488 replies to this topic

[BakeNeko-Chan]

There is the tardiness ,but he should've provided with some back story- like that time when Sasuke summoned a giant chicken(hawk) out of nowhere and we get Tobito to comment ''Oh?Where did he get that?'' - that's it... Then i see in forums Sasuke fans say'' well his was training off panel'' sure, but were did he get in contact with that? Its like he has to win in order to push the plot along (That's him). If you are gonna give him such easy achievable powers give rational explanation , not just to move the plot forward. I don't know , i've heard that the fans ''whined'' about how tactic and techniques are lame ,so Kishi made it with massive power ups , you can't pander to all of them . I do like close combat fighting techniques etc, but it looks like we''ll get the opposite

 

I'm not surprised. Unfortunately tactics and techniques are what I find much more interesting, not "your jutsu is big, but mine is bigger".

 I loved the introduction of Sage Mode, but I would have liked the powerups to stop after that and focus on Naruto refining and expanding his abilities from there. I also would have liked Kyuubi to stay 'evil'.

[DattebayoXShannaro]

 

I'm not surprised. Unfortunately tactics and techniques are what I find much more interesting, not "your jutsu is big, but mine is bigger".

 I loved the introduction of Sage Mode, but I would have liked the powerups to stop after that and focus on Naruto refining and expanding his abilities from there. I also would have liked Kyuubi to stay 'evil'.

 

Surely, you jest!

[xerorains]

In the Hashirama vs. Madara fight, it was Madara who controlled the Kyuubi. Full Kyuubi, too.

[BakeNeko-Chan]

 

Surely, you jest!

 

I surely do not jest  .

One of the things that first attracted me to the series was the idea of the main character having a literal demon inside him that he must struggle against and eventually overcome, not makes friends and turn it good, because it's actually just misunderstood. It's kinda like Soul's madness manifested as the demon in his soul that is the darkest reflection of himself, and something he continually struggles against and eventually uses to his advange.

I love the idea of the Kyuubi being the actual ultimate villain, a battle that Naruto would have to fight within himself, but as it is now, that will never happen.

Edited by BakeNeko-Chan, 26 September 2013 - 06:15 PM.

[Dkey]

the idea of Sasuke using Juugo as a senjutsu source was speculated back when it was revealed that only senjutsu can hold on to Obito's abilities.

And frankly it's better that it's a temporary upgrade because I don't see it matter to much against the fight with Naruto.

 

Unfortunately Kishi needs to bring new abilities every major fight and now we have Naruto with his senjutsu and kyuubi combined attacks but what's next for him. Or if he has something new. Then again the Sasuke Naruto fight can be done only by attacking chidori with Rasengan. That could crumble a few mountains.

 

I see Sasuke participating as opposed to Hashirama because of the generations thing. It's their generation time to shine. Maybe even fix the mistakes of the past.

 

And as for the flashbacks and possible theme of this volume I think this is the winning theme for this one mistakes of the past or something relating to the shinobi world.

 

Thou everyone is talking about Sasuke and Hashirama's flashback but no one noticed Obito's comments about regrets. Anyone have a thought on that.

[六道仙人]

Someone has pointed out that Hashirama's speech in this chapter is very similar to that's famous Martin Luther King ("I have a dream.").
Before the Shodai Raikage who's identical to Jimi Hendrix and now this speech is similar to MLK's. Sure Kishimoto was pretty inspired by the history in this chapter...

[TouKen4Life3g]

Never noticed that Tobirama wasn't pleased that Sasuke was showing the same potential as Madara, which is what Tobirama tried to prevent long time ago, so that's a heads up. On the other hand, Naruto is more of a go-happy moment as he was happy. Hm. How the heck I noticed this late. Good to know.

[Psychox]

 

I'm not surprised. Unfortunately tactics and techniques are what I find much more interesting, not "your jutsu is big, but mine is bigger".

 I loved the introduction of Sage Mode, but I would have liked the powerups to stop after that and focus on Naruto refining and expanding his abilities from there. I also would have liked Kyuubi to stay 'evil'.

Exactly, the moment it was introduced and the flow of the story took route i grew intoxicated with the manga , because Naruto was finally growing up and this ability was shown to be matched the rinnegan , trouble was  Kurama is a bad roommate and didn't let Fukaku in. I was hoping Naruto to get more Senjustu techniques, plus something more. Sasuke's EMS suits him very well it would've made an interesting clash , but now.. i don't know, if he achieves Rinnegan i'd like to see more mykuton action. The kyuubi thing was working-ish but its still on a scale.. 

[LuckyChi7]

kinda off topic, but the hahirama flashback does foreshadow a possibility of Naruto killing Sasuke because if you look back, Hashirama was pretty the same way as Naruto like Madara is the same way as Sasuke. so I get the feeling that was another purpose to foreshadow Naruto doing something that he hasn't done before, and that's too a kill a friend.  

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

kinda off topic, but the hahirama flashback does foreshadow a possibility of Naruto killing Sasuke because if you look back, Hashirama was pretty the same way as Naruto like Madara is the same way as Sasuke. so I get the feeling that was another purpose to foreshadow Naruto doing something that he hasn't done before, and that's too a kill a friend.  

But the part when Hashirama "killed" Madara was the part where he failed and kishi emphasizes that scene around it.

So i think the only possibility of Sasuke dying is Sasuke sacrificing himself to save Naruto from Orochimaru perhaps if he doesnt die before.

[T XD]

However, Naruto hasn't surpassed Hashirama.  If Sasuke surpasses Madara, Naruto will have problems.

I think what you mean is that you want to be said in the manga. I don't know if it will be said, and it's possible that Hashirama might say something like that to him. But, now, Naruto has surpassed many including Hashirama. His powers even Hashirama's dream of the world is on the steps to be achieved by Naruto. Naruto has already surpassed Hashirama except the latter's dream yet and to save his friend that are close to be done. I call that surpassing already and also cause powers are the main reason here I think.

 

Sasuke obviously will surpass Madara. Sasuke will be more powerful in the final battle than ever. I think this was clear from when we saw Hashirma's and Madara's flashbacks when they were young by Naruto and Sasuke paralleling them. Power ups and the highest level of his eye are on their way for Sasuke. Plus, Tobirama, I think it was him from this chapter, already made it more obvious that Sasuke will surpass Madara.

By that, Naruto won't have any difficulty cause they will be on the same power level in the final battle. Naruto will gain also power ups more than what he already have, and one of them is Dark Kurama. Techniques are already many of what he can do when fighting with just using two Kuramas.

Edited by T XD, 26 September 2013 - 07:55 PM.

[DattebayoXShannaro]

Exactly, the moment it was introduced and the flow of the story took route i grew intoxicated with the manga , because Naruto was finally growing up and this ability was shown to be matched the rinnegan , trouble was  Kurama is a bad roommate and didn't let Fukaku in. I was hoping Naruto to get more Senjustu techniques, plus something more. Sasuke's EMS suits him very well it would've made an interesting clash , but now.. i don't know, if he achieves Rinnegan i'd like to see more mykuton action. The kyuubi thing was working-ish but its still on a scale.. 

 

It'd be nice, but the route Kishimoto took wasn't bad either.  On the bright side, Naruto can theoretically learn any jutsu now, because all his techniques involved different types of chakra control.

 

Never noticed that Tobirama wasn't pleased that Sasuke was showing the same potential as Madara, which is what Tobirama tried to prevent long time ago, so that's a heads up. On the other hand, Naruto is more of a go-happy moment as he was happy. Hm. How the heck I noticed this late. Good to know.

 

It happens.  Sometimes you need a second look to see things you missed the first time.

 

kinda off topic, but the hahirama flashback does foreshadow a possibility of Naruto killing Sasuke because if you look back, Hashirama was pretty the same way as Naruto like Madara is the same way as Sasuke. so I get the feeling that was another purpose to foreshadow Naruto doing something that he hasn't done before, and that's too a kill a friend.  

 

No, that counters the theme of surpassing generations.  Hashirama couldn't save Madara, so Naruto will save Sasuke.

 

 

I surely do not jest  .

One of the things that first attracted me to the series was the idea of the main character having a literal demon inside him that he must struggle against and eventually overcome, not makes friends and turn it good, because it's actually just misunderstood. It's kinda like Soul's madness manifested as the demon in his soul that is the darkest reflection of himself, and something he continually struggles against and eventually uses to his advange.

I love the idea of the Kyuubi being the actual ultimate villain, a battle that Naruto would have to fight within himself, but as it is now, that will never happen.

 

I understand, but I'm glad Kishimoto took this route.  Instead of having the Bjuu be evil beings as commonly thought, they were malevolent only due to the mistreatment of humans for generations.  That's a more unique and realistic situation than having them be what they were made to look like in the beginning, at least to me.

Edited by DattebayoXShannaro, 26 September 2013 - 07:53 PM.

[TouKen4Life3g]

^Yeah, I know. It's just it's good to know.

[Broken Figurine]

It's not "nowhere." It came out of Juugo's rear end. Team Not Seven only had a conister of beans to eat on the way...and you can fill in the rest of how this power up works from there.

Besides, being near Juugo and getting the effects of the cursed seal is not what really makes this junk. It's that the seal is "senjutsu." The concept of Senjutsu has been around for sometime, the cursed seal even longer, but only now gets around to saying that the seal is this and does so at a time where it is the only method to damage Obito.

It's awfully convenient.

The more apt comparison is to Tsunade being saved in that's it's rather contrivied. Yeah, it's kinda of an ass pull, but I don't think that's the real literary crime committed with this. Kishimoto has the villain become invulernable to all attacks but Senjutsu. The result is that no one, but a select few can cause damage (Hashirama and Naruto) him, meaning everyone else becomes support if they are lucky and plot devices or cannon fodder if they aren't. Either way, they take a back seat in the fight. Hashirama is conveniently indisposed at the moment. So, it's Naruto. But! Low and behold Sasuke can access Juugo's seal by being downwind of him and it's Senjustu (what luck!)...so Naruto and Sasuke take the lead.

They must work together in order to save everything from the pile of debris that calls himself Obito. And them specifically, rather than them as components of a larger group.

They shall fight together and briefly recreate the good old days (and Sasuke will have saving the universe under his belt when it comes to redemption time) just before they have a fundamental disagreement on how to finish saving the universe when this is over. So...pretty much it tracks the path of Madara and Hashirama point for point. And just in case we didn't get the subtle hint witht he four chapter flash back and Sasuke's current involvement, he makes sure to sprinkle in some Hashirama to turn his subtle nudging into a kick to the face.

It's terribly contrivied.

 

Well, yes, given that no character drive the plot as much as him, I'd imagine so. Significant changes in his behavior alter the story and points Kishimoto make.

I'm somewhat at a loss as to why this is a huge problem. I can't think of to many main characters who can be completely decoupled from the plot, especially when an author wants to make specific points using said plot.
 
 

Who here wants to see a Sasuke training arc? I'm expect the count to be somewhere near zero. It was off screen and just stated he worked really hard, who would be satsified? Doesn't expect this number to much higher.

Naruto is not immune from this either. He got his most recenet boost from a fist bump.
 

As if he's the only one...Sakura is a corpse if Naruto is not in the right place at the right time.

And the following is directed at the thread in general:

When did complaining about a chapter suddenly become in vogue again?

I see more than one person who lectured people last week now suddenly complaining themselves.

I don't disagree all that much with the criticisms of this chapter, but it's seems rather hypocritical.

 

I'm trying to put my finger on what it is about Sasuke getting these ah, contrived powers that personally irks me so much. Is it my personal bias, or is there something that sets him apart from other characters when something like this happens? I'll admit I'm far more forgiving of Naruto; I don't always think it's good writing, and I know I've been annoyed before with his training arcs, but now whenever Sasuke shows up I'm so critical XD 

 

I want to say it's a consistency issue. I just can't understand this character anymore. Since leaving Orochimaru, fighting Itachi, and striking up with Obito, he's been all over the place. Truth this, truth that, and it's a barrage of one thing after the other when it's most convenient or as you put, contrived. It makes me sad because I really, really liked Sasuke part one and early part two (before he got a team) and now, even though he's so major to the plot, he feels lost--sort of like what James said that he's become a 'as the plot demands it' character rather than one who drives or changes the plot. It used to be about rescuing him and his revenge. He was so much more straight forward and his training was just ambiguous enough that we could imagine all sorts of things he was trained for, the power and potential he could have, and we waited for the day he showed it off. He did, with the fight against Itachi, and it was at that point he lost his original, big purpose. There was no saving him from Orochimaru, there was no pulling him out of the darkness (he showed with Team Not Seven he isn't this lone wanderer), and he's been constantly seeking the truth, only to come to the conclusion this world sucks.

 

Everyone else for me has been more tolerable. I know that in this manga things happen seemingly out of nowhere, but Sasuke... does anyone else feel this way about him? I'm having a hard time trying to articulate how this scene's contrivance is worse than all the others we met with. Is it because he's unsympathetic at this point? Because I'm not rooting for him so I don't care to see him grow and win? 

 

Also, totally agree that reducing everyone else to support or fodder by making it Senjutsu only seems like a really bad move during a big war arc. Kishimoto is really bad with making a lot of people useful; he's always focusing on a few people even in big scale fights; or when teams actually mattered (with the exception of Ino-Shika-Cho, but Shikamaru was always a big focus even with them). 

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

I hope Naruto and Sasuke doesnt share up the goal of saving the world for god's sake.

[Psychox]

 

It'd be nice, but the route Kishimoto took wasn't bad either.  On the bright side, Naruto can theoretically learn any jutsu now, because all his techniques involved different types of chakra control.

 

 

It happens.  Sometimes you need a second look to see things you missed the first time.

 

 

No, that counters the theme of surpassing generations.  Hashirama couldn't save Madara, so Naruto will save Sasuke.

 

 

I understand, but I'm glad Kishimoto took this route.  Instead of having the Bjuu be evil beings as commonly thought, they were malevolent only due to the mistreatment of humans for generations.  That's a more unique and realistic situation than having them be what they were made to look like in the beginning, at least to me.

 

True that, Kurama was blocking his chance of learning potential and diverse justsus, maybe we''ll see him train another arc? As for Sasuke... yeah... plot demands it ^

[TouKen4Life3g]

I hope Naruto and Sasuke doesnt share up the goal of saving the world for god's sake.

I see that in the end, not here. The problem is that they have two different method and one is obviously the right way. In the flashback, Hashirama and Madara were going to agree until the truth is out. Hashirama is still cool with it but Madara quickly said screw it, which is why they split up until that one battle. Noticed that Tobirama does the kill and not Hashirama when approaching to Madara's brother. When it was Hashirama's turn, he decided to take his own life until Madara told him to stop and call it a truce. Madara/Sasuke is the main problem of the peace and the only answer is to erase him. Hashirama did that or so he believe, so now Naruto's time is almost coming.

[DattebayoXShannaro]

I think what you mean is that you want to be said in the manga. I don't know if it will be said, and it's possible that Hashirama might say something like that to him. But, now, Naruto has surpassed many including Hashirama. His powers even Hashirama's dream of the world is on the steps to be achieved by Naruto. Naruto has already surpassed Hashirama except the latter's dream yet and to save his friend that are close to be done. I call that surpassing already and also cause powers are the main reason here I think.

 

Sasuke obviously will surpass Madara. Sasuke will be more powerful in the final battle than ever. I think this was clear from when we saw Hashirma's and Madara's flashbacks when they were young by Naruto and Sasuke paralleling them. Power ups and the highest level of his eye are on their way for Sasuke. Plus, Tobirama, I think it was him from this chapter, already made it more obvious that Sasuke will surpass Madara.

By that, Naruto won't have any difficulty cause they will be on the same power level in the final battle. Naruto will gain also power ups more than what he already have, and one of them is Dark Kurama. Techniques are already many of what he can do when fighting with just using two Kuramas.

 

Naruto hasn't surpassed Hashirama yet, and as you said, it hasn't been stated.  Currently, Naruto has only been compared to Hashirama by Tobirama, establishing the parallel.  You're right that Naruto carries Hashirama's Will of Fire and wants to create a lasting peace as well from what's been entrusted to him.  I only wanted to note in terms of power:  no one has reached the God of Shinobi.  Also,it's interesting to parallel Naruto and Hashirama.  From what we know Hashirama was always quite talented as a shinobi since he was young and had a rare ability, but Naruto had no talent at all, and no special abilities.  It's quite the contrast, along with their similarities.

 

 

I see that in the end, not here. The problem is that they have two different method and one is obviously the right way. In the flashback, Hashirama and Madara were going to agree until the truth is out. Hashirama is still cool with it but Madara quickly said screw it, which is why they split up until that one battle. Noticed that Tobirama does the kill and not Hashirama when approaching to Madara's brother. When it was Hashirama's turn, he decided to take his own life until Madara told him to stop and call it a truce. Madara/Sasuke is the main problem of the peace and the only answer is to erase him. Hashirama did that or so he believe, so now Naruto's time is almost coming.

 

Naruto will choose a third option.  He's similar to Hashirama, but he's not a carbon copy.  Naruto has his own way of solving problems.

Edited by DattebayoXShannaro, 26 September 2013 - 08:42 PM.

[rocci]

@datteyoxshannaro
Naruto is the same if not already surpassed hashirama. And naruto is talented, I mean this's the boy who can learn tajuu kage bushin in one night, learn kuchiyose in one month, master rasengan in two week. The reason why he suck, Kyubi.

[BakeNeko-Chan]

 

It'd be nice, but the route Kishimoto took wasn't bad either.  On the bright side, Naruto can theoretically learn any jutsu now, because all his techniques involved different types of chakra control.

 

 

It happens.  Sometimes you need a second look to see things you missed the first time.

 

 

No, that counters the theme of surpassing generations.  Hashirama couldn't save Madara, so Naruto will save Sasuke.

 

 

I understand, but I'm glad Kishimoto took this route.  Instead of having the Bjuu be evil beings as commonly thought, they were malevolent only due to the mistreatment of humans for generations.  That's a more unique and realistic situation than having them be what they were made to look like in the beginning, at least to me.

 

And that's okay too, it really just comes down to preference. I understand Kishi's reasoning, and accept it for what it is, but if I were me, I'd have done it differently, for the reason I stated previously.