Jump to content

Close
Photo

The Great Naruto Discussion Thread

naruto wtf discuss

  • Please log in to reply
31593 replies to this topic

#25841 FireFox

FireFox

    Heaven and Earth Deity

  • Kyuubi
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 14,357 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Macedonia
  • Interests:Music:Trance&Progressive: Armin Van Buren ASOT,Aly&Fila FSOE,Andrew Rayel,Giuseppe Ottaviani
    Movies: The Last Samurai,Lord of the Rings,The Hobbit,Marvel.
    Movie Series: Game of Thrones,Spartacus,The Mentalist,NCIS,The Big Bang Theory,How I Met Your Mother.
    Manga: Naruto,Gintama.
    Parings: NaruSaku,MinaKushi,GinTae,ZuraKyubei

Posted 14 January 2018 - 11:18 AM

Litterature is funny that way... you just never know what will end up sticking as the example of a genre.

 

Teacher: Ah yes, and here we have a classic example of early 21. century Greyism, a rather crude form of a romance novel.

True! XD.

 

LOL!!! They should also add a case of a story doing a massive brainwash  :zaru:  . 

 

Also kishis poor writing ability and not caring much for the main character to develop instead he relapse all the time. Same could be said for sakura cant write a proper herione without being sexist and making sakura look weak and trophy wife to be earned.

 

When i look back at the series now, i think the series was always meant to be doomed kishi depends to much for editors help and can't write that good without screwing things up.

In the end it was the girls who were the trophy holders bc man's feelings don't matter they don't know what love is, a woman's only role is to be a baby machine and a dust cleaner, Kishimoto Romance 101  :roll:


                                               Posted Image                                                            
 
" I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come."

#25842 Bryon_Konoha_Ninja

Bryon_Konoha_Ninja

    Magnificient Bastard (aka Cliffhanger Bastard!)

  • Kyuubi
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,905 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Eugene, OR, USA

Posted 16 January 2018 - 07:03 PM

In the end it was the girls who were the trophy holders bc man's feelings don't matter they don't know what love is, a woman's only role is to be a baby machine and a dust cleaner, Kishimoto Romance 101  :roll:

 

Never truer words have been spoken, my friend. It's honestly what sucks most as well as the stepping on the canon established. @_@



#25843 RulesofNature

RulesofNature

    Chakra Water Walker

  • Chakra Water Walker
  • PipPip
  • 447 posts

Posted 17 January 2018 - 11:32 PM

I just like to imagine at this point there was a timeline split after the Pein arc, courtesy of some god of destiny. In one timeline Naruto was able to fight off the god's influence, stayed true to himself and put an end to the ninja system. Canon is the timeline where Naruto wasn't able to, as the god decided to keep the ninja system around and basically screwed around with everything to keep it going.

 

And someday Boruto will stumble across a dimensional tear into the alternate timeline, and suffer an existential crisis as he realizes he's only around because some higher power decided to mess up the story while the true Naruto is horrified by the world his counterpart lives in.


Edited by RulesofNature, 17 January 2018 - 11:32 PM.

iSP2FNe.png

Just making your day a little brighter.


#25844 Derock

Derock

    H&E Interpol Agent

  • Kage
  • 8,846 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:From Brick City to Lone Star, USA
  • Interests:Video games (fighting), NaruSaku, Naruto, Sonic, Street Fighter, DOA, Darkstalkers, Tekken, computers, MHA

Posted 18 January 2018 - 03:58 AM

I just like to imagine at this point there was a timeline split after the Pein arc, courtesy of some god of destiny. In one timeline Naruto was able to fight off the god's influence, stayed true to himself and put an end to the ninja system. Canon is the timeline where Naruto wasn't able to, as the god decided to keep the ninja system around and basically screwed around with everything to keep it going.

 

And someday Boruto will stumble across a dimensional tear into the alternate timeline, and suffer an existential crisis as he realizes he's only around because some higher power decided to mess up the story while the true Naruto is horrified by the world his counterpart lives in.

 

Oi, oi, that's part of my ideas for my grand epic I'm working on.


latest?cb=20140126021943

What's Happening with the Naruto series as of now!


#25845 Gravenimage

Gravenimage

    Heaven and Earth Deity

  • Kyuubi
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,535 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:South Pearl Ponce Puerto Rico

Posted 18 January 2018 - 04:30 AM

I have no idea when... i think ppst shippuden sometimes...

Also. It fills me with glee the idea that some day in the future a group of students will study the work of Naruto in their literature class. And the students shall argue if the endgame pairings make sense or not and the flames of the shipping war shall reignite once again. We shall rise once more.

 

We already had someone with a" high educational degree in literature" and that person turned out to be what we weren't expecting since she was the biggest pro-ender of all. Trying to convince us that she was right at everything and that NH and SS are perfect and they make sense but NS doesn't and agrees that Kishimoto has never been wrong. 

 

*cough Analyzer cough"


Edited by Gravenimage, 18 January 2018 - 04:30 AM.

Gravenimage

Lone Wolf of the Grave








#25846 AHK

AHK

    Heaven and Earth Deity

  • Kyuubi
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,464 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Jacksonville, FL
  • Interests:One Piece, Tokyo Ghoul, The Breaker, Fairy Tail, BnHA, Twin Star Exorcists, Shokugeki no Soma, Owari no Seraph, BnHA, Akatsuki no Yona, Noragami, Magi, Akame Ga Kill, Attack on Titan, HotD, SAO, HxH, Ao no Exorcist, NnT

    LuNa, Touken, EragonxArya, MiriShep, NS, SoumaxErina, IzuOcha, RokuBeni, NaLu, ShioonxJinnie, YuxShinoa, HakYona, SaberxShirou, Yatori, MK, EreMika

Posted 18 January 2018 - 05:10 AM

Harry Potter is getting grief because of Hermione Granger turning black and JK Rowling keep on telling people how progressive she is. Except, she is changing the story for the sake of diversity. "I never said Herminone was white in my story." You never said she was black either. You had control over the Harry Potter movie cast and you choice Emma Watson to represent her. Why make that choice and not cast say a cute black actress instead if you wanted Hermione black? You didn't say Dumbledore was gay in the book eithers, but you said it outside of the books. What next? Snape is a transgender?
And it's not the fact that people are hateful towards these things, but it is just the matter of being insulted when there is confusion. Why is it wrong to assume Hermione was white? In the movies, they had Lavender Brown change from Black to white for some odd reason, but she never said anything about this. The problem is just the way people are handling things the wrong way and not from the audience perspective. You have the freedom to do whatever you want in the story, but when you start to insult your readers because you are the incompetant one....then people get angry.
I will not be insulted or my "reading ability" insulted because Kishimoto can't write a story properly. Naruto has failed because Kishimoto failed it...not because we, as the readers, didn't read it properly.

Ah, good ole JK. I never really knew this was a thing until you mentioned it, and then I looked around. I just find it funny that she says that and despite having described Hermione as turning a dark shade of pink in the 6th book. Or describing Hermione's white face sticking out behind a tree in the 3rd. Dont treat the audience like they're stupid. I feel like thats something she sometimes had a problem with in her story, and it helped contribute to how bad the ending was.

Edited by AHK, 18 January 2018 - 05:25 AM.

EXL5X4B.png

"I am the One-Eyed King."

 

 


#25847 James S Cassidy

James S Cassidy

    Heaven and Earth Deity

  • Banned
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,831 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 18 January 2018 - 05:56 AM

Ah, good ole JK. I never really knew this was a thing until you mentioned it, and then I looked around. I just find it funny that she says that and despite having described Hermione as turning a dark shade of pink in the 6th book. Or describing Hermione's white face sticking out behind a tree in the 3rd. Dont treat the audience like they're stupid. I feel like thats something she sometimes had a problem with in her story, and it helped contribute to how bad the ending was.

I think she is just doing to seem progressive and getting on the diversity trend that is going on lately. You know, like turning white characters in POC because they want to appeal to "oppressed side" of America. They talk very political all the time. You can even tell this when JK Rowling just was going after PewdiePie for the the facist comments and what not when really the whole thing with pewdiepie was actually a misunderstanding. Also poor Logan Paul too.

It's not enough to make an apology anymore....people want to see you hang by your entrails....and they call themselves "progressives." Feels more like barbarians to me.

JK Rowling, like Kishimoto, seems so keen on trying to "not piss off the right crowd" that she is actually pissing MORE people off by continuing to push her political agenda in her stuff. I don't get why they keep trying to pander to a side that really doesn't make them money only to piss off the people who do make them money. I don't know if Kishimoto pushed political agenda, but he does try to appeal to the wrong crowd and ended up being criticised worse for it. Instead, they both keep pushing changes and expecting people to accept it.

Jk Rowling: "I made Hermione Black and and Dumbledore gay. Deal with it."
Fans: "Why didn't you just say what they were in the books while you were writing them?"
JK Rowling: "Because......kitten you."
Fans: "Well, kitten you more."

Kishimoto: "I am not good at writing romance."
Fans: "Then why was it all about Romance."
Kishimoto: "Because the story was about how Naruto and Hinata got together."
Fans: ".....so is it a romance manga or isn't it?"
Kishimoto: "Well, I didn;t want to focus on the romance."
Fans: "But the story is about how Naruto got with Hinata?"
Kishimoto: "Yeup"
Fans: "But the story is not about romance?"
Kishimoto: "Yeup."
Fans: "......you have no idea what you are talking about do you?"
Kishimoto: "Yeup."
Fans: "Thought so"


My gofundme
https://www.gofundme...c-designer-fund

Δικός σου για να κρατάτε
Σ'αγαπώ

#25848 VanitasDS76491

VanitasDS76491

    Legendary Ninja

  • Legendary Ninja
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,249 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:Narusaku, Naruto, Bleach,,RWBY, Fairy Tail, Kill la Kill. Dragon Ball Series, Attack on Titan, Kingdom Hearts, Final Fantasy, Resident Evil, The Last of Us, Hellsing, Yu-Gi-oh, Digimon, Rave Master, The Middle-Earth Saga, Star Wars, Marvel Comics, MCU, Superman, Batman, DC Comics, Metal Gear Series, Transformers Series, Devil May Cry, Bioshock Series, One Piece, Claymore, Full Metal Alchemist, Yu Yu Hakusko, Soul Eater.

Posted 18 January 2018 - 11:00 AM

We already had someone with a" high educational degree in literature" and that person turned out to be what we weren't expecting since she was the biggest pro-ender of all. Trying to convince us that she was right at everything and that NH and SS are perfect and they make sense but NS doesn't and agrees that Kishimoto has never been wrong. 
 
*cough Analyzer cough"

That's Like George Lucas did nothing wrong with star wars even saying the special edition and the prequels are good.

#25849 VanitasDS76491

VanitasDS76491

    Legendary Ninja

  • Legendary Ninja
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,249 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:Narusaku, Naruto, Bleach,,RWBY, Fairy Tail, Kill la Kill. Dragon Ball Series, Attack on Titan, Kingdom Hearts, Final Fantasy, Resident Evil, The Last of Us, Hellsing, Yu-Gi-oh, Digimon, Rave Master, The Middle-Earth Saga, Star Wars, Marvel Comics, MCU, Superman, Batman, DC Comics, Metal Gear Series, Transformers Series, Devil May Cry, Bioshock Series, One Piece, Claymore, Full Metal Alchemist, Yu Yu Hakusko, Soul Eater.

Posted 18 January 2018 - 11:02 AM

I think she is just doing to seem progressive and getting on the diversity trend that is going on lately. You know, like turning white characters in POC because they want to appeal to "oppressed side" of America. They talk very political all the time. You can even tell this when JK Rowling just was going after PewdiePie for the the facist comments and what not when really the whole thing with pewdiepie was actually a misunderstanding. Also poor Logan Paul too.
It's not enough to make an apology anymore....people want to see you hang by your entrails....and they call themselves "progressives." Feels more like barbarians to me.
JK Rowling, like Kishimoto, seems so keen on trying to "not piss off the right crowd" that she is actually pissing MORE people off by continuing to push her political agenda in her stuff. I don't get why they keep trying to pander to a side that really doesn't make them money only to piss off the people who do make them money. I don't know if Kishimoto pushed political agenda, but he does try to appeal to the wrong crowd and ended up being criticised worse for it. Instead, they both keep pushing changes and expecting people to accept it.
Jk Rowling: "I made Hermione Black and and Dumbledore gay. Deal with it."
Fans: "Why didn't you just say what they were in the books while you were writing them?"
JK Rowling: "Because......kitten you."
Fans: "Well, kitten you more."
Kishimoto: "I am not good at writing romance."
Fans: "Then why was it all about Romance."
Kishimoto: "Because the story was about how Naruto and Hinata got together."
Fans: ".....so is it a romance manga or isn't it?"
Kishimoto: "Well, I didn;t want to focus on the romance."
Fans: "But the story is about how Naruto got with Hinata?"
Kishimoto: "Yeup"
Fans: "But the story is not about romance?"
Kishimoto: "Yeup."
Fans: "......you have no idea what you are talking about do you?"
Kishimoto: "Yeup."
Fans: "Thought so"

That's actually funny James and I'd like to see someone do that to kishi only keep going with it to get a real answer if possible.

#25850 RulesofNature

RulesofNature

    Chakra Water Walker

  • Chakra Water Walker
  • PipPip
  • 447 posts

Posted 18 January 2018 - 06:17 PM

Kishimoto: "I am not good at writing romance."
Fans: "Then why was it all about Romance."
Kishimoto: "Because the story was about how Naruto and Hinata got together."
Fans: ".....so is it a romance manga or isn't it?"
Kishimoto: "Well, I didn;t want to focus on the romance."
Fans: "But the story is about how Naruto got with Hinata?"
Kishimoto: "Yeup"
Fans: "But the story is not about romance?"
Kishimoto: "Yeup."
Fans: "......you have no idea what you are talking about do you?"
Kishimoto: "Yeup."
Fans: "Thought so"

 

This is complete bull. NaruHina hardly have any scenes together in the manga, scratch that, Hinata hardly has any appearances in the manga and the story of how they got together was handed off to SP for a movie. On top of that Kishi made numerous scenes depicting the evolution of Sakura and Naruto's relationship and how they were willing to sacrifice for the other's sake, only for Kishi to turn around and claim it's all a red herring. The relationship that he has been building since chapter 3 of the manga is a red herring, while the girl Naruto is "supposed" to end up with appears even less than Tenten despite Tenten's lack of presence being a really old joke within the fandom.

 

Think about that, the point of the manga is supposedly these two characters getting together yet they hardly share any scenes with one another and The Last was marketed as the story of how NaruHina happened. Seems like Kishi really failed as a writer if they had to do that, and how the manga can't stand on it's own merits if NaruHina was the freaking point of it all. Meanwhile, Kishi put a lot more effort into setting up another pairing, as well as establishing how Naruto is going to change the ninja world only for SP to attach Boruto like a cancerous tumor trying to disguise the ninja world as more child friendly. This story fails to convey it's "intended" messages spectacularly.

 

(mic drop).


iSP2FNe.png

Just making your day a little brighter.


#25851 RulesofNature

RulesofNature

    Chakra Water Walker

  • Chakra Water Walker
  • PipPip
  • 447 posts

Posted 19 January 2018 - 10:41 PM

Never thought I'd actually have the guts to write this, but I feel a lot of people were misreading Naruto from the beginning. 

 

People looked at Naruto and saw him as a victim, the underdog who is going to fight his way to #1. They connected to him because of his sob story and believed the story would end with everyone seeing how great he actually is. This is why Hinata's love is seen as so pure even though it started way before his character development as an adult. People even played up his victim status, leading to fanon like a civilian council making Naruto's life a living hell and him chased by mobs of villagers with the intent to cause bodily harm in retaliation for the Kyuubi attack years prior.

 

But that's not what the story tries to say, isn't it? It doesn't indulge in Naruto's victim status, with Kakashi saying during the Wave arc that Naruto never cried about being alone. Naruto's situation created a darkness within him, one that allowed him to relate with villains he saw as evil versions of him, and a big deal is made at the end that Naruto could have easily joined them. But he didn't, he didn't allow the hate to consume him. Instead, he learned to work towards the good of the village. To serve it, and when his son is dealing with his own loneliness Naruto tells him to suck it up.

 

You see, this is the thing: For all the messed up stuff we see Konoha do, in the end it's all about contributing for this community. The Hyuuga create a slave class of their members? Doesn't change, and Neji chooses to die protecting main member Hinata like he was supposed to as a branch member. Naruto ends up yelling at his son at the end of the manga for the same prank he himself pulled when we first met him. The Leaf ostracized the Uchiha clan and when the plan to brainwash them into being loyal didn't work out, instead they have Itachi massacre his entire family for the good of the Leaf. And then after learning the truth about this, Sasuke wants it to remain hidden while performing jobs Konoha can't officially be tied to as a form of trying to make up for what he did. Sarada comes to idolize Naruto and follow in his example, while Boruto wants to serve the Leaf like Sasuke.

 

Naruto was not about fighting the system. It never was. For as messed up as it is, the characters still want to protect it with Kiwaki being set up as the bad guy for wanting to end it. It's about joining the system, not rebelling against it. If you get wronged by society, it's on you to just suck it up while still contributing to it.

 

Which, really, makes sense considering how bullying is handled in Japan. In Nippon, teachers will tell students suffering from bullying to try and fit in better with their classmates. The kids doing the bullying justify their actions by saying because the victim doesn't fit in, they are rejecting the rest of the group. There's even cases where kindergarten teachers encourage this behavior, telling the other kids to laugh.

 

 

This starts in preschool, where children who seem to be a bit cranky are often made to feel different from the happy ones. A preschool teacher will ignore a sad child, hoping that the indirect pressure of the group will encourage him to get over it and come back to play. A perfect example of this comes from an education researcher observing a loner child avoiding activities in a Japanese preschool:

“….the teacher encouraged the children to ostracize him by pointing him out as ‘strange’ and ‘peculiar’ (okashii), words applied to any child who cries or looks unhappy at kindergarten. ‘Fancy not wanting to come to kindergarten’, she had said at the beginning, ‘what a funny boy.'”

https://thisjapanese...-ijime-bullies/

 

And then people wonder why Japan has high suicide rates among students, along with students who refuse to go to school. And consider who Naruto was targeted at. He's not the escapist character people make him out to be, his story is him getting in line with the rest of society. That's what not giving into hate and absolving people for their crimes comes down to, it's about letting go of your personal feelings and supporting the group that victimized you. Because they're not at fault here, you are if you lash out in response. And it's why when Naruto became a ninja and contributed to Konoha, protecting it, that people other than Hinata began to approve of him.

 

It's a very Japanese moral that doesn't translate well to Western culture, which values the individual more. We were raised on the scrappy underdog coming out on top with everyone recognizing how great they actually are. Naruto is the anti-Rocky. Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated. And in a sense, it makes you wonder how compatible Naruto really was with Western sensibilities.

 

Consider that the tradition view in Japan is group harmony (what I've been talking about here), male leadership (Tsunade being a woman being used as a reason why she's weak) and submissive women (Hinata). Naruto is a distinctly Japanese series, but because of the escapist nature of anime few Westerners actually picked up on this.


Edited by RulesofNature, 19 January 2018 - 10:58 PM.

iSP2FNe.png

Just making your day a little brighter.


#25852 VanitasDS76491

VanitasDS76491

    Legendary Ninja

  • Legendary Ninja
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,249 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:Narusaku, Naruto, Bleach,,RWBY, Fairy Tail, Kill la Kill. Dragon Ball Series, Attack on Titan, Kingdom Hearts, Final Fantasy, Resident Evil, The Last of Us, Hellsing, Yu-Gi-oh, Digimon, Rave Master, The Middle-Earth Saga, Star Wars, Marvel Comics, MCU, Superman, Batman, DC Comics, Metal Gear Series, Transformers Series, Devil May Cry, Bioshock Series, One Piece, Claymore, Full Metal Alchemist, Yu Yu Hakusko, Soul Eater.

Posted 20 January 2018 - 12:45 AM

This is complete bull. NaruHina hardly have any scenes together in the manga, scratch that, Hinata hardly has any appearances in the manga and the story of how they got together was handed off to SP for a movie. On top of that Kishi made numerous scenes depicting the evolution of Sakura and Naruto's relationship and how they were willing to sacrifice for the other's sake, only for Kishi to turn around and claim it's all a red herring. The relationship that he has been building since chapter 3 of the manga is a red herring, while the girl Naruto is "supposed" to end up with appears even less than Tenten despite Tenten's lack of presence being a really old joke within the fandom.
 
Think about that, the point of the manga is supposedly these two characters getting together yet they hardly share any scenes with one another and The Last was marketed as the story of how NaruHina happened. Seems like Kishi really failed as a writer if they had to do that, and how the manga can't stand on it's own merits if NaruHina was the freaking point of it all. Meanwhile, Kishi put a lot more effort into setting up another pairing, as well as establishing how Naruto is going to change the ninja world only for SP to attach Boruto like a cancerous tumor trying to disguise the ninja world as more child friendly. This story fails to convey it's "intended" messages spectacularly.
 
(mic drop).

I went through all 72 volume and hinata only appeared in 25% of the whole series.

#25853 rikakim94

rikakim94

    Jounin

  • Jounin
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,780 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:new york city

Posted 20 January 2018 - 06:19 AM

Never thought I'd actually have the guts to write this, but I feel a lot of people were misreading Naruto from the beginning. 

 

People looked at Naruto and saw him as a victim, the underdog who is going to fight his way to #1. They connected to him because of his sob story and believed the story would end with everyone seeing how great he actually is. This is why Hinata's love is seen as so pure even though it started way before his character development as an adult. People even played up his victim status, leading to fanon like a civilian council making Naruto's life a living hell and him chased by mobs of villagers with the intent to cause bodily harm in retaliation for the Kyuubi attack years prior.

 

But that's not what the story tries to say, isn't it? It doesn't indulge in Naruto's victim status, with Kakashi saying during the Wave arc that Naruto never cried about being alone. Naruto's situation created a darkness within him, one that allowed him to relate with villains he saw as evil versions of him, and a big deal is made at the end that Naruto could have easily joined them. But he didn't, he didn't allow the hate to consume him. Instead, he learned to work towards the good of the village. To serve it, and when his son is dealing with his own loneliness Naruto tells him to suck it up.

 

You see, this is the thing: For all the messed up stuff we see Konoha do, in the end it's all about contributing for this community. The Hyuuga create a slave class of their members? Doesn't change, and Neji chooses to die protecting main member Hinata like he was supposed to as a branch member. Naruto ends up yelling at his son at the end of the manga for the same prank he himself pulled when we first met him. The Leaf ostracized the Uchiha clan and when the plan to brainwash them into being loyal didn't work out, instead they have Itachi massacre his entire family for the good of the Leaf. And then after learning the truth about this, Sasuke wants it to remain hidden while performing jobs Konoha can't officially be tied to as a form of trying to make up for what he did. Sarada comes to idolize Naruto and follow in his example, while Boruto wants to serve the Leaf like Sasuke.

 

Naruto was not about fighting the system. It never was. For as messed up as it is, the characters still want to protect it with Kiwaki being set up as the bad guy for wanting to end it. It's about joining the system, not rebelling against it. If you get wronged by society, it's on you to just suck it up while still contributing to it.

 

Which, really, makes sense considering how bullying is handled in Japan. In Nippon, teachers will tell students suffering from bullying to try and fit in better with their classmates. The kids doing the bullying justify their actions by saying because the victim doesn't fit in, they are rejecting the rest of the group. There's even cases where kindergarten teachers encourage this behavior, telling the other kids to laugh.

 

https://thisjapanese...-ijime-bullies/

 

And then people wonder why Japan has high suicide rates among students, along with students who refuse to go to school. And consider who Naruto was targeted at. He's not the escapist character people make him out to be, his story is him getting in line with the rest of society. That's what not giving into hate and absolving people for their crimes comes down to, it's about letting go of your personal feelings and supporting the group that victimized you. Because they're not at fault here, you are if you lash out in response. And it's why when Naruto became a ninja and contributed to Konoha, protecting it, that people other than Hinata began to approve of him.

 

It's a very Japanese moral that doesn't translate well to Western culture, which values the individual more. We were raised on the scrappy underdog coming out on top with everyone recognizing how great they actually are. Naruto is the anti-Rocky. Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated. And in a sense, it makes you wonder how compatible Naruto really was with Western sensibilities.

 

Consider that the tradition view in Japan is group harmony (what I've been talking about here), male leadership (Tsunade being a woman being used as a reason why she's weak) and submissive women (Hinata). Naruto is a distinctly Japanese series, but because of the escapist nature of anime few Westerners actually picked up on th

 

 

 

Speaking about submissive woman i remember an interview from a favorite animator of mine called mamoru hosoda. He was interviewed about his film the wolf children when asked about female  protags he said this  You are happy if you are surrounded by friends and family and you are a loser if you are on your own, or you are happy because you are married with children and you aren’t happy if you aren’t married and have no kids…those views are totally irrelevant, and this : I like the idea of using female protagonists because most lives of men are focused on the success or failure of their careers, while other big events, like marriages and raising children, play bigger parts in the lives of women, leaving more space for artistic creation.

 

 

The movie wolf children itself had a female girl named yuki be very tomboyish as a child but since she wasn't girly as other girls she became an outcast but as she got older and became more girly she became accepted. I remember another interview of hosoda saying yuki becoming more girly and submessive is way of showing her being a strong female character and maturity.

 

even tv tropes pointed it out : Yuki lets go of her plucky attitude along with her love of collecting bugs and animal skeletons to fit in more with other girls. While to a Japanese audience, it makes sense as conformity is more encouraged in their society, to a Western audience the message might look more like "different is bad". While Hana does tell Yuki to just be herself, it only seems to fall on deaf ears. The fact that she goes through a Girliness Upgrade in the process also reflects Japan's stricter enforcement of gender roles.

 

And her brother ame became a loner he also got bullyed and became an outcast and at the end of the film parted ways from the family as a wolf.


Edited by rikakim94, 20 January 2018 - 06:23 AM.


#25854 James S Cassidy

James S Cassidy

    Heaven and Earth Deity

  • Banned
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,831 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 20 January 2018 - 07:16 AM

Never thought I'd actually have the guts to write this, but I feel a lot of people were misreading Naruto from the beginning. 

 

People looked at Naruto and saw him as a victim, the underdog who is going to fight his way to #1. They connected to him because of his sob story and believed the story would end with everyone seeing how great he actually is. This is why Hinata's love is seen as so pure even though it started way before his character development as an adult. People even played up his victim status, leading to fanon like a civilian council making Naruto's life a living hell and him chased by mobs of villagers with the intent to cause bodily harm in retaliation for the Kyuubi attack years prior.

 

But that's not what the story tries to say, isn't it? It doesn't indulge in Naruto's victim status, with Kakashi saying during the Wave arc that Naruto never cried about being alone. Naruto's situation created a darkness within him, one that allowed him to relate with villains he saw as evil versions of him, and a big deal is made at the end that Naruto could have easily joined them. But he didn't, he didn't allow the hate to consume him. Instead, he learned to work towards the good of the village. To serve it, and when his son is dealing with his own loneliness Naruto tells him to suck it up.

 

You see, this is the thing: For all the messed up stuff we see Konoha do, in the end it's all about contributing for this community. The Hyuuga create a slave class of their members? Doesn't change, and Neji chooses to die protecting main member Hinata like he was supposed to as a branch member. Naruto ends up yelling at his son at the end of the manga for the same prank he himself pulled when we first met him. The Leaf ostracized the Uchiha clan and when the plan to brainwash them into being loyal didn't work out, instead they have Itachi massacre his entire family for the good of the Leaf. And then after learning the truth about this, Sasuke wants it to remain hidden while performing jobs Konoha can't officially be tied to as a form of trying to make up for what he did. Sarada comes to idolize Naruto and follow in his example, while Boruto wants to serve the Leaf like Sasuke.

 

Naruto was not about fighting the system. It never was. For as messed up as it is, the characters still want to protect it with Kiwaki being set up as the bad guy for wanting to end it. It's about joining the system, not rebelling against it. If you get wronged by society, it's on you to just suck it up while still contributing to it.

 

Which, really, makes sense considering how bullying is handled in Japan. In Nippon, teachers will tell students suffering from bullying to try and fit in better with their classmates. The kids doing the bullying justify their actions by saying because the victim doesn't fit in, they are rejecting the rest of the group. There's even cases where kindergarten teachers encourage this behavior, telling the other kids to laugh.

 

https://thisjapanese...-ijime-bullies/

 

And then people wonder why Japan has high suicide rates among students, along with students who refuse to go to school. And consider who Naruto was targeted at. He's not the escapist character people make him out to be, his story is him getting in line with the rest of society. That's what not giving into hate and absolving people for their crimes comes down to, it's about letting go of your personal feelings and supporting the group that victimized you. Because they're not at fault here, you are if you lash out in response. And it's why when Naruto became a ninja and contributed to Konoha, protecting it, that people other than Hinata began to approve of him.

 

It's a very Japanese moral that doesn't translate well to Western culture, which values the individual more. We were raised on the scrappy underdog coming out on top with everyone recognizing how great they actually are. Naruto is the anti-Rocky. Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated. And in a sense, it makes you wonder how compatible Naruto really was with Western sensibilities.

 

Consider that the tradition view in Japan is group harmony (what I've been talking about here), male leadership (Tsunade being a woman being used as a reason why she's weak) and submissive women (Hinata). Naruto is a distinctly Japanese series, but because of the escapist nature of anime few Westerners actually picked up on this.

You think the American audience would be against such a thing seeing how...well, look at how SJWs work and all about "Respecting ones own image and mindset," but apparently they are okay with this. It's funny how a culture that is opposite of Japan supports this story writing, but the country itself that follows the same structure hates it. Is it that Japanese kids don't like the idea of "following the crowd" and more for "individualism?"

 


Edited by James S Cassidy, 20 January 2018 - 07:17 AM.

My gofundme
https://www.gofundme...c-designer-fund

Δικός σου για να κρατάτε
Σ'αγαπώ

#25855 Phantom_999

Phantom_999

    Heaven and Earth Deity

  • Kyuubi
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,987 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Canada

Posted 20 January 2018 - 12:13 PM

Never thought I'd actually have the guts to write this, but I feel a lot of people were misreading Naruto from the beginning. 

 

People looked at Naruto and saw him as a victim, the underdog who is going to fight his way to #1. They connected to him because of his sob story and believed the story would end with everyone seeing how great he actually is. This is why Hinata's love is seen as so pure even though it started way before his character development as an adult. People even played up his victim status, leading to fanon like a civilian council making Naruto's life a living hell and him chased by mobs of villagers with the intent to cause bodily harm in retaliation for the Kyuubi attack years prior.

 

But that's not what the story tries to say, isn't it? It doesn't indulge in Naruto's victim status, with Kakashi saying during the Wave arc that Naruto never cried about being alone. Naruto's situation created a darkness within him, one that allowed him to relate with villains he saw as evil versions of him, and a big deal is made at the end that Naruto could have easily joined them. But he didn't, he didn't allow the hate to consume him. Instead, he learned to work towards the good of the village. To serve it, and when his son is dealing with his own loneliness Naruto tells him to suck it up.

 

You see, this is the thing: For all the messed up stuff we see Konoha do, in the end it's all about contributing for this community. The Hyuuga create a slave class of their members? Doesn't change, and Neji chooses to die protecting main member Hinata like he was supposed to as a branch member. Naruto ends up yelling at his son at the end of the manga for the same prank he himself pulled when we first met him. The Leaf ostracized the Uchiha clan and when the plan to brainwash them into being loyal didn't work out, instead they have Itachi massacre his entire family for the good of the Leaf. And then after learning the truth about this, Sasuke wants it to remain hidden while performing jobs Konoha can't officially be tied to as a form of trying to make up for what he did. Sarada comes to idolize Naruto and follow in his example, while Boruto wants to serve the Leaf like Sasuke.

 

Naruto was not about fighting the system. It never was. For as messed up as it is, the characters still want to protect it with Kiwaki being set up as the bad guy for wanting to end it. It's about joining the system, not rebelling against it. If you get wronged by society, it's on you to just suck it up while still contributing to it.

 

Which, really, makes sense considering how bullying is handled in Japan. In Nippon, teachers will tell students suffering from bullying to try and fit in better with their classmates. The kids doing the bullying justify their actions by saying because the victim doesn't fit in, they are rejecting the rest of the group. There's even cases where kindergarten teachers encourage this behavior, telling the other kids to laugh.

 

https://thisjapanese...-ijime-bullies/

 

And then people wonder why Japan has high suicide rates among students, along with students who refuse to go to school. And consider who Naruto was targeted at. He's not the escapist character people make him out to be, his story is him getting in line with the rest of society. That's what not giving into hate and absolving people for their crimes comes down to, it's about letting go of your personal feelings and supporting the group that victimized you. Because they're not at fault here, you are if you lash out in response. And it's why when Naruto became a ninja and contributed to Konoha, protecting it, that people other than Hinata began to approve of him.

 

It's a very Japanese moral that doesn't translate well to Western culture, which values the individual more. We were raised on the scrappy underdog coming out on top with everyone recognizing how great they actually are. Naruto is the anti-Rocky. Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated. And in a sense, it makes you wonder how compatible Naruto really was with Western sensibilities.

 

Consider that the tradition view in Japan is group harmony (what I've been talking about here), male leadership (Tsunade being a woman being used as a reason why she's weak) and submissive women (Hinata). Naruto is a distinctly Japanese series, but because of the escapist nature of anime few Westerners actually picked up on this.

 

I'm not saying you're wrong because much of what you say makes perfect sense, but if that is the idea then it is it is contradicted by a few of factors which again just shows Masashi Kishimoto's incompetence and lack of talent or forethought in writing, if that is the case. First off, Naruto was not bullied for being different, he was HATED for being the container of Kurama, which is not something about conforming to something else to begin with. Naruto was always seen as a monster by almost all of the village, so conforming would be pointless as they would still despise, avoid, and ostracize him and he never would have founded out why even after his death his death if Mizuki did not blab out loud to him him the actual reason for the village's hatred of him. Of course even disregarding that, Naruto was willing to do anything to change the village's views on him from pulling pranks to wanting to be Hokage, so if the message to conform to society Naruto would not have been wanting to be so defiant of the norm in the first place and would have just accepted that he is the village pariah and would have lived out his days as such, logically speaking.

 

Also If those messages were the intent from the beginning, I don't see why  Naruto would shout out to Neji that he would change the Hyuga clan's policies, and instead would tell him to suck it up and accept it. That is the Japanese mentality of conforming and the solution to suffering from physical, social, and mental, finacnial, etc. problems; to suck it up and accept anything and everything which again is contradictory. In fact, Why would Minato tell Naruto that it was the Ninja system it self that gave birth to "Pain" and inspire Naruto to try change the ninja system ultimately by the Manga's last quarter? that seems to be an even bigger contradiction to the supposed intention of that "conforming to society" message. And the biggest contradiction of all is that Naruto was PROPHESIED to change the ninja system as a sort of "Jesus figure" that would end world conflict and bring peace to the world when, again, if it was about conforming to the system he would just accept the system as is and do nothing about it and instead be another mindless work zombie to feed and continue the system.

 

I believe that you are completely correct but I don't think it was ever the "intention from the start". it ended up BEING so as a consequence and byproduct of two significant factors. Kishimoto wanted to spinelessly worm his way out of the franchise because he was sick and tired of it. So he said to Shueisha to "do what you want with Naruto" I don't care anymore. I believe some members here here can confirm that, even though "evidence" was erased as a conspiracy cover up. Second, remember Naruto was not the end of the series, it was paving way to the "new era project", which is starring the whiny, wangsty Boruto as the main character and it would be a completely boring story in Shueisha and SP's minds if it did not have ninjas in it anymore because that ultimately what Naruto's core concept was about. So they decided to keep the premise as is, which is WHY Naruto ended up conforming to the system; so that Shueisha and SP can continue their money making dance with or without Masashi Kishimoto since Shueisha technically owns Naruto's manga and SP owns the anime license for the franchise. I only take solace in the fact that their greed more or less blew up in their faces, although Boruto is not completely dead which is my biggest gripe so far :down:


Edited by Phantom_999, 20 January 2018 - 10:03 PM.

3fbe3276d61acb2079b56cd2212a341c14963200


#25856 James S Cassidy

James S Cassidy

    Heaven and Earth Deity

  • Banned
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,831 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 20 January 2018 - 10:48 PM

 

I'm not saying you're wrong because much of what you say makes perfect sense, but if that is the idea then it is it is contradicted by a few of factors which again just shows Masashi Kishimoto's incompetence and lack of talent or forethought in writing, if that is the case. First off, Naruto was not bullied for being different, he was HATED for being the container of Kurama

This is very true. Look at Gaara who was specifically labeled to be just like Naruto. Was a container with a tailed beast and hated for being that beast itself. Gaara was seen as a monster because he harbored one. Same with Naruto who they saw as a monster because he harbored one.

Although, it is funny that Gaara achieved greater than Naruto in a shorter amount of time despite both pratically being the same. In fact, Gaara didn't even have friends at all up til that point, but Naruto did.

How funny that Gaara was able to get that far and his village was far more accepting than Naruto's own village.


My gofundme
https://www.gofundme...c-designer-fund

Δικός σου για να κρατάτε
Σ'αγαπώ

#25857 TheFirstEvil100

TheFirstEvil100

    Elite Jounin

  • Elite Jounin
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2,495 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:England
  • Interests:Reading and watching Naruto, play on my PS3 playing on my Pokemon games mainly Pokemon X right now I also like watching good Horror films.

Posted 21 January 2018 - 12:23 AM

You know I have just gotten done watching all ther flims from both the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings and there is something that Frodo says that is so true.

 

"How do you pick up the threads of an old life? How do you go on, when in your heart, you begin to understand, there is no going back?"

 

"There are some things that time cannot mend. Some hurts that go too deep… that have taken hold."



#25858 James S Cassidy

James S Cassidy

    Heaven and Earth Deity

  • Banned
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,831 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 21 January 2018 - 12:37 AM

Wait, I just had a brain blast.

Gaara was able to achieve so much more than Naruto in the shorter amount of time because Gaara wasn't chasing after a "best friend/ambiguously homosexual love partner" and didn't focus any attention on a stalker girl. Think about this. People ask what Naruto would have been if Sasuke, Hinata and Sakura weren't in his life. You'd get Gaara. Gaara is Naruto without the stupid plot dramas and insipid overdramatic bull of an ambiguously gay duo.

Because he was not muddled by the drama...he achived everything much faster.

Gaara even has a mother who sacrificed for him and loved him more than anything and he achieved being a Kage long before Naruto because he wasn't looking just for "validation," but to actually change the system.

Gaara is a far more successful character.


Edited by James S Cassidy, 21 January 2018 - 12:56 AM.

My gofundme
https://www.gofundme...c-designer-fund

Δικός σου για να κρατάτε
Σ'αγαπώ

#25859 Gravenimage

Gravenimage

    Heaven and Earth Deity

  • Kyuubi
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,535 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:South Pearl Ponce Puerto Rico

Posted 21 January 2018 - 12:53 AM

Wait, I just had a brain blast.

Gaara was able to achieve so much more than Naruto in the shorter amount of time because Gaara wasn't chasing after a "best friend/ambiguously homosexual love partner" and didn't focus any attention on a stalker girl. Think about this. People ask what Naruto would have been if Sasuke, Hinata and Sakura weren't in his life. You'd get Gaara. Gaara is Naruto without the stupid plot dramas and insipid overdramatic bull of an ambiguously gay duo.

Because was not muddled by the drama...he achived everything much faster.

Gaara even has a mother who sacrificed for him and loved him more than anything and he achieved being a Kage long before Naruto because he wasn't looking just for "validation," but to actually change the system.

Gaara is far more successful character.

 

The revelation hit me so hard like a ton of bricks falling on me. But I'd prefer if Naruto NEVER met Sasuke and Hinata and he knew Sakura. He would have hooked up with her who knows, maybe when they became genins. 


Edited by Gravenimage, 21 January 2018 - 12:53 AM.

Gravenimage

Lone Wolf of the Grave








#25860 RulesofNature

RulesofNature

    Chakra Water Walker

  • Chakra Water Walker
  • PipPip
  • 447 posts

Posted 21 January 2018 - 01:51 AM

Wait, I just had a brain blast.

Gaara was able to achieve so much more than Naruto in the shorter amount of time because Gaara wasn't chasing after a "best friend/ambiguously homosexual love partner" and didn't focus any attention on a stalker girl. Think about this. People ask what Naruto would have been if Sasuke, Hinata and Sakura weren't in his life. You'd get Gaara. Gaara is Naruto without the stupid plot dramas and insipid overdramatic bull of an ambiguously gay duo.

Because he was not muddled by the drama...he achived everything much faster.

Gaara even has a mother who sacrificed for him and loved him more than anything and he achieved being a Kage long before Naruto because he wasn't looking just for "validation," but to actually change the system.

Gaara is a far more successful character.

 

Not to mention Gaara did have a childhood where they attempted to mold him into a weapon. Naruto being simply hated by his village pales in comparison to actually having attempts made on your life. Gaara suffered firsthand the problems of the ninja system, whereas Naruto went into his Genin assignment sheltered and ignorant of the reality of the world around him. In many ways, it never fully clicked for Naruto because of this, so despite his empathy he elects to continue the system.

 

 

 

I'm not saying you're wrong because much of what you say makes perfect sense, but if that is the idea then it is it is contradicted by a few of factors which again just shows Masashi Kishimoto's incompetence and lack of talent or forethought in writing, if that is the case. First off, Naruto was not bullied for being different, he was HATED for being the container of Kurama, which is not something about conforming to something else to begin with. Naruto was always seen as a monster by almost all of the village, so conforming would be pointless as they would still despise, avoid, and ostracize him and he never would have founded out why even after his death his death if Mizuki did not blab out loud to him him the actual reason for the village's hatred of him. Of course even disregarding that, Naruto was willing to do anything to change the village's views on him from pulling pranks to wanting to be Hokage, so if the message to conform to society Naruto would not have been wanting to be so defiant of the norm in the first place and would have just accepted that he is the village pariah and would have lived out his days as such, logically speaking.

 

Also If those messages were the intent from the beginning, I don't see why  Naruto would shout out to Neji that he would change the Hyuga clan's policies, and instead would tell him to suck it up and accept it. That is the Japanese mentality of conforming and the solution to suffering from physical, social, and mental, finacnial, etc. problems; to suck it up and accept anything and everything which again is contradictory. In fact, Why would Minato tell Naruto that it was the Ninja system it self that gave birth to "Pain" and inspire Naruto to try change the ninja system ultimately by the Manga's last quarter? that seems to be an even bigger contradiction to the supposed intention of that "conforming to society" message. And the biggest contradiction of all is that Naruto was PROPHESIED to change the ninja system as a sort of "Jesus figure" that would end world conflict and bring peace to the world when, again, if it was about conforming to the system he would just accept the system as is and do nothing about it and instead be another mindless work zombie to feed and continue the system.

 

I believe that you are completely correct but I don't think it was ever the "intention from the start". it ended up BEING so as a consequence and byproduct of two significant factors. Kishimoto wanted to spinelessly worm his way out of the franchise because he was sick and tired of it. So he said to Shueisha to "do what you want with Naruto" I don't care anymore. I believe some members here here can confirm that, even though "evidence" was erased as a conspiracy cover up. Second, remember Naruto was not the end of the series, it was paving way to the "new era project", which is starring the whiny, wangsty Boruto as the main character and it would be a completely boring story in Shueisha and SP's minds if it did not have ninjas in it anymore because that ultimately what Naruto's core concept was about. So they decided to keep the premise as is, which is WHY Naruto ended up conforming to the system; so that Shueisha and SP can continue their money making dance with or without Masashi Kishimoto since Shueisha technically owns Naruto's manga and SP owns the anime license for the franchise. I only take solace in the fact that their greed more or less blew up in their faces, although Boruto is not completely dead which is my biggest gripe so far :down:

 

Yeah. I was looking at it too much through the lens of what they tried to pass the morals off as, as Naruto transitioned from being a fantasy protagonist to the father of a fantasy protagonist. They had to try and make something so that Naruto's journey wouldn't seem worthless, and what they came up with was the antithesis of the story up until that point as well as the creators shoving the oppressive social attitudes Japanese read manga to escape from into the final draft.

 

Unless you want to say Naruto promising to end Hyuuga slavery was just him being a child and the adult thing to do is accept it.


iSP2FNe.png

Just making your day a little brighter.






Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: naruto, wtf, discuss

5 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 2 guests, 0 anonymous users


    Google (1), Bing (2)