in the beginning of Obito/Madara/Juubi Arc, Kakashi & Sakura barely made into the panel at that time too. But when it reach to the important plot buildup, they appear and take away most of the screen time (this implies to Kakashi part). Sakura has yet to reach her shining moment just like him, it's not that because I'm optimist or anything, it's because the story seems to show it that way. She does have her time, but not 'that important part' time. The chapter is still in the beginning of the arc. And by far, Kishimoto's early arc development will always receive the bad light in the beginning it seems.


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#266 Nate River

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Posted 19 June 2014 - 03:24 AM

Kishi shifted the blame from the Uchiha to Black Zetsu. Kaguya is a horrible enemy, she can't be called a villain. Sakura and Kakashi barely appear, just footnotes on some page. Tell me, what's there to like about this chapter?


Don't forget the Madara asspull extravaganza. It's great how being dead is an impediment to nothing. The Uchiha are so awesome even their corpses can use ninjutsu.

#267 Lid

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Posted 19 June 2014 - 03:29 AM

The chapter is still in the beginning of the arc. And by far, Kishimoto's early arc development will always receive the bad light in the beginning it seems.

 

This is a new arc? How can this be a new arc when the previous had no clear conclusion? As far as I'm concerned this is still the same arc, it's just that every time Naruto and company have gotten close to defeating the big villain, Kishi just changes who the villain is. 


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#268 tekopi

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Posted 19 June 2014 - 03:39 AM

 

This is a new arc? How can this be a new arc when the previous had no clear conclusion? As far as I'm concerned this is still the same arc, it's just that every time Naruto and company have gotten close to defeating the big villain, Kishi just changes who the villain is. 

It's pretty much seems like that. But I have to admit that I pitied Madara since his arc was end brutally and abruptly thanks to the Kaguya's Revival. But for the villain shifting part, we can say that it comes from the bigger arc, The Arc of Deception. Kishi just slice it to smaller part and make it a loooong story.


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#269 Atheck

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Posted 19 June 2014 - 03:44 AM

Kishi shifted the blame from the Uchiha to Black Zetsu. Kaguya is a horrible enemy, she can't be called a villain. Sakura and Kakashi barely appear, just footnotes on some page. Tell me, what's there to like about this chapter?

 

Well there's more plot relevancy for Black Zetsu. The expectations for his character were nil before he upstaged Obito during his attempted Rinne Tensei. Who could have anticipated that the guy who played camcorder for Akatsuki, who was taken out by a no-name bodyguard of the Mizukage, would have such an important role later on? His fans and enthusiasts must be overjoyed to see him having so much leverage over the events of the manga. Zetsu has been underestimated for so long. 



#270 TouKen4Life3g

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Posted 19 June 2014 - 03:46 AM

 

This is a new arc? How can this be a new arc when the previous had no clear conclusion? As far as I'm concerned this is still the same arc, it's just that every time Naruto and company have gotten close to defeating the big villain, Kishi just changes who the villain is. 

I think the best way to say it is chapter of the arc, even though Kishi never really point out, but I guess you can say we pulling USA way of pinpointing arcs in DBZ like Namek has many arcs within.



#271 Sakura~

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Posted 19 June 2014 - 04:29 AM

I always wanted Sakura to get involved with the whole kaguya reincarnation thing but damn you Kishi.

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#272 narusaku256

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Posted 19 June 2014 - 04:48 AM

I always wanted Sakura to get involved with the whole kaguya reincarnation thing but damn you Kishi.

Have patience and she will :D. She is THE queen. No one steals the show from her. Not even the king! She is down for a moment doesn't mean she won't bounce back. She will, just have patience :D.

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#273 redrose3443

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Posted 19 June 2014 - 05:59 AM

I dislike the fact that even though Naruto and Sasuke are the reincarnations of Indra and Ashura, Kishi is putting more focus on paralleling them to Hagoromo and Hamura. They've barely had their powers for 10 chapters and he's already discarded the brothers. Since Kishi seems to be pushing this new parallel, he should not have paralleled Naru/Sasu to the sage's sons, because that got discarded real fast.

 

My main problem with the N/S parallel to the sage and his brother is, for them to be paralleled, Kishi might end up making another couple of brothers fight all their lives, until a huge threat appeared and made them work together. I don't want another back story on the same bullsh*t we've been subjected to with Sasuke/Naruto, Kakashi/Obito, Orochimaru/Jiraiya, Madara/Hashirama, and Indra/Ashura. We get it, we don't need another example of brothers/best friends/rivals having fall outs, yet working together.

 

I'm just praying that Kishi goes back to focusing on who the boys are suppose to have the chakra and be paralleled to. Because at this rate, Indra and Ashura will have less relevance, just like how Naruto is an Uzumaki, yet is always depicted as a Senju.

 

But yeah, other than history 101 class, nothing was great about this chapter.


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#274 only Naruto

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Posted 19 June 2014 - 06:18 AM

i think that sasuke is the one to blame for his actions no doubt about that.but he also has his reasons to do it .even though .sasuke is the one to blame most .why? 1st cause sasuke knew the truth about itachi  and he had 2 options obito didnt force him to do it .the 2nd is when naruto hated the village and he just needed iruka sensi to get him back to the right side. thats why naruto keep chasing sasuke because naruto believe when sasuke understand that naruto understand him he will be good .but hasnt naruto done that like the hole serious and made us almost hatting him chasing after sasuke .?so thats why i say its sasukes fault .he have no excuse he is arrogant and jelouse from naruto .and we will find out soon.i want naruto to save sasuke .but i dont want sasuke to be in the way of narusaku. and yes i could be wrong.



#275 only Naruto

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Posted 19 June 2014 - 06:26 AM

Wow, you guys are so quick just hang somebody for one mistake. A man could do a thousand goods deeds, but one mistake is enough to condemn him. Itachi never had that much of a choice now did he? He was kind of a double agent that had to keep up an appearance so as to stay with him the group he was spying on. It would look really suspicious if all of a sudden he just went extremely soft on his brother.

I also like the double standard on this logic where it doesn't absolve Sasuke of his crimes, but apparently he is to blame for Sasuke being the selfish jerk that he is? What ever happened to your "people should be responsible for their own actions?" If that is the case, then Sasuke turning into the man that he is now should not have been affected at all by Itachi's doing. Sasuke could have easily ignored his brother. Sasuke could have easily stayed in Konoha and chose to live a peaceful life....like Itachi wanted him to.

Should we also blame Sasuke's father and how his upbringing on how he treated his son like crap growing up? Should we blame the clan for having these high standards and not teaching their clan the values of it all?

People make their own choices. We can only be influenced by other people if we let them influence us and just as you blame Obito for him siding with Madara, then you should blame Sasuke for allowing himself to succumb to his emotions of revenge. Also, funny how when you learn the truth about Itachi and what he wanted for Sasuke....Sasuke still does the opposite and doesn't listen at all. It took a story from Hashirama to convince him not to destroy Konoha. So if Sasuke wants to be like Hitler and enslaved Konoha now, should we blame Hashirama then?

I don't see it like that because of the position Itachi was in and what he thought was the good choice of action. He wanted Sasuke to hate him so he didn't hate Konoha for what they did. He purposely wanted to take the blame so Sasuke would stay in Konoha and support it. See Konoha as the good guys, but Sasuke is just too stubborn. So Itachi influenced Sasuke by...not influencing him?

Sasuke made his own choices and it was his choice alone. Just as every other character made their choices as well.  There is no way any person can say that one action can cause the downfall of another. Hell, in Trigun they even play with this idea where Vash let the main villain go and another character blamed him because she believed Vash was the reason her father treated her mother so badly, but upon further inspection if Vash stopped him before and didn't let him go...then she never would have been born in the first place. There is more to it than just saying one can influence another because you never know what the outcome could be.

You can simplify it if you really want to like that, but Sasuke made his own choices. 

Unless you really want to get technical, then Kaguya is to blame for it all. Kaguya who basically forced the two clans to fight and altered things in the clan to better suit her needs. If her Black Zetsu never altered the tablet, then the Senju and Uchiha war would not have happened in the first place.

So I guess all the blame is on Kaguya.

 

i agree with u in the idea that no matter what sasukes reasons he had the choice to do the right thing all along the way but he chose the darkness and left his friends . not only that they kept chasing after him to get him back to the right way and he tried to kill them .so yeah i agree with u..... and james i want to know what u think will happen whaen sakura knows the truth about itachi :twitch:  :D ?



#276 Liu bie

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Posted 19 June 2014 - 06:36 AM

I don't know guys but I think will be time to TenTen appears(If she didn't fall in the genjutsu)  after all Naruto and  Sasuke want to seal Kaguya.


Edited by Liu bie, 19 June 2014 - 06:37 AM.

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#277 tekopi

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Posted 19 June 2014 - 06:41 AM

I don't know guys but I think will be time to TenTen appears(If she didn't fall in the genjutsu)  after all Naruto and  Sasuke want to seal Kaguya.

Sadly, she did fall into the genjutsu. But still there's hope. Maybe the scroll will be bound to be found by the Edos or Kakashi and Sakura.


Edited by tekopi, 19 June 2014 - 06:42 AM.

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#278 only Naruto

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Posted 19 June 2014 - 07:00 AM

Sadly, she did fall into the genjutsu. But still there's hope. Maybe the scroll will be bound to be found by the Edos or Kakashi and Sakura.

yeah that would be great if it  happened .but what about the castle ? maybe kishi forgot :D or next chapter?



#279 Hiddlestoner

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Posted 19 June 2014 - 07:56 AM

 

This is a new arc? How can this be a new arc when the previous had no clear conclusion? As far as I'm concerned this is still the same arc, it's just that every time Naruto and company have gotten close to defeating the big villain, Kishi just changes who the villain is

With all the disposable villains Kishi came up with and the plotholes Kishi creates, can you imagined if Kishi pulls a twist that Teuchi ends up being the final villain and keyser soze'd us all.


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#280 tekopi

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Posted 19 June 2014 - 08:03 AM

Have patience and she will :D. She is THE queen. No one steals the show from her. Not even the king! She is down for a moment doesn't mean she won't bounce back. She will, just have patience :D.

One devoted fanboy, aren't you? LOL. Don't worry, she'll end up to choose Naruto in the end, you can start fanboying Kaguya  :hehehe: .


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