4869 replies to this topic

[Miss Soupy]

Sakura didn't act selfish, cruel and mean towards Naruto without good reason. She DID think HE was being cruel and mean to her, so she treated him harshly when she believed he was bothering her in order to having him to stop (and he could be an annoying, pesky brat, too). Now, her behavior was improper and wrong -and she stopped doing it when she realized it-, but it doesn't make her a b*tch.

Sakura didn't have a good reason to act that way towards Naruto. Now, if Naruto had acted cruel and means towards her, then yes, she would have a justified reason. If Naruto had bullied her like the other girls, then yes she has a reason to act cruelly. Sakura believing her reason is justified is much different than if it is truthfully justified. She assumed she understood why Naruto acted the way he did, but she was incorrect in her assumption which makes her reaction inappropriate.

Also, I said Sakura acted like a b****, I never said she was one. You can say someone's actions are stupid without calling that person stupid directly. And honestly, how else could you describe someones actions when they are behaving bratty, mean, immature, and selfish? If the word can not be used in this case, then I wonder in what case it could be used.

[Nate River]

I disagree, Soupy, but Ciardha has made a better argument than me.

Sakura didn't act selfish, cruel and mean towards Naruto without good reason. She DID think HE was being cruel and mean to her, so she treated him harshly when she believed he was bothering her in order to having him to stop (and he could be an annoying, pesky brat, too). Now, her behavior was improper and wrong -and she stopped doing it when she realized it-, but it doesn't make her a b*tch

That she thought he was mean, cruel, and mocking her doesn't justify her behavior, unless that belief itself is justified. Naruto was a bona fide idiot more than once, but when was he ever mean or cruel to her?

You forget she had been bullied. She knew Naruto was a prankster, and he was always making things annoyed her and humilliated her. What was she supposed to think?

And you -and everyone else- forget we are the readers and we had the benefit of seeing Naruto's thoughts, but she had no that advantage. She acted according what she saw and perceived. It's because that her behavior started changing when she started knowing Naruto better.

That she was bullied isn't an excuse, it's an explanation.

I can't bring myself to care whether her behavior rises to "b*tch" level or whether Naruto was a "complete kittenwad." I simply dislike some of the blurring between the concepts of explanations and justifications that is going on in multiple posts, especially given the way Sasuke is often ripped for his behavior. They're is a huge difference between the two.

[Froot]

@ Jenskott; With all due respect, I don't think you understand fully what I'm trying to say.

I myself don't think Sakura was a b*tch. Like I said, ''jerk'' was more appropriate. I was only trying to defend fireandice and their post, which ciardha totally ignored and only acknowledged the part where Sakura was called a b*tch.

Anyways, it doesn't really matter what people call Sakura. The truth is, she really wasn't all that nice in the beginning. No matter the cause, or what led her to be mean, she was mean. This does not mean that she has continued to be mean. She has grown into a better person, something that could not have been possible without contrast to a meaner, more immature character. If Sakura had been mature and kind from the start, she would have had no development and remained a static, uninteresting character.

By stating that she was once a mean character, I am NOT implying that I dislike her now in any way, shape, or form, nor do I resent her for the character she used to be. Also, since I DON'T think she's a b*tch, I also don't think Naruto is a kittenwad.

He was just as immature, if not MORE immature than Sakura. I don't think it's right to call him a kittenwad. Call me biased, but I don't think he deserves it.

Sasuke used to taunt Naruto and always tried to show him up; Surely you haven't forgotten that. Had Sasuke not been Naruto's rival, then Naruto would have had no reason to be a ''kittenwad'' to him. Not once has he ever antagonized another character without reason. He's never picked a random person and mocked them unless he was put in a situation where his 12-year-old mind told him it was okay to start something.

That said, I am NOT stating that Sakura has. Yes, she acted unfairly to Naruto. She had her own reasons. It can't be justified by saying ''she thought Naruto was mocking her.'' Like I said, whatever her reasoning, she was mean to him.

But it didn't even last that long. She stopped being mean to him in ch. 3. Perhaps you think by me saying ''she used to be mean to him,'' I meant she was mean to hm up until Part II; I'm not sure. But I was referring to ch. 3 and ch. 3 ONLY. I fully acknowledge that in that chapter she started softening up, and that is where her development began.

Edited by Froot, 18 December 2009 - 07:29 PM.

[Nick Soapdish]

That she thought he was mean, cruel, and mocking her doesn't justify her behavior, unless that belief itself is justified. Naruto was a bona fide idiot more than once, but when was he ever mean or cruel to her?

And that she hadn't bothered to try to understand Naruto until she realizes what it might feel like when Sasuke does it to her in chapter 3. She makes great strides from that point. As early as chapter 5, she's worrying about him in the bell test. But for a while, she was still unnecessarily rude to him at times or outright apathetic about his wellbeing. I don't think that I can find an example after around chapter 21 so it wasn't long.

Edited by Nick Soapdish, 18 December 2009 - 07:34 PM.

[catsi563]

Im with Ciarda and Jens on this one.

whats being missed here is Sakuras perspective. To her and this is supported by her own words. Naruto was always acting immature and bratty and was always interfereing with her love life, and most important always wanted to see her fail.

from her perspective Naruto was being as cruel as the girls who teased her. Surprisingly it was Sasuke (( the real one)) who opened her eyes.

She was able to see from sasukes words how much harder Naruto had it being alone than she did. Just how hard compared to her life he had it. She had parents and a curfew. while he was alone and isolated.

this was the beginnings of a wakeup call for her.

Sakura at her worst was selfish and vain and utterly focused on Sasuke. in no way was she a b*tch in the terms of context of the word. If anything Ino at that time fits that description more accurately.

Naruto at the beginning would more appropriately fit the word jerk. He was an arrogant, egotisitcal, bratty, loud mouthed, obnoxious and stubborn little bastard. His only real likeable traits were his determination to never give up and his sheer hutzpah both of which I can admire.

both characters though are given small but early wake up calls in chapter 3. when Sasuke wakes Sakura up to what narutos going through. And when Naruto gets it straight from Sakuras mouth why she dislikes him.

things slowly begin to change between them from there, as Sakura begins to really see Naruto. And Naruto slowly begins to act differently with Sakura.

this brings us to the current part of the story where both have hit a part of their developments where they have to start climbing out of the holes theyve dug for themselves.

the real question is whether they'll do it together or alone.

I tend to think given the development theyll do it together.

[ciardha]

I'm sorry, Froot, but you are very, very wrong. Sakura's growing wasn't about Sakura being a b*tch and then becoming nice and caring. Her growing was about she being an inmature kid and then maturing. Denying she was a b*tch isn't denying her growing and maturity. It's treating the character fairly.

All arguments I have seen used for justifying the "b*tch" label are fallacies and lies ("She was mean to Naruto for no reason!" Huh, no, she wasn't. She was mean when he was bothering her. Otherwise she couldn't care less about him), misunderstandings about the Tsundere trope ("She is an abuser because she hits Naruto!" No, she isn't an abuser. It's called comic relief) or overexaggerations ("She is so annoying! She was always complaining!" No, she wasn't always complaining, and Naruto complained just so much like her. "She is always hitting Naruto!" No, she isn't. Read the manga).

She was bratty and inmature. And do you know what? Twelve-years old ARE bratty and inmature. And her bad traits are always exaggerated and blown out of proportion. Likewise, her good traits are always overlooked. If you read the manga, you'll find she was nice to Naruto every so often, and she always was caring and compassionate. Her growing process enhanced those traits.

I disagree, Soupy, but Ciardha has made a better argument than me.

Sakura didn't act selfish, cruel and mean towards Naruto without good reason. She DID think HE was being cruel and mean to her, so she treated him harshly when she believed he was bothering her in order to having him to stop (and he could be an annoying, pesky brat, too). Now, her behavior was improper and wrong -and she stopped doing it when she realized it-, but it doesn't make her a b*tch.

You forget she had been bullied. She knew Naruto was a prankster, and he was always making things annoyed her and humilliated her. What was she supposed to think?

And you -and everyone else- forget we are the readers and we had the benefit of seeing Naruto's thoughts, but she had no that advantage. She acted according what she saw and perceived. It's because that her behavior started changing when she started knowing Naruto better.

You are completely mising the point what Ciardha is trying getting across. She is telling calling Sakura a b*tch is so justified like calling Naruto a kittenwad. Sakura was bratty and displayed bad traits; but so Naruto was. If She is to be called a b*tch for that, Naruto is to be called to kittenwad.

You tell not once in the series has Naruto being depicted purposely acting like a complete kittenwad unless he was offended first (I guess we are to forget the instances where he picked on Sasuke out of the blue because he was jealousy of the attention Sasuke received, in spite of Sasuke had done nothing to him. Something Sakura has NEVER done). Sakura has never acted harshly unless she was offended first. Hence, she doesn't deserve that derogatory term more than Naruto.

Make up your mind: If Sakura is a b*tch, Naruto is a kittenwad; if calling Naruto a kittenwad is completely out of the blue, calling Sakura a b*tch is completely out of the blue. You can't have it both ways.

And she wasn't made a b*tch for making space for her future development. She was made into a bratty, inmature, insecure kid. There are one difference.

Thanks for drawing out my points in better than I did. Glad it was clear what I was saying to someone.

And bratty fits perfectly. Naruto and Sakura both could be bratty at times, but like you said that's how 12 year olds act. It's really not right that Sakura get judged overly harshly and Naruto gets a pass. And like you pointed Naruto was the one who acted out "for no reason" not Sakura. She acted out when she felt provoked. Were her actions bratty and immature when she was provoked- yep! But so was Naruto's.

I haven't brought up Sasuke, (out of the scope of the thread a bit) because his actions always had a darker side, something more sinister than just a normal bratty, immature 12 year old. From the first chapter we see him I thought- somethings seriously wrong here...

[Nick Soapdish]

Im with Ciarda and Jens on this one.

whats being missed here is Sakuras perspective. To her and this is supported by her own words. Naruto was always acting immature and bratty and was always interfereing with her love life, and most important always wanted to see her fail.

from her perspective Naruto was being as cruel as the girls who teased her. Surprisingly it was Sasuke (( the real one)) who opened her eyes.

If it's just a question of how a character sees their own situation, then Sasuke is a good guy. From his perspective, Konoha forced his brother into killing his family and making Sasuke hate his brother so it's perfectly justifiable to respond in kind.

[catsi563]

Exactly Nick.

to Sasuke what hes doing is not evil from his perspective, since to him the elders and Konoha by extension have benefited from the death and destruction of his entire clan and family. To him its perfectly logical and acceptable to burn Konoha and everyone to ashes and salt the ground.

To Sakura perhaps at this stage she may see herself as having been a B**ch, It doesnt make it true, its simply her perspective. I myself wouldnt call her such, just as I woouldnt refer to Naruto by a derogatory term.

neither character knew better, and untill both their eyes were opened by little revelations at that bench their perpectives were those of immature 12 year olds

Edited by catsi563, 18 December 2009 - 10:05 PM.

[Froot]

As I've been saying, and as Nick just confirmed, it doesn't matter why Sakura acted the way she acted, the fact remains, she wasn't acting kind.

I honestly think this argument has long ago lost its purpose as we have gotten nowhere with it. The past is the past and it will stay there. Sakura is not a b*tch, Naruto is not a kittenwad, and they are no longer bratty 12 year olds. Can we all at least agree on this?

Edited by Froot, 18 December 2009 - 09:56 PM.

[Derock]

Can we all at least agree on this?

Can we? In here, yes, but not at outside sources.

I only agree that both, scratch that, actually all of them, Naruto and peers, were immature and bratty, exclude some.

[Devil Keyz]

Naruto at the beginning would more appropriately fit the word jerk. He was an arrogant, egotisitcal, bratty, loud mouthed, obnoxious and stubborn little bastard

Well i don't blame him. Growin' up with everyone hatin' on you and no parents.

[Jenskott]

Sakura didn't have a good reason to act that way towards Naruto. Now, if Naruto had acted cruel and means towards her, then yes, she would have a justified reason. If Naruto had bullied her like the other girls, then yes she has a reason to act cruelly. Sakura believing her reason is justified is much different than if it is truthfully justified. She assumed she understood why Naruto acted the way he did, but she was incorrect in her assumption which makes her reaction inappropriate.

Soupy, Sakura THOUGHT he was being mean to her and he was bullying her. So IN HER EYES, she was justified.

You tell she was being mean to Naruto for no reason. That is no true. She thought she had a reason, so her meanness -which is always overblown by the fandom- wasn't for no reason. She wasn't being cruel for the sake of being cruel.

We aren't arguing if her actions were justified or not, or if her reasons were good or bad. We are arguing if her actions had or hadn't cause, and if they were harsh enough to warrant the "b*tch" label. Given that she had a cause (yes, she was wrong, but it doesn't change the fact she had one. She wasn't mean to Naruto out of badness and she never went out of her way to be mean to him) and her actions never were so hard how fandom would get me believing, I tell they don't warrant it.

Am I justifying it? Of course not. But she doesn't deserve being called a b*tch for being unintentionally mean and unfair.

That is what I am complaining about.

That she thought he was mean, cruel, and mocking her doesn't justify her behavior, unless that belief itself is justified.

Nate, if you read my posts, you will notice I was NOT justifying it and I never intended doing so. I was explaining it. And stating her behavior never was so bad how fandom would have me believing.

Naruto was a bona fide idiot more than once, but when was he ever mean or cruel to her?

She thought he was being mean or cruel constantly cause his own actions. And she was wrong. But again, she wasn't doing it out of pettiness or with no reason. She thought she had one reason. If she would have known she was wrong, she wouldn't have done so. The best evidence is she stopped when she realized she was wrong. And she felt awful for it.

If she was really a b*tch, do you think she would have done that? And yes, I know you haven't claimed she was. But I was claiming she wasn't.

Again, I'm not justifying it. Simply, pointing out it isn't true she hit him or insulted him out of nowhere.

That she was bullied isn't an excuse, it's an explanation.

And I wasn't excusing it, I was explaining it.

I can't bring myself to care whether her behavior rises to "b*tch" level or whether Naruto was a "complete kittenwad." I simply dislike some of the blurring between the concepts of explanations and justifications that is going on in multiple posts, especially given the way Sasuke is often ripped for his behavior. They're is a huge difference between the two.

I don't think Sakura is a b*tch or Naruto a kittenwad. I think they displayed good traits, but also inmaturity and several flaws, which is absolutely expectable and understandable since they were twelve-years old.

Jenskott; With all due respect, I don't think you understand fully what I'm trying to say.

I myself don't think Sakura was a b*tch. Like I said, ''jerk'' was more appropriate. I was only trying to defend fireandice and their post, which ciardha totally ignored and only acknowledged the part where Sakura was called a b*tch.

Froot; you have spent several posts stating Sakura was a b*tch. That is because I thought you thought she was a b*tch.

Anyways, it doesn't really matter what people call Sakura. The truth is, she really wasn't all that nice in the beginning. No matter the cause, or what led her to be mean, she was mean.

Of course she was. I never denied that; I merely stated her meanness gets exaggerated by the fandom.

By stating that she was once a mean character, I am NOT implying that I dislike her now in any way, shape, or form, nor do I resent her for the character she used to be. Also, since I DON'T think she's a b*tch, I also don't think Naruto is a kittenwad.

He was just as immature, if not MORE immature than Sakura. I don't think it's right to call him a kittenwad. Call me biased, but I don't think he deserves it.

I don't think Naruto deserves being called a kittenwad, right like I don't think Sakura deserves being called a b*tch.

Personally I'm sick of character bashing. And I DON'T approve of insulting a character in order to defend another. But from what I could tell from her post, Ciardha wasn't trying insulting Naruto, but getting her point across.

Sasuke used to taunt Naruto and always tried to show him up; Surely you haven't forgotten that. Had Sasuke not been Naruto's rival, then Naruto would have had no reason to be a ''kittenwad'' to him.

You really need reread the old chapters. Before the hospital scene, Sasuke didn't taunt Naruto and he didn't try showing up. He didn't care for Naruto. Naruto was the one did the taunting and the showing up (or he attempted, at least).

Chapter 3 is a good example. Sasuke is doing nothing. He is just sitting. Out of nowhere, Naruto squats in front of him and TAUNTS him. With no provocation.

Or chapter 34? Naruto gets hurt because he gets jealousy from Sasuke and HE want showing up. And later he got the gall of claiming Sasuke was trying showing up when he was the one was doing that (like Sasuke stated), Sasuke was only making his work, and above all Sasuke had saved him (And I don't consider his "You are always giving us troubles" statement a taunt, since he wasn't trying taunting him).

And during chuunin exams? Sasuke acknowledges his strength by stating he considers him strong and wishes fighting against him. Does it sound like if he was taunting him or showing up?

Sasuke was Naruto's rival because NARUTO chose so. Naruto said so in chapter 227. He said he wanted being his friend and admired him, but since Sasuke was popular and a great fighter, he got envious and decided competing against him.

I'm sorry, but if they were rivals was because Naruto wanted, not for anything Sasuke did to Naruto (you know, it's right like Sakura and Ino's rivalry. Sakura began it. Funny how similar they are). If someone wants arguing Sakura had no valid reasons to be mean to Naruto, then you have to accept Naruto had no valid reasons to antagonize Sasuke.

I don't like Sasuke and I preffer Naruto to him, but Naruto was the one acted wrongly.

Not once has he ever antagonized another character without reason. He's never picked a random person and mocked them unless he was put in a situation where his 12-year-old mind told him it was okay to start something.

That said, I am NOT stating that Sakura has. Yes, she acted unfairly to Naruto. She had her own reasons. It can't be justified by saying ''she thought Naruto was mocking her.'' Like I said, whatever her reasoning, she was mean to him.

I wasn't justifying it, and if I have given that impression, then I haven't explained myself well. I was just stating she didn't do what she did for no reason (It being unjustified doesn't change the fact of it wasn't for no reason).

Therefore, calling her b*tch because she was mean to him for no reason is not justified, since she never did so.

I never lurked in boards or talked to other Naruto fans before the beginning of Part II. When I did and I met Sakura bashers -or former bashers-, I was shocked. Sincerely, I never thought she was so annoying and mean and useless how they told or she was so obsessed with Sasuke how they thought. And some of their claims were absurd ("she is bad because she hit Naruto") or untrue ("she was always complaining and crying!") or overblown (she didn't spend the whole time screaming "Sasuke-kuuuuuun!", she stopped doing that during the Forest of Death anyway and she never stopped training thinking he would rescue her from fights. And yes, I have seen people claiming that).

Anyway, we have gone severely off topic.

Edit:

As I've been saying, and as Nick just confirmed, it doesn't matter why Sakura acted the way she acted, the fact remains, she wasn't acting kind.

I honestly think this argument has long ago lost its purpose as we have gotten nowhere with it. The past is the past and it will stay there. Sakura is not a b*tch, Naruto is not a kittenwad, and they are no longer bratty 12 year olds. Can we all at least agree on this?

I'm sorry, Froot. I was writing my reply as you posted yours, so I hadn't seen it previously.

Yes, I agree with you on this, and I would also like moving on.

Edited by Jenskott, 18 December 2009 - 11:06 PM.

[Froot]

The only thing that matters now is that Sakura is a good, mature character. As for Naruto... I wish I could say he was mature too, but he is a good character.

As you said, I too think it is time to move on. I'm sensing a little tension between certain people (not pointing any fingers) which isn't good because we all like NaruSaku, Sakura included.

So, to digress (or rather get back on topic,) are there any theories as to what may happen in upcoming chapters? Like Naruto's decision and such?

I'm thinking Sai is now going to tell Sakura of what has happened to Naruto. That is, after all, what he said he would do. But what will Sakura do? I think Sakura's in a little too deep to be turning around at this point, when Sasuke is still on the loose. This concerns me.

[RedDelicious]

I wanted to sneak in one last comment before everyone moves on.

I used to think that Sakura was being mean to Naruto without reason.
And then I read the Manifesto, and reread Chapter 183 (PoaL).

Sakura is remembering that early scene on the bench:
"He seems to be enjoying watching me being troubled.
He doesn't understand anything about me..."

That made me realize that she had a reason.
Although Naruto's intentions were the best, she made it clear (in past events) that
she wanted to be left alone, and Naruto kept showing up when she was troubled.
If Naruto would have stopped bugging her, she would not have done anything mean
to him.

Think about Nelson from the Simpsons. He walks up to other kids when they are
humiliated, and rubs salt in the wounds: "Ha ha!"

In Sakura's eyes, Naruto was acting the same as Nelson. Naruto would smile and
laugh when she was at her lowest.

I think at least some of the tears during the PoaL are when she realized that Naruto
understood her well enough (in the past) to know when she needed cheering up.
And realized that he wasn't taking delight in her misery, but trying to buoy her spirits.

That makes the hospital scene after the VotE more interesting. When Sakura comes
in the room and sees how crushed Naruto is, she puts aside her own disappointment
and starts smiling/acting breezy. She acts towards Naruto as he acted towards her,
for the same reasons.

Now that I've finished poking in the open wound...

If it's just a question of how a character sees their own situation, then Sasuke is a good guy. From his perspective, Konoha forced his brother into killing his family and making Sasuke hate his brother so it's perfectly justifiable to respond in kind.

Nope. Compare Naruto (and Jiraiya) with Sasuke (and Nagato). The last pair suffered, and decide that others should feel their pain too. The first pair experienced pain, and dedicated themselves to sparing other people from that pain.

All the way back in chapter 1, Naruto discovers that the village put a malevolent demon inside of him, and tormented him with loneliness and scorn, through no fault of his own. Naruto could have sworn vengance on the village (like Sasuke did), but instead vowed to protect those precious to him, to earn respect from those who belittled him. Big difference from Sasuke.

Edited by RedDelicious, 18 December 2009 - 11:40 PM.

[Jenskott]

The only thing that matters now is that Sakura is a good, mature character. As for Naruto... I wish I could say he was mature too, but he is a good character.

Agreed on both accounts.

As you said, I too think it is time to move on. I'm sensing a little tension between certain people (not pointing any fingers) which isn't good because we all like NaruSaku, Sakura included.

Don't worry. I don't think there's tension between several members due this debate. It was only a minor disagreement.

Personally I usually don't like arguing and I don't enjoy debates (although it's possible I don't give that impression), but I felt I had to explain my position in the matter.

So, to digress (or rather get back on topic,) are there any theories as to what may happen in upcoming chapters? Like Naruto's decision and such?

I'm thinking Sai is now going to tell Sakura of what has happened to Naruto. That is, after all, what he said he would do. But what will Sakura do? I think Sakura's in a little too deep to be turning around at this point, when Sasuke is still on the loose. This concerns me.

That is a good idea and something I hadn't thought of.

I'm thinking Naruto will get an internal monologue, reach one decision about Sasuke (which can or can not be witheld from us for several chapters), wake up and search Sakura or Sasuke, maybe hoping finding both of them. I am betting on him not returning Konoha right now.

I don't know what Sakura will do.

[Froot]

I felt I had to explain my position in the matter.

Well, this is, after all, a forum

That is a good idea and something I hadn't thought of.

I'm thinking Naruto will get an internal monologue, reach one decision about Sasuke (which can or can not be witheld from us for several chapters),

He really needs an internal monologue right now, if at least in the form of a dream. Maybe it's a little cliche, but I trust Kishi will put his own personal spin on it.

And at this point, with all the talking he's been getting, if he doesn't decide that Sasuke is a threat and needs to be dealt with... Well, I just may lose my respect for him.

But I think that's what the hyperventilating scene was depicting; All the flashbacks he was having of various people telling him how bad Sasuke was and that he needed to be stopped seemed to finally find its way through that thick skull of his, and he fainted, giving him time to really sort out things himself. Seems like a good lead-in.

If he does at all think of the Sasuke dilemma during this time, it was foreshadowed by the way he was thinking of it right before he fainted.

...wake up and search Sakura or Sasuke, maybe hoping finding both of them. I am betting on him not returning Konoha right now.

As am I. Maybe on the trip back he wakes up from his self-realization dream and tells Yamato to turn around. Him going back to Konoha, or at least staying there would be utterly pointless.

I don't know what Sakura will do.

Hopefully, if Sai tells her, she'll turn around rather than go on. Maybe by that time Kakashi will have caught up with her?

Or I fear perhaps she will send Lee and Kiba after Naruto and go on to find Sasuke... I most certainly hope not.

[ciardha]

The only thing that matters now is that Sakura is a good, mature character. As for Naruto... I wish I could say he was mature too, but he is a good character.

Well he's getting there. Just like with Sakura, Kishimoto is making their steps to maturity painful, but they are both on their way to it.

[Nate River]

Soupy, Sakura THOUGHT he was being mean to her and he was bullying her. So IN HER EYES, she was justified.

You tell she was being mean to Naruto for no reason. That is no true. She thought she had a reason, so her meanness -which is always overblown by the fandom- wasn't for no reason. She wasn't being cruel for the sake of being cruel.

We aren't arguing if her actions were justified or not, or if her reasons were good or bad. We are arguing if her actions had or hadn't cause, and if they were harsh enough to warrant the "b*tch" label. Given that she had a cause (yes, she was wrong, but it doesn't change the fact she had one. She wasn't mean to Naruto out of badness and she never went out of her way to be mean to him) and her actions never were so hard how fandom would get me believing, I tell they don't warrant it.

And this is why I don't even bother to weigh in whether she is one, and, really, don't even care. The real core of the debate is what constitutes a b*tch and there is no clear agreement on what the definition is.

Am I justifying it? Of course not. But she doesn't deserve being called a b*tch for being unintentionally mean and unfair.

I suppose I'm being unnecessarily picky, but how was she unintentionally mean? She intended to engage in the actions she did. Whether they make her a bad person or not is something else.

Nate, if you read my posts, you will notice I was NOT justifying it and I never intended doing so. I was explaining it. And stating her behavior never was so bad how fandom would have me believing.

My apologies. I did read it, but lacked the time to edit it. I had considered deleting it but, I still wanted to get my basic point across. I've seen the two issues confused horribly in debates with Sasuke fans, and it was starting to creep into to posts again.

[Miss Soupy]

@Jenskott

spoiler --Click here to view--

Soupy, Sakura THOUGHT he was being mean to her and he was bullying her. So IN HER EYES, she was justified.

You tell she was being mean to Naruto for no reason. That is no true. She thought she had a reason, so her meanness -which is always overblown by the fandom- wasn't for no reason. She wasn't being cruel for the sake of being cruel.

We aren't arguing if her actions were justified or not, or if her reasons were good or bad. We are arguing if her actions had or hadn't cause, and if they were harsh enough to warrant the "b*tch" label. Given that she had a cause (yes, she was wrong, but it doesn't change the fact she had one. She wasn't mean to Naruto out of badness and she never went out of her way to be mean to him) and her actions never were so hard how fandom would get me believing, I tell they don't warrant it.

Am I justifying it? Of course not. But she doesn't deserve being called a b*tch for being unintentionally mean and unfair.

That is what I am complaining about.

I realize in her eyes she was justified, but does that mean she truthfully is justified. Let me put it this way. A guy murders his wife because she cheated on him. In his mind, he is justified to get revenge because she hurt and betrayed him. Does that mean he is not considered a murderer because he himself feels justified by his actions? Of course not, whatever his feelings are, he was wrong to do what he did and thus he receives the label of murderer.

Sakura was wrong in what she did, regardless of her own personal justification. Thus, she receives a bad type of label on her character for her actions. And I have to disagree with you about Sakura being mean unintentionally. She was mean to Naruto for a purpose, because she felt he was being mean to her.

[Froot]

I would be delighted if we could move away from this subject and talk about the recent chapters