3406 replies to this topic

[mm123]

This back story plothole thing reminded me of this. http://www.cracked.c...ou-wont-notice/

[shadow_Uzumaki]

Man, all this talk about Naruto's background made me miss some characters that haven't popped up.....

Namely the Toads. I miss 'Bunta.

[Jake]

I do think there is more to be revealed surrounding Naruto's birth. Specifically, who betrayed Kushina. It's too suspicious that little bit with Sasuke's mom. I think that's a red herring of sorts, to lead the audience to think that it was Mikoto or the Uchiha's who betrayed her.

Sasuke's whole goal in life is redemption of his clan. How better to do that than to uncover a plot that may have been feeding misinformation to all sides? Anyway, there is quite a bit of information still to be filled in. Perhaps the coup could have been stoked by misinformation, and then the attack carried out by Tobi making it certain that the Uchihas were in on it — all for some as-of-yet unknown purpose by Madara.

Wasn't that addressed at the end of Obito's flashback, I mean I'll admit that it was addressed in a left handed way. Also wasn't the reason the Uchiha were considering a coup was because they were being suspected of being behind the Kyubi attack in the first place?

Yes, another plot hole. I'm pretty sure Minato is said to be of the Senju line, but I'm at a loss as to the connection. He's from the village, he's not an orphan, and yet he has no more family than Kushina does. I find it hard to believe that in a universe where skills are closely guarded within clans, that Minato's Yellow Flash technique was just a supernova flash-in-the-pan for a kid with no known family. But there is not a wisp of information about the Namikaze clan.

I don't remember seeing it anywhere that Minato was from the Senju clan, I know it was said that the Uzumaki clan share a common ancestor with the Senju clan but we haven't even seen anything about Minato's history other then his part in the Kakashi Gaiden and Kushina's flashback.

Remember according to Jiraiya, Minato was the most gifted Shinobi that ever lived, also wasn't it said somewhere that Minato invented the Flying Thunder God Jutsu?

Personally I don't think that there even is a Namikaze clan, I think that Kishi gave Minato the name because he didn't want Minato to be the only Hokage that didn't have a family name (I know Tsunade doesn't have a last name but we assume that it is Senju) especially since Minato is the father of the main character, plus look at all the powerful characters there are that don't come from a clan, Guy, Lee, Jiraiya, Orochimaru, Kisame, Konan, it really isn't that farfetched.

[Codus N]

I would have loved seeing her deal major damage with that axe. Could you imagine her swinging that thing around? Sasori would have been firewood by the end of their battle.

All we can do at this point is cross our fingers and hope that he doesn't lose sight of her. I don't think he has enough time left to give her the development that he had originally planned out for her, but I still hope that he lets her play a significant role in something before this series closes. Maybe as an epilogue, he'll do a time skip and show Sakura walking around with that axe, casting genjutsu on her enemies. However, I would be really disappointed to have not seen her completely developed while the series was ongoing.

EDIT: Enkai found the cover for me. This is it:

Agree so much on this . But that said, Sakura carrying an axe as her primary weapon would probably scare the living hell out of Naruto . I can just imagine it.. Sakura swings around the thing, destroying everything in her path, Naruto looks on with 5x the fear when he first saw her super strength after the Time-skip.

Killer Bee isn't what you considered, a "forced" character.

First off, he was concepted and created because his previous editor was a huge fan of wrestling. And since you forget to mentioned that Kishimoto had said that that he was friends with that said editor in the 2011 interview.

Basically, Bee is what I think is a "dedicated" character for all of the hard work that editor and Kishi had down together since the time (I think they had done all of the work since the beginning) for the manga.

I agree on this very much.

It's also very obvious throughout the series. Other than the fact that he's become Naruto's new sensei, in each chapter he appears, he always does something crazy awesome. It goes to show you how much Kishi loves his character (and by extension, his editor). Not only that, he's by far some of the best-developed character in the series.

I wish I had $20 for every time these concepts have been covered (from one angle or another) on this forum, but they certainly bear repeating. I truly appreciate that you've collected everything into such a coherent post, James, and given it a fresh spin.

People aren't going to go back and read this thread (as well as the retired threads) from the very beginning, so putting all this out here again -- and adding new insights based on current manga events in such a clear way -- is both useful and refreshing. I know it takes a lot of time and energy to do something like this, so I personally thank you for caring enough to not only approach things in a rational manner, but to encourage morale in the process.



Exactly. As I said a zillion few pages back, Sasuke's influence on both Naruto and Sakura reminds me of the Linkin Park song lyric, "the very worst part of you... is me." Naruto and Sakura's relationship -- and I mean the entire dynamic that encompasses what they mean to each other and not merely romance -- is continually and simultaneously strengthened and crippled by their respective feelings for Sasuke.

As much as I dislike Sasuke personally (his emo shtick bores the snot out of me), there's no getting around the fact that he is a key and inescapable element in Naruto and Sakura's path to each other. As has been said time and time again, it seems obvious that the final development of Naruto and Sakura, as well as NarutoxSakura, depends upon Sasuke's return and resolution. (And not Hinata, since she is irrelevant to the Team 7 dynamic.)



This is an interesting point. It often seems forgotten that Naruto has, in all practicality, grown up with little to no emotional foundation beneath him. We don't know who looked after his needs when he was a baby -- who changed his diapers, fed him, ensured his literal survival -- but what we were shown at the very beginning was that at age 11 he had apparently been living alone for some time. Alone. This is a HUGE thing.

It's not just a matter of being an orphan; there are a lot of orphans in this story, but most benefited early on from some kind of emotional bonding with parents or siblings before they were on their own. We have not been shown any evidence that Naruto had any emotional nurturing at all, and in fact the opposite has been suggested. Not to mention he was jinchuriki of the Kyubi, and all the adults (at least) in the village knew it. So it was a double negative -- no emotional nurturing that every child needs, while at the same time being ostracized and enduring extreme hostility.

We know that the Third, Iruka, and Kakashi -- at the very least -- were watching out for Naruto to some degree, but the truth is the poor kid didn't have even enough care and instruction to know he shouldn't consume spoiled milk, for Pete's sake. Much is made of Naruto's blockheadedness, but how could he not be dense? If he wasn't even schooled in common sense, imagine what else his upbringing was missing that most of the other characters took for granted -- hugs, being held, emotional encouragement, an understanding of relationships and love, a proper Birds and Bees lecture (except maybe from Jiraiya), you name it. We're given to understand that he had nothing and no one. The ultimate latchkey kid.

The point I'm trying to make is, the idea that Naruto has built thick emotional walls to hide behind makes complete sense -- not only from what we've been given to understand in the story, but from a classic psychological perspective. (My apologies to those who think it's impossible to impose Real World thinking on this story; Kishimoto is in the real world, and at least to some extent his ideas and presentation are rooted in that perspective.)

Naruto goes solely by instinct because that's literally all he has, and his first fledgling efforts to reach out -- to Sasuke and Sakura, in particular -- were a mixed bag of success and disappointment. Success in the sense that he proved himself worthy and determined so he was not ignored outright and positively impacted their lives, but disappointing in that neither Sasuke nor Sakura have (so far) been able or willing to break through Naruto's variety of defenses in order to meet his deeper emotional needs.

However, I believe that somehow, through some kind of Team 7 alchemy, Naruto will eventually get what he needs and wants most -- Sasuke's respect and friendship, and Sakura's heart.

*sigh*

I don't know. The manga seems to take on different meanings and levels of complexity when you interpret it from ground zero, from a ten-foot view, a hundred, or a thousand. At times it reminds me of one of those stereogram posters that on the surface looks like nothing special, but if you focus on it and relax you see a three-dimensional picture hidden within.

Do I read too much into a simple story? Maybe. But at this point I still believe it's more sophisticated than that, and that's why I am reluctant to criticize Kishimoto until everything is complete. I'm willing to wait and see what he does with the rest of the story. He's put a lot into it, after all, and it's likely to be the work that defines his career.

Wanna make that $50??

Anyways, this is one thing that has been a huge plothole so far in the series. And I very much agree with you on this. I know the anime isn't anything to go by, but that one Iruka filler in Shippuden probably helps explain on Naruto's upbringing. And pretty well, I might add.

Here's a rundown of that filler arc:

- Iruka is a bit hesitant on teaching Naruto, and still views him as the Kyuubi. He doesn't even accept Naruto as a person Just like the rest of the teachers.
- At the end of the arc, Iruka finally accepts him as his student. But still hasn't accepted him fully as a fellow citizen of Konoha. But at the very least, from that point on, he swore to watch over Naruto like the rest of his students equally. It's a small step towards his full acceptance of Naruto during the Mizuki incident.
- Shikaku (and likely the rest of Minato's close friends) lets his son, Shikamaru to play with Naruto. Most of the adults doesn't do this, but he and probably only a handful of his friends does this. This is so that they can help ease his loneliness a little.
- Iruka talks to Kakashi about his dilemma. And it's Kakashi who helps Iruka set himself straight. It's likely Kakashi's way of indirectly helping Naruto.

All in all, the episode would seem to imply that some of the adults, particularly who knows MinaKushi closely, has actually been helping Naruto in indirect ways, little things that helps ease his loneliness a little. That includes Kakashi.

To be honest, I'd like to see a review from you and James.
You guys inspire me so much...

Me too. I think we should do something like what MH does, making weekly review threads.

I was thinking yesterday that Obito's love of Rin really was not like Naruto's love of Sakura at all....

Obito's love of Rin was more like Sakura's love of Sasuke and, ironically enough, Hinata's love of Naruto.

It is a love that is one-sided, one-directional, and involves worship and action with the assumption that the other person will love them back, but never giving that person a chance or choice to express that before they act.

Obito never told Rin, and he is building this "world" out of love for her, but really she probably would abhor it. But her choice in the matter is not ever considered by Obito nor included in his twisted version of love.

Similarly, Sakura's love of Sasuke pushed her to try to keep him in the village and love her, even though he wanted neither.

And Hinata's love of Naruto drove her to act against his wishes, running out to not stop Pain, nearly getting herself and forcing Naruto into 8-tails mode. None of those things Naruto wanted, and all Hinata could say to excuse her actions was that she loved him.

So I think Obito's idolizing of Rin is not like Naruto love for Sakura (or hers for him). In fact, I think one of Obito's steps to redemption (which we know is inevitable) will be to acknowledge that what he is doing was never what Rin would have wanted.

And by surpassing that unhealthy one-sided love, Naruto/Sakura will triumph over the parallels of Obito-->Rin and Hinata-->Naruto. Their relationship — a healthy love based on mutual respect and equal partnership — trumps the manipulative need-based loves around them.

I disagree on this, very much.

The way Obito talked about acknowledgement to Naruto makes me think that Obito's love wasn't just about a crush. It was about falling in love with someone who, for the first time, in his life, saw him more than just an Uchiha. It was about losing someone who would be the only one to acknowledge you. And when he lost her, he had no one to acknowledge him anymore. Kakashi was implied, but it probably wasn't outright like Rin was. That, I think is what makes him a little more sympathetic and makes his downfall that much more understandable.

http://mangastream.c...ruto/26074227/7

BTW, I also wish that we could get an interview on Kishi asking "what would you have liked to change in this manga??"

I think it'd be funny if Kishimoto has not purposely allowed Sakura to be skipped over but realized this, purposely placed the dramatic year ending, and then rocks out 2013 as a huge Narusaku year. Hey, with all the Sakusasu and Naruhina in one year, he's gotta push towards the third fandom. Even if it's not for romantic reasons, he still has to respond to the big three

I hope so, I hope so, my friend

I wanted to make a thread about this. It's one of the most glaring and unfortunate plot holes in the series. I simply cannot figure out how to make Naruto's past make sense. Why didn't those people provide that instruction (particularly Kakashi)? Who payed for the housing and food? When he bombed the academy twice, did anyone step in to do something about it? Hell, how did he graduate with kids his ownn ages when he failed more than once and they, presumably did not? When the village treated him like crap why did these people who were supposed to watch over him do nothing? Actually, the bigger question is did they do nothing? We don't know at all (it seemed implied in the early going that no one besides Iruka and maybe the Third did anything, but who knows now) and the only way to make sense of it all is to presume something might have been coming from the shadows by these people because otherwise we have to wonder where the hell they were and what do they have to say about themselves for their inexplicable failure? Kakashi apparent absence prior to Team Seven is particularly curious given how he believed he failed Obito and who his Sensei was. But since, Naruto never presses the issue we don't know and such burning questions can only be answered by supposition. There is the low hanging fruit of the guard, but really, even without that mess it's hard to make sense of it all.

I think given how much influence this had on who he is now, it's just one of the things that shouldn't be left so open to speculation.

Look at my reply to KnS.

I rmember Kakashi and Joriya's first impression of Naruto. They were like "so he is Uzumaki Naruto huh? He grew up to be an interesting kid, indeed. "

I think that was clear foreshadowing. And I remember a cover with Kakashi sleeping in his bed, there was a team Minato picture on the table. Hinting that he was his sensei, and this was very early on.

While I think so, as well, but unfortunately, it leaves much to be desired.

@dl

I'm sure Batman mutters to himself, "hh. Sasuke does not know how to brood! Revenge is not the proper way to honor your family! JUSTICE is!"

AMEN!!

I dunno, if the threads running dry there's always the option of talking about Batman for ten pages.

I've done it before; just ask the others. =P


I would just like to say that if Sasuke had decided to dress up as an animal and just start fighting crime in Konoha because he thought Batman had the right idea I would totally be on board.


It never did make sense; it was basically Kishi hoping readers would take a leap of faith and suspend their disbelief, which was much easier back when the manga was actually pretty good.

Sasuke would be..... DUCKMAN!!!!

I agree completely with the bolded. I was also one of those people that thought Kishi was the man with the plan. I mean, it's possible he had it planned out, and strayed at some point, but it's definitely clear now he's making it up as he goes.

And like you said, it's not really a bad thing in and of itself. One of my favorite manga authors, Hiro Mashima, has basically admitted to making stuff up on the fly when he wrote Rave Master (and I believe Fairy Tail, as well). The big difference there though, is that the majority of the cast is so endearing, it's easy to deal with a plot hole here and there. Kishi on the other hand, putting all his stock in two characters, doesn't really have that advantage. So when the story fails...the whole manga kinda falls apart.

Agree so much on this. Had Kishi taken more time to focus on his other characters, it would've made his manga that much more enjoyable.

[shadow_Uzumaki]

Wasn't that addressed at the end of Obito's flashback, I mean I'll admit that it was addressed in a left handed way. Also wasn't the reason the Uchiha were considering a coup was because they were being suspected of being behind the Kyubi attack in the first place?



I don't remember seeing it anywhere that Minato was from the Senju clan, I know it was said that the Uzumaki clan share a common ancestor with the Senju clan but we haven't even seen anything about Minato's history other then his part in the Kakashi Gaiden and Kushina's flashback.

Remember according to Jiraiya, Minato was the most gifted Shinobi that ever lived, also wasn't it said somewhere that Minato invented the Flying Thunder God Jutsu?

Personally I don't think that there even is a Namikaze clan, I think that Kishi gave Minato the name because he didn't want Minato to be the only Hokage that didn't have a family name (I know Tsunade doesn't have a last name but we assume that it is Senju) especially since Minato is the father of the main character, plus look at all the powerful characters there are that don't come from a clan, Guy, Lee, Jiraiya, Orochimaru, Kisame, Konan, it really isn't that farfetched.

Yeah, Minato was basically a genius who invented the Hiraishin and Rasengan. He's also NOT from a notable clan. That's why he's famous as the Flying Thunder God.

I don't think he needs a prominent clan to be such a genius. Sakura's a prodigy and Tsunade's apprentice and she's not a famous clan member. Plus, you have those other characters you listed.

Edited by shadow_Uzumaki, 06 January 2013 - 09:52 AM.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

yeah, editors can have a huge influence on mangakas and their works history... For example, do you know that Kishimoto hadn't no intentions to showing some actions from Team Taka during the fight against the 8tails? Editor told him to do it. Even the character of Killer Bee himself.... Kishi forced by the editor to give him more background because he likes him (especially his rapping style and his wrestling moves).

You know it's a rumour right it's has never been confirmed it's the same as when they said that the editors forced kishi to revive the characters on the pain's arc and furthermore, editors can suggest not force, kishimoto as a team of 7 people working with him and the editor forcing stuff on their manga does not make any sense.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 06 January 2013 - 12:47 PM.

[James S Cassidy]

I wish I had $20 for every time these concepts have been covered (from one angle or another) on this forum, but they certainly bear repeating. I truly appreciate that you've collected everything into such a coherent post, James, and given it a fresh spin.

People aren't going to go back and read this thread (as well as the retired threads) from the very beginning, so putting all this out here again -- and adding new insights based on current manga events in such a clear way -- is both useful and refreshing. I know it takes a lot of time and energy to do something like this, so I personally thank you for caring enough to not only approach things in a rational manner, but to encourage morale in the process.

Thank you. I think every now and then we need to be reminded why NS was our chosen pairing. As we know, NS has developed a lot. Even when they fight with each other it is still them communicating. It is still them knowing one more aspect of each other. This is again what Hinata lacks. It is really hard to explain, when has Hinata really disagreed with Naruto? When has she had to knock Naruto down a peg because he gets too high of himself? Sakura has done it constantly and has grounded him.

You're welcome, but I do this all for fun. That's why I like coming here and giving these inputs and if I can raise someone spirits from it, then I am even more happy.

Exactly. As I said a zillion few pages back, Sasuke's influence on both Naruto and Sakura reminds me of the Linkin Park song lyric, "the very worst part of you... is me." Naruto and Sakura's relationship -- and I mean the entire dynamic that encompasses what they mean to each other and not merely romance -- is continually and simultaneously strengthened and crippled by their respective feelings for Sasuke.

As much as I dislike Sasuke personally (his emo shtick bores the snot out of me), there's no getting around the fact that he is a key and inescapable element in Naruto and Sakura's path to each other. As has been said time and time again, it seems obvious that the final development of Naruto and Sakura, as well as NarutoxSakura, depends upon Sasuke's return and resolution. (And not Hinata, since she is irrelevant to the Team 7 dynamic.)

Exactly. I dislike Sasuke too, but he is still the dynamic of Naruto's and Sakura's journey. You said it quite beautifully.

This is an interesting point. It often seems forgotten that Naruto has, in all practicality, grown up with little to no emotional foundation beneath him. We don't know who looked after his needs when he was a baby -- who changed his diapers, fed him, ensured his literal survival -- but what we were shown at the very beginning was that at age 11 he had apparently been living alone for some time. Alone. This is a HUGE thing.

It's not just a matter of being an orphan; there are a lot of orphans in this story, but most benefited early on from some kind of emotional bonding with parents or siblings before they were on their own. We have not been shown any evidence that Naruto had any emotional nurturing at all, and in fact the opposite has been suggested. Not to mention he was jinchuriki of the Kyubi, and all the adults (at least) in the village knew it. So it was a double negative -- no emotional nurturing that every child needs, while at the same time being ostracized and enduring extreme hostility.

We know that the Third, Iruka, and Kakashi -- at the very least -- were watching out for Naruto to some degree, but the truth is the poor kid didn't have even enough care and instruction to know he shouldn't consume spoiled milk, for Pete's sake. Much is made of Naruto's blockheadedness, but how could he not be dense? If he wasn't even schooled in common sense, imagine what else his upbringing was missing that most of the other characters took for granted -- hugs, being held, emotional encouragement, an understanding of relationships and love, a proper Birds and Bees lecture (except maybe from Jiraiya), you name it. We're given to understand that he had nothing and no one. The ultimate latchkey kid.

This was always an interesting topic I wanted to cover, but never could think of really how to start it. Glad you came up with it. His lack of true parental supervision seems to keep Naruto from going much farther than he could. As you said, he does things that betray common sense. I am don't know how much of an impact this might create, but it is worth thinking about. How can Naruto make big decisions when he is so out of touch when it comes to the small choices? I am glad Naruto got to meet his parents, albeit brief, but who else played a part?

I have to say that may be Iruka had a hand in it, but wasn't he also a child when his parents were killed? I have to go back and re-read that, but he was the closest thing to a father Naruto had in the world. I wish they played with that concept a little better. I wish Naruto confided in him about issues because while Iruka is young himself, he knows enough in the world to get by. Naruto is the kind of character who thrives on tough love. People don't understand this, but to coddle him like Hinata does is not what he needs. Naruto needs to be pushed because that is all he knows. As you said KnS, most of the adults treated him poorly and this caused him to believe that tough love is how the world works. So you can see that influence in him now. People yelled at him and such, but if they didn't he would not have gone as far as he did. Kakashi though had his own form of motivation that wasn't coddling, but wasn't tough love either. I will say that the tough love came from Sakura's end so Kakashi didn't need to fill that role.

I hope I am making some sense here. You are right KnS that Naruto's upbringing from early childhood could have had a massive impact on how he is as an adult now. Even compare Sasuke who had parents in his childhood and his father was that tough love. Always pushing Sasuke to be like his brother who he looked up to. Itachi even I would say coddled Sasuke in his early years too. Sure it is nothing sappy, but Itachi never looked down on him. Just teased him as brothers do. Mother probably coddled. We don't get to see much of that. Then Itachi destroys it and goes in EXTREME tough love and it causes Sasuke to go insane.

The point I'm trying to make is, the idea that Naruto has built thick emotional walls to hide behind makes complete sense -- not only from what we've been given to understand in the story, but from a classic psychological perspective. (My apologies to those who think it's impossible to impose Real World thinking on this story; Kishimoto is in the real world, and at least to some extent his ideas and presentation are rooted in that perspective.)

(This is just a note here, cause someone might bring it up, but while I did say I don't like to use real world thinking into it it's not like I don't do it if it fits. I guess what I was trying to say is that if the universe has it's own rules on certain subjects then we should follow that instead. For example, in our real world an adult is anywhere from 18-21. That's when they are first considered adults. In this world, none of the rookie 11 are 18, yet they are doing things that adults in our world would do. So in my mind, by their universe standards, they are adults.)

I would hate to contradict myself so I felt maybe I needed to elaborate.

Naruto goes solely by instinct because that's literally all he has, and his first fledgling efforts to reach out -- to Sasuke and Sakura, in particular -- were a mixed bag of success and disappointment. Success in the sense that he proved himself worthy and determined so he was not ignored outright and positively impacted their lives, but disappointing in that neither Sasuke nor Sakura have (so far) been able or willing to break through Naruto's variety of defenses in order to meet his deeper emotional needs.

However, I believe that somehow, through some kind of Team 7 alchemy, Naruto will eventually get what he needs and wants most -- Sasuke's respect and friendship, and Sakura's heart.

You reminded me of Fruits Basket. I don't know if you have ever read this manga, but there was a character named Yuki Sohma. Long story short, he saw Tohru as a motherly figure because of how caring she was. Although I disagree with this seeing how Yuki was older I believe, the idea of one character seeing another as a motherly figure might hold water here. I wonder if that is how Naruto sees Hinata. Crazy I know, but Hinata was always that kind of person. She would try to coddle him and tell him it is okay most of the time and I have to wonder if he sees her in such a light. I guess it wouldn't be so impossible. Of course I have no facts to this, but it's just something to think about.

Though I do fear this is how he would see Sakura, but this is just a writing mechanic I would hate to see. I doubt it, but it is a possibility.

You mentioned the alchemy of Sasuke and Sakura to Naruto. If I may add, I wonder what you think of this idea. Sasuke is everything that Naruto fears in himself. Letting hatred and revenge guide you and given in to darkness. Sasuke is everything that Naruto could have been and Naruto himself even make note of this. This could also be why Naruto says he would die with Sasuke, because it is like killing himself as well. It also makes sense why Naruto thinks he can't beat him since he reminds him of what he could have been. So he wants to save Sasuke, not just to save his friends, but to prove to himself that he can conquer his fears and that he won't give into them.

Sakura would be his love. Not just in the sense that he loves her, but his love for Sasuke itself. (Not that kind of love. Brotherly love.) This is why Sakura remains conflicted with her emotions as well. Like Naruto, she doesn't know what the right outcome is. Not that her emotions are lies or wrong, but that she doesn't know what is the right choice. I still believe she has made her choice in 573, but still this could be a foretelling of what Naruto is going to do. I would not be surprised if Sakura has changed her mind and saw Sasuke as a brother as well.

I could also say that Sakura is Naruto's determination. As we know she wears reds which is the color of determination. lol. Okay maybe this last part is stretching it, but it is an interesting circumstance given that his mother had red hair too and was strongly determined. As a joke, if only Naruto had red hair then he would have no problems in life. lol

*sigh*

I don't know. The manga seems to take on different meanings and levels of complexity when you interpret it from ground zero, from a ten-foot view, a hundred, or a thousand. At times it reminds me of one of those stereogram posters that on the surface looks like nothing special, but if you focus on it and relax you see a three-dimensional picture hidden within.

Do I read too much into a simple story? Maybe. But at this point I still believe it's more sophisticated than that, and that's why I am reluctant to criticize Kishimoto until everything is complete. I'm willing to wait and see what he does with the rest of the story. He's put a lot into it, after all, and it's likely to be the work that defines his career.

To be honest, even if its too much thinking it is a lot more fun. Plus it gives this forum something to think about and gets us being on a more positive track rather a negative one. So it's a win-win to me anyway.

Edited by James S Cassidy, 06 January 2013 - 01:17 PM.

[TouKen4Life3g]

Great posts you guys. It feels more alive in here and we still have a week left.

About the motherly relationship, hm, I wouldn't think that far. Possible, but maybe we are thinking too ahead. That said it's a good take on the situation we are seeing now. You know, I should comment on this brother-sister relationship. The funny thing is that they can turn into love. I don't know why I think about it now but lately, I have been seeing this happening. Heck, even the latest filler has that going on. Of course, if it's blood related, then it's a different story, unless there's something I'm unfamiliar with Japan. Anyway, that's what I wanted to say. To sum it up, even if they're like brother-sister relationship, it can lead to love.

[James S Cassidy]

Great posts you guys. It feels more alive in here and we still have a week left.

About the motherly relationship, hm, I wouldn't think that far. Possible, but maybe we are thinking too ahead. That said it's a good take on the situation we are seeing now. You know, I should comment on this brother-sister relationship. The funny thing is that they can turn into love. I don't know why I think about it now but lately, I have been seeing this happening. Heck, even the latest filler has that going on. Of course, if it's blood related, then it's a different story, unless there's something I'm unfamiliar with Japan. Anyway, that's what I wanted to say. To sum it up, even if they're like brother-sister relationship, it can lead to love.

I've always hated the idea of a "motherly relationship." I even hated it in Fruits Basket cause I felt it was such a cop-out to not make Yuki-Tohru a canon pairing. The one thing I would hate more than my pairing choice not being canon would be a stupid reason why it didn't become canon. I accept that maybe a character doesn't feel that way about the other, but the whole "I see you as my mother" is just a weird reason. However, it is not something that hasn't been done before.

Yeah a "brother-sisterly" love can develop into something more, but it all depends on when they first feel this kind of relationship. If they felt like a brother and sister in the beginning, then yes it has potential to be something more. If it it happens towards the end, doubtful it could lead to something greater. The same could be also said in reverse. Look at Quistis and Squalls relationship for example (although, this is more of quistis' POV.) She was "in love" with Squall in the beginning and even tried to be with him. Around the ending of the game, she comes to realize that the reason why she cared so much was not to be a lover, but to be the sister that Squall wanted so much after his "sister" left. She even has a thought about how she might have mistaken her love herself and comes to terms with it.

I was just throwing out ideas, though. Imagine how pissed the NH fans would be if Naruto saw Hinata as a mother.

Edited by James S Cassidy, 06 January 2013 - 02:23 PM.

[TouKen4Life3g]

I've always hated the idea of a "motherly relationship." I even hated it in Fruits Basket cause I felt it was such a cop-out to not make Yuki-Tohru a canon pairing. The one thing I would hate more than my pairing choice not being canon would be a stupid reason why it didn't become canon. I accept that maybe a character doesn't feel that way about the other, but the whole "I see you as my mother" is just a weird reason. However, it is not something that hasn't been done before.

Yeah a "brother-sisterly" love can develop into something more, but it all depends on when they first feel this kind of relationship. If they felt like a brother and sister in the beginning, then yes it has potential to be something more. If it it happens towards the end, doubtful it could lead to something greater. The same could be also said in reverse. Look at Quistis and Squalls relationship for example (although, this is more of quistis' POV.) She was "in love" with Squall in the beginning and even tried to be with him. Around the ending of the game, she comes to realize that the reason why she cared so much was not to be a lover, but to be the sister that Squall wanted so much after his "sister" left. She even has a thought about how she might have mistaken her love herself and comes to terms with it.

I was just throwing out ideas, though. Imagine how pissed the NH fans would be if Naruto saw Hinata as a mother.

Nice input.

Hm, I actually remember the whole mother relationship thing in Fruits Basket. Well, it can happen but I feel like that could be reserve to Shoujo material only, but I could be wrong. You are right about timing on brother-sister bond. I don't think NS is going to the route of sibling relationship and it's not because Naruto loves Sakura. It's just that Sakura has been presenting herself that there's something more between these two. If that's the case, then that bond will lead to love. It's only matter of these two (or more like Sakura) to realize themselves. That Squall part can happen to Hinata if anything because she loves Naruto with that nindo. It's more of inspiration, so it will make the most sense if she's the one to drop it altogether. I can't say she will think Naruto as her brother, but certainly, it shouldn't be love if you don't truly understand him as a person.

In any case, if Naruto and Sakura has been demonstrating brother-sister bond from part 1 and then show more than that in part 2, then the reasonable direction is love. At least that's what usually happens to the scenario, from my experience of course.

[James S Cassidy]

Nice input.

Hm, I actually remember the whole mother relationship thing in Fruits Basket. Well, it can happen but I feel like that could be reserve to Shoujo material only, but I could be wrong. You are right about timing on brother-sister bond. I don't think NS is going to the route of sibling relationship and it's not because Naruto loves Sakura. It's just that Sakura has been presenting herself that there's something more between these two. If that's the case, then that bond will lead to love. It's only matter of these two (or more like Sakura) to realize themselves. That Squall part can happen to Hinata if anything because she loves Naruto with that nindo. It's more of inspiration, so it will make the most sense if she's the one to drop it altogether. I can't say she will think Naruto as her brother, but certainly, it shouldn't be love if you don't truly understand him as a person.

In any case, if Naruto and Sakura has been demonstrating brother-sister bond from part 1 and then show more than that in part 2, then the reasonable direction is love. At least that's what usually happens to the scenario, from my experience of course.

Hmm Good Points. I agree.

I always wondered if Hinata would see Naruto as that brother figure myself. Especially how she is always looking up to him.

[tricksie]

Wasn't that addressed at the end of Obito's flashback, I mean I'll admit that it was addressed in a left handed way. Also wasn't the reason the Uchiha were considering a coup was because they were being suspected of being behind the Kyubi attack in the first place?

Exactly. What if this was due to misinformation on the part of Madara for some unknown purpose. And Sasuke's whole clan redemption thing could come from the final discovery that his clan was coerced and manipulated just like everyone else. So his clan is seen in a better light than before. Anyway, just a thought. There are some big pieces missing to that story. And Madara certainly had a vested interest in keeping the fires of clan hatred burning, so I wouldn't be surprised if he lied to them as well. (And if he did, it might tie in to some plot ending, like I said).

I don't remember seeing it anywhere that Minato was from the Senju clan, I know it was said that the Uzumaki clan share a common ancestor with the Senju clan but we haven't even seen anything about Minato's history other then his part in the Kakashi Gaiden and Kushina's flashback.

Remember according to Jiraiya, Minato was the most gifted Shinobi that ever lived, also wasn't it said somewhere that Minato invented the Flying Thunder God Jutsu?

Personally I don't think that there even is a Namikaze clan, I think that Kishi gave Minato the name because he didn't want Minato to be the only Hokage that didn't have a family name (I know Tsunade doesn't have a last name but we assume that it is Senju) especially since Minato is the father of the main character, plus look at all the powerful characters there are that don't come from a clan, Guy, Lee, Jiraiya, Orochimaru, Kisame, Konan, it really isn't that farfetched.

Yeah, Konoha is notorious for producing prodigies. They seem to grow on trees there.

I guess my point is that Minato is a big blank to us. No known clan. No backstory as to why he wanted to be Hokage. No word on why/how he was so brilliant that he was the youngest Hokage and developed jutsus that no had before and that people couldn't figure out since. He was a prodigy among prodigies. And he just comes out of nowhere.

And coming on the heels of Minato's backstory, I also have to wonder just how much Obito had to develop in the few short years to go from Minato's least-talented student, to a powerhouse who was able to pull the kyuubi out and prove to be his most formidable foe.

Like I said, there are lots of holes in the story. Sometimes the characters and timelines make sense, and others require a huge suspension of belief to make them possible.

(btw - I forgot, it's Tsunade who's from the Senju line, not Minato. And she's related to Naruto distantly through the Uzimaki clan.)

I disagree on this, very much.

The way Obito talked about acknowledgement to Naruto makes me think that Obito's love wasn't just about a crush. It was about falling in love with someone who, for the first time, in his life, saw him more than just an Uchiha. It was about losing someone who would be the only one to acknowledge you. And when he lost her, he had no one to acknowledge him anymore. Kakashi was implied, but it probably wasn't outright like Rin was. That, I think is what makes him a little more sympathetic and makes his downfall that much more understandable.

I'm not focusing on the person giving the love, instead I'm talking about the one who is the unwilling recipient.

Obito's love for Rin is much more like Sakura's for Sasuke and Hinata's for Naruto, than the mutual Naruto-Sakura love.

Obito can do anything he wants and say it's out of love for Rin. But that doesn't change the fact that Rin is a non-participating party here. His actions are based on selfish motivations, wrapped in the excuse of love.

Sasuke told Sakura he didn't want her actions driven by love. Naruto told Hinata the same thing. We don't have the benefit of knowing how Rin might have taken Obito's love when he was a child, but I'd be willing to bet she would not want him destroying the real world to create a dream world so Obito can have his way as an adult.

Obito doesn't have my sympathy. He is deranged. Only the victims of his sick "love" have my sympathies. However I do think finally acknowledging that if he truly loved Rin he will honor her memory and act the way she would have wanted him to, not continue on Madara's path. I think that is where his redemption will come in. When he finally acts true to himself and honoring of his old teammates.

And I'm beginning to think that the Obito-Rin/Naruto-Sakur parallel is a bit of a red herring, meant to muddy the waters, not clear it.

[naruto-z]

I have always wondered about Hiruzen's statement to Kakashi that "he had a nose for those types" like Naruto. It implies that he works well with either kids or other teammates who are a little hyper/odd. But nothing Kakashi does strikes me as mentoring or patient with other people (except Guy, I suppose).

At any rate, there should have been more there to Kakashi's being united with his sense's son — not just "you have a nose for these types."


I do think there is more to be revealed surrounding Naruto's birth. Specifically, who betrayed Kushina. It's too suspicious that little bit with Sasuke's mom. I think that's a red herring of sorts, to lead the audience to think that it was Mikoto or the Uchiha's who betrayed her.

Sasuke's whole goal in life is redemption of his clan. How better to do that than to uncover a plot that may have been feeding misinformation to all sides? Anyway, there is quite a bit of information still to be filled in. Perhaps the coup could have been stoked by misinformation, and then the attack carried out by Tobi making it certain that the Uchihas were in on it — all for some as-of-yet unknown purpose by Madara.


Yes, another plot hole. I'm pretty sure Minato is said to be of the Senju line, but I'm at a loss as to the connection. He's from the village, he's not an orphan, and yet he has no more family than Kushina does. I find it hard to believe that in a universe where skills are closely guarded within clans, that Minato's Yellow Flash technique was just a supernova flash-in-the-pan for a kid with no known family. But there is not a wisp of information about the Namikaze clan.

I think it's possible that Hiruzen was hinting at Kakashi's relationship with Obito. I could see Obito being the hyperactive type. Sadly, there relationship wasn't quite good but that's just another plothole. Remember, Kakashi never passed any kids so he couldn't have tutored anyone.

And wow, I forgot about Minato's Senju bloodline. It's been so long that I forgot because Kishi has made no mention of it. Guess it'll come out in the long run during the fight with Sasuke since they're "destined" to fight

Yeah, Minato was basically a genius who invented the Hiraishin and Rasengan. He's also NOT from a notable clan. That's why he's famous as the Flying Thunder God.

I don't think he needs a prominent clan to be such a genius. Sakura's a prodigy and Tsunade's apprentice and she's not a famous clan member. Plus, you have those other characters you listed.

See, I've always had a problem with that. Especially after seeing Madara fight Kages and seeing the revealing of past characters such as the last Raikage and all the old kages. It just seems like this entire current generation is now as "talented" (keyword is not strong) as the last generation. Sure, Naruto is beastly strong and Sasuke is strong. But where's the talent. Neither two, not even Sasuke, has invented any jutsu. Not of the Konoha 7 has invented jutsu. They've only built on top of the past jutsus which is, by the way, very good. But no talents in terms of creating jutsu. Made they don't need to, but it just seems like a big mis-step in power.

Edited by naruto-z, 06 January 2013 - 03:55 PM.

[tricksie]

More wandering trains of thought.... So, I was thinking that Chapter 615 seemed sooooo fanficcy, so unreal...that what if Obito is already beginning his genjutsu? What if Hinata is seeing what she wants to see? Not necessarily Neji's death, but the remedy of it by the fruition of something she has wanted for so long. Holding Naruto's hand and standing beside him.

What if the genjutsu is already slowly being set in motion? And this Hinata-centric chapter is part of that? In the beginning it's reality, but by the end maybe the illusion was slowly seeping in.

Just a wild thought, but still.... What if everyone slowly started thinking that they didn't want anyone else to die, and that if they just went home, everything would be as they wanted it to be...?

And then, just like in RtN, Sakura would be the only one left on the battlefield untouched, knowing everything around her was wrong.

Anyway, just a thought based on how unexpected this chapter end up being. The images at the end were tailor-made to Hinata's real-life hopes and dreams, that seeing them almost seemed surreal.

[Codus N]

More wandering trains of thought.... So, I was thinking that Chapter 615 seemed sooooo fanficcy, so unreal...that what if Obito is already beginning his genjutsu? What if Hinata is seeing what she wants to see? Not necessarily Neji's death, but the remedy of it by the fruition of something she has wanted for so long. Holding Naruto's hand and standing beside him.

What if the genjutsu is already slowly being set in motion? And this Hinata-centric chapter is part of that? In the beginning it's reality, but by the end maybe the illusion was slowly seeping in.

Just a wild thought, but still.... What if everyone slowly started thinking that they didn't want anyone else to die, and that if they just went home, everything would be as they wanted it to be...?

And then, just like in RtN, Sakura would be the only one left on the battlefield untouched, knowing everything around her was wrong.

Anyway, just a thought based on how unexpected this chapter end up being. The images at the end were tailor-made to Hinata's real-life hopes and dreams, that seeing them almost seemed surreal.

Ah, I see. (responding to your earlier post) so you weren't talking about Obito's love itself, but rather how Rin factors into this as a whole. Ok, I understand.

On to the next point.

As much as I would love this to happen, and that this is just one geniusly crafted massive troll, I don't think it's likely. Madara said it himself, in order for the Infinite Tsukuyomi to work, one of them needs to become the Jinchuuriki and wait until its final transformation before sealing it. So, I don't think the plan has been executed yet. Unless of course, you're talking about limited Tsukuyomi in RtN, then it is possible.

But the problem is, if Kishi is shelling out the character developments for the K-11 now, it would be a massive troll to them if their development was nothing more than just a genjutsu. This would leave a lot of fans very angry with Kishi.

[James S Cassidy]

Anyway, just a thought based on how unexpected this chapter end up being. The images at the end were tailor-made to Hinata's real-life hopes and dreams, that seeing them almost seemed surreal.

Funny enough, I have a crack theory that this has all been a Genjutsu of some sort since Naruto met Itachi for the first time in Part 2. It was so far out there that it is similar to the idea that Naruto has been in a coma this whole time and the nly way for him to wake up from it is to defeat Sasuke aka himself.

I thought of turning it into some kind of CreepyPasta Naruto story.

Edited by James S Cassidy, 06 January 2013 - 04:54 PM.

[Poison_In_Your_Coffee]

Alright, so I'm reposting something that got buried a few pages back, but I'm curious to see if anyone thinks the same:

I was thinking that Obito's love of Rin really was not like Naruto's love of Sakura at all....

Obito's love of Rin was more like Sakura's love of Sasuke and, ironically enough, Hinata's love of Naruto.

It is a love that is one-sided, one-directional, and involves worship and action with the assumption that the other person will love them back, but never giving that person a chance or choice to express that before they act.

Obito never told Rin, and he is building this "world" out of love for her, but really she probably would abhor it. But her choice in the matter is not ever considered by Obito nor included in his twisted version of love.

Similarly, Sakura's love of Sasuke pushed her to try to keep him in the village and love her, even though he wanted neither.

And Hinata's love of Naruto drove her to act against his wishes, running out to not stop Pain, nearly getting herself and forcing Naruto into 8-tails mode. None of those things Naruto wanted, and all Hinata could say to excuse her actions was that she loved him.

So I think Obito's idolizing of Rin is not like Naruto love for Sakura (or hers for him). In fact, I think one of Obito's steps to redemption (which we know is inevitable) will be to acknowledge that what he is doing was never what Rin would have wanted.

And by surpassing that unhealthy one-sided love, Naruto/Sakura will triumph over the parallels of Obito-->Rin and Hinata-->Naruto. Their relationship — a healthy love based on mutual respect and equal partnership — trumps the manipulative need-based loves around them.

I feel like you are trying to do some pre-emptive damage control. I feel like you are setting Obito's love for Rin as something obsessive and selfish so just in case Obito *does* declare that NH resembles ObiRin, you now have a good excuse to slam Hinata as selfish and obsessed with Naruto, "just like Obito with Rin".

I agree that Obito is obsessed with Rin and very selfish in his motivations, goals and dreams. Just look at ch 614. Obito has the chance to sacrifice his life to revive Madara so he can make the dream world happen. And what does Obito do? Refuse. I think it's because Obito does not truly want the dream world for anyone else but himself. If he is dead, he can't see Rin again. He does not want to revive her so *she* will be happy; no, Obito wants to revive her so *he* will be happy by having her around once again. Contrast Obito's behaviour in ch 614 with Hinata's (and Neji's) behaviour in the same chapter. Hinata is willing to die to save Naruto. She would rather be dead than see Naruto killed. If anything, Hinata is the anti-Obito. Chapter later she even gives a speech to counter Obito and his taunting. This is the ultimate difference between The Ninja Alliance and The ObiMadara Union: the Ninja Alliance works together, supporting each other, for the same goal and are willing to die to achieve this. Madara and Obito would never die for each other and struggle in the team work department.

Sakura's and Hinata's actions in your examples were always because they felt their actions were good for their love interests. Sakura was trying to make Sasuke stay home so he would be safe and with his friends and forget his plans for revenge. And let's face it: she was right: Sasuke should not have left and everything he has done since leaving has taken him further down a very bad path. Sakura was also willing to kill Sasuke: she would rather never be with him than see him suffering in the darkness. She would rather stand in his grave and know that he was in peace rather than indulge her own desire to live a life with him. And once again, you try to cast Hinata's very selfless sacrifice in the Pain arc as something bad and selfish. I don't even know what to say to that, honestly. Obito does not ever stop to think how Rin might feel about his actions, and as I said, is not willing to die to revive her. He is not acting out of selfless love for Rin.

Also, SS and NH are really nothing like ObiRin. Whatever the way you try to cast the characters for the roles of Obito and Rin, the similarities will be very superficial (Hinata is a girl, Rin is one, too!). Even I, a SS shipper and someone who doesn't like NS, can see the parallel between ObiRin and NS. Anyone can be "Naruto's Rin" as long as Rin is defined as someone important who died. But not every character or a relationship can parallel ObiRin. NS has the most similarities with ObiRin. Even the one-sidedness is there: Sakura is not in love with Naruto. Only if you already assume NS to be canon, can you say that NS is not one-sided. This is, IMO, assuming quite a bit too much.

Edited by Poison_In_Your_Coffee, 06 January 2013 - 05:00 PM.

[Codus N]

@James:
Agreed. While it does have some merit, it just seems a bit too far out to me.

Edited by Codus N, 06 January 2013 - 04:59 PM.

[sushi.]

Could be a good fanfic though

Or just a fanfic when the author is rewriting everything after the Kage summit arc, when all got downhill.

[naruto-z]

If this entire war arc has been one giant genjutsu then I will officially call Kishimoto the god and the best troller EVER. But in retrospect, I think I'd really enjoy that because this is something we've seen Kishi enjoy doing. Just think back to the Sasuke/Itachi fight. It was pretty confusing at first. Now just think about that on a much larger scale.

Realistically, I wouldn't mind the last part of Hinata all being genjutsu. That was a super biased statement but I think that would be really nice still plot wise. A big end of the year plot twist that would really make this manga interesting again. It's been far too straightforward lately.

As for character development, even if it was just a genjutsu, Hinata would have still matured (hypothetically) from her experience.