3406 replies to this topic

[KnS]

I wanted to make a thread about this. It's one of the most glaring and unfortunate plot holes in the series. I simply cannot figure out how to make Naruto's past make sense. Why didn't those people provide that instruction (particularly Kakashi)? Who payed for the housing and food? When he bombed the academy twice, did anyone step in to do something about it? Hell, how did he graduate with kids his ownn ages when he failed more than once and they, presumably did not? When the village treated him like crap why did these people who were supposed to watch over him do nothing? Actually, the bigger question is did they do nothing? We don't know at all (it seemed implied in the early going that no one besides Iruka and maybe the Third did anything, but who knows now) and the only way to make sense of it all is to presume something might have been coming from the shadows by these people because otherwise we have to wonder where the hell they were and what do they have to say about themselves for their inexplicable failure? Kakashi apparent absence prior to Team Seven is particularly curious given how he believed he failed Obito and who his Sensei was. But since, Naruto never presses the issue we don't know and such burning questions can only be answered by supposition. There is the low hanging fruit of the guard, but really, even without that mess it's hard to make sense of it all.

I think given how much influence this had on who he is now, it's just one of the things that shouldn't be left so open to speculation.

The omission of these details has driven me crazy from the very beginning.

I included Kakashi as one of Naruto's caretakers on my earlier post, but his involvement was actually later -- not during Naruto's apparently lonely formative years. Back in chapter #3 we see Hiruzen and Kakashi in Naruto's apartment observing the mess and the spoiled milk, and Kakashi says, "So this is where Naruto lives...?" Clearly he had NOT been involved in Naruto's life before Hiruzen decided to assign Naruto into his care as a part of Team 7.

That leaves Hiruzen and Iruka as the main responsible parties (that we know of) for Naruto's early care. In chapter #1 Naruto makes the comment, "Like I care, it's not like I have anyone to go home to..." Iruka looks sad/guilty/depressed, and later, when Mizuki threatens and berates Naruto, Iruka says:

My parents...after they died there was nobody to compliment or acknowledge me... I always acted like an idiot just to get people's attenton. Since I wasn't good at things like learning and doing homework, it was better than being nothing, so I kept acting like an idiot. It was so painful. Naruto, you also must have been in a lot of pain. I'm sorry, Naruto, if I only did a better job... you wouldn't have to feel like this.

Naruto must have been in a lot of pain? Must have? Really? Iruka figured that out just then? With a heavy dose of irony, Iruka's own inability to comprehend, anticipate, and prevent Naruto's pain sooner only proved that neither had the training or socialization to understand the basics of human need. They were a lot alike, and Iruka was better off since he'd had his parents for a while before they were killed.

And while Iruka might have been cast in the role of big brother to Naruto, I seriously doubt he was the one feeding Naruto and changing his diapers from birth to whenever he began living alone. But who was it? Hiruzen's wife, Biwako, and Taji (the other midwife present at Naruto's birth) were both killed by Obito. Who did Hiruzen entrust with baby Naruto's basic needs?

I had thought maybe we'd get the answers during Kushina's flashbacks to the birth, but no. Kishimoto shows us panels of Kushina meeting Mikoto and baby Sasuke. We find out Sasuke is named after the Third's father. Whoop-de-doo. We later see Itachi holding baby Sasuke, commenting on the fearsome chakra of the Kyubi. Kishimoto shows us those specific but seemingly unnecessary focuses on Sasuke, but fails to provide background information on Hiruzen's reaction to his wife's death and his thoughts on how he was going to care for Naruto going forward? I don't get it.

It seems to me that considering Obito's direct participation in the events of the night of Naruto's orphaning and his subsequent spy network, Obito is the only character still in play who might have the information on what happened and how Naruto was raised, but that's a super long shot. I think it's too much to hope that he'll provide such details if/when he gets a TnJ.

If an explanation never materializes, then I guess Kishimoto considers the details of Naruto's childhood to be irrelevant to the plot, and that he's given us enough to understand Naruto's psychopathology and take it face value.

[dl316bh]

Is it just me or is this thread feeling kind of dry? I can't wait until the next chapter is released. We're out of juice~

I dunno, if the threads running dry there's always the option of talking about Batman for ten pages.

I've done it before; just ask the others. =P

I'm sure Batman mutters to himself, "hh. Sasuke does not know how to brood! Revenge is not the proper way to honor your family! JUSTICE is!"

I would just like to say that if Sasuke had decided to dress up as an animal and just start fighting crime in Konoha because he thought Batman had the right idea I would totally be on board.

I simply cannot figure out how to make Naruto's past make sense.

It never did make sense; it was basically Kishi hoping readers would take a leap of faith and suspend their disbelief, which was much easier back when the manga was actually pretty good.

Edited by dl316bh, 06 January 2013 - 04:35 AM.

[Phantom_999]

Indeed. Naruto has never shown that Sakura's feelings for Sasuke "bothered" him on the surface. Sure He(and WE) may be disappointed if it comes to that but he won't fuss about it, say life is unfair, and kill himself. H's already dealt with the pain of not being recognized as a person so of course being rejected; even by the love of his life will not be anything as extreme as that, even if it is a significant part of his Character. And I mean that his devotion to Sakura IS a big part of his character whether they are a couple or not.

[CloudMountainJuror]

I would just like to say that if Sasuke had decided to dress up as an animal and just start fighting crime in Konoha because he thought Batman had the right idea I would totally be on board.

omg yes

[dl316bh]

omg yes

I smell a spinoff~!

[Phantom_999]

omg yes

I smell a spinoff~!

What kind of animal though? Bats are TOO COOL cool for him.

The omission of these details has driven me crazy from the very beginning.

I included Kakashi as one of Naruto's caretakers on my earlier post, but his involvement was actually later -- not during Naruto's apparently lonely formative years. Back in chapter #3 we see Hiruzen and Kakashi in Naruto's apartment observing the mess and the spoiled milk, and Kakashi says, "So this is where Naruto lives...?" Clearly he had NOT been involved in Naruto's life before Hiruzen decided to assign Naruto into his care as a part of Team 7.

That leaves Hiruzen and Iruka as the main responsible parties (that we know of) for Naruto's early care. In chapter #1 Naruto makes the comment, "Like I care, it's not like I have anyone to go home to..." Iruka looks sad/guilty/depressed, and later, when Mizuki threatens and berates Naruto, Iruka says:


Naruto must have been in a lot of pain? Must have? Really? Iruka figured that out just then? With a heavy dose of irony, Iruka's own inability to comprehend, anticipate, and prevent Naruto's pain sooner only proved that neither had the training or socialization to understand the basics of human need. They were a lot alike, and Iruka was better off since he'd had his parents for a while before they were killed.

And while Iruka might have been cast in the role of big brother to Naruto, I seriously doubt he was the one feeding Naruto and changing his diapers from birth to whenever he began living alone. But who was it? Hiruzen's wife, Biwako, and Taji (the other midwife present at Naruto's birth) were both killed by Obito. Who did Hiruzen entrust with baby Naruto's basic needs?

I had thought maybe we'd get the answers during Kushina's flashbacks to the birth, but no. Kishimoto shows us panels of Kushina meeting Mikoto and baby Sasuke. We find out Sasuke is named after the Third's father. Whoop-de-doo. We later see Itachi holding baby Sasuke, commenting on the fearsome chakra of the Kyubi. Kishimoto shows us those specific but seemingly unnecessary focuses on Sasuke, but fails to provide background information on Hiruzen's reaction to his wife's death and his thoughts on how he was going to care for Naruto going forward? I don't get it.

It seems to me that considering Obito's direct participation in the events of the night of Naruto's orphaning and his subsequent spy network, Obito is the only character still in play who might have the information on what happened and how Naruto was raised, but that's a super long shot. I think it's too much to hope that he'll provide such details if/when he gets a TnJ.

If an explanation never materializes, then I guess Kishimoto considers the details of Naruto's childhood to be irrelevant to the plot, and that he's given us enough to understand Naruto's psychopathology and take it face value.

It's called "Back story not worth delving into details about"

Edited by Phantom_999, 06 January 2013 - 04:57 AM.

[dl316bh]

What kind of animal though? Bats are TOO COOL cool for him.

Sasuke IS... The Black Talon!

[CloudMountainJuror]

Sasuke IS... The Black Talon!

[KnS]

Obito never told Rin, and he is building this "world" out of love for her, but really she probably would abhor it. But her choice in the matter is not ever considered by Obito nor included in his twisted version of love.

Agreed, and this is a big part of why I don't find Obito a particularly sympathetic character. For me it's a matter of consistency. I thought Sakura's desperate attempt to cling to Sasuke for her own desires without understanding who he was and what he wanted was pathetic. The same for Hinata's actions toward Naruto. Obito's twisted love, that to our knowledge might never have been returned, shows a distinct absence of consideration for Rin's feelings.

And by surpassing that unhealthy one-sided love, Naruto/Sakura will triumph over the parallels of Obito-->Rin and Hinata-->Naruto. Their relationship — a healthy love based on mutual respect and equal partnership — trumps the manipulative need-based loves around them.

From your keyboard to Kishimoto's storyboard.

[Phantom_999]

Sasuke IS... The Black Talon!

So it shall be!!

[shadow_Uzumaki]

It never did make sense; it was basically Kishi hoping readers would take a leap of faith and suspend their disbelief, which was much easier back when the manga was actually pretty good.

I wouldn't have thought about it this much until Jiraiya was revealed to be Naruto's Godfather.

Don't get me wrong, I actually like that revelation, but it raised questions on who took care of Naruto beforehand for me, at least.

Isn't it any wonder that people always made fanfics about Naruto being abused by the villagers?


Sasuke can't be chicken-themed, Abridged!Sasuke's archnemesis is Clucky the Chicken!

He could be duck-themed, his hair looks like a duck's fluffy tail feathers.

[dl316bh]

Sasuke can't be chicken-themed, Abridged!Sasuke's archnemesis is Clucky the Chicken!

Who can blame him? I mean, ask Link. When chickens get pissed they become like demon chickens.

He could be duck-themed, his hair looks like a duck's fluffy tail feathers.

If his nemesis is a chicken, he should be, like, Sasuke the Butcher or something.

[Nate River]

What kind of animal though? Bats are TOO COOL cool for him.



It's called "Back story not worth delving into details about"

It absolute is worth delving into because his back story is what drives his current behavior. It's a huge part of who he is and was the primary device used to elicit sympathy for the hero from the very beginning. It's also wasted development for the characters we would have expected to have been there. I don't expect it to be flawless, but the contradictions are just so glaring.

I had thought maybe we'd get the answers during Kushina's flashbacks to the birth, but no. Kishimoto shows us panels of Kushina meeting Mikoto and baby Sasuke. We find out Sasuke is named after the Third's father. Whoop-de-doo. We later see Itachi holding baby Sasuke, commenting on the fearsome chakra of the Kyubi. Kishimoto shows us those specific but seemingly unnecessary focuses on Sasuke, but fails to provide background information on Hiruzen's reaction to his wife's death and his thoughts on how he was going to care for Naruto going forward? I don't get it.

It seems to me that considering Obito's direct participation in the events of the night of Naruto's orphaning and his subsequent spy network, Obito is the only character still in play who might have the information on what happened and how Naruto was raised, but that's a super long shot. I think it's too much to hope that he'll provide such details if/when he gets a TnJ.

If an explanation never materializes, then I guess Kishimoto considers the details of Naruto's childhood to be irrelevant to the plot, and that he's given us enough to understand Naruto's psychopathology and take it face value.

I always wondered if Kushina being the carrier of Kyuubi was well-know. They were obviously trying to hide the due date, but....

I doubt as well because the remaining question surrounding his past have generally be left by the way side in Part 2.

[sushi.]

Didn't Minato and Kushina have any family that could take care of Naruto? (Parents, siblings, cousins..) At least Minato does not look like an orphan. Kushina was transferred, but sill..plothole!

[dl316bh]

It absolute is worth delving into because his back story is what drives his current behavior. It's a huge part of who he is and was the primary device used to elicit sympathy for the hero from the very beginning. It's also wasted development for the characters we would have expected to have been there. I don't expect it to be flawless, but the contradictions are just so glaring.

Honestly, Nate, I think it comes down to "he didn't really think that one through before he put it to paper". Everybody seemed under the impression that Kishi had some kind of plan - and for a good while I thought so too - but I felt it became obvious a long time ago that Kishi's been making it up as he went along. Which is not necessarily a diss, but it still seems obvious that he didn't have anything planned out. It's one of those big, glaring plot holes you could drive a truck through and I don't think there's a way he could fill in the gaps without making some characters - if not the whole village - look really bad.

[tricksie]

The omission of these details has driven me crazy from the very beginning.

I included Kakashi as one of Naruto's caretakers on my earlier post, but his involvement was actually later -- not during Naruto's apparently lonely formative years. Back in chapter #3 we see Hiruzen and Kakashi in Naruto's apartment observing the mess and the spoiled milk, and Kakashi says, "So this is where Naruto lives...?" Clearly he had NOT been involved in Naruto's life before Hiruzen decided to assign Naruto into his care as a part of Team 7.

I have always wondered about Hiruzen's statement to Kakashi that "he had a nose for those types" like Naruto. It implies that he works well with either kids or other teammates who are a little hyper/odd. But nothing Kakashi does strikes me as mentoring or patient with other people (except Guy, I suppose).

At any rate, there should have been more there to Kakashi's being united with his sense's son — not just "you have a nose for these types."

That leaves Hiruzen and Iruka as the main responsible parties (that we know of) for Naruto's early care. In chapter #1 Naruto makes the comment, "Like I care, it's not like I have anyone to go home to..." Iruka looks sad/guilty/depressed, and later, when Mizuki threatens and berates Naruto, Iruka says:

Naruto must have been in a lot of pain? Must have? Really? Iruka figured that out just then? With a heavy dose of irony, Iruka's own inability to comprehend, anticipate, and prevent Naruto's pain sooner only proved that neither had the training or socialization to understand the basics of human need. They were a lot alike, and Iruka was better off since he'd had his parents for a while before they were killed.

And while Iruka might have been cast in the role of big brother to Naruto, I seriously doubt he was the one feeding Naruto and changing his diapers from birth to whenever he began living alone. But who was it? Hiruzen's wife, Biwako, and Taji (the other midwife present at Naruto's birth) were both killed by Obito. Who did Hiruzen entrust with baby Naruto's basic needs?

I had thought maybe we'd get the answers during Kushina's flashbacks to the birth, but no. Kishimoto shows us panels of Kushina meeting Mikoto and baby Sasuke. We find out Sasuke is named after the Third's father. Whoop-de-doo. We later see Itachi holding baby Sasuke, commenting on the fearsome chakra of the Kyubi. Kishimoto shows us those specific but seemingly unnecessary focuses on Sasuke, but fails to provide background information on Hiruzen's reaction to his wife's death and his thoughts on how he was going to care for Naruto going forward? I don't get it.

It seems to me that considering Obito's direct participation in the events of the night of Naruto's orphaning and his subsequent spy network, Obito is the only character still in play who might have the information on what happened and how Naruto was raised, but that's a super long shot. I think it's too much to hope that he'll provide such details if/when he gets a TnJ.

If an explanation never materializes, then I guess Kishimoto considers the details of Naruto's childhood to be irrelevant to the plot, and that he's given us enough to understand Naruto's psychopathology and take it face value.

I do think there is more to be revealed surrounding Naruto's birth. Specifically, who betrayed Kushina. It's too suspicious that little bit with Sasuke's mom. I think that's a red herring of sorts, to lead the audience to think that it was Mikoto or the Uchiha's who betrayed her.

Sasuke's whole goal in life is redemption of his clan. How better to do that than to uncover a plot that may have been feeding misinformation to all sides? Anyway, there is quite a bit of information still to be filled in. Perhaps the coup could have been stoked by misinformation, and then the attack carried out by Tobi making it certain that the Uchihas were in on it — all for some as-of-yet unknown purpose by Madara.

Didn't Minato and Kushina have any family that could take care of Naruto? (Parents, siblings, cousins..) At least Minato does not look like an orphan. Kushina was transferred, but sill..plothole!

Yes, another plot hole. I'm pretty sure Minato is said to be of the Senju line, but I'm at a loss as to the connection. He's from the village, he's not an orphan, and yet he has no more family than Kushina does. I find it hard to believe that in a universe where skills are closely guarded within clans, that Minato's Yellow Flash technique was just a supernova flash-in-the-pan for a kid with no known family. But there is not a wisp of information about the Namikaze clan.

[Super Boom]

Honestly, Nate, I think it comes down to "he didn't really think that one through before he put it to paper". Everybody seemed under the impression that Kishi had some kind of plan - and for a good while I thought so too - but I felt it became obvious a long time ago that Kishi's been making it up as he went along. Which is not necessarily a diss, but it still seems obvious that he didn't have anything planned out. It's one of those big, glaring plot holes you could drive a truck through and I don't think there's a way he could fill in the gaps without making some characters - if not the whole village - look really bad.

I agree completely with the bolded. I was also one of those people that thought Kishi was the man with the plan. I mean, it's possible he had it planned out, and strayed at some point, but it's definitely clear now he's making it up as he goes.

And like you said, it's not really a bad thing in and of itself. One of my favorite manga authors, Hiro Mashima, has basically admitted to making stuff up on the fly when he wrote Rave Master (and I believe Fairy Tail, as well). The big difference there though, is that the majority of the cast is so endearing, it's easy to deal with a plot hole here and there. Kishi on the other hand, putting all his stock in two characters, doesn't really have that advantage. So when the story fails...the whole manga kinda falls apart.

[tricksie]

I agree completely with the bolded. I was also one of those people that thought Kishi was the man with the plan. I mean, it's possible he had it planned out, and strayed at some point, but it's definitely clear now he's making it up as he goes.

And like you said, it's not really a bad thing in and of itself. One of my favorite manga authors, Hiro Mashima, has basically admitted to making stuff up on the fly when he wrote Rave Master (and I believe Fairy Tail, as well). The big difference there though, is that the majority of the cast is so endearing, it's easy to deal with a plot hole here and there. Kishi on the other hand, putting all his stock in two characters, doesn't really have that advantage. So when the story fails...the whole manga kinda falls apart.

I tend to think the plan he came up with at 22-24 is worlds different than the one he is writing now at 39.

That's a world of difference. I think he's got the big things mapped out. But I think the finer details he tends to fudge, and honestly I think things like Naruto's childhood backstory he has just let go of. There is no way he can make it work - and most importantly, there's not real value to the story.

I would love to see an interview with him where he talks about the challenges of writing/illustrating a serial work for this long, and what he would have changed from the beginning had he known it would still be going 10+ years later.

[dl316bh]

I agree completely with the bolded. I was also one of those people that thought Kishi was the man with the plan. I mean, it's possible he had it planned out, and strayed at some point, but it's definitely clear now he's making it up as he goes.

And like you said, it's not really a bad thing in and of itself. One of my favorite manga authors, Hiro Mashima, has basically admitted to making stuff up on the fly when he wrote Rave Master (and I believe Fairy Tail, as well). The big difference there though, is that the majority of the cast is so endearing, it's easy to deal with a plot hole here and there. Kishi on the other hand, putting all his stock in two characters, doesn't really have that advantage. So when the story fails...the whole manga kinda falls apart.

This is actually one reason - of many - that led to my disillusionment with the manga long ago.

It's hard to explain, but I'll attempt to by saying it's easier to roll with the punches when you believe the author has a plan. Whether Kishi ever did or not is up for debate - and only he can answer that one - but for the longest time it seemed like he had one, as things unfolded in a fairly organic way and you could trace a path from the beginning on through that made sense in the world he'd created. Writers with a plan are fun, because everything has meaning, which engenders a lot of debate, analysis and discussion. Everything could be a clue; and even if some turn out to be gaffes or red herrings it's alright, because the story logic still mostly makes sense. Entire fandoms are built on stories that are mapped out, due to the great fun of guessing and speculating on where the story will go.

When it became clear Naruto was a manga that had no plan - again, in contrast to how the first half of it felt - it changed the entire context of the work. Suddenly, nothing was a clue, many moments that may have held weight became meaningless and the cracks not only started to show, they widened. Suddenly, the prior stuff was cast in a different light, with what were once considered minor plot holes widening to a gulf that could never be adequately explained. I crack jokes and rib you guys - all in fun - but part of why I sometimes get sarcastic about the outbursts is because it seems like a lot of people still think he has a plan. There's so much analysis of every moment when at any given second it could be rendered meaningless. Making it up as you go is NOT a bad thing - and there are works that do this well - but Naruto collapsed in on itself with nothing to really hold it together.

One of the best examples I could give of a similar situation pertains to a friend of mine on another forum. I'm sure you all remember the Matrix movies. Despite him having found Reloaded a total disappointment, my friend was fascinated by the entire Architect sequence. He felt like there was a lot of subtext there, things to dig into; enough so that he wrote a couple college papers on it. The philosophical implications were interesting enough that he felt that, despite Reloaded's many problems, the film-makers had an overall plan everything was leading to. Then Revolutions came out, the Architect and his setup was waved away in a line or two of dialogue by the Oracle, the film ended up sucking completely in his opinion and he threw out all of those papers out of disgust. By changing the context of what was a fascinating scene, it was robbed of its impact.

TL;DR Naruto turned out to be shockingly different from what it seemed to be and there weren't enough other factors to keep it from imploding in on itself.

Edited by dl316bh, 06 January 2013 - 06:47 AM.

[kirabook]

I've always been bothered by not knowing the details of Naruto's childhood and who took care of him and whatnot.

I think that is why I enjoy fanfics of a younger Naruto being raised by someone (be it a Minato and Kushina that somehow lived or Kakashi, a grief stricken student unwilling to care for his own sensei's son for a while)

As for why Kakashi didn't step up to take care of Naruto... is it just me, or does anyone else feel like Kakashi and his team weren't nearly as close with their sensei as say, Naruto and Sakura are to Kakashi? I mean, I guess technically he was since he is one of the few people who were told that Kushina was giving birth soon, but I just wonder why wouldn't Kakashi get to know Naruto better? (I'll admit Kakashi was a bit young back then, it would have been unreasonable to take care of a kid, but being an 'older brother' type isn't too out of the question right?)

And Jiraiya, we've seen quite a few times that Jiraiya is pretty guilty about not being there for Minato... but come on. You're the kids godfather, it was a terrible thing to leave him all alone like that. You've got your issues of guilt, ok, but shouldn't you feel more guilty leaving him alone?

Other than the villagers treating him horribly and whatnot though, I don't think Naruto's life or safety were ever an issue (unless of course, he had his father's lastname or something, then he'd be a target) I had the feeling that the third was involved in Naruto's life for the most part, and Iruka filled the hole of the parent he never had for a while (even though Naruto obviously didn't feel that way for a while)

But yeah... I don't believe the details of Naruto's past will every be revealed in detail, so I turn to fanfiction for now.

Edited by kirabook, 06 January 2013 - 07:44 AM.