31711 replies to this topic

[Nostradamus]

Hey... this is off topic but it's been a rough week for me. My dad died in a car crash and... well I still can't believe it happened and I will never get over it but... I'll pull through. I'm still gonna be the dame person I was before because that's what he would've wanted and I just wanna thank you guys for being my friends even though we never physically met. God bless you all.

I'm so sorry to hear that mate. I'm sorry I don't really know what to say.

I'm so sorry.

[RulesofNature]

Subverting expectations is just doing something, whatever it is just to surprise the audience.

 

See, I disagree here. Subverting expectations is like deconstruction, it has to have a purpose, otherwise it's just destruction. When you properly deconstruct a trope, you don't just tear it apart. Instead, you leave something else in it's place. Likewise, subverting expectations is going against what the audience believes will happen due to their exposure to various tropes and cliches. When handled properly, it can ask them why they thought things would turn out like that and serves to reinforce themes,settings, morals, or other ways to tell the audience what type of story it is. Your still giving the audience something, rather than simply taking things away.

 

But like deconstruction, now it's not being used properly. It's used to justify nonsensical writing, just like deconstruction was used to defend the work of edgelords. Writers these days just feel too egotisical, to in love with the idea of being an auteur that they forget you get auteur-status after firmly establishing yourself first. And you're still required to tell good stories that can stand on their own, like The Witcher novels or ASoIaF.

 

Hey... this is off topic but it's been a rough week for me. My dad died in a car crash and... well I still can't believe it happened and I will never get over it but... I'll pull through. I'm still gonna be the dame person I was before because that's what he would've wanted and I just wanna thank you guys for being my friends even though we never physically met. God bless you all.

 

You have my sympathies.

[tricksie]

Hey... this is off topic but it's been a rough week for me. My dad died in a car crash and... well I still can't believe it happened and I will never get over it but... I'll pull through. I'm still gonna be the same person I was before because that's what he would've wanted and I just wanna thank you guys for being my friends even though we never physically met. God bless you all.

Oh my gosh, I'm so sorry. That's terrible. Take care of yourself as you and your family move through this really tough time. You're right, he would definitely want you to be the same person — parents are like that, they want you to pull through, no matter what. The love you share never leaves you. Never, ever. 

 

I'm sure I speak for a lot of people on here when I say that we're all here for you, if you need anything. To talk about serious stuff or to just waste time and talk about our favorite topic (how terrible Naruto ended) and have a break from real life for a while. We're here for you. 

[catsi563]

Hey... this is off topic but it's been a rough week for me. My dad died in a car crash and... well I still can't believe it happened and I will never get over it but... I'll pull through. I'm still gonna be the same person I was before because that's what he would've wanted and I just wanna thank you guys for being my friends even though we never physically met. God bless you all.

My condolences 

[Phantom_999]

While I agree overall with what you said, I can't put subverting expectations and arsepulls in the same category. Arsepulls are just moments done to let's say defeat a villain who was said that can't be defeated by using conventional ways so in order to defeat him, the writer pulls out an arsepull that was never hinted at or developed. Ultimately it serves a purpose to the story, it's not a good thing to do so, but at least it had a reason to exist.

Subverting expectations is just doing something, whatever it is just to surprise the audience. And most of the time not in good way.

It's not done to serve a purpose in the story, it's done just to surprise you the reader/viewer.

I don't know where this thing started but it needs to stop. So far all it's ever done is ruin beloved series.

Stories have rules, don't break them. If you want to wow the audience, write a better story. Don't worry about being cliche or predictable.

 

Good point. I just haven't given them any distinction from each other because I feel that they are both "made up on the spot" if there was no planning or foreshadowing in the writing. Sure the intent maybe different with the @$$pull being a solution or plot point pulled out of thin air, whereas subveritng audience expectations is for shock value and jerking what they have "come to expect" in an unprecedented direction. But never the less, they amount to the same thing if again, the key phrase here being "was not planned nor can be explained in the story." Defeat the the villain with something that was never alluded to nor has any place in the story to do so? Not planned nor can be explained in the story. Throw a curve ball in the narrative just to SHOCK the audience and prevent them from saying "well that was SOOO cliche?" Even though there was no hinting at it at all? Not planned, nor can be explained in the story. That is how it all sounds to me. Again the intent maybe different, but the execution and outcome is the same. Basically if subverting expectations is not planned out nor was there any care put into it to subtlety let the audience that things may not play out the way they were thinking it would, it is not really different from an @$$pull. If you understand what I am saying

 

 

 

See, I disagree here. Subverting expectations is like deconstruction, it has to have a purpose, otherwise it's just destruction. When you properly deconstruct a trope, you don't just tear it apart. Instead, you leave something else in it's place. Likewise, subverting expectations is going against what the audience believes will happen due to their exposure to various tropes and cliches. When handled properly, it can ask them why they thought things would turn out like that and serves to reinforce themes,settings, morals, or other ways to tell the audience what type of story it is. Your still giving the audience something, rather than simply taking things away.

 

But like deconstruction, now it's not being used properly. It's used to justify nonsensical writing, just like deconstruction was used to defend the work of edgelords. Writers these days just feel too egotisical, to in love with the idea of being an auteur that they forget you get auteur-status after firmly establishing yourself first. And you're still required to tell good stories that can stand on their own, like The Witcher novels or ASoIaF.

 

I agree. Although I personally have a different take to it. From what I understand, deconstruction is when a story element or trope is used in the typical story telling fashion but the situation, consequence, etc. is played in a realistic sort of way. It is like if you take something from fantasy and fiction then apply it to real life, then it it does not work out in the same way. For instance, every time Sakura is smacking Naruto into the air for doing something stupid. It is typically played for comedy right? It is for a good old laugh? Now if you apply it realistically, Naruto would actually be crippled and suffer concussive damage to his brain, among other physical complications that actually incapacitate him when he fights. Now it is not so funny, is it?   That is deconstruction. It is subverting audience expectations, although I associate subverting audience expectations more to the lines of playing them along and making them think that a certain outcome will happen then "pull the wool over their eyes" so to speak. Take NaruHina. No matter WHAT their fanatics say about how they are soul mates and that Naruto was always meant to love Hinata, the writing NEVER supported it. That is subverting audience expectations in "the worst way possible" 

 

 

Hey... this is off topic but it's been a rough week for me. My dad died in a car crash and... well I still can't believe it happened and I will never get over it but... I'll pull through. I'm still gonna be the same person I was before because that's what he would've wanted and I just wanna thank you guys for being my friends even though we never physically met. God bless you all.

 

I'm so sorry to hear that.

Edited by Phantom_999, 20 July 2019 - 09:03 AM.

[Derock]

Hey... this is off topic but it's been a rough week for me. My dad died in a car crash and... well I still can't believe it happened and I will never get over it but... I'll pull through. I'm still gonna be the same person I was before because that's what he would've wanted and I just wanna thank you guys for being my friends even though we never physically met. God bless you all.

 

So sorry for your loss.

[Nostradamus]

 

See, I disagree here. Subverting expectations is like deconstruction, it has to have a purpose, otherwise it's just destruction. When you properly deconstruct a trope, you don't just tear it apart. Instead, you leave something else in it's place. Likewise, subverting expectations is going against what the audience believes will happen due to their exposure to various tropes and cliches. When handled properly, it can ask them why they thought things would turn out like that and serves to reinforce themes,settings, morals, or other ways to tell the audience what type of story it is. Your still giving the audience something, rather than simply taking things away.

 

But like deconstruction, now it's not being used properly. It's used to justify nonsensical writing, just like deconstruction was used to defend the work of edgelords. Writers these days just feel too egotisical, to in love with the idea of being an auteur that they forget you get auteur-status after firmly establishing yourself first. And you're still required to tell good stories that can stand on their own, like The Witcher novels or ASoIaF.

 

 

You have my sympathies.

Yes that's the problem with the current version of subverting expectations, because currently writers are not using it as a literal device, they are using it for the lolz. Just so they can say "Bet you didn't see that one coming." which serves zero purpose in the story or even outside of it as a lesson.

Edited by Nostradamus, 10 June 2019 - 08:24 PM.

[VanitasDS76491]

Well I finally watched all 11 Naruto movies and they were good to OK to awful.
Land of snow-good start but lame villain.
Gelel- interesting idea and garra was cool and the three girl henchman were like Frankenstein, Dracula and Wolfman.
Cresent moon-was meh.
Shippuden- cool ideas and shinon was interesting.
Bond- boring and Sasuke was barley in it, but thankfully hinata did nothing in it either.
Will of fire- pretty good with Kakashi and Naruto and his bond.
Lost tower-loved it seeing Naruto with his dad in the past and the end credits song was amazing.
Blood prison- loved it too the story was really good Naruto in prison and I liked mui.
Road to ninja- the best of the Naruto movies.
The last-kitten it to anime hell lowest pits. It's the lowest point for the series
Bolt- a bit better than the last granted it's still bad.

[Nostradamus]

Well I finally watched all 11 Naruto movies and they were good to OK to awful.
Land of snow-good start but lame villain.
Gelel- interesting idea and garra was cool and the three girl henchman were like Frankenstein, Dracula and Wolfman.
Cresent moon-was meh.
Shippuden- cool ideas and shinon was interesting.
Bond- boring and Sasuke was barley in it, but thankfully hinata did nothing in it either.
Will of fire- pretty good with Kakashi and Naruto and his bond.
Lost tower-loved it seeing Naruto with his dad in the past and the end credits song was amazing.
Blood prison- loved it too the story was really good Naruto in prison and I liked mui.
Road to ninja- the best of the Naruto movies.
The last-kitten it to anime hell lowest pits. It's the lowest point for the series
Bolt- a bit better than the last granted it's still bad.

I love your scale. How you ranked them from good to ok to awful.

And yes this song:

is amazing.

[jak123]

Well I finally watched all 11 Naruto movies and they were good to OK to awful.
Land of snow-good start but lame villain.
Gelel- interesting idea and garra was cool and the three girl henchman were like Frankenstein, Dracula and Wolfman.
Cresent moon-was meh.
Shippuden- cool ideas and shinon was interesting.
Bond- boring and Sasuke was barley in it, but thankfully hinata did nothing in it either.
Will of fire- pretty good with Kakashi and Naruto and his bond.
Lost tower-loved it seeing Naruto with his dad in the past and the end credits song was amazing.
Blood prison- loved it too the story was really good Naruto in prison and I liked mui.
Road to ninja- the best of the Naruto movies.
The last-kitten it to anime hell lowest pits. It's the lowest point for the series
Bolt- a bit better than the last granted it's still bad.

I think Road to Ninja is widely considered the best Naruto movie.

[VanitasDS76491]

I love your scale. How you ranked them from good to ok to awful.
And yes this song:

is amazing.

That's not really a ranking that's each movie what I thought after watching it.
Here my ranking
11. The last
10. Bolt.
9. Bonds.
8. Shippuden movie 1.
7.guardians.
6. Genelia
5.land of snow.
4.will of fire.
3. Lost tower
2. Blood prison.
1.road to ninja.
Yes that song is so good I can't stop listening to it.

[VanitasDS76491]

I think Road to Ninja is widely considered the best Naruto movie.

It is so good seeing Naruto and Sakura lives switched plus I'll take road to ninja hinata over canon hinata and heck even road to ninja sasuke.

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

It is so good seeing Naruto and Sakura lives switched plus I'll take road to ninja hinata over canon hinata and heck even road to ninja sasuke.

At least they have actual personalities there, lol.

Also exposes the hypocrisy of NHers who wet themselves over how "awesome" they think Hinatatas is there, but still claim Sakura is "abusive".

[James S Cassidy]

God I hate this stupid trend of writers subverting our expectations. It's been proven so many times that they can't handle it and only ends up destroying the story and making people revolt against it because it's dumb.

Obviously it's done because most stories are predictable and they want to Wow the audience, but they always fail because their great moment of wowing the audience is stupid and it almost always destroys what people loved about the story or characters.

For those who don't know what subverting expectations means, it's just doing something that the audience wasn't expecting.

My favorite show did this and it ended up so badly that the show got cancelled. The people who continue to this don't get it. The audience does want to be subverted in some cases but not always and when they want to be subverted they want to be pleasantly subverted in a way that it aligns with what they were expecting in the first place.

 

That's the idea behind subversion is that you want to give someone what they want and at the same time giving them something they weren't expecting. However what they weren't expecting still has to be in lines with what they want.

Have you noticed they do this mostly with pairings and love affairs with stories? They build up two people in the story and you think they have good chemistry or something is going to happen and then all of a sudden they go with someone else without much provocation?

The Wonder Years did this with Kevin and Winnie. Built up the entire series to make you think they end up together and in the last 5 minutes they dodge it.
Naruto obviously with NS, SK, SS, and NH
RWBY did this this with Bumblebee, Blake and Sun, and Jaune and Pyrrah. Blake and Sun had all these touching moments only to go with Bumblbee which over half the fandom felt like was a cop-out for fan service. Jaune and Pyrrah were canon for 5 seconds before she kicked the bucket.
How I Met Your Mother

It is always pairings they pull this garbage on and very rarely did they follow through. Avatar writers kept with Aang and Katara which is rare.

Subverting expectation used to be something genius and shocking. Now it is either a cheap trick or a cop-out you see coming a mile away. Subverting expectations basically became a "too good to be true" trope within itself.

Honestly, I rather go with a good predictable outcome than a bad half-assed subverting expectation.

Edited by James S Cassidy, 11 June 2019 - 09:47 PM.

[Nostradamus]

Have you noticed they do this mostly with pairing and love affairs with stories? They build up two people in the story and you think they have good chemistry or something is going to happen and then all of a sudden they go with someone else without much provocation?

The Wonder Years did this with Kevin and Winnie. Built up the entire series to make you think they end up together and in the last 5 minutes they dodge it.
Naruto obviously with NS, SK, SS, and NH
RWBY did this this with Bumblbee, Blake and Sun, and Jaune and Pyrrah. Blake and Sun had all these touching moments only to go with Bumblbee which over half the fandom felt like was a cop-out for fan service. Jaune and Pyrrah were canon for 5 seconds before she kicked the bucket.
How I Met Your Mother

It is always pairings they pull this garbage on and very rarely did they follow through. Avatar writers kept with Aang and Katara which is rare.

Subverting expectation used to be something genius and shocking, only now it is either a cheap trick or a cop-out saw coming a mile away. Subverting expectations basically became a "too good to be true" trope within itself.

Honestly, I rather go with something good predictable outcome than a bad subverting expectation.

Yes, oh God, yes. I've noticed that as well. My favorite show destroyed itself by doing this crap. I've talked about it in the OTP thread, it's about the show The Man In The High Castle. For 2 seasons they constantly beat us over the head that Joe and Juliana is fate, is destiny, that they love each other, they were developed from the start and only them, every single character commented on their relationship, even outside the story they constantly only talked about the relationship between Joe and Juliana.

Only for season 3 to come out and decide to go the route of subverting expectations by finally putting them together and then having them turn on each other which just came out of nowhere and then Juliana kills Joe. After she just declared to love him in the previous episodes.

They also brought in a new character that is just trash and he took over Joe's place. And now Juliana for no reason is in love with this new guy. This actually costed them the show because the backlash was so bad that Amazon pulled the plug on it even though they said the show will continue for years and years.

 

I'm with you, give me the most predictable thing out there than a subverting expectations. I don't care if someone says it's cliche, I don't care if it's predictable, I just want it to not destroy what I loved about the story and characters.

Edited by Nostradamus, 11 June 2019 - 11:04 PM.

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

I'm with you, give me the most predictable thing out there than a subverting expectations. I don't care if someone says it's cliche, I don't care if predictable, I just want it to not destroy what I loved about the story and characters.

 

 

Thank you, Nostradamus, that's exactly how I feel! Just because it can come off cliche, if the story shows it, make it work, and don't subvert it just because of what you think will be best, because it just turns out ot be a load of kitten!

[LuckyChi7]

You want a series that's last almost a decade long, and has a definitive solid ending that Naruto failed to deliver on,  

 

it's How to Train Your Dragon: 

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=RRY-_ZPnRWQ

Edited by LuckyChi7, 12 June 2019 - 11:18 AM.

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

You want a series that's last almost a decade long, and has a definitive solid ending that Naruto failed to deliver on,  

 

it's How to Train Your Dragon: 

 

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=VYkp4VU74AI

 

So true, so true. It handled things really well across three movies, several specials, and a TV series :)

[NaruSaku fan in Kentucky]

Hard to believe it's been a week. It was tough burying him last Saturday and even tougher to see my mom crying. I want to thank you for the condolences and let me just tell you, enjoy moments with your parents while you can.

Edited by NaruSaku fan in Kentucky, 13 June 2019 - 03:56 AM.

[Yyubie]

@NaruSaku fan in Kentucky

 

The pain must be really deep , my utmost sympathy ... if you miss him a lot , just remember that hes in a far more better place than earth , and hes probably happy up there seeing his parents (your grandparents).

 

If i may add this respectfully for all of us.

That's why ... i for one never insult other people parents since i was born , i see it a lot when people fight they bring their parents as a weapon for an insult (parental insult). Especially mother , example : "Your mom is this , your momma is that". One of my friends use this a lot when he dislike someone he use this as a joke , and when hes angry at someone , hes definitely use parental insult against whoever that person is. I warn him , i told him to stop because if something happen to his parents , the pain is at least going to be double or worse , i told him the pain he caused to other people by insulting their parents is going to come back to bite him real hard , but he didn't listen. Well ... it happen to him , and he can't moved on or let go to the point he suffer a serious mental damage , attempted few suicide. Short story , hes recovering now and completely changed into a different person ... like from a wanted criminal to a priest.

 

I really hope , people stop using parental insult whatever the reason ... it's not right. Not only that ... i never understand why bring parents (when they are at home or at work) into a debate or as a weapon to hurt the other person feelings ... (search the entire google still no answer why people did this). Sorry for being off-topic.

 

And by the way i saw this in tumblr :

 

The one who posted this said : "Mitsuki is completely obsolete now".