4869 replies to this topic

[Froot]

The spoilers will be posted when they become available. So chill out 'til then!

Edited by Froot, 09 December 2009 - 01:14 AM.

[Myth]

''The reason why True wants us to stop the bashing is because he doesn't want us to lower ourselves to the other fandom's levels''

absolutely we're better than that coz other fandoms acting like child always bashing not respectable
you cant argue with them..

so yeah we're different.

[Froot]

Hm... That sounds a lot like bashing to me

[TwilightLink20xx]

It is, but it sadly is the trend, EVEN FOR NARUSAKUS. Most pairings fans tend to smear each other, and I for one would not like to see our people do that, it makes us look bad. The main reason that people avoid certain pairs, and sometimes it includes us, is oftentimes because of the way the fans act.

It is my belief that we ought to be better than that, and not going to that level, otherwise you will not only hurt your own personal reputation, but hurt ALL of our reputations simply because of guilt by association. It's something that I've seen far too much of, especially in debates, and I think that we really need to remember debate etiquette at all times. Anyways, back to the debating.

Hopefully by the years end we have a hint or are heading into Sakura's POV, we NEED to know that to figure out just what Kishimoto wants us to gleam from all that we've had so far.

[jinsterr]

Rightly said Twilight.

Yeah, I don't think turning ourselves into those radical Anti-NS fans will make us any better than them if we do the same thing with NaruHina and SasuSaku :\

[Froot]

If we just knew what Sakura was thinking...

Since many have considered this arc the ''Sakura Arc,'' what better time for some major revelations on her part?

[TwilightLink20xx]

This was a very interesting comment conversation/debate I had on YouTube, I'm wondering what you all think of this, it is indeed regarding Chapter 474.

God, I don't think Kishi could have been clearer about the fact that Sakura loves Sasuke. If she did love Naruto, Sai would have said something like: Listen Naruto, I know it didn't seem that way, but Sakura really loves you and she is willing to dispose of Sasuke herself because she loves you and she wants to lessen your burden. Don't you think?

I'm not saying that narusaku will never happen. It is still a very far away (time-skip) possibility, but this chapter would have been a great opportunity to develop narusaku but Kishi chose to do otherwise for some unknown reason.

Here's my retort to this: No. I know you're going to ask why I would take that position, as it means going against my Ship. There are two reasons. 1. It kills the love triangle, thus ending the sub-plot. From a financial stance, to kill the sub-plot would not be the wisest thing to do.

And 2. Because the Sasuke issue NEEDS to be addressed, for both Sakura and, more importantly (as this chapter clarifies), Naruto's sake. Those of us NaruSakus knew this was coming. It NEEDS to happen, otherwise there will be individuals that will say "Sakura only chose Naruto because Sasuke wasn't around!". Kishimoto doesn't want to make Naruto a rebound character for Sakura, therefor, he is taking care of that side of the equation.

So all in all, this is NOT meant to be easy to see, it is meant to make NaruSaku fans scrounge for the details, it is meant to make people believe that Sakura may still have feelings for Sasuke to keep the love triangle alive. In other words, this is all part of the plan.

Moreover, Kishimoto has been developing NaruSaku a LOT over the course of the manga, and for all we know, this INCOMPLETE situation is one big shove towards it. You have to remember that this whole situation has not reached a true conclusion at all. People are calling it as if the moment is over. Guess what? It's not, and this chapter proves that it's a lot more complicated then the majority of readers are thinking. Kishimoto is playing with his audience, let's wait to see what's behind the door

[Miss Soupy]

Yeah, Kishi has developed NS in little ways the majority of part II. It's obvious he wants to explore the other pairings too; the characters feelings can't be left unfinished and he wants them to develop towards his ending. Not to mention he is setting up a huge roadblock for his hero to overcome.

Really, to me, that was the most important part of the recent chapter. It wasn't about romance as much as it was about forcing Naruto to face reality.

Interestingly, I have used the same argument before. I once asked a debater why kishimoto didn't develop Naruto and Hinata's bond when he had plenty of good chances to do so. The response I was give was 'it would make the pairing too obvious'.

At this point, I think kishimoto really is going out of his way to make sure all of the pairings aren't too obvious.

[Froot]

Very well said, Twilight and Soupy. I agree with it all.

As you said, Twilight, I always knew Sakura/Sasuke would have to be adressed before anything happened with Naruto/Sakura. And that is EXACTLY what this chapter was for, to set things up. Kishi wants to tie all loose ends before moving on. Smart.

Now the Sasuke issue will be even easier to address, now that Naruto's close to jumping on the Sasuke is a Threat Bandwagon.

So, basically, at this point, it seems to me to be between NaruSaku-SasuSaku. They both have a chance of happening. What makes NaruSaku different? A lot of time investment in the manga.

Soupy, concerning the NH argument... It's similar to another argument I'd heard.

The NH fan was playing the ''NaruSaku is cliche'' card (which isn't even an argument, so much as a reason you don't like NaruSaku) saying NaruHina should happen because it is unexpected, to which I replied, ''You mean random?''

Twilight also continuously points out that the Main Guy X Main Girl theme is no longer a cliche, but an archetype. It's hard to make a good story without such an archetype.

[roninmedia]

The whole obviousness and cliche argument reminds me of the Peanuts Comic Strip where Snoopy is writing in a manner to throw the reader off. There is a difference between masking the intention of the plot for drama or mystery purposes, but it's another thing to have it come of essentially. If NaruSaku is a red herring, that is easily the biggest red herring I've ever seen.


Here is what Snoopy wrote in the comic.

""It was a dark and stormy night. Suddenly, a shot rang out! A door slammed. The maid screamed. Suddenly, a pirate ship appeared on the horizon! ""

[TwilightLink20xx]

Twilight also continuously points out that the Main Guy X Main Girl theme is no longer a cliche, but an archetype. It's hard to make a good story without such an archetype.

Heh, I think I've overkilled that argument, the problem is that they don't understand one word I'm saying more than half of the time, so they typically blow it off. The sad thing is, all they'd have to do is sit down and watch a documentary on Star Wars to understand almost all of it. In the world of literature, very few cliches are truly cliche. If you're seeing it in two works on different sides of the globe from different times, then you KNOW it's an archetype. Besides, how on earth do they expect the love interest for the main character to NOT get screentime? You HAVE to show that character often, otherwise it won't be done effectively.

Anyways, the only reason I use that argument is BECAUSE we've had so many moments that have happened CONSISTENTLY throughout the Manga, it actually has a bit of justification. It's not like the others that have one moment in a blue moon.

[ciardha]

The spoilers will be posted when they become available. So chill out 'til then!

Mangahelpers have put up some pending spoilers. Not confirmed so take them with a grain of salt.

There was a nice one posted but some people are guessing it's fake that has Naruto and Yamato going after Sakura, Kakashi and Temari (as Suna's representative) heading to Konoha and Gaara and Kankuro heading back to Suna. It also had some narusakuish and shiktemish implications. I'd love it but it's probably by one of the pro narusaku (and apparently also pro shikatem) fake spoiler people. It says something good about how popular narusaku is getting amongst the Japanese fans that lately they are posting fake pro narusaku spoilers fairly often.

[Jenskott]

Interestingly, I have used the same argument before. I once asked a debater why kishimoto didn't develop Naruto and Hinata's bond when he had plenty of good chances to do so. The response I was give was 'it would make the pairing too obvious'.

Then we can hope for NaruIno?

Since Kishimoto hasn't done it obvious at all, no romantic feelings have been hinted and they don't talk at each other much, it must be the most possible pairing!

Wow! One of my favorite crack pairings is in reality the most possible pairing!

Honestly. Fifteen years ago, when Ranma 1/2 was still ongoing, I came across a Ranma/Shampoo shipper who claimed "Ranma and Akane will not end up together because Rumiko Takahashi isn't so predictable!". Guess what? They DID end up together (kind of. Certainly Ranma didn't hook up with Shampoo).

It isn't a matter of -apparently undesirable- predictability, but of being coherent with your story's development.

And regarding that "this chapter would have been a great opportunity to develop narusaku but Kishi chose to do otherwise for some unknown reason" bit: it was stated in this chapter Sakura has chosen Naruto over Sasuke and has decided killing her ex-teammate in order to protect Naruto. It sounds like development to me.

And do you remember back when Naruto was depressed cause Jiraiya's death and he got cheered up by Iruka and Shikamaru? Then we were also hearing "this chapter would have been a great opportunity to develop narusaku but Kishi chose to do otherwise for some unknown reason". As far I can tell, the reason was Iruka and Shikamaru were in a better position for understanding and reaching out to Naruto, and he wasn't going to write a ton of scenes where different characters have to heal Naruto's sorrow. Naruto would have came across like pathetic. However Kishimoto DID develop NaruSaku later on.

Kishimoto CAN afford not develop NaruSaku at every turn because they are main characters and have plenty appearances, But he can't afford not develop NH at every turn because Hinata scarcely appears. Still, he has wasted all chances he had. Chapter 450 is a great example of this.

And why didn't he kill SasuSaku? The answer is simple: drama keeps readers reading. He is playing the "Whom will she choose?" and "Will they or Won't they?" cliches in order to stir drama. After all, he has been playing that game for the entirety of Part II, implying Sakura was in love with Naruto and also hinting she may not be completely over Sasuke. This is not different, and we shall see how it all comes ahead to a conclusion.

I also think he is taking care of loose ends: Hinata confessing his love resolves the question about her feelings (I always thought it was quite obvious, but regrettably many anti-NH fans refused seeing it, right like many anti-NS fans refuse seeing Naruto loves Sakura and Sakura has fallen in love with Naruto). And I think Naruto ignoring her completely during and after the battle, and she beaming at Sakura while she hugged Naruto resolves the question about what Naruto would do if she ever confessed (answer: nothing), and kills the speculative "If Hinata would have confessed/survived, Naruto and she would have got together" argument.

Oh, and True is right: let's not bash other fandoms, not matter how tempted we feel sometimes. I try not stoop down to it, but I guess sometimes I may have walked out of line, and I apologize if I have done so.

Mangahelpers have put up some pending spoilers. Not confirmed so take them with a grain of salt.

There was a nice one posted but some people are guessing it's fake that has Naruto and Yamato going after Sakura, Kakashi and Temari (as Suna's representative) heading to Konoha and Gaara and Kankuro heading back to Suna. It also had some narusakuish and shiktemish implications. I'd love it but it's probably by one of the pro narusaku (and apparently also pro shikatem) fake spoiler people. It says something good about how popular narusaku is getting amongst the Japanese fans that lately they are posting fake pro narusaku spoilers fairly often.

Mm... Indeed, it sounds not quite right (right like that chapter 451's fake spoiler where Naruto didn't remember Hinata's confession, and later she and Kiba were talking). A pity why I would also love it.

I still remember a anti-ST fan stating people were overplaying that Shikamaru/Temari scene post-timeskip. Stating Naruto asked if they were dating and they plainly and simply denied it.

I thought: "Yes, and Asuma and Kurenai also denied they were dating when Kakashi asked." Moreover, every time Temari goes to Konoha she runs into Shikamaru, and they while away together. If it is coincidence, it's a very amusing kind of coincidence.

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

In the long run, guys, I think the biggest things to think of are the whys behind some of the actions involving Naruto and Sakura. Besides wanting to save Sasuke for himself and Sakura, Naruto wanted to obviously have things the way they used to be. I think that's why it hurts him so much now to make a decision on whether or not he can acually kill Sasuke, as his friend.

And as for Sakura, as I've seen, she's choosing to do this because of protecting the last bit of deceny Sasuke has and to protect Naruto from him and his "allies" the Akatsuki. But also, we've seen some of her other actions show she's thinking about Naruto as well. Like when she didn't tell Naruto about her agenda to kill Sasuke, or about her being wounded by him during the battle with Orochimaru, or wanting to learn Tenzo/Yamato's Jutsu in order to help Naruto better.

And even her decision to become Tsunade's apprentice came from wanting to not only save Sasuke but to help Naruto as well. As I said, it's plain as day that Sakura was hurt Naruto couldn't keep his promise, but what I think hurt Sakura the most is seeing that, in her mind, because of her begging to Naruto, that Naruto got so badly hurt, and she didn't want to see him hurt like he was again.

That, guys, is something you got to notice. That many of the actions Naruto and Sakura have toward one another are to help one another in a way or another. That's what's most important in a NaruSaku fan's defense. The thing is, since many people who are SasuSaku and NaruHina fans want their pairings to win badly, they don't see the obvious clues because of that fact.

The problem also is we need to be able to not fight with one another, in spite of how hard it is due to pride in our ships for both sides. But then again, I guess it can't be helped... in the long run.

Bryon

[jinsterr]

In the long run, guys, I think the biggest things to think of are the whys behind some of the actions involving Naruto and Sakura. Besides wanting to save Sasuke for himself and Sakura, Naruto wanted to obviously have things the way they used to be. I think that's why it hurts him so much now to make a decision on whether or not he can acually kill Sasuke, as his friend.

And as for Sakura, as I've seen, she's choosing to do this because of protecting the last bit of deceny Sasuke has and to protect Naruto from him and his "allies" the Akatsuki. But also, we've seen some of her other actions show she's thinking about Naruto as well. Like when she didn't tell Naruto about her agenda to kill Sasuke, or about her being wounded by him during the battle with Orochimaru, or wanting to learn Tenzo/Yamato's Jutsu in order to help Naruto better.

And even her decision to become Tsunade's apprentice came from wanting to not only save Sasuke but to help Naruto as well. As I said, it's plain as day that Sakura was hurt Naruto couldn't keep his promise, but what I think hurt Sakura the most is seeing that, in her mind, because of her begging to Naruto, that Naruto got so badly hurt, and she didn't want to see him hurt like he was again.

That, guys, is something you got to notice. That many of the actions Naruto and Sakura have toward one another are to help one another in a way or another. That's what's most important in a NaruSaku fan's defense. The thing is, since many people who are SasuSaku and NaruHina fans want their pairings to win badly, they don't see the obvious clues because of that fact.

The problem also is we need to be able to not fight with one another, in spite of how hard it is due to pride in our ships for both sides. But then again, I guess it can't be helped... in the long run.

Bryon

You hit some really good points about the reasons behind the decisions Naruto and Sakura make. It's for each other mostly. And it's also for the sake of gaining back what they'd lost as Team 7--a valuable friend and team-mate.

And I can't imagine how difficult it must be to consider possibly killing someone you've regarded as not only your best friend, but as your brother. As for Sakura, while I can imagine it is equally as difficult for her, I think she came to her decision/resolve to kill Sasuke as you'd said it: to save whatever semblance of goodness Sasuke has left, as well as to protect Naruto and prevent a war from starting because of him. Her not telling Naruto about the real plan is just her way of shielding him from getting hurt.

Again, she's put his feelings and well-being in mind. Sakura did say that she wanted to save both Naruto and Sasuke this time, and I believe this is her way of doing just that.

Yeah... I don't see a point of a fanwar either. We all love the Naruto fandom, I think that should be enough despite our differences in pairings ;__; But sadly that isn't the case. Otherwise that will only be too easy.

[pinkheartsyellowstars]

Guys is just wanted to ask, Does Sasuke really state that Sakura filled his existence?
I got a debate from a SS fan, and I don't know if its true or not?

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

Guys is just wanted to ask, Does Sasuke really state that Sakura filled his existence?
I got a debate from a SS fan, and I don't know if its true or not?

I so do not remember him saying that. All this time, from Part 1, Sasuke was confused about Sakura at times, in spite of his saying she was annoying.

Bryon

[Jenskott]

Guys is just wanted to ask, Does Sasuke really state that Sakura filled his existence?
I got a debate from a SS fan, and I don't know if its true or not?

Short answer: no.

Long answer: he never, ever, said something like that. I don't know where that person got that idea from.

Actually, if you remember his last battle versus Gaara, he asked why should he leave his darkness since there was nothing for him out of it. He stated loudly he had no reason for coming back.

Sakura was a teammate he accepted reluctantly. Now, she is nothing to him. And she has been nothing for three years.

[jinsterr]

Guys is just wanted to ask, Does Sasuke really state that Sakura filled his existence?
I got a debate from a SS fan, and I don't know if its true or not?

Yeah I don't recall ever reading that Sakura "filled" Sasuke's existence anywhere. He didn't say such a thing. Sakura was just a team-mate and just a friend, but with the way Sasuke is now I don't think he even considers her either of those things anymore, let alone someone who "fills his existence." His existence, as he has time and time again stated, is to be an avenger.

So yeah... I don't know where they're getting these things from :\

Edited by jinsterr, 09 December 2009 - 06:00 PM.

[Nick Soapdish]

It is, but it sadly is the trend, EVEN FOR NARUSAKUS. Most pairings fans tend to smear each other, and I for one would not like to see our people do that, it makes us look bad. The main reason that people avoid certain pairs, and sometimes it includes us, is oftentimes because of the way the fans act.

It is my belief that we ought to be better than that, and not going to that level, otherwise you will not only hurt your own personal reputation, but hurt ALL of our reputations simply because of guilt by association. It's something that I've seen far too much of, especially in debates, and I think that we really need to remember debate etiquette at all times. Anyways, back to the debating.

Hopefully by the years end we have a hint or are heading into Sakura's POV, we NEED to know that to figure out just what Kishimoto wants us to gleam from all that we've had so far.

Very well said.

And it's also bashing for us to explain that we don't want to "go to their level" because then we're just saying that they're bashers. Some of them are, but there are also NaruSaku fans that are bashers. If we're going to generalize about others, we shouldn't use their poorer examples.

Guys is just wanted to ask, Does Sasuke really state that Sakura filled his existence?
I got a debate from a SS fan, and I don't know if its true or not?

It's from one of the databooks. He doesn't say it anywhere unless that was his "thank you" in chapter 181.