31720 replies to this topic

[Riverkid]

 

For the Naruto aspect it's specifically the lack of a library, so to speak, to see and understand whether what he felt that it was romantic or platonic. I have elaborated on this point further in former posts. You don't explicitly get what you are asking because 1: Kishimoto did not wish to tip his hand, and yes 2: It is not a romance. What I have done is convey to you, or try to anyway, the validity of essentially Naruto falling in the love he already had, that these feelings existed, using patterns of intensity in this bond of mutual admiration and manga sources, which I elaborated on earlier. I.E., the Narrative Intent to read is not "X wants relationship with Y", but "X and Y end up together", and this is the foundation for it.

How can someone debate abot 'platonic' or 'romantic' if there aren't feelings shown to debate about it. lol. 
the more you write, the more it makes less sense

[Qia]

 

I get where you come from,  but while we can suggest that this was the last straw sorts, which is an argument I've seen, the only clear source of supported information is that Naruto went to an immediate six tails because of Hinata,  I.E., this bond caused this reaction. 

 

Which is why I don't think the "In the corner" works persay, because he would have been taken away without this action, in the sense that he was defeated. 

I disagree because in that same chapter Naruto is reminded by mama frog that Jiraiya and papa frog gave up their lives believing in him to be the child of prophecy that would change the world. Watching another friend, Hinata, about to be killed by Pain was what caused the reaction..not because they have some special bond which you seem to be implying. 

 

That's an assumption. 

[Qia]

 

Perhaps, and it's not invalid, but I do not believe that Mama's frogs words connect to anything. This is because the source doesn't connect anything else as setting up the trigger. It just says one person, who happens to have a pattern of pulling him out of despair, which is part of what makes it special, persay. 

? What source are you talking about? 

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

 

Perhaps, and it's not invalid, but I do not believe that Mama's frogs words connect to anything. This is because the source doesn't connect anything else as setting up the trigger. It just says one person, who happens to have a pattern of pulling him out of despair, which is part of what makes it special, persay. 

As was mentioned, you're completely ignoring the type of character Naruto is (or was anyway) in that he saw everyone in Konoha as his "precious people", as in people he would fight to protect and even die for. Naruto would have exploded in rage no matter who was in Hinata's position. It could have been some nameless villager who treated him badly as a kid and simply wanted to try to make amends by standing between him and Pein while asking for Naruto's forgiveness and it would have resulted in the same thing because, to Naruto, there would be no difference between that villager and Hinata.

Also, there is no "pattern" of Hinata "pulling Naruto out of despair". Only that one moment after Neji's death. As a child, it was Hiruzen and Iruka who pulled Naruto out. After Sasuke, it was Jiraiya and Sakura who pulled Naruto out. With Gaara's death, it was Chiyo who pulled Naruto out. After Orochimaru at the bridge, it was Sakura who pulled Naruto out. Against Pein, it was Minato who pulled Naruto out. Against Kurama, it was Kushina who pulled Naruto out.

[Qia]

 

When Naruto talks about what drove him to use Kurama's power each time to the Great Toad. When he brings up the pain fight, he only mentions Hinata as the reason, rather than it be anything likened to a last straw. 

 

Lol which is why I said she was the trigger. If you flip to the previous page, Naruto even admits that he didn't have the strength to stop the Kyu from overtaking his mind, hence why he never went to him again. HOWEVER, there was still hatred in his heart, and after seeing Hinata almost die by Pein's hands it triggered this loss of control. Again...nothing to do with their bond specifically. Not unless you make that extra assumption. 

Edited by Qia, 30 August 2017 - 08:33 PM.

[The Doctor forever]

 

 

 

ARE YOU KIDDING ME??

 

Where do you get off telling anyone who disagrees not to bash, yet bashing others in almost the same breath? Talking down to users, forcing your opinions as FACT then telling anyone who refutes it that you are highly educated so perhaps they don't understand your vocabulary??

 

You are not a mod. And  you are not Kishimoto. Your statements are opinion only. And they are no more valid than anyone else's opinion.

 

No one cares who you ship. Everyone is welcome here. The only stipulation is that you respect others. But time and again you have crossed that line.

 

So this is your single warn. The incessant arguing with members, hijacking the thread to argue purported 'facts' that neither you nor any other member can verify, belittling them with passive digs, then ending your post with a 'but let's not bash' comment, is not acceptable here.

 

You can continue on at this site and post under threads so long as they relate to the topic at hand, with the understanding that posts represent your opinion only. If you don't back off with the arguing, it will result in a site ban, with the length of time tbd.

Thanks Tricks, she is the reason Evil100 a good friend left this site, being the bigger man he just walked away but I am happy you have stepped in may tell him he can come back.

[Bail o' Lies]

Out of genuine curiosity who here can't claim they have some higher education in some way shape or form? Naruto was on toonami over a decade ago now. Most of the kids that grew up watching it are adults or are on the cusp of adulthood. Also going to college is so common now days almost every adult has been to college in the US, Europe, and most of the western world. So bragging about higher education is very smug & elites, but also shows incredible ignorance. Since everyone on this site most likely has had some form of higher education at this point.

 

Thanks Tricks, she is the reason Evil100 a good friend left this site, being the bigger man he just walked away but I am happy you have stepped in may tell him he can come back.

So Evil really did leave because of her...I didn't want to assume when you told me.

[Bail o' Lies]

Coming from a military background, you'd be surprised how many actually go straight into joining. 

 

That said, I apologized for my part regarding that comment, but I cannot be held responsible for Evil's leaving. 

Yes I was a military brat, even the soldiers can go to college, and often do.

[The Doctor forever]

Out of genuine curiosity who here can't claim they have some higher education in some way shape or form? Naruto was on toonami over a decade ago now. Most of the kids that grew up watching it are adults or are on the cusp of adulthood. Also going to college is so common now days almost every adult has been to college in the US, Europe, and most of the western world. So bragging about higher education is very smug & elites, but also shows incredible ignorance. Since everyone on this site most likely has had some form of higher education at this point.

 

So Evil really did leave because of her...I didn't want to assume when you told me.

Yeah it was the whole SS thing that done for him, saying its not abuse when he knows first hand what abuse is like since he saw what his dad did to him Mum first hand and he hates it he hates the he has his dad's blood in him, and he thinks a part of him will become like him, add to the fact Evil100 mum his own mother said SS is bad, as he showed her all the manga he had and what Sasuke did to Sakura before they were married.

 

Plus he turned 30 on the 20th as well, he told me he would never treat a women the way Sasuke treated Sakura

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

While I empathize with the above, it's just problematic to move the entire SS thing into real world morality parameters. Abusive doesn't really fit the relationship, because by the same definition, Naruto and Sasuke's relationship is abusive, and even to al esser extent, Naruto and Sakura's. I don't agree with that definition, and neither of the latter two are, and neither really is the SS, because we keep forgetting the context that they are practically enemies for so long. 

Naruto and Sakura's relationship is not abusive. The main reason is because whenever they are having Sakura hit Naruto (which is usually only in response to when Naruto does something stupid / unintentionally perverted), they go out of their way to make them both look and act very over-exaggerated in order to make it clear that it's purely comic relief that is not to be taken seriously, just like any other anime before and after that has done such a thing, yet I don't see any of the same people that are accusing NS of being "abusive" accusing those other relationships of being "abusive" for doing the exact same thing.

Compare that to the times Sasuke has been bad towards Sakura - no over-exaggeration in the action, no anime-style distorted faces for comic relief; just dead seriousness and then sadness after.

[Kagomaru]

Naruto and Sakura's relationship is not abusive. The main reason is because whenever they are having Sakura hit Naruto (which is usually only in response to when Naruto does something stupid / unintentionally perverted), they go out of their way to make them both look and act very over-exaggerated in order to make it clear that it's purely comic relief that is not to be taken seriously, just like any other anime before and after that has done such a thing, yet I don't see any of the same people that are accusing NS of being "abusive" accusing those other relationships of being "abusive" for doing the exact same thing.

Compare that to the times Sasuke has been bad towards Sakura - no over-exaggeration in the action, no anime-style distorted faces for comic relief; just dead seriousness and then sadness after.

*blinks* Y'know, the fact that she considers a pairing she "supports" to be abusive definitely tells you something, doesn't it?  I think the pretense of objectivity finally cracked on her end.

Edited by Kagomaru, 31 August 2017 - 01:51 PM.

[sushi.]

*blinks* Y'know, the fact that she considers a pairing she "supports" to be abusive definitely tells you something, doesn't it?  I think the pretense of objectivity finally cracked on her end.

I don't think she understands abusive is about violence + power, one part has and takes advantage over the other person in a violent way. Ex. Sakura pours her heart out to Sasuke and when she's on her knees he responds by killing her in her mind.

So you don't have to like that kind of humour but call a spade a spade - when it's comic relief it's just that.

[BlackShirtGuy]

 

I think I made it clear that this was not my position, and I'm uncertain how you derived to this conclusion. I was essentially constructing a statement that stated if -this- was abusive, then this must also be so, though I do not think either is. My statement also has nothing to do with the hitting aspect of NS, which is what was focused on.

 

To restate, Sasuke is a criminal, he is not in a romantic relationship with Sakura, they are on opposing sides. Sakura pours her heart out, distraught with the situation, and Sasuke knocks her out so she is not in the way. If -this- is abusive, then so is the soldier shooting at you from across the fence. It doesn't make sense. 

 

Essentially, applying abuse is not right.

 

Now saying unhealthy? Yes.Sasuke did not deserve the devotion of either of his team-mates, particularly in the pain it brought them. 

Wait, let me get this straight, so essentially for you: 
If abandoning your own daughter and wife for 12 years = abuse then punching someone for acting stupid/perverted = the same kind of abuse ??  

I litterally don't know how do you, how can you... just, what kind of logic are you using to reach this conclusions?
 

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

Wait, let me get this straight, so essentially for you: 
If abandoning your own daughter and wife for 12 years = abuse then punching someone for acting stupid/perverted = the same kind of abuse ??  

I litterally don't know how do you, how can you... just, what kind of logic are you using to reach this conclusions?

 

I literally don't get it either. Is it just 'cause we are used to any form of violence in this country counting as abuse even if it isn't as bad as TRUE abuse? It is kind of worrying to think like that when it's obvious how Sakura and Naruto are is more about comedy than true abuse, unlike the crap Sasuke has done to Sakura over the years.

[Kagomaru]

 

I literally don't get it either. Is it just 'cause we are used to any form of violence in this country counting as abuse even if it isn't as bad as TRUE abuse? It is kind of worrying to think like that when it's obvious how Sakura and Naruto are is more about comedy than true abuse, unlike the crap Sasuke has done to Sakura over the years.

As we both know, NaruSaku is about as "abusive" as a Tom and Jerry skit.   Whenever Naruto is hit by Sakura, it's as a reprimand when he is being stupid/perverted/reckless and the injuries are literally gone by the next scene/panel.  She never deals him actual and sustained damage. It's the equivalent of a light slap upside the head in anime/manga.   It's no different than Lina punching Gourry,  Kagome sitting Inuyasha, Kaoru hitting Kenshin with her bokken, Amy whapping Sonic with her hammer(when she actually catches him), etc, all of which is usually in reaction to their male love interest saying or doing something inane.  It's a humorous Japanese gag that's been in anime since the 60's and no harm is genuinely done.  The notion that it's harmless fun is also supported by the fact that the males being "abused" are typically depicted to be physically stronger/more powerful than their female counterparts outside of these scenes.

 

Unlike Sasuke trying to strangle and stab Sakura twice(the latter happening both when Sakura tried to kill him and when Sasuke used her as a makeshift cover to stab Madara), mindraping her and abandoning his family for 12 years, which have *gasps* serious and persistent consquences on those involved.

Edited by Kagomaru, 31 August 2017 - 04:55 PM.

[BlackShirtGuy]

 

 

The equivalency on NS's part is not drawn towards "punching someone for acting stupid/perverted", as was assumed, though I've never enjoyed seeing it be flanderized. It's actually drawn at the pursuit of Sakura being self-focused, and when making them not it actually makes it worse, now you have her using him, and then the false confession, ouch. Granted my position is this is not abusive, I defend the latter was done with good intentions in mind, and the former is self-focused. Still., the Kage Summit Arc was not a pretty point., and it has shades of unhealthiness, but you know, nothing is perfect, and it never simmers like that again.

 

So with SS, we have what, a moment they were legitimately going to kill eachother, and Sasuke getting her out of the way so he can fight Naruto. Adding that they're not in a relationship, it -cannot- be abusive, any more than the former can. There are shades of unhealthiness, more so than the former, but less so than Sasuke and Naruto's bond, which is a whole other can of worms. I.E., I argue that the Team 7 dynamic was not the healthiest, though will push that the Naruto/Sakura one is the healthiest of the three. Flawed, but no relationship is perfect. 

So not even gonna comment on the "abandoned his child and wife for 12 years" part, huh?
If you really think the fake confession is abusive (which we discussed this before, the fake part was only  what she said about Sasuke, if not, why  would Kishi defended her actions in an interview afterwards?) , then, boy am I sooooo sorry to tell you, but you don't know jack about abuse.
Second, if you really think this "marriage" between Sasuke and Sakura is not abusive when a child didn't even met her own father until she was 12, then I'm gonna tell you, IT. IS. ABUSIVE. , negligence is a type of abuse, which Sasuke is 100% guility off and no amount of sugarcoating by the studio, forehead pokes, or angry SS shippers complaining will change that, because that, my lady, IT'S. A. FACT.

[Nostradamus]

Wait, let me get this straight, so essentially for you: 
If abandoning your own daughter and wife for 12 years = abuse then punching someone for acting stupid/perverted = the same kind of abuse ??  

I litterally don't know how do you, how can you... just, what kind of logic are you using to reach this conclusions?
 

You're searching for logic and reason where there is none.

[T XD]

@ Analyzer :

 

Your view of NS is bizarre. NS is partly abusive cause of Sakura's confession ?

 

One has to study Paleontology to understand the logic of what you're saying.

[Bail o' Lies]

@ Analyzer : Your view of NS is bizarre. NS is partly abusive cause of Sakura's confession ?

 

One has to study paleontology to understand the logic of what you're saying.

Careful she might have some "higher education learning" in that.

 

Also I just love when someone left the site because she was justifying the abuse of SS which was apparently very similar to the abuse to they (or/and their mother) had from their father, she just says ignore that because it makes SS look "problematic." Despite SS and nH being realistic was one of her major stances and is considered a good thing. Then she immediately goes off on how bad NS if realistic.

 

You know what studies have shown that it is very common for a couple to fight even in healthy relationships and for the woman to hit the man far more often then the man hitting the woman. You know why that not seen as a bad thing, and is very often the source of comedy, and in-fact is very frequent source of comedy in manga/anime? It because woman aren't as physically strong as men. An average woman hitting a guy is often barely a slap to an average man, while a good solid punch from the average guy can at the very least floor an average woman if not knock her out. 

 

What often considered worse is manipulative emotional abuse which SS and nH both have in spades. 

[gamma]

Tsunderes get zero love and understanding these days...