31720 replies to this topic

[BlackShirtGuy]

 

Now @Blackshirtguy says I did not address Sasuke's Neglect. The thing is, this is not abuse. Sasuke simply does not function as part of the family. While I stress he should be making contact instead of prioritizing the mission, this is not abuse. It's a very different context to standard neglect cases, which people fail to grasp. This does not mean Sasuke's actions are not wrong, this is not being said. But this is not abuse. 

 

Uh boy, I simply just... 
Listen, if you are saying Sasuke doesn't work in a normal relationship you just proved everyone's point here, why did he married Sakura?? why in god's name did he concived a child with her? To restore his own clan? Then, why doesn't he trains her? Why is he never at home despite the only thing he's doing is wander around searching for criminal activity, why can't he just take a break and be in his flipping home for a change?
I'll tell you why, because that is not who he is, and before you tell me that he always prioritzied the mission or his own agenda, just look at all the times he did things that will cause problems to his own archivements, saving Naruto against Haku, offering the Heaven scroll to Orochimaru in the Forest of Death, telling Naruto to rescue Sakura and ran away in order to escape from Gaara, essentially sacrificing himself.
Notice something about this moments? They were all in part 1, looong before Sasuke's character started to degrade and I'm not talking about choosing revenge over his comrades, just for you know. Towards the end of the manga the only person Sasuke was still "friends" with was Naruto, he says so himself until Kishi threw everything under the bus just so he could make SS and NH canon.

My point being Sasuke knew full well the consequences of becoming a husband and a father, if he did it knewing he was not up to the task, it's still abusive even if he himself feels sorry for it, because he knew full well what he was doing, unless Sakura raped him or some kitten I don't know.

Regardless of Sasuke's whole character in Bourto and most of shippuden I think this describes it best:

[Qia]

As much as I agree of the abuse from Sasuke to Sakura, Sakura has also shown that she can be emotionally manipulative and, thus, emotionally abusive when it comes to him through her two confessions to him (the bench scene before he leaves and just before the genjutsu scene). Just wanted to add that since it may not be as obvious as someone getting physically abused. 

Edited by Qia, 31 August 2017 - 07:45 PM.

[sushi.]

As much as I agree of the abuse from Sasuke to Sakura, Sakura has also shown that she can be emotionally manipulative and, thus, emotionally abusive when it comes to him through her two confessions to him (the bench scene before he leaves and just before the genjutsu scene). Just wanted to add that since it may not be as obvious as someone getting physically abused. 

This is something a lot of NS fand ignore, because they don't like Sasuke but Sakura is not innocent and tried even to trick him into letting his guard down so she could kill him.

[The Doctor forever]

Wait, let me get this straight, so essentially for you: 
If abandoning your own daughter and wife for 12 years = abuse then punching someone for acting stupid/perverted = the same kind of abuse ??  

I litterally don't know how do you, how can you... just, what kind of logic are you using to reach this conclusions?
 

Its why Evil100 knows what he is talking about when both he and his own mother his sister and two older brothers an abuse victim both brothers who are not fans of anime or manga all know what they are talking about as they all saw it first hand after all, and just because of the whole enermy part she keeps using as well is old and dumb as well most of his famile mainly his grandfathers both fought in World War 2, no women and I mean none will not just keep loving Sasuke.

 

Mainly cause no sane women would do so I mean my sister a women and my own mother call BS.

[T XD]

 

The last line really hits what I am saying: If we are saying SS (Why is NH in this group?) is manipulative emotional abuse, then so is NS, to a lesser extent, and SNS to a greater extent. To clarify, because it keeps being said I believe this: I do not think -any- of these are abusive bonds, none. I am demonstrating by the conditional set, these would also, and as being demonstrated, it is found illogical. So why is SS not found so? I.E., if you are saying I am saying NS is abusive, then my point is being missed. I am specifically, very clearly, saying it is not. 

 

Now @Blackshirtguy says I did not address Sasuke's Neglect. The thing is, this is not abuse. Sasuke simply does not function as part of the family. While I stress he should be making contact instead of prioritizing the mission, this is not abuse. It's a very different context to standard neglect cases, which people fail to grasp. This does not mean Sasuke's actions are not wrong, this is not being said. But this is not abuse. 

 

But to @Ball of Lies specifically, I am not justifying abuse. I am not saying Sasuke's prioritization of his mission over his family is right. I am saying this is not abuse. I am also going to tangent, and saying that hitting your husband violently is wrong. Absolutely. There is playful hits both ways, and there is hitting out of anger, which is wrong. Gender makes no difference. I'm not ignorant to its comical use in anime, but this is completely different in reality. 

We know SS is abusive from both sides, but you can't say NS is partly abusive cause of Sakura's confession to Naruto. ' Abusive ' isn't the right word to describe it. She tricked him on making him believe that she doesn't have feelings for Sasuke anymore.

Edited by T XD, 31 August 2017 - 08:03 PM.

[T XD]

Sakura isn't Tsundere though. Boruto is more Tsundere than she or Sasuke, and the term doesn't fit Boruto either. 

 

The problem with the label, and essentially character trope labels in general, is that we try to expand it, so it fits the character, but also trying to fit characters into these labels. This causes the problem of accurately describing characters, and making the term Tsundere useless as a description. This is really the same thing with a lot of terms, I.E., Mary Sue, Moe, Retcon, summing things up wth a label that gets stretched, or stretching the material to fit the label, when it in actuality doesn't fit, nor is accurate. 

Sakura isn't Tsundere ? Are you serious ? Most of her character traits are for Tsundere.

 

Is the sun getting you high ?

[sushi.]

 

I wouldn't call that abusive though. She believes in that moment the only way to save him from his darkness was legitimately to kill him. I.E., she sees him as unsaveable in this moment and moves to take him down. She wasn't in the wrong. 

 

The second picture is right that I removed, FYI, and no one is saying that Sasuke isn't a bad person. No, that he was sent on a mission where he chose to prioritize it over checkingi n on his family is in itself not abusive, though it absolutely makes him an absent father and husband, and it's a fair criticsm of Sasuke to say he is a bad person. The missoin was integral, at least to Sasuke, as it was literally keeping the world safe. This is -not- an excuse, this is the answer to your question. Albeit this does not define abuse, abuse is not going on a mission and not checking in. Sarada is taken care of, though she does feel pain from her absent father, she is taken care of, albeit the parenting burden is uneven. I.E., the family dynamic more or less does not exist with him in it, but it is not abuse, it does not fit the definition, this would be an akin case to stretching a word to fit something, when it doesn't fit. 

 

FYI, Kishimoto didn't throw anything under the bus? He says each of these pairings were the plan, so that statement runs against that, making it false. 

Saving him from the darkness by killing him. Welp. Not abusive at all. In that situation she was thinking about Naruto more than Sasuke, but even if that example wasn't abusive I have quite the list. Sakura time and time again tried to manipulate Sasuke emotionally and made herself the victim because he didn't love her.

 

Also bolded, you constantly use that statement to refute all arguments that we have, but it doesn't work because we believe he told a lie and you know that already. You think Kishi's statements are automatically true but we don't. You should come up with a new trick.

[BlackShirtGuy]

 

 

The second picture is right that I removed, FYI, and no one is saying that Sasuke isn't a bad person. No, that he was sent on a mission where he chose to prioritize it over checkingi n on his family is in itself not abusive, though it absolutely makes him an absent father and husband, and it's a fair criticsm of Sasuke to say he is a bad person. The missoin was integral, at least to Sasuke, as it was literally keeping the world safe. This is -not- an excuse, this is the answer to your question. Albeit this does not define abuse, abuse is not going on a mission and not checking in. Sarada is taken care of, though she does feel pain from her absent father, she is taken care of, albeit the parenting burden is uneven. I.E., the family dynamic more or less does not exist with him in it, but it is not abuse, it does not fit the definition, this would be an akin case to stretching a word to fit something, when it doesn't fit. 

 

FYI, Kishimoto didn't throw anything under the bus? He says each of these pairings were the plan, so that statement runs against that, making it false. 

Well, well, well, didn't I just told you that Sasuke was the one that choose to go on a "journey of redemption", that's the excuse, first off why couldn't he just stayed in the village or at least near it and protect if from the shadows?
If he choose to do it, he's responsible for it, sames goes to Sakura if she choose to marry that guy and bear his child, she's responsible for it too. 
They are both responsible for Sarada's problems and kitten family situation and to add insult to injury I don't think they even told her stupid daughter how she was concived or even WHY she was concived, do you understand that the gaiden (the canon material  written by the author) says they are "together" (metaphorically, definetly NOT physically or emotionally) only for her flipping daughter?

On your last statement, FYI Sasuke himself says to Kakashi and Naruto that he doesn't care about Sakura at all and he doesn't know what she sees in him, and 6 chapters afterwads he's magically in love with her?? 
See, that's just screams last minute decision in order to ship-pandering (just so you know I'm pretty sure that nobody bought the "Sasuke was just rejecting his love for her" argument you've made before) also we need a movie (the only canon out of 7 movies not including the ones from part 1, might I add), just to explain another pairing and you expect me, anyone who is not biased to believe this wasn't a last minute decision?? Yeah, nice try, but it ain't gonna cut it.

[Nostradamus]

Tsunderes get zero love and understanding these days...

Sex dolls FTW.

[gamma]

Sex dolls FTW.

 

Hard pass. XD

[T XD]

All right, how exactly did Sakura try to do that? I'd like to see this list.

 

And I constantly say the statement because it is constantly true? Even if we say: "Kishimoto is lying", the counter argument does not sufficiently take in the sinking of NS mid-manga. If I line up a argument that is in line with the sources and the interview, and you make one based on the interviews being dishonest and the other not lining up with the manga, calling it dishonest, do you see that most would infer the first to be true, and the second, to rely on so many variables/I.E., conspiracy, to be true? 

It's your view that NS doesn't line up with the manga, but we see the manga presents the contrary of what you're saying.

 

No offense. Stop talking like it's a fact whereas it's your view and opinion on the matter.

Edited by T XD, 01 September 2017 - 05:53 PM.

[T XD]

 

It is though? If by line up, you mean, NS was supposed to be canon. To make it not a fact, we have to ignore the sinking of NS, ignore that Kishimoto said other pairings were planned, ignore these other pairings had development to make the ending plausible, ...and do you see the issue of calling this not a fact is? 

 

If we were saying NS had a chance, here's why, I would be 100% behind you. 

Don't waste your energy on typing cause I already know you're going to reply along these words that you replied with. We've been reading the same arguments since your day 1 here.

 

In short, for you regarding pairings : NH and SS are planned since the beginning. Kishimoto said this about NH and that about SS. The Last is consistent with the manga. NS is a red herring. Part 1 is enough for NH and SS.

 

If you were a lawyer with this unnecessary persistence, the judge in the courtroom would had jumped from the window.

[sushi.]

 
That's about right, though the exact red herring is just the Sakura/Kushina parallel at 631, to better conform with Kishimoto's statements. 

lol I thought you'd argue against that too. Glad we're on the same page for once.

Edited by sushi., 01 September 2017 - 06:49 PM.

[T XD]

 

That's about right, though the exact red herring is just the Sakura/Kushina parallel at 631, to better conform with Kishimoto's statements. 

 

Fair enough. 

I said " regarding pairings ". For you regarding characters, " Sakura and Kushina parallels are red herring " is one of your arguments about Sakura and about Kushina.

 

Don't worry. We know all of your arguments regarding all the aspects of the manga.

Edited by T XD, 01 September 2017 - 07:11 PM.

[sushi.]

 
That parallel between characters does have to do with a red herring for NS, thus my clarification. 

In narusaku land we call that a retcon since when written the parallel was intended as legit foreshadowing.

[NaruSaku fan in Kentucky]

If they think NaruSaku is abusive then they never watched much anime then.

[sushi.]

If they think NaruSaku is abusive then they never watched much anime then.

They're not targeting her taundereness but her confession. Not even saying NS is abusive just saying is SS is abusive then NS is, by our logic.

I also misunderstood at first.

[BlackShirtGuy]

They're not targeting her taundereness but her confession. Not even saying NS is abusive just saying is SS is abusive then NS is, by our logic.

I also misunderstood at first.

To be fair, saying "If a certain realtionship between two characters that were teammates and became enemies that tried to kill eachother is abusive then this other relationship between this character and this one is abusive since she lied about her feelings to him(according to HER opinion, at least)  only to stop him from doing something" doesn't have an inch of logic to me, then again, nothing of this person says out of her mouth is logical at all 

[sushi.]

To be fair, saying "If a certain realtionship between two characters that were teammates and became enemies that tried to kill eachother is abusive then this other relationship between this character and this one is abusive since she lied about her feelings to him(according to HER opinion, at least)  only to stop him from doing something" doesn't have an inch of logic to me, then again, nothing of this person says out of her mouth is logical at all 

Yep shes trying, and failing, to use our own words against us.

[Nostradamus]

 

It is though? If by line up, you mean, NS was supposed to be canon. To make it not a fact, we have to ignore the sinking of NS, ignore that Kishimoto said other pairings were planned, ignore these other pairings had development to make the ending plausible, ...and do you see the issue of calling this not a fact is? One is not Kishimoto, I am told, so one bases their statements on what he says and correlates them with what he wrote, because those are facts. We cannot conditionally ignore facts because we wish to, then call statements that source to those facts as "views and opinions". 

 

If we were saying NS had a chance, here's why, I would be 100% behind you, and if that's what you mean, great, I agree. But suggesting NS was some stolen pairing at the end or the like? Not with you there. 

I see, so you were reading the alternative version of the manga.