310 replies to this topic

[Gravenimage]

I didn't know there was no chapter this week oh well. It's not like I was desperate for a new chapter since I'm still hooked playing Tales of Xillia and Dragon's Crown lol.

Edited by Gravenimage, 14 August 2013 - 01:51 PM.

[TouKen4Life3g]

Somewhat off-topic: Now that we got the part-time hentai artist (lol) did the poster, who would you like to do the next time one with heroines of SJ? Of course Sakura will be there, so yeah, anyone who you think should do one?

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

I didn't know there was no chapter this week oh well. It's not like I was desperate for a new chapter since I'm still hooked playing Tales of Xillia and Dragon's Crown lol.

Universalis IV.

[Canadian_DJ]

Since there'll be another week of waiting before the next chapter is released, I thought I might post some very interesting theories that people from other forums have made concerning this Yin-Yang Release ability of Onmyoudon, the Rinnegan, and the Sage. 
 

I believe Kishimoto took the Onmyodo as inspiration in writing the Uzumaki Clan and the Onmyoji Abe no Seimei as inspirations for Naruto, The Uzumakis and Rikudou Sennin, they may not be exact copies of each other but they have many similarities:

The Onmyōdō literally translates as "The Way of Yin and Yang" is an occult system that is an amalgamation of Shintoism, Buddhism and Taoism.
 
Rikudou Sennin had such mastery over the Yin–Yang Release that he used Yin to make his dreams take form, and then used Yang to make his fantasies real. He could even make them come to life.
The Onmyōji were the practitioners of Onmyōdō, The Onmyōji were specialists in magic and divination. Their court responsibilities ranged from tasks such as keeping track of the calendar, to mystical duties such as divination and protection of the capital from evil spirits. They could divine auspicious or harmful influences in the earth, and were instrumental in the moving of capitals.
The main powers of the Onmyōji are the exorcism and warding off of evil spirits, and commanding the Shikigami (Kami-like spirits)
Just like the Uzumaki technique which summons the Shinigami: Shiki Fuujin
Like the Shiki Fuujin, the Shikigami is summoned through a complex mystical ritual, and like the Shiki Fuujin, the Onmyōji's life and spiritual force is connected to the "Shiki" if the summoner is careless, his shikigami may get out of control in time, gaining its own will and consciousness. In this case the shikigami will raid its own master and kill him in revenge.
The Shiki Fuujin in Naruto however kills the caster automatically:
The powers of the Onmyōjis over demons and spirits are very similar to the Uzumaki's Fuuinjutsus
 
Rikudou Sennin who is probably an Uzumaki himself vanished the most powerful demon in Narutoverse: The Juubi
The Onmyōjis were said to possess extremely long lives and good health like the most famous Onmyōji Abe no Seimei
Like the Uzumakis who were said to possess extremely long lives and vitality/chakra
The most famous Onmyōji Abe no Seimei, is the son of the fox spirit (kitsune) Kuzunoha
Naruto on the other hand is the son of Kushina, who has the nine-tailed fox sealed inside him, Kurama
 

 

 
It does add credence to the idea that the Sage may have in fact been an Uzumaki himself. The fact that this esoteric occult embodies all three different major belief systems indigenous to the Far East and with the three canonical doujutsu of the Naruto series having been inspired by these beliefs, it really begs the question of how much of a relation the clans all share with the sage and what his exact origins are. 
 
There's one other theory that I would like to share from another topic which I'm sure will garner quite a bit of backlash and handwaving. It concerns the Hyuga and their possible ancestral relation to the Sage. 
 

The Hyuga embody the concepts of Taoism. The Rinnegan embodies the concepts of Budhism (and seems to have no clan - possibly being attainable by anyone who reaches an enlightened state, assuming Naruto keeps the Rinnegan in line with Budhism). The Uchiha embody the concepts of Shintoism (or, more so, its gods/goddesses).
If one looks at the concepts within Taoism and how they relate to the way the Byakguan stacks up, already:
Figthing Styles:
Baguazhang, an internal martial art developed around the ideas of Taoism reflects the overall approach of the Gentle Fist and its varying techniques: http://en.wikipedia....iki/Bagua_Zhang The "Eight Trigrams" prefix to all of those techniques pretty much says it all.
But it goes deeper than that. T'ai chi ch'uan is another internal martial art designed around Taoism and seems to have been the influence for the chakra network and the Hyuga's ability to interupt the harmonious flow of energy in opponents or precisely manage it within themselves: http://en.wikipedia....T'ai_chi_ch'uan
And there's a third: Xingyiquan is yet another internal martial art developed around Taoism which seems to have developed from/around spear techniques; focusing on fast, powerful linear attacks inspired/named after animals: http://en.wikipedia....T'ai_chi_ch'uan - this is exactly what we see within the very limited view we get of the Gentle Step: Twin Lion Fist (the only Hyuga art yet to mention an animal).
End Game Hyuga:
Uchiha gotta mind-****, Senju gotta heal, Uzumaki gotta chakra-'splode... what's a Hyuga to do? What is their 'niche' - their specialty and their ultimate state?
I think the answer to this lay in Taoism, as well.
The 'goal' of Taoism is to work within the Tao (nature) harmoniously ... to affect change without disrupting the natural order and/or expending great amounts of effort. The Chinese words for this were Wu and Wei. Wu is 'to be without' or 'to be empty' and Wei is 'to do' or as 'action/effort.' The end-goal of Taoism is "Wei Wu Wei" - or 'action without effort.'http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wu_wei
"It is in the state of Ming[citation needed] that the Taoist is in full harmony with Tao, and 'having arrived at this pointless point of non-action, there is nothing that is left undone.' It is upon achievement of this Chinese equivalent to 'enlightenment' that a sage begins to perform wei wu wei, or 'action without action.' Thus the sage will be able to work in harmony with Tao to accomplish what is needed, and, working in perfect harmony with the Tao, leave no trace of having done it."
The Over-Powered interpretation of that (also known as the Sharingan Viewpoint) means that a Hyuga at the peak of his/her ability makes Infinite Tsukuyomi look like a failed troll. Rather than creating the ultimate illusion - they change reality, itself, and do so without grand displays. They simply cause things to "work out" the way they need to.
The more reasonable interpretation of this (also known as the TenTen Viewpoint) is that the Hyuga at the peak of his/her abilities is able to directly effect nature chakra for spontaneous use. Rather than using the "gentle fist" on the "inner coils system" of people - they use it on the fabric of the universe, itself - using tiny pricks to cause other things to happen.
In short - the Hyuga were among the first sages (as we are familiar with them from the Toad Sage and other abilities).
I suspect it will be revealed that the Sage acquired the Rinnegan through a process of enlightenment (and that obtaining the Rinnegan is not genetics per se). But that the Hyuga and Uzumaki make up the paternal and maternal lineages of the sage, respectively.
It has been stated that the Rinnegan allows one to utilize any jutsu ... but that's not been seen in practice aside from claims that the Sage was responsible for starting the teaching of elemental ninjutsu to individuals.
That does, however, fit in with many of the concepts of the Byakugan. The Eight Trigrams are each the different 'states' of yin and yang within the universe (three 'slots' can be filled with either yin or yang chakra - which gives us 8 possible combinations). While Naruto seems to only deal with five of these elements (to be fair, Sky and Ocean seem to be a bit difficult to work in when Water, Wind, and Thunder/Lightning already exist...)... they all fall within the Hyuga's theme:http://en.wikipedia....Bagua_(concept)
So it's arguable that a Hyuga adept at manipulating natural chakra inherently gains the ability to mold nature chakra into an elemental form and utilize it (as well as detect the chakra affinities of others and instruct them on how to utilize these principles).
... Which, interestingly enough - the Uzumaki's Eight Trigrams seal falls within the same: http://naruto.wikia....s_Sealing_Style
It's quite possible that both the Hyuga and Uzumaki lineages predate the Sage - and that the Sage of Six Paths was 'merely' an Uzuamki endowed with a Byakugan who benefited from advanced Hyuga abilities (since lost or largely unutilized by the Hyuga) which enabled him to achieve enlightenment to unlock the Rinnegan.
His advanced ability to manipulate nature chakra into all elements led to the Rinnegan being incorrectly attributed with the ability to use all chakra natures. This also provides a branching of the Uzumaki/Senju at the sage (the Senju are the younger son while the Uzumaki are the maternal lineage of the Sage... although I would argue that, to fit more in line with known genetics - the 'younger son' would actually be the younger daughter) - with the Sage, himself, likely marrying to someone of the Uzumaki lineage (or the line that would become the Uzumaki). The strong interaction of the early Hyuga and Uzumaki created the advanced Uzumaki sealing system that would be passed down for generations to come.
The Hyuga persisted as normal, but the Sage's elder son fostered the Sharingan mutation.

 
Honestly, quite a bit of this information escapes me but from what I can personally infer, several of the theories presented by the poster here seems unlikely, if not impossible; specifically relating to how the Rinnegan can be acquired through enlightenment despite it being confirmed and physically shown that it's acquired through hereditary means or their supposed affinity for nature. 
 
Still, much of what they say actually makes sense. There were subtle hints given during the early stages of the manga that the Byakugan may have been a progenitor of the Sharingan. Moreover there is evidence in the first theory that argues for the Yin-Yang Release abilities of the Sage and the Uzumaki Clan's affinity for fuinjutsu, notably the Shiki Fujin, having some correlation with each other. There's also the fact that the spiritual successor (reincarnation) of the Sage happens to be in the form of a boy from neither major clans that originally hailed from the Younger and Older Sons. 
 
In a crude sense maybe the Rinnegan is just the application of principals derived from Buddhist inspiration into the Taoist oriented Byakugan (please excuse the ignorant tone). Or maybe this is just someone overthinking a plot concept which Kishi abandoned soon after its inception. Either way I have to admit that the creators of those theories did a very impressive job. Very enlightening but very confusing as well.

The hyuga dont have anything to do with anything as far as the eye of the moon plan and to become rikudo. Only the sharingan and reningan. Uzumaki/senju/uchiha.

[Atheck]

The hyuga dont have anything to do with anything as far as the eye of the moon plan and to become rikudo. Only the sharingan and reningan. Uzumaki/senju/uchiha.

 

That argument has no relevance to the Hyuga's position in the Moon's Eye Plan. They pertain to the cultural, spiritual, and symbolical connotations of the Byakugan's inspiration by Taoism, one of the three major spiritual systems of the East that Kishi has used bits and pieces from in his manga. Yin-Yang Release, an elemental affinity that the Sage was famous for using, apparently is rooted in the cosmological Onmyodo practice. Sharingan, Rinnegan, and yes, Byakugan as well, were all inspired by belief systems and quite possibly Yin-Yang Release itself. 

 

This isn't being posted to perch the Byakugan on an equal level beside the other two doujutsu. It's merely an interesting theory uncovered that attempts to go into more depth about the Sage's background and his abilities. 

[TouKen4Life3g]

Rikudou is required the body of a Senju and the eyes of an Uchiha.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

Rikudou is required the body of a Senju and the eyes of an Uchiha.

Well i dont know if being an uchiha is a requeriment for being the rikkudou, i mean they only need the body which the uchihas doesnt have.

I feel that you only need the body to be it's jinchuuriki.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 14 August 2013 - 02:59 PM.

[TouKen4Life3g]

You know, Obito did have a chance to comment on Hyuuga when talking bad things about them like if he kills them, their seal will disappear. Opportunity missed.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

You know, Obito did have a chance to comment on Hyuuga when talking bad things about them like if he kills them, their seal will disappear. Opportunity missed.

Yep i was going to comment about that :)

[TouKen4Life3g]

Yep i was going to comment about that :)

You just got ninja'd! Lol. I'm kidding but seriously, that was the chance. Heck, even seeing Naruto and Hinata side-by-side.

[Atheck]

You know, Obito did have a chance to comment on Hyuuga when talking bad things about them like if he kills them, their seal will disappear. Opportunity missed.

 

He only has available what information Madara discriminately chose to spoon-feed him. Tobi is aware of the origins of the Senju and Uchiha Clans, but anything concerning Rikudo Sennin himself was probably lost as time went on and his exploits were forgotten over generations. What do we know about the man specifically besides the fact that he was the progenitor of ninjutsu and that he was the original 10 tails jinchuuriki? Nothing much. There is no physical record of his background or life besides the renowned exploits that were perceived as mythical tales by those currently alive. What exactly came before him? For that matter, how is the Uzumaki Clan related to the Senju? 

 

There are still so many unanswered questions and mysteries concerning Rikudo Sennin himself.

[Dkey]

It's a possibility that all those connections people see with the Hyuuga and the other clans ( Uchiha/Senju/Uzumaki) are actually connections that involve more Neji than Hinata.

 

 

If you think of the symbol of the Hyuuga clan in their generation it's Neji and not Hinata.

 

I wanted to think of how exactly can you consider Hyuuga and Uchiha related and the characters of Neji and Sasuke are the ones that have/had that connection.

 

Both are orphans

Both feel superior to the others because of their birthright.

Their conflict with Naruto is again similar, Neji's with Naruto's was resolved in 614 but it's oddly similar to predictions made for a Sasuke vs Naruto one where Sasuke sacrifices for Naruto.

 

Hinata would be the one to enclose what's good of both characters (Naruto and Neji) as proof 634.

[Atheck]

It's a possibility that all those connections people see with the Hyuuga and the other clans ( Uchiha/Senju/Uzumaki) are actually connections that involve more Neji than Hinata.

Of course, I never once made reference to Hinata in particular. It just seems to be a predilection for many to immediately jump on the bandwagon of arguing against her character whenever the term "Hyuga" is uttered on this board. To many it's synonymous with Hinata.
 

Both are orphans
Both feel superior to the others because of their birthright.
Their conflict with Naruto is again similar, Neji's with Naruto's was resolved in 614 but it's oddly similar to predictions made for a Sasuke vs Naruto one where Sasuke sacrifices for Naruto.

Parallelism isn't the topic being discussed though. I don't know how you came to that conclusion but the discussion was about Kishi's mythological and spiritual inspirations for these new developments regarding the Sage and his origins.

Edited by Atheck, 14 August 2013 - 03:38 PM.

[TouKen4Life3g]

I think a lot of clans are just descendants of Rikudou, so it's possible that everything just get a small trait from him. It's just Uchiha and Senju are the first branch of descendants. Are you that fixated on Hyuuga? Madara even has a chance to comment, but he didn't and he read the hidden scripture. I can't say 100% that Hyuuga has nothing on it, but going by manga, it's telling me that. Kishi is being forward as he can be with this, but doing twist is not going to change anything. Just wait and see.

[Dkey]

Parallelism isn't the topic being discussed though. I don't know how you came to that conclusion but the discussion was about Kishi's mythological and spiritual inspirations for these new developments regarding the Sage and his origins.

 

Well his inspiration was in creating symbols and names for some abilities but it's his decision how he comes to the conclusion that all those began from the Sage.

 

It could be similar to when a work of fiction starts to use symbols from either christianity, judaism, islamism and European mythology but when the story decides to tie up all thos symbols then it's pure fiction.

 

What I'm saying is that it could be the same for Kishi. Maybe some other elements of either Taoism/Shintoism/Buddhism can appear regarding the Sage but we can't predict or assume anything.

 

Kishi named an ability that nullifies Ninjutsu Yin Yang but it feels the complete oposite to what happened with other instances of yin and yang. Madara suggested that peace can be accomplished when those 2 are reunited, Kyuubi right now it's split into yin Kyuubi and yang Kyuubi and Obito is using Yin and yang to nullify any ninjutsu. Also the sage when creating the beasts he used yin and yang ability.

 

It's possibile that the sage and anyone reaching his level (Obito) can use this yin and yang abilities just like Nagato could use the Rinnegan or Sasuke/Madara/Itachi the Mangekyo Sharingan.

[sushi.]

If wish Obito could pull something else off than Bijuu bombs. D:

 

I want him to control all elements, move mountains, create tornados etc.

 

Apparently that's what Rikudo and his Bijuu was capable of, but Kishi can't do this because the good guys need to stand a chance.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

If wish Obito could pull something else off than Bijuu bombs. D:

 

I want him to control all elements, move mountains, create tornados etc.

 

Apparently that's what Rikudo and his Bijuu was capable of, but Kishi can't do this because the good guys need to stand a chance.

Well he denies any kind of ninjutsu, he turned Sasuke into an useless guy.

I think even Sakura is more usefull than Sasuke on the moment.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 14 August 2013 - 06:10 PM.

[sushi.]

Well he denies any kind of ninjutsu, he turned Sasuke into an useless guy.

I think even Sakura is more usefull than Sasuke on the moment.

He denies his opponent's ninjutsu, but denying his own will only hold him back. The preta path has a similar ability, but it didn't keep Pain from attacking with ninjutsu.

 

Bolded makes me really happy.

Edited by sushi., 14 August 2013 - 06:24 PM.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

He denies his opponent's ninjutsu, but denying his own will only hold him back. The preta path has a similar ability, but it didn't keep Pain from attacking with ninjutsu.

 

Bolded makes me really happy.

Yeah it should be NS vs Obito.

Because Sasuke is doing nothing.

[sushi.]

Yeah it should be NS vs Obito.

Because Sasuke is doing nothing.

Personally I think Sasuke has gotten way too much spotlight. I'm usually neutral to him, and I don't dislike him. I'm just tired of him, that's all.

 

Sasuke has genjutsu, I wonder if that will work on Obito. It would be Sharingan vs Sharingan, but Obito only has one. He also has Susanoo and Amaterasu, that's not ninjutsu is it? Sasuke only has the fire release, he's a well rounded ninja. I'm sure he could do something, it makes sense to me.

 

I either want a new Sannin fight, or Naruto and Sakura to team up. I don't really mind as long as Sakura releases her seal and joins in! :)