505 replies to this topic

[narusaku4ver]

I've tried twice to respond to your original post and not been happy with either attempt, let's see if I can do better.

I agree with your basic point and I am equally let down by the fact that four of Konoha's finest were rescued from the Death God and resurrected for THIS?! An expose about how the Uchiha love too much and seem predisposed as a group for this type of behavior. For me, there is little that frustrates me more than author's writing in plot devices that absolve, softens, or removes responsibility or culpability from bad actors. It would be on thing if he were setting up a scenario where he wanted to looked deep into genuine mental illness issues, but this isn't that. This is a naked attempt to move a clan that generally been portrayed as evil and move them into gray territory: to say these are not inherently bad people (I don't people thought that anyway), but good people predisposed to more extreme reactions when bad stuff happens to them, which explains why they kill everything in sight when it all goes to hell.

I think it's a preemptive strike to try and justify Sasuke's later treatment, particularly any redemption (and any actions associated with it) he receives later on down the line. I think this is the predominant purpose of this. It also gives him chance to expand on the power of love, generally. In short, tow show that people like Danzou and the second are wrong. It has the added benefit of pilling on his earlier retconning of how Sasuke awakened his eyes.

It's frustrating because we had seen this with Itachi, Shisui, and pre-massacre Sasuke. This isn't really needed to show that they are not pure evil, and I cannot overstate how I despise the partial shift in responsibility here. I don't think it's intended as a complete absolving, but he's trying to move away from "it's all their own fault."

I'm reminded of an old Family Guy episode where Peter explains his obsessive controlling behavior by stating he just "loves too much." This stinks of that. I suppose we could make the claim that this means he cannot be allowed to be in a pairing because who knows what great calamity the world will face if it doesn't work out. Of course, it seems obvious to me Sasuke will prove to be the one who overcomes it, which is how I agree with your argument that this could used as an avenue for SS. It's not something unique to that or SK or even the Naru-Sasu relationship, but it is rather convenient that a guy so full of hate is only so because he was so full of love before. As for the spulation that this hints at SK, I'd rather hope not because something like this making it's way to that relationship it nauseating.

I'm bummed because I was interested in this despite the cheap plot device used in the last chapter and the one that began this plot thread, but he just pilled on the cheap devices.

Yeah, and I'm a bit confused as to why they would provide these kind of answers (and why the first would screw around) in front of the guy that made the first two fight the third and then later kill the third AND who used the fourth's tools to bring them all back again. The third his objective for many years was to lay waste to what they worked so hard to create, but let's forget about that. Of course the info they provided so far is so lame...that it's really...who cares if they know?

You just said what is going on lately with Sasuke, looks like he's doing that Sasuke has no fault on his action making it to be seen that he's the great victim of the story.
It got an avenue for SS even for SK too because the murder attempts will mean nothing, because Sasuke is the victim, and Naruto thought with "Sasuke does not know what he's doing" thinking, it's forcing this.
Sasuke will nto overcome it alone, Naruto will redeem him but all of this is just fanficy.
It would be better if Tobirama didnt make that explanation that was retarded, it's shown that Madara killed off his friends along with his brother to awaken the mangekyou and now is going ot make seen that Madara is just another victim like Sasuke.
Kishi is just throwing at our faces that there's no villain on the story, no one is villain all of them are victims who need to be redeemed and forgiven, this chapter was an insult for anyone who have at least a QI above 70.

Obito, killed off a lot of people, attacked konoha, manipulated other people he's the victim.
Madara, i dont even need to tell that he even started a war, he's a victim.
Sasuke i dont even need to tell.
Orochimaru just another victim.
Nagato anotehr victim.

Edited by narusaku4ver, 06 February 2013 - 10:57 PM.

[K9ofChaos]

You just said what is going on lately with Sasuke, looks like he's doing that Sasuke has no fault on his action making it to be seen that he's the great victim of the story.
It got an avenue for SS even for SK too because the murder attempts will mean nothing, because Sasuke is the victim, and Naruto thought with "Sasuke does not know what he's doing" thinking, it's forcing this.
Sasuke will nto overcome it alone, Naruto will redeem him but all of this is just fanficy.
It would be better if Tobirama didnt make that explanation that was retarded, it's shown that Madara killed off his friends along with his brother to awaken the mangekyou and now is going ot make seen that Madara is just another victim like Sasuke.
Kishi is just throwing at our faces that there's no villain on the story, no one is villain all of them are victims who need to be redeemed and forgiven, this chapter was an insult for anyone who have at least a QI above 70.

Obito, killed off a lot of people, attacked konoha, manipulated other people he's the victim.
Madara, i dont even need to tell that he even started a war, he's a victim.
Sasuke i dont even need to tell.
Orochimaru just another victim.
Nagato anotehr victim.

You see Kishi, this is what happens whenever you try to make every villain in your series sympathetic. Can't you just ever create a character for once, just once, that is evil just because he's simply a kitten? Don't even try to absolve the a**holes of the Narutoverse from any responsibility for their actions. If the Uchiha are a clan that's genetically wired to become butthurt whenever kitten starts to get real, then that's all the more reason why every last Uchiha should just die already. Why waste time attempting to redeem Sasuke when it would be more practical to off that psychopath as well as Obito (I didn't include Madara because he's technically dead so Obito and Sasuke are the only living Uchiha left). Kishi has failed to convince me that Sasuke should get a redemption with zero consequences but has only strengthened my belief that the total genocide of the Uchiha is justifiable since their genes make them incapable of letting go of the things they cherish which turn them into selfish homicidal a**holes who let their emotions dictate their irrational behavior.


EDIT: I still like the Hokage interactions and personalities.

Edited by K9ofChaos, 07 February 2013 - 01:44 PM.

[Hiraishin]

I still can't find it in my heart to like or feel any pity for Sasuke whatsoever. Maybe I'm unreasonable, but in this case, I don't have a problem with that.

I was already sympathetic to Obito (I still think his actions are unforgivable though, killing of Naruto's family like that), and now his actions just seem to make a lot more sense than it did before. If he were a normal person, maybe he wouldn't have gone so crazy, but he's not. He's an Uchiha, predestined to go nuts if anything to traumatic happens to them. (Yet still.... I have this deep hatred for Sasuke XD)

This is like, exactly how I feel. xD

This chapter was just so fanfic-y to me. While I did enjoy seeing the Hokage and their interaction (and Suigetsu), the "love too much" thing just seems so convenient to me. Now, it's like they have to forgive Sasuke — and Madara, and Obito — because it's not his fault. Plus, like tricksie mentioned, you'd think the Hokage would try to figure out what the hell was going on, rather than simply answering questions like that... Some Hokages they were.

If the Uchiha are a clan that's genetically wired to become butthurt whenever kitten starts to get real,

Lol'd. xD Agree with the rest of your post, as well.

[Derock]

I've tried twice to respond to your original post and not been happy with either attempt, let's see if I can do better.

I agree with your basic point and I am equally let down by the fact that four of Konoha's finest were rescued from the Death God and resurrected for THIS?! An expose about how the Uchiha love too much and seem predisposed as a group for this type of behavior. For me, there is little that frustrates me more than author's writing in plot devices that absolve, softens, or removes responsibility or culpability from bad actors. It would be on thing if he were setting up a scenario where he wanted to looked deep into genuine mental illness issues, but this isn't that. This is a naked attempt to move a clan that generally been portrayed as evil and move them into gray territory: to say these are not inherently bad people (I don't people thought that anyway), but good people predisposed to more extreme reactions when bad stuff happens to them, which explains why they kill everything in sight when it all goes to hell.

I think it's a preemptive strike to try and justify Sasuke's later treatment, particularly any redemption (and any actions associated with it) he receives later on down the line. I think this is the predominant purpose of this. It also gives him chance to expand on the power of love, generally. In short, tow show that people like Danzou and the second are wrong. It has the added benefit of pilling on his earlier retconning of how Sasuke awakened his eyes.

It's frustrating because we had seen this with Itachi, Shisui, and pre-massacre Sasuke. This isn't really needed to show that they are not pure evil, and I cannot overstate how I despise the partial shift in responsibility here. I don't think it's intended as a complete absolving, but he's trying to move away from "it's all their own fault."

I'm reminded of an old Family Guy episode where Peter explains his obsessive controlling behavior by stating he just "loves too much." This stinks of that. I suppose we could make the claim that this means he cannot be allowed to be in a pairing because who knows what great calamity the world will face if it doesn't work out. Of course, it seems obvious to me Sasuke will prove to be the one who overcomes it, which is how I agree with your argument that this could used as an avenue for SS. It's not something unique to that or SK or even the Naru-Sasu relationship, but it is rather convenient that a guy so full of hate is only so because he was so full of love before. As for the spulation that this hints at SK, I'd rather hope not because something like this making it's way to that relationship it nauseating.

I'm bummed because I was interested in this despite the cheap plot device used in the last chapter and the one that began this plot thread, but he just pilled on the cheap devices.

And I agree with you there, only in certain points, including the bolded.

While I loved the personalities of the Hokage Senju bros, the whole explanation of "Uchihas aren't an evil clan as it seems" got me thinking, "So wait a minute... you're basically telling me that Uchihas (bare in mind, people, my quote isn't bashing) have to stay in this emo personality, if not, they will become psychopaths with power via Sharingan." Kishimoto, are you telling us, the audience, that you're pull a psychology excuse just to give these characters, especially Sasuke, some sympathy? Like, "Oh, they're mentally ill, let's feel sorry for him and his dead clan."

I'm think I getting sick and tired of seeing Sasuke needed sympathy and becoming a "wishy-washy" character when he is, according to Kishimoto's latest interview about Naruto and Sasuke, supposed to be the yang, (doing bad things, becoming a villain, opposite of what Naruto is doing/heading towards in his progression...) After that chapter of Sasuke reunited with his brother, things went downhill. No wonder the Japanese loves Sasuke.

But remember, we can't go too indulged and in depth with this because this is a Shonen manga, targeted in younger audiences. If it was in a different category, then we could talk about the complicated issues.

[The Tax-Man]

Kishi has failed to convince me that Sasuke should get a redemption with zero consequences but has only strengthened my belief that the total genocide of the Uchiha is justifiable since their genes make them incapable of letting go of the things they cherish which turn them into selfish homicidal a**holes who let their emotions dictate their irrational behavior.

I'm sorry, WHAT? So killing all the emo teens out there is fine? And don't even say it's not what you said. The Uchiha's are essentially stuck on perpetual emo mode, but that doesn't make them any less human. So please, read what you write.

And yeah, this chapter was just ridiculous. I agree with tricksie on the hokage just being all cool with being revived and interrogated. I like Hashirama's personality, though. Plus, making a Senju a complete head-up-his-ass douchebag makes it a little bit less fairytale-esque. I think I'm one of the few who actually likes where this is going. Not the Sasuke redemption part, mind you (it's too early to complain about that), but the part with the previous hokage being revived being a helluva lot better than Sasuke suddenly going and reading the goddamned tablet, attacking the leaf, or yet another ass-pull for the 'person who knows all'.

Edited by The Tax-Man, 07 February 2013 - 12:16 AM.

[swagosaurus]

I'm really glad they aren't using the Hokages to fight. I love this Sasuke mini-arc, and I don't want Orochimaru's crew to join the battle. >_>

[narusaku4ver]

And moreover the asspull wiht the "segregation and discrimination" of the uchihas
Show me a single chapter were the uchihas suffered discrimination of the villagers, i only see Naruto, i didnt see obito suffering with discrimination, itachi, shisui.
Actually the inverse the villagers proud of the uchihas and the uchihas being seemed as "elite" suddenly no "they were discriminated".
Sasuke with lots of fangirls, even the villagers proud of him and even eager to see him fighting.

The explanation for the discrimination was the kittentiest ever "The ones who do the crimes tend ot be disliked"
Yamanaka clan's work with torture and even to acquire secret information are not?

Seriously kishimoto where this discrimination of the uchihas come from?
how so?

And I agree with you there, only in certain points, including the bolded.

While I loved the personalities of the Hokage Senju bros, the whole explanation of "Uchihas aren't an evil clan as it seems" got me thinking, "So wait a minute... you're basically telling me that Uchihas (bare in mind, people, my quote isn't bashing) have to stay in this emo personality, if not, they will become psychopaths with power via Sharingan." Kishimoto, are you telling us, the audience, that you're pull a psychology excuse just to give these characters, especially Sasuke, some sympathy? Like, "Oh, they're mentally ill, let's feel sorry for him and his dead clan."

I'm think I getting sick and tired of seeing Sasuke needed sympathy and becoming a "wishy-washy" character when he is, according to Kishimoto's latest interview about Naruto and Sasuke, supposed to be the yang, (doing bad things, becoming a villain, opposite of what Naruto is doing/heading towards in his progression...) After that chapter of Sasuke reunited with his brother, things went downhill. No wonder the Japanese loves Sasuke.

But remember, we can't go too indulged and in depth with this because this is a Shonen manga, targeted in younger audiences. If it was in a different category, then we could talk about the complicated issues.

Unless his audience are struck forever on the age of 12 for ten years, and moreover just because they are kids does not mean that they are retarded.
If the audience are for kids only the time-skip should not even exist and moreover, just becuase they target the "teen" audience does not mean that they're retarded, this chapter was a insult not just because of the "power of love" but also "discrimination of the uchihas" who does not even have a decent explanation and no proof on 618 chapters.
The logic is so retarded that it was like "i hate this guy because he's a cop", If i was a cop on japan i would sue Kishimoto.

Edited by narusaku4ver, 07 February 2013 - 12:32 AM.

[xxRomanceGirlxx]

This is like, exactly how I feel. xD

This chapter was just so fanfic-y to me. While I did enjoy seeing the Hokage and their interaction (and Suigetsu), the "love too much" thing just seems so convenient to me. Now, it's like they have to forgive Sasuke — and Madara, and Obito — because it's not his fault. Plus, like tricksie mentioned, you'd think the Hokage would try to figure out what the hell was going on, rather than simply answering questions like that... Some Hokages they were.

Glad to know I wasn't the only one who was bothered by it. I overall loved the chapter and the "love too much" makes sense to me, but I just have trouble dealing with the consequences and what this fully entails. I just don't like the excuriating lengths Kishimoto goes to take away the responsibility from the Uchiha Clan and their shortcomings. He's trying so hard to make them out to be "victims", far worse than he has done with anyone else. Nagato went crazy 'cause his best friend got killed. Simply put, he also "loved too much." While he's a victim of war, he doesn't have a genetic disease that caused him to be this way. Sasuke, on the other hand, does and so does Obito. This chapter is making it seem like everyone else who did evil things are less worthy of forgiveness because they aren't an Uchiha who biologically cannot handle loss. It's blatant Uchiha favoritism hence my facepalm. And what about Sasuke? Kishimoto is making him out so badly to be completely unresponsible now for his actions, it's sickening. I love Sasuke and really want to see his redemption but this is such a cop out. It's not even truly saving a friend who went evil. It's saving a friend with an illness, cheapening the meaning of his redemption to me. I'm not pleased because I want Sasuke to be 100% responsible for his actions (Obito too) and to do this ... it's just a wtf moment. Logically, I can't blame Sasuke or Obito as much as they deserve it and that angers me.

Also, here's a question that's begging to be answered. What is it about the Uchiha and only the Uchiha that causes these chakra recepters in the brain? Why is it genetic and what brought it about to have them be so weak-minded and sentimental? Can you answer that for me, Kishimoto? ... I'm guessing not, it's just one of your famous asspulls.


Yes, this chapter was terribly fanfic-y. O.o The Naruto series has always been corny to some extent but this is pushing it. He's turning the arrogant, bad-ass Uchihas into emotional, whiny people who can never accept reality. I don't really think that's good. :/

P.S. Everyone ignored my last post.

Edited by xxRomanceGirlxx, 07 February 2013 - 12:36 AM.

[kirabook]

Noes, I want the Kage's to battle. The enemy of my enemy is my friend right? I'm sure Oro doesn't want Madara and Tobi to succeed.

Anyway, Sasuke is still opposite of Naruto. But as I said, Sasuke is not supposed to be the final evil doer that Naruto must defeat to save the world. I'm not sure if I ever felt the series was going that way. There's always been someone more powerful and worse than Sasuke and Kishi emphasis this point over and over again. Sasuke is rarely the "We have to stop him to save everyone!" guy. The only time he has been is when he went psycho and threatened to destroy the leaf.

When they fight again, they'll be enemies and all, Sasuke will still have opposing views, but he will not be the Orochimaru that antagonized Jiraiy and the leaf for years to come.

*Hurr hurr, I dislike Sasuke so much, I won't add him to my spell check dictionary -so childish-*

[shadow_Uzumaki]

I don't really think it's taking away any responsibility from the Uchiha Clan. If anything, they fell short of trying to fix their own issue. "Oh, we have some kind of defect that makes us prone to extreme overreaction because we lost someone we loved. Let's fix it by forgoing emotion."

...Kinda Vulcan, though I don't watch too much of Star Trek to make a comparison.


Anyway, my point is, they never went far beyond that, it seems. They neglected that responsibility to try and fix that problem other than an attempt to suppress emotion. As a result, well..., a Fourth Shinobi War in an attempt to control the world so that it doesn't happen to anyone. I'd say, they're still responsible for this whole mess. Looking at you, Madara Uchiha.


Contrast Naruto who's trying all he can to fix the whole Shinobi cycle of hatred that CAUSES the loss of loved ones. The Uchiha, as a whole, turned out to be pitiful, petty, children who can't handle reality....

Heck, even Batman, as much as he can't let go of his parents' deaths, channeled that anger and loss into something good.


Although, this whole thing still seems like a bit of an asspull. Another result of Kishi's horrendous planning?

Edited by shadow_Uzumaki, 07 February 2013 - 12:47 AM.

[Qia]

And here comes Maria being the awkward person that she is with an awkward opinion: Will this chapter REALLY lead to everything Madara, Obito, and Sasuke has done being forgiven because of this mental condition? Shouldn't it still depend on what other characters think? Basically, don't they still have a choice in deciding that they shouldn't be forgiven? I understand why Sasuke might be (Naruto's influence. Plus, it was pointed out that he's still kind of pure, isn't he?). But someone like Madara who's practically submerged himself completely into darkness? That's a little more complicated. Plus, at the end of the day, Obito still wants to go through with this plan of his...and people still died by his hands- like with Shikamaru and Ino both losing their dads. Then there's Neji.

It's really hard to see, despite their mental condition, that these actions would just be forgotten, and that they would receive forgiveness so easily. It might give others a better understanding of them but....

Edited by Qia, 07 February 2013 - 12:49 AM.

[Don-kun]

^^

I doubt Sasuke, Madara and Obito will be excused from their action, this chapter was created for the readers to feel pity and not so much hate towards the Uchihas, not to excuse them from their acts.

And moreover the asspull wiht the "segregation and discrimination" of the uchihas
Show me a single chapter were the uchihas suffered discrimination of the villagers, i only see Naruto, i didnt see obito suffering with discrimination, itachi, shisui.
Actually the inverse the villagers proud of the uchihas and the uchihas being seemed as "elite" suddenly no "they were discriminated".
Sasuke with lots of fangirls, even the villagers proud of him and even eager to see him fighting.

The explanation for the discrimination was the kittentiest ever "The ones who do the crimes tend ot be disliked"
Yamanaka clan's work with torture and even to acquire secret information are not?

Seriously kishimoto where this discrimination of the uchihas come from?
how so?


Unless his audience are struck forever on the age of 12 for ten years, and moreover just because they are kids does not mean that they are retarded.
If the audience are for kids only the time-skip should not even exist and moreover, just becuase they target the "teen" audience does not mean that they're retarded, this chapter was a insult not just because of the "power of love" but also "discrimination of the uchihas" who does not even have a decent explanation and no proof on 618 chapters.
The logic is so retarded that it was like "i hate this guy because he's a cop", If i was a cop on japan i would sue Kishimoto.

I wonder why people are complaining now about stuff I pointed out a long time ago?

Kishi has being giving his two darlings special treatment for more than 300 chapters, is just that know he does not disguises it anymore, he start being straight forward bold about it.

in regards to Sasuke pairing, I don't see a way Kishi could be making an excuse for a Sasuke pairing since he his stating that Uchihas race have this problem and another Madara could born, the idea of a Sasuke pairing might not be dismissed, but if he is says that the race has a problem as an excuse to redeem the Uchihas action and Sasuke, then Sasuke should be the last Uchiha.

To me This story is going downhill for a long time know, the problem is that the story is filled with so much fan pleasing that it doesn't allow it to hit the ground, fan love some the cute boy characters apart from the story itself and that is what keeping this Manga alive.

Edited by Don-kun, 07 February 2013 - 01:00 AM.

[shadow_Uzumaki]

And here comes Maria being the awkward person that she is with an awkward opinion: Will this chapter REALLY lead to everything Madara, Obito, and Sasuke has done being forgiven because of this mental condition? Shouldn't it still depend on what other characters think? Basically, don't they still have a choice in deciding that they shouldn't be forgiven? I understand why Sasuke might be (Naruto's influence. Plus, it was pointed out that he's still kind of pure, isn't he?). But someone like Madara who's practically submerged himself completely into darkness? That's a little more complicated....Plus, at the end of the day, Obito still wants to go through with this plan of his...and people still died by his hands- like with Shikamaru and Ino both losing their dads. Then there's Neji.

It's really hard to see, despite their mental condition, that these actions would just be forgotten, and that they would receive forgiveness so easily.

Yeah, I doubt anyone would go, "Oh! It's because of your condition! You're forgiven for the loss of thousands of brave ninjas and the desecration of our honored dead. Here's a Pardon from the entire world."

[Nate River]

And I agree with you there, only in certain points, including the bolded.

While I loved the personalities of the Hokage Senju bros, the whole explanation of "Uchihas aren't an evil clan as it seems" got me thinking, "So wait a minute... you're basically telling me that Uchihas (bare in mind, people, my quote isn't bashing) have to stay in this emo personality, if not, they will become psychopaths with power via Sharingan." Kishimoto, are you telling us, the audience, that you're pull a psychology excuse just to give these characters, especially Sasuke, some sympathy? Like, "Oh, they're mentally ill, let's feel sorry for him and his dead clan."

I did not. I thought it completely inappropriate given the circumstances.

I'm think I getting sick and tired of seeing Sasuke needed sympathy and becoming a "wishy-washy" character when he is, according to Kishimoto's latest interview about Naruto and Sasuke, supposed to be the yang, (doing bad things, becoming a villain, opposite of what Naruto is doing/heading towards in his progression...) After that chapter of Sasuke reunited with his brother, things went downhill. No wonder the Japanese loves Sasuke.

But remember, we can't go too indulged and in depth with this because this is a Shonen manga, targeted in younger audiences. If it was in a different category, then we could talk about the complicated issues.

I'd disagree. I think we should because Kishimoto is inviting his audience to do so. I think a weakness in his story telling his trying to delve into deeper issues while trying like hell to avoid completely taint his main characters or completely the core message. It manifests itself with Sasuke in stuff like this chapter and Kishimoto constantly changing his direction before he can actually does the deeds he sets out to commit. In Naruto, it comes about in the lack of meaningful challenge to his core beliefs.

I actually find Sasuke's story more interesting that Naruto's for this reason. Sasuke is still seeking to find truth and more about what he is and what he wants to do. Naruto has done that since Bee trained him. Even now, when Obito's challenging his world view it's coming off really weak and the only who got development out of that was Neji and Hinata. I'm still holding out hope in that confrontation, but we'll see I guess.

I also don't think that is what he is trying to tell us. First, that mess is another refutation of the type of philosophy Danzou spouted. Kishimoto is definitely portraying to the Second to be in the wrong.

Moreover, while I dislike that scene I just can't believe Kishimoto is so oblivious to this that kind of "issue" would qualify is a complete absolution of guilt. I think it is meant to temper it somewhat, so what when it comes time to talk about what to do with Sasuke at the end, this will be an available crutch as to why he shouldn't be executed, banished, or whatever. I bet this will be the basis of whatever philosophy Sasuke comes up with that will put him on a direct path against Naruto. I still believe that fight will be as much as clash of world views as much as it is a clash of fists. I also wonder if this will be used to justify Sasuke suddenly expressing a deep love for something or someone, whether it be Karin, Sakura, or a random hole in the ground when up to now all he has done is hate, hate, hate. I strongly believe he's trying to move the entire Uchiha to Kabuto or Nagato relms.

As for sympathy Sasuke, I suppose. I guess this is what is meant by "cursed" clan and may also be an attempt to explain why the clan has produced so many people that are willing to commit mass murder.

But that sympathy it's not needed nor it shouldn't be. Sasuke has been screwed around with and manipulated more so than anyone else. This, of course, justifies nothing. And I believe his subsequent actions squandered whatever sympathy that he had coming in Part 1. I still find it amazing the complete lack of it he gets given what Itachi did to him, but that so many people seem willing to embrace the emotion for Obito despite him being a mass muderer and his hand in both of Sasuke and Naruto's crappy lives. And the second kick to the nuts in all that is the pedestal Itachi still sits upon within the fandom despite him being more responsible than any one else for Sasuke being the way he is. People are still suffering from that exceptionally poor decision.

I admit the fandom's treatment of Obito still does not sit well with me.

You see Kishi, this is what happens whenever you try to make a villain sympathetic.

That's not what the problem really is. It's gets old when this happens every. single. time. No, this is what happens when he leans on a cheesy crutch to explain 80+ years of questionable behavior by the entire clan in a way to avoid placing them completely in the wrong.

[Don-kun]

I did not. I thought it completely inappropriate given the circumstances.



I'd disagree. I think we should because Kishimoto is inviting his audience to do so. I think a weakness in his story telling his trying to delve into deeper issues while trying like hell to avoid completely taint his main characters or completely the core message. It manifests itself with Sasuke in stuff like this chapter and Kishimoto constantly changing his direction before he can actually does the deeds he sets out to commit. In Naruto, it comes about in the lack of meaningful challenge to his core beliefs.

I actually find Sasuke's story more interesting that Naruto's for this reason. Sasuke is still seeking to find truth and more about what he is and what he wants to do. Naruto has done that since Bee trained him. Even now, when Obito's challenging his world view it's coming off really weak and the only who got development out of that was Neji and Hinata. I'm still holding out hope in that confrontation, but we'll see I guess.

I also don't think that is what he is trying to tell us. First, that mess is another refutation of the type of philosophy Danzou spouted. Kishimoto is definitely portraying to the Second to be in the wrong.

Moreover, while I dislike that scene I just can't believe Kishimoto is so oblivious to this that kind of "issue" would qualify is a complete absolution of guilt. I think it is meant to temper it somewhat, so what when it comes time to talk about what to do with Sasuke at the end, this will be an available crutch as to why he shouldn't be executed, banished, or whatever. I bet this will be the basis of whatever philosophy Sasuke comes up with that will put him on a direct path against Naruto. I still believe that fight will be as much as clash of world views as much as it is a clash of fists. I also wonder if this will be used to justify Sasuke suddenly expressing a deep love for something or someone, whether it be Karin, Sakura, or a random hole in the ground when up to now all he has done is hate, hate, hate. I strongly believe he's trying to move the entire Uchiha to Kabuto or Nagato relms.

As for sympathy Sasuke, I suppose. I guess this is what is meant by "cursed" clan and may also be an attempt to explain why the clan has produced so many people that are willing to commit mass murder.

But that sympathy it's not needed nor it shouldn't be. Sasuke has been screwed around with and manipulated more so than anyone else. This, of course, justifies nothing. And I believe his subsequent actions squandered whatever sympathy that he had coming in Part 1. I still find it amazing the complete lack of it he gets given what Itachi did to him, but that so many people seem willing to embrace the emotion for Obito despite him being a mass muderer and his hand in both of Sasuke and Naruto's crappy lives. And the second kick to the nuts in all that is the pedestal Itachi still sits upon within the fandom despite him being more responsible than any one else for Sasuke being the way he is. People are still suffering from that exceptionally poor decision.

I admit the fandom's treatment of Obito still does not sit well with me.



That's not what the problem really is. It's gets old when this happens every. single. time. No, this is what happens when he leans on a cheesy crutch to explain 80+ years of questionable behavior by the entire clan in a way to avoid placing them completely in the wrong.

And to do so you just kitten on the memory of a dead man (Danzo) and even go to the extent of blaming a Hokage, whith Orochimaru a big Psychopath and the 1st Hokage is own brother. Kishi is trying so hard to defend the Ushiha while hurting his story.
Sometimes I feel like Kishi is just another passionate Sasuke and Uchihas fan, even when it's obvious I still try to give myself the idea that he is a professional writer and not a fan boy.

[xxRomanceGirlxx]

^^

I doubt Sasuke, Madara and Obito will be excused from their action, this chapter was created for the readers to feel pity and not so much hate towards the Uchihas, not to excuse them from their acts.



I wonder why people are complaining now about stuff I pointed out a long time ago?

Kishi has being giving his two darlings special treatment for more than 300 chapters, is just that know he does not disguises it anymore, he start being straight forward bold about it.

in regards to Sasuke pairing, I don't see a way Kishi could be making an excuse for a Sasuke pairing since he his stating that Uchihas race have this problem and another Madara could born, the idea of a Sasuke pairing might not be dismissed, but if he is says that the race has a problem as an excuse to redeem the Uchihas action and Sasuke, then Sasuke should be the last Uchiha.

To me This story is going downhill for a long time know, the problem is that the story is filled with so much fan pleasing that it doesn't allow it to hit the ground, fan love some the cute boy characters apart from the story itself and that is what keeping this Manga alive.

Bolded: I can't even fathom how this chapter convinced some people Sasuke will be with someone in the end. I already find him with anyone highly out of character for him but if anything, this chapter made the belief even stronger (Didn't think it was possible). If he has heirs the Uchiha curse will still have a chance to carry it and another disaster could occur. Honestly, I see Sasuke being the last living Uchiha in the end and having no kids to carry on that curse. I already saw someone (not here) say SS could happen because Uchihas love too much. The logic. Seriously, SS is dead pretty much in canon likelihood. The ship has sailed. Actually, it never had a sail to begin with. I see NH being possible and can admit it, but SasuSaku??? Just no way.

Either way, I haven't excused the actions of either Sasuke, Obito, or Madara just because of this. That's impossible for me and we can't forget that easily. I just hate how pitying he makes them look, like a victims. Dat Uchiha favoritism. *sighs*

Edited by xxRomanceGirlxx, 07 February 2013 - 01:21 AM.

[Nate River]

And to do so you just kitten on the memory of a dead man (Danzo) and even go to the extent of blaming a Hokage, whith Orochimaru a big Psychopath and the 1st Hokage is own brother. Kishi is trying so hard to defend the Ushiha while hurting his story.
Sometimes I feel like Kishi is just another passionate Sasuke and Uchihas fan, even when it's obvious I still try to give myself the idea that he is a professional writer and not a fan boy.

Memory of a dead man? Dood.

The body was barely cold before Kishimoto resumed "sh**ting" on him. He is the convenient plot device to which ALL of Konoha's awful deeds can be placed on.

[Qia]

He doesn't have to have babies with someone in order to have a romantic relationship with them, though? And no I'm not specifically pointing at Sakura. And who knows...maybe there might be a way to stop the curse.

[Don-kun]

He doesn't have to have babies with someone in order to have a romantic relationship with them, though? And no I'm not specifically pointing at Sakura. And who knows...maybe there might be a way to stop the curse.

Don't worry I already know you are a SK fan, but keep in mind that the only character who already has a name for his son his Naruto, most of the males Ninjas in Konoha are bachelors.

[Qia]

Don't worry I already know you are a SK fan, but keep in mind that the only character who already has a name for his son his Naruto, most of the males Ninjas in Konoha are bachelors.

That's a good point. I wouldn't really mind Sasuke not having kids, honestly. That whole restoring his clan always came out, to me, as meaning honor rather than, well, physically.