31713 replies to this topic

[TheFirstEvil100]

Look at what Hollywood has been churning out for at least the last few years.

 

As for kishi himself, either he only cared about the money; like hollywood. Or like I said awhile ago the death of his father made him feel his age, made him realize he was missing out spending time with his family, and after fifteen years wanted to on. nH was sold to him on the premise that its what the fans always wanted. So, if he gave them that as thanks for the years of support; maybe they would forgive the story not being as good as it should have.

Plus, Hollywood is now full PC and SJW.

[Bail o' Lies]

Plus, Hollywood is now full PC and SJW.

At the writing level often times yes, so they care more about spreading a message then tell a good movie, but the old men that have the say what becomes a movie or a show? It just a new fad they hope will put a few extra bucks in their pocket while being praised for doing so.

Edited by Bail o' Lies, 10 October 2019 - 08:49 PM.

[Bail o' Lies]

I blame the animation studio (for their nasty obsession/milking the story to death, their bias against several characters etc.) and other figures along with the western fanbase. I caught a glimpse of one of the last endings and the anime studio didn't even try to hide it either, the second the last chapter came out they already had Hinata, with her made-up personality trait of being able to eat endlessly with Naruto at Ichiraku. Ichiraku. Hinata. Make it make sense. (source: they had a post-credit episode ending where she won the ramen eating competition long ago). 

I wouldn't be surprised if they were the ones ultimately responsible for convincing Kishi to switch the end pairing. He had 11 editors in about 5-6 years when the average 1 for 2-3 years. I doubt all of them could be fanatical Hinata fans. 

 

An editor's job is to try to increase sales of the manga. With Yahagi being in charge of Naruto for the first 10 years none of them could really claim that they made Naruto the seller it was, but maybe they could find something kishi isn't doing to increase sales. In comes SP with bias data to convince the editor that the international fanbase -the most important of Naruto's sales figures to Shueisha- hated Sakura and were in love with Hinata.

 

Bit more convincing and Kishi's new editor is doing the same thing he'd fired the last seven for.

Edited by Bail o' Lies, 12 October 2019 - 10:27 AM.

[Tsuki Hoshino]

Look at what Hollywood has been churning out for at least the last few years.

 

As for kishi himself, either he only cared about the money; like hollywood. Or like I said awhile ago the death of his father made him feel his age, made him realize he was missing out spending time with his family, and after fifteen years wanted to move on. nH was sold to him on the premise that its what the fans always wanted. So, if he gave them that as thanks for the years of support; maybe they would forgive the story not being as good as it should have.

I think its the latter. He'd been writing it for 15years--longer than he probably ever wanted to. IMO Kishimoto is proof that a good/bad editor can make or break a story. In the beginning, we can see a darker more raw--authentic world view. Zabuza and Haku were villains, and while they were sympathetic and they taught tem 7 important lessons their sins were not glossed over and they died horrible, miserable deaths. As the story drags on it becomes progressively "Nicer", continuously dropping off the main character so Kishimoto can toy with ones he finds more interesting than Naruto (because he's bored of writing him.)  the story becomes so forgiving to villains it ends with Orochimaru (basically the Naruto version of Josef Mengele getting to carry on his BS.) getting to live. 

 

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

I think its the latter. He'd been writing it for 15years--longer than he probably ever wanted to. IMO Kishimoto is proof that a good/bad editor can make or break a story. In the beginning, we can see a darker more raw--authentic world view. Zabuza and Haku were villains, and while they were sympathetic and they taught tem 7 important lessons their sins were not glossed over and they died horrible, miserable deaths. As the story drags on it becomes progressively "Nicer", continuously dropping off the main character so Kishimoto can toy with ones he finds more interesting than Naruto (because he's bored of writing him.)  the story becomes so forgiving to villains it ends with Orochimaru (basically the Naruto version of Josef Mengele getting to carry on his BS.) getting to live. 

 

And actually achieving the immortality he had been seeking no less.

And still conducting his experiments.

[Tsuki Hoshino]

And actually achieving the immortality he had been seeking no less.

And still conducting his experiments.

Jiraiya: A good guy who dies doing good things.
Tsunade: a good person who lives in constant pain and regret despite all her achievements.
Orochimaru: An awful no good, very bad POS who gets everything he wanted in the end.

Faaaaaan-kittening-tastic msg  

[Bail o' Lies]

I think its the latter. He'd been writing it for 15years--longer than he probably ever wanted to. IMO Kishimoto is proof that a good/bad editor can make or break a story. In the beginning, we can see a darker more raw--authentic world view. Zabuza and Haku were villains, and while they were sympathetic and they taught team 7 important lessons their sins were not glossed over and they died horrible, miserable deaths. As the story drags on it becomes progressively "Nicer", continuously dropping off the main character so Kishimoto can toy with ones he finds more interesting than Naruto (because he's bored of writing him.)  the story becomes so forgiving to villains it ends with Orochimaru (basically the Naruto version of Josef Mengele getting to carry on his BS.) getting to live. 

I do still think most of the softening of the story is more Kishimoto growing older, having kids, and having a minor panic of I don't want my kids to see something violent. What the change of editors did was make the story have more plot holes and become more inconsistent. Partily due to them trying to screw around with the story, and partly due to them not being able to both help and rein in Kishimoto.

 

Kishimoto does his best work when he has a good editor supporting him; enough to produce the third best selling manga ever. Without a good editor...he is. Ok, does too much exposition and has some weird idea but at it core still has a decent story.

Edited by Bail o' Lies, 12 October 2019 - 06:50 AM.

[Phantom_999]

Well yeah, even with the editors post Yahagi constantly rotating and changing, the story wasn't terrible, all things considered. What went wrong was that chapter 699 and 700 undid all the messages Kishi WANTED portray and rendered the entire series effing pointless.
 
1. Naruto always wanted to become Hokage as his dream/aspiration, but that was done in a side chapter post chapter 700 and was essentially, to be blunt, a running gag comedy about him missing his inauguration. And all of his so called "friends and teachers" think that he was an irresponsible nimrod that would actually miss it and had Konohamaru to disguise himself as Naruto as a backup plan, which wasn't helped by showing Naruto at the start of the chapter completely conked out and over sleeping as is on his couch, plus needed his son to cannon-ball onto his midsection to wake up . That is the portrayal of his LIFELONG GOAL.  
 
2. Naruto is supposed to be some kind of ninja messiah that ends world conflict and bring about an age of peace and unity, but that would ruin the story continuing with his spoiled brat punk son as the main character so the conclusion of Naruto's tale said EFF ALL OF THAT, let's just have that message as unfulfilled and have the main character fail so the series can continue to be about "sci-fi ninjas and aliens from space!" The countries still spy and and plan assassinations on each other, as if nothing has changed, so I guess Naruto's role as dictated by the frog sage elder amounted to nothing. WONDERFUL
 
3. Naruto has to get his best friend and "brother", Sasuke Uchiha from the pedophile-esque Orochimaru who plans to kill him and take his his "young, strong, beautiful" body for himself. (And I DID NOT make that up, this came straight from the horses mouth) When Sasuke "temporarily" kills Orochimaru and rendered that plot point pointless but is still is going through to take his revenge and Naruto IS SOOOOO SURPRISED by that, (Guess he actually doesn't know his best friend that well after all) he makes it his mission is to get Sasuke back no matter what it takes and he even begs the Raikage to not kill Sasuke like a "total wussy", when Sasuke by all rights should be dead as a run-away ninja and not to mention international criminal for attacking the cloud village and attempting to take Killer B. (no one knows he bamboozled the entire world by actually escaping his capture) It was only Tsunade's favoritism to Naruto that Sasuke wasn't hunted down and executed already. All of that effort and and grovelling and when he finally succeeds, Sasuke still leaves the village anyway, and this time with his blessing. I guess he NEEDS TO MAKE LOVE to his brother from another mother "boy toy", before said "boy toy" get to leaves the village and Naruto accepts it. 
 
4. The most insignificant of his goals but still prominent none the less since it drive quite a chunk of the story. His love for Sakura Haruno. It was his love for Sakura that created the promise of a life time, It was his love for Sakura that drives him to bring Sasuke back as much as it it Sasuke being his best friend. Even complete strangers that only knew him for an hour at most at the time (Gamakichi) and Sai who is "emotionally stunted" knew Naruto loved Sakura, and his own father that had been dead for all of Naruto's life asked Sakura' if she was the latter's girlfriend. Hell, Tezuna the construction worker ( If that is his name, I forgot) whom Team 7 have not seen for THE LONGEST TIME, asked if there was a love triangle when Naruto inquired Sasuke left and delved no further into it. Naruto's love for Sakura is driving factor to who he is and Sakura, in typical to love interest fashion changed her initial negative views on him and became a better person for it. It was even hinted she was starting to fall for him in return. AND WHERE DID THAT LEAD? IT LEAD TO "The Last: Naruto the Movie". The movie that was falsely advertised as the epic conclusion to Team 7's bond. The Movie that made Hinata the main character and how all of her dreams and desires came true. The movie where Sakura said that Naruto, whom was so self sacrificing, so understanding and emotionally tender towards her, only "chased and lusted" after her because he wanted to win against Sasuke as a rival. That there was SO INSULTING to anyone that followed the series up until that point. and that leads to...
 
5. In the above mentioned movie is where Naruto "died". He was an empathetic young man that knew about wanting love and acceptance more than anyone is age and possible double or even triple his age. He understood the pain of loneliness and isolation due to being the social pariah of his entire village, and therefore understood the pain of those that are similar to himself. THAT VERY CHARACTER gave up because the girl that he was brainwashed into loving REJECTED HIM and ran off with another man. He fell into depression and did not care that the moon was going to plummet onto the earth like an asteroid because Hinata broke his poor little heart by not accepting his confession. WAS THAT the Naruto Uzumaki that we've been rooting for all these years? Was that the Naruto Uzumaki that rose from being a miserable hated and neglected orphan into one of the world's strongest ninjas that became a beacon of hope for others? Was that Naruto Uzumaki that continued to fight on even as he lost loved ones before, despite needing some pep talk initially? Was that the Naruto Uzumaki that was a selfless and self sacrificing person and champions the suffering of others? I don't think so. And as a side note, Sakura rejected Naruto on a regular basis since childhood, but did that ever deter Naruto from being himself? Again, I don't think so.
 
In conclusion ALL of those things that happened in the span of chapter 699-700 and all of the supplementary materials that accompanied them is what made me DESPISE the series well before Boruto ever started. That  character assassination of the character that we all loved back then named Naruto Uzumaki. And all because some some wackos that had authority over the entire franchise "got all tingly and touched themselves" thinking about the "goddess of all anime waifus", Hinata Hyuga and their mind set was only fueled by like minded, fanatical, irrational fans that you can not even say are real fans.    

Edited by Phantom_999, 14 December 2022 - 02:41 PM.

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

Well yeah, even with the editors post Yahagi constantly rotating and changing, the story wasn't terrible, all things considered. What went wrong was that chapter 699 and 700 undid all the messages Kishi WANTED portray and rendered the entire series effing pointless.
 
1. Naruto always wanted to become Hokage as his dream/aspiration, but that was done in a side chapter post chapter 700 and was essentially, to be blunt, a running gag comedy about him missing his office ascension ceremony. And all of his so called "friends and teachers" think that he was an irresponsible nimrod that would actually miss it and had Konohamaru to disguise himself as Naruto as a backup plan, which wasn't helped by showing Naruto at the start of the chapter completely conked out and over sleeping as is on his couch, plus needed his son to cannon-ball onto his midsection to wake up . That is the portrayal of his LIFELONG GOAL.  
 
2. Naruto is supposed to be some kind of ninja messiah that ends world conflict and bring about an age of peace and unity, but that would ruin the story continuing with his spoiled brat punk son as the main character so the conclusion of Naruto's tale said EFF ALL OF THAT, let's just have that message as unfulfilled and have the main character fail so the series can continue to be about "sci-fi ninjas and aliens from space!" The countries still spy and and plan assassinations on each other, as if nothing has changed, so I guess Naruto's role as dictated by the frog sage elder amounted to nothing. WONDERFUL
 
3. Naruto has to get his best friend and "brother", Sasuke Uchiha from the pedophile-esque Orochimaru who plans to kill him and take his his "young, strong, beautiful" body for himself. (And I DID NOT make that up, this came straight from the horses mouth) When Sasuke "temporarily" kills Orochimaru and rendered that plot point pointless but is still is going through to take his revenge and Naruto IS SOOOOO SURPRISED by that, (Guess he actually doesn't know his best friend that well after all) he makes it his mission is to get Sasuke back no matter what it takes and he even begs the Raikage to not kill Sasuke like a "total wussy", when Sasuke by all rights should be dead as a run-away ninja and not to mention international criminal for attacking the cloud village and attempting to take Killer B. (no one knows he bamboozled the entire world by actually escaping his capture) It was only Tsunade's favoritism to Naruto that Sasuke wasn't hunted down and executed already. All of that effort and and grovelling and when he finally succeeds, Sasuke still leaves the village anyway, and this time with his blessing. I guess he NEEDS TO MAKE LOVE to his brother from another mother "boy toy", before said "boy toy" get to leaves the village and Naruto accepts it. 
 
4. The most insignificant of his goals but still prominent none the less since it drive quite a chunk of the story. His love for Sakura Haruno. It was his love for Sakura that created the promise of a life time, It was his love for Sakura that drives him to bring Sasuke back as much as it it Sasuke being his best friend. Even complete strangers that only knew him for an hour at most at the time (Gamakichi) and Sai who is "emotionally stunted" knew Naruto loved Sakura, and his own father that had been dead for all of Naruto's life asked Sakura' if she was the latter's girlfriend. Hell, Tezuna the construction worker ( If that is his name, I forgot) whom Team 7 have not seen for THE LONGEST TIME, asked if there was a love triangle when Naruto inquired Sasuke left and delved no further into it. Naruto's love for Sakura is driving factor to who he is and Sakura, in typical to love interest fashion changed her initial negative views on him and became a better person for it. It was even hinted she was starting to fall for him in return. AND WHERE DID THAT LEAD? IT LEAD TO "The Last: Naruto the Movie". The movie that was falsely advertised as the epic conclusion to Team 7's bond. The Movie that made Hinata the main character and how all of her dreams and desires came true. The movie where Sakura said that Naruto, whom was so self sacrificing, so understanding and emotionally tender towards her, only "chased and lusted" after her because he wanted to win against Sasuke as a rival. That there was SO INSULTING to anyone that followed the series up until that point. and that leads to...
 
5. In the above mentioned movie is where Naruto "died". He was an empathetic young man that knew about wanting love and acceptance more than anyone is age and possible double or even triple his age. He understood the pain of loneliness and isolation due to being the social pariah of his entire village, and therefore understood the pain of those that are similar to himself. THAT VERY CHARACTER gave up because the girl that he was brainwashed into loving REJECTED HIM and ran off with another man. He fell into depression and did not care that the moon was going to plummet onto the earth like an asteroid because Hinata broke his poor little heart by not accepting his confession. WAS THAT the Naruto Uzumaki that we've been rooting for all these years? Was that the Naruto Uzumaki that rose from being a miserable hated and neglected orphan into one of the world's strongest ninjas that became a beacon of hope for others? Was that Naruto Uzumaki that continued to fight on even as he lost loved ones before, despite needing some pep talk initially? Was that the Naruto Uzumaki that was a selfless and self sacrificing person that champions the suffering of others? I don't think so. And as a side note, Sakura rejected Naruto on a regular basis since childhood, but did that ever deter Naruto from being himself? Again, I don't think so.
 
In conclusion ALL of those things that happened in the span of chapter 699-700 and all of the supplementary materials that accompanied them is what made me DESPISE the series well before Boruto ever started. That  character assassination of the character that we all loved back then named Naruto Uzumaki. And all because some some wackos that had authority over the entire franchise "got all tingly and touched themselves" thinking about the "goddess of all anime waifus", Hinata Hyuga and their mind set was only fueled by like minded, fanatical, irrational fans that you can not even say are real fans.    

 

[Tsuki Hoshino]

I do still think most of the softening of the story is more Kishimoto growing older, having kids, and having a minor panic of I don't want my kids to see something violent. What the change of editors did was make the story have more plot holes and become more inconsistent. Partily due to them trying to screw around with the story, and partly due to them not being able to both help and rein in Kishimoto.

 

Kishimoto does his best work when he has a good editor supporting him; enough to produce the third best selling manga ever. Without a good editor...he is. Ok, does too much exposition and has some weird idea but at it core still has a decent story.

I honestly feel like if its "Because he had kids." He would have written a story in which bad guys have to face justice. In which there are people who are just BAD and there is no explaining it. Because that teaches a real-life reality. It becomes a cautionary tale rather than "Don't worry every bad thing you do doesn't mean a thing because a golden child will be sympathetic to you UwU" 
 

[James S Cassidy]

I honestly feel like if its "Because he had kids." He would have written a story in which bad guys have to face justice. In which there are people who are just BAD and there is no explaining it. Because that teaches a real-life reality. It becomes a cautionary tale rather than "Don't worry every bad thing you do doesn't mean a thing because a golden child will be sympathetic to you UwU" 
 

It is hard to know what Kishimoto is truly thinking. I am still of strong belief that he was tired and bored and did whatever he could to finish the story quickly. Seeing how Dragonball just pulls a "Goku gets a new transformation," he probably did that to finish quickly. Don't show training, just give power-ups. The power themselves are mostly awesome and are pretty cool, but how they are achieved and easily thrown about is what makes the story horrible.

It stops being about tactics like it was in the beginning of the series like with Zabuza (Remember the Naruto/Sasuke windmill shurikan tactic?) and now more about "I make my power greater. I have a bigger number." That is why it feels so cheap and awkward. There is no earned gain and things just happen because reasons. Also, the reason why people call BS on most.

Naruto should have learned more ninja techniques, wind techniques, and tactics. Instead "BIGGER RASENGAN.

 

[Tsuki Hoshino]

I don't know if he did everything he could to finish, because he was still churning out new characters all the time when he could have just focused on a few and finished if he had the ideas to do so--he was just bored of the MC and didn't really know what to do anymore and then he really screwed up by Overpowering Madara to the point that he had to make Kaguya just to get rid of him. It just becomes so damn bizarre at the end. 

I think Kishimoto stopped with the tactics because tactics are hard to figure tbh. It's easy to just give random power-ups and OP abilities rather than focus on minute details. "Why bother with trickery when I can just railgun through the door!" 

[James S Cassidy]

I don't know if he did everything he could to finish, because he was still churning out new characters all the time when he could have just focused on a few and finished if he had the ideas to do so--he was just bored of the MC and didn't really know what to do anymore and then he really screwed up by Overpowering Madara to the point that he had to make Kaguya just to get rid of him. It just becomes so damn bizarre at the end.

Churning out new characters, maybe, but never really giving them anything useful. He came up with characters just for the sake of a MacGuffin. Tell me, what the point of the Gold and SIlver Brothers if NOT to make them be the catalyst for the Ten-tails while having Naruto and Bee still active on the field? What was the point of several elements if not to be some kind of MacGuffin to force the plot forward?

Kishimoto seemed to want to write one thing and all his editors "Kishi, you need to put this in the story so we can make connections to this."

Kishimoto: "Fine. 'The tablet explains how Madara knew all about everything'" There. Now to move on to the samurai."

In fact, I am inclined to believe he just added in that samurai stuff in Naruto cause he was trying stuff for Samurai 8.

Kishimoto just stopped caring about the main core of Naruto the story and just gave up on elements of it. That's why he left the other story elements to everyone else. "I don't care about the romance, so everyone else can write it."

He stopped caring about most of the important elements of the story and yet, some elements he didn't have to explain much. The simply fact that looking at the story as a whole would have solved the problem.

If he made NS and SK canon in the end...he didn't need to explain very much. The entire story was the explanation. Since he settled on NH and SS being canon all they do is now, even today, just try to justify it because nothing makes sense. They essentially made MORE WORK for themselves because they cut corners earlier.

I show this to people in a practical sense and it never fails. If you try to cut corners to "save time" all you are doing is setting yourself up to having to do more work later and it becomes a mess.

 

I think Kishimoto stopped with the tactics because tactics are hard to figure tbh. It's easy to just give random power-ups and OP abilities rather than focus on minute details. "Why bother with trickery when I can just railgun through the door!"

 

One Piece and JoJo's Bizare Adventure does it all the time. They have no problem showing that just "punching harder" doesn't solve problems. Dragonball Super and Naruto seem to just "railgun through the door" even when the door has a healing factor. What if Railgunning doesn't work? "Duhhh....fire the railgun more or getting a bigger railgun."

Plus, you're basically railgunning the very concept of "hardwork beats out natural gifts" which is fine, but if you try to push this ideology up until the very end...only to prove that hardwork means nothing because the strongest people are naturally gifted....then Naruto is the biggest hypocrite of all.

That's the difference thought between Dragonball and Naruto. Goku never said he wasn't special and he actually understood that training and working hard was meant to be strongest. At his very core, he pushed himself to his limits because to him, it was fun. He wasn't trying to prove a point to anyone else, BUT himself. Naruto, on the otherhand, was trying so hard to prove wrong that greatness was earned and not inherited, while having SO MUCH inherited gifts that he blatantly wanted everyone to ignore. The dude was the descendant of several Hokage, a powerful clan, the child of prophecy, and more. He is also the most lazy ninja in the entire village to the point that he whines like a baby if he has to put in effort in anything. Even being Hokage. He will always take the easy road UNLESS it is truly detrimental to his overall goal. Naruto is the most selfish self-made hypocrite in the story while being the biggest baby of the series.

Neji said it best in Part 1 to Naruto himself.
"Oh so you think just ANYBODY can be Hokage?" Get rekt, Naruto.

 

Edited by James S Cassidy, 13 October 2019 - 06:57 PM.

[Tsuki Hoshino]

I'm not making the argument that Kishimoto was right to abandon Tactics for Railguns. I'm just saying he did it because he's clearly a lazy writer Frankly being Lazy and uhm...to put it gently; poor at writing basically explains all his failings in terms of Naruto. 

but yea Naruto himself is a failure to his belief of "hard work and persistence triumphs over blood."  basically, all his powers were handed to him. He inherited Kyuubi and for a while, it was actually a weakness of his. it made him a danger to people around him and then it became a dues ex machina that got BTFO by the whole " Oh look I'm actually a reincarnation of this random guy introduced at the 11th hour." 

None of it is good, it just IS. 


It's sad that we will never get to see what Naruto could have been in the hands of a more competent writer that actually knew what and where they were going with their story rather than being jumbled all over the damn place. 



 

[Bail o' Lies]

I honestly feel like if its "Because he had kids." He would have written a story in which bad guys have to face justice. In which there are people who are just BAD and there is no explaining it. Because that teaches a real-life reality. It becomes a cautionary tale rather than "Don't worry every bad thing you do doesn't mean a thing because a golden child will be sympathetic to you UwU" 

From what I recall he hoped by the end of the story that people learned to stop fight and instead talk thing out in order to understand one another. He said that in a interview before the backlash.

 

Having children can often do weird things to a person's taste. With Kishi, him being more concern about violence than teaching a lesson about justice. Seeing fighting/conflict as bad instead of being concern of what is good or evil. 

 

I don't know if he did everything he could to finish, because he was still churning out new characters all the time when he could have just focused on a few and finished if he had the ideas to do so--he was just bored of the MC and didn't really know what to do anymore and then he really screwed up by Overpowering Madara to the point that he had to make Kaguya just to get rid of him. It just becomes so damn bizarre at the end. 

I think Kishimoto stopped with the tactics because tactics are hard to figure tbh. It's easy to just give random power-ups and OP abilities rather than focus on minute details. "Why bother with trickery when I can just railgun through the door!" 

Tactics required someone to think about the fight before they even write it. What are the characters strengths and weaknesses, what are their abilities, how can the use them, and so on and so forth. With Yahagi he was able to do that. Though over time the fight did become more power level based it wasn't until Yahagi was gone that tactics were thrown out the window. There were times Kishi tried bring them back like with the four dead kages fights but they were very simple, and especially Naruto fight with the Third Raikage seemed to patting itself on the back with how impressive the battle was tactically.

Edited by Bail o' Lies, 14 October 2019 - 03:34 AM.

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

It is hard to know what Kishimoto is truly thinking. I am still of strong belief that he was tired and bored and did whatever he could to finish the story quickly. Seeing how Dragonball just pulls a "Goku gets a new transformation," he probably did that to finish quickly. Don't show training, just give power-ups. The power themselves are mostly awesome and are pretty cool, but how they are achieved and easily thrown about is what makes the story horrible.

It stops being about tactics like it was in the beginning of the series like with Zabuza (Remember the Naruto/Sasuke windmill shurikan tactic?) and now more about "I make my power greater. I have a bigger number." That is why it feels so cheap and awkward. There is no earned gain and things just happen because reasons. Also, the reason why people call BS on most.

Naruto should have learned more ninja techniques, wind techniques, and tactics. Instead "BIGGER RASENGAN.

 

This is why I go as far as to say that ALL of part two should be redone from the ground up, starting with Naruto returning and having actually learned stuff from Jiraiya besides said bigger Rasengan and relying even more on Kurama's chakra as a crutch (despite the very people he was being trained to defend against are meant to fight Jinchuriki and even Biju themselves). 

Heck, they even show just how weak Naruto was compared to Sakura and Sasuke, and Naruto couldn't even do anything against a shape-shift clone of Itachi who is only up to thirty percent of Itachi's full power (with the Kisame shape-shift clone still being said to possess as much chakra as Naruto according to Neji) - one of the very people Naruto was supposedly "trained" to defend himself against.

[Tsuki Hoshino]

From what I recall he hoped by the end of the story that people learned to stop fight and instead talk thing out in order to understand one another. He said that in a interview before the backlash.

 

Having children can often do weird things to a person's taste. With Kishi, him being more concern about violence that teaching a lesson about justice. Seeing fighting/conflict as bad instead of being concern of what is good or evil. 

 

Tactics required someone to think about the fight before they even write it. What are the characters strengths and weaknesses, what are their abilities, how can the use them, and so on and so forth. With Yahagi he was able to do that. Though over time the fight did become more power level based it wasn't until Yahagi was gone that tactics were thrown out the window. There were times Kishi tried bring them bad like with the four dead kages fights but they were very simple, and especially Naruto fight with the Third Raikage seemed to patting itself on the back with how impressive the battle was tactically.

Just shows that Kishimoto himself has an immature mindset. "Oh yea sometime in the near future after Naruto has finished mankind will stop how they have always been because I wrote and drew a comic. The hubris. There are all sorts of "Moral" wars and fights that can be waged, there is such a thing as Just and Unjust and sometimes you can't find common ground and you can't sympathize with someone whose entire world view is opposite to your own. That's just reality. A clever person who wants to teach kids something should deal with those realities, mixing in the optimistic messages with reality-based outcomes. 

but yea Tactics require a lot of detail and thought--it takes longer to plan out a fight and its outcome when you can't just blow through it with Power levels. For someone who is lazy and basically just wants to get done--why bother trying when the character can just go up or level or pull some redonk skill out of nowhere and crush the opponent after a little bit of a beat down?  Every time a difficult villain shows up its just "Aaaaah! -Power up-" instead of figuring out a clever way of using what's already in the arsenal. It gets boring. 

 

This is why I go as far as to say that ALL of part two should be redone from the ground up, starting with Naruto returning and having actually learned stuff from Jiraiya besides said bigger Rasengan and relying even more on Kurama's chakra as a crutch (despite the very people he was being trained to defend against are meant to fight Jinchuriki and even Biju themselves). 

Heck, they even show just how weak Naruto was compared to Sakura and Sasuke, and Naruto couldn't even do anything against a shape-shift clone of Itachi who is only up to thirty percent of Itachi's full power (with the Kisame shape-shift clone still being said to possess as much chakra as Naruto according to Neji) - one of the very people Naruto was supposedly "trained" to defend himself against.

Its honestly kinda sad that Sakura is basically a background character now, but she seemed to have learned more training-wise than the MC. Like wtf. The only person who probably learned less than Naruto was Hinata  

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

It is hard to know what Kishimoto is truly thinking. I am still of strong belief that he was tired and bored and did whatever he could to finish the story quickly. Seeing how Dragonball just pulls a "Goku gets a new transformation," he probably did that to finish quickly. Don't show training, just give power-ups. The power themselves are mostly awesome and are pretty cool, but how they are achieved and easily thrown about is what makes the story horrible.

It stops being about tactics like it was in the beginning of the series like with Zabuza (Remember the Naruto/Sasuke windmill shurikan tactic?) and now more about "I make my power greater. I have a bigger number." That is why it feels so cheap and awkward. There is no earned gain and things just happen because reasons. Also, the reason why people call BS on most.

Naruto should have learned more ninja techniques, wind techniques, and tactics. Instead "BIGGER RASENGAN.

 

 

This is why I go as far as to say that ALL of part two should be redone from the ground up, starting with Naruto returning and having actually learned stuff from Jiraiya besides said bigger Rasengan and relying even more on Kurama's chakra as a crutch (despite the very people he was being trained to defend against are meant to fight Jinchuriki and even Biju themselves). 

Heck, they even show just how weak Naruto was compared to Sakura and Sasuke, and Naruto couldn't even do anything against a shape-shift clone of Itachi who is only up to thirty percent of Itachi's full power (with the Kisame shape-shift clone still being said to possess as much chakra as Naruto according to Neji) - one of the very people Naruto was supposedly "trained" to defend himself against.

 

This is why I work on that crap in my fanfic, guys. Naruto can still access Kurama's chakra, but it's harder initially due to his not having accessed it willingly or intentionally at first, and that he actually goes through a lot of tactics training under others while he's in the Hidden Leaf Village due to the difference The Demon Within has compared to canon, so he isn't off with Jiraiya, and he also isn't gonna be expected to pick up things on his own like Jiraiya expected him to do with the Rasengan just so he could get intel. And I'd even gotten plans to show Naruto can be a much better teacher in some areas than Kakashi and Jiraiya were, as well as his developing some of his own techniques on top of improving what he does have, like better chakra control and such.

 

The Wind-Style training though comes in later because of the fact that it is gonna play a pivotal point of further growth, but he isn't just gonna get the Wind-Style Rasengan or the Wind-Style Rasenshuriken and be like "And we're done!".

[RulesofNature]

Went to my family (Canadian) Thanksgiving today. I remembered my cousin's kid liked Naruto a couple years back, she shows up today wearing a chunin hoodie. I guess she doesn't mind the ending since I know she experienced the anime over the manga.

 

This has me wondering: Are pro-Enders people who were more into the anime, while those disgusted by the ending were more manga based?

[Tsuki Hoshino]

Probably. If all you watch is the Anime there is a lot more Basis for Naruhina and Sasusaku. They basically invented a ton of things that don't exist. I mean--the whole "Naked 12yr old Hinata under the waterfall scene" was still weird as kitten when I was 15, even weirder now that I'm 29.

As for me, I really only watched Part One in Anime. I just have a really hard time sitting through episodes of filler with nothing really happening