4869 replies to this topic

[Miss Soupy]

Nice essay jinsterr ^^ Though, I would have to agree that Sai probably implied romantic love for Sakura towards Sasuke. But one thing that I did see is that the person who explained the japanese (innera) also translated a comment left by the person putting up spoilers. Essentially their comment was, Which one does Sakura love more? Sasuke or Naruto? This question coming from the japanese fandom really puts into perspective what kishimoto might have been getting at here. This confusion over who Sakura loves the most.

I have seen people comment that we have been thrown back to the beginning of the story pairings. That Hinata -> Naruto -> Sakura -> Sasuke -> revenge love...square-thing. I have to say that is it is far more complicated than it was in the beginning of the story. Where Hinata, Naruto, and Sasuke's feelings are still as they were, it is Sakura who is far less sure about herself and who her love is. Would part I Sakura EVER reach the decision that part II Sakura did in regards to Sasuke? I doubt it, part I Sakura was good and ready to help him get revenge. Obviously Sakura has changed; but changing doesn't mean she has completely blocked out her feelings altogether for her first love. And also, her situation with Naruto has just gotten a whole lot more complicated. Where before she and Naruto were essentially at the same level, both working hard together to get Sasuke back, now Naruto is clearly ahead of her. I can't imagine this not bothering her, not when she wanted to stand by his side and fight with him. I'm sure, in some way, it has hurt her that Naruto is moving without her and keeping her in the dark. But, because of who Naruto is, she has been forced to do the same back to him. Perhaps it shows how alike they are: both wanting to protect the other and end up working alone.

While this chapter, in a complicated way, does confirm SS to some extent, can one honestly say they see this pairing becoming canon? First of all we have Sasuke who has shown no romantic feelings towards Sakura and probably won't be changing any time soon. Second, we have the way kishi has portrayed the pairing. Sakura's love for Sasuke began as a vain love that was selfish and hurt Naruto. Not exactly a good way to start, but I think Sakura did develop more mature feelings later on. However, she was not ready to confess, but was forced to, and it ended in rejection. From there on out, Sakura has only received heartbreak in return for her emotions. In fact, any relationship linked to Sasuke has suffered in some way. Is this a pairing that kishimoto wants to make canon when he has always portrayed it as dark and hurtful? Compare this to Naruto's pure love for Sakura and her growing fondness and respect towards Naruto. Where SS started off as hurtful, sort of stabilized itself with one or two good scenes, and then fell back to being heartbreaking, NS is one that has developed mutually in a good way for both characters.

As far as NH...unfortunately, with every chapter I believe it is losing its chances. It needs development, and never got any focus. And it could have; there are many many places Kishimoto could have developed a bond between Naruto and Hinata, and yet he was always focused on the one-sidedness of this pairing. And at this point, I believe it is so weak as a pairing that it needs SS in order to live at all. The biggest factor blocking NH is Naruto's love for Sakura, and the only way Naruto would honestly back out of loving Sakura is if she was with Sasuke in the end. So really, I think this is where all the side-shipping comes from. There is a dependency on SS in order to create a chance for NH, which is kind of sad.

So yeah, NS is still the most likely pairing in my eyes.

[ciardha]

Hey guys... I posted my thoughts on ch 474 on the NaruSaku community on LJ, however, some stuff that I wrote I have already posted here, but I do elaborate quite a lot more.

CLICK HERE

It's kinda sad how I had to answer to some very skeptical NaruSaku shippers.

Posted a couple of replies there. Heh, totally forgot that I was made a maintainer there- bad me! I've changed the setting to allow only registered users, that cuts down on trolls anywhere on LJ immensely. I thought about choosing the option to log all IPs as well, but I'll see if cutting out anons does the trick.

Edited by ciardha, 06 December 2009 - 07:10 PM.

[jinsterr]

Posted a couple of replies there. Heh, totally forgot that I was made a maintainer there- bad me! I've changed the setting to allow only registered users, that cuts down on trolls anywhere on LJ immensely. I thought about choosing the option to log all IPs as well, but I'll see if cutting out anons does the trick.

Ohh you're a maintainer there?!! That's awesome! I've been meaning to ask if I could also be a maintainer there too since I do spend a lot more time on LJ and I'd like to spread more NaruSaku support anywhere I can ^^;; If it's not too much trouble that is.

Anyway, thanks for the comments and thanks so much for changing the settings. The last thing I want is to get into a stupid debate with a troll >.>

Edited by jinsterr, 06 December 2009 - 07:42 PM.

[jinsterr]

Nice essay jinsterr ^^ Though, I would have to agree that Sai probably implied romantic love for Sakura towards Sasuke. But one thing that I did see is that the person who explained the japanese (innera) also translated a comment left by the person putting up spoilers. Essentially their comment was, Which one does Sakura love more? Sasuke or Naruto? This question coming from the japanese fandom really puts into perspective what kishimoto might have been getting at here. This confusion over who Sakura loves the most.

I have seen people comment that we have been thrown back to the beginning of the story pairings. That Hinata -> Naruto -> Sakura -> Sasuke -> revenge love...square-thing. I have to say that is it is far more complicated than it was in the beginning of the story. Where Hinata, Naruto, and Sasuke's feelings are still as they were, it is Sakura who is far less sure about herself and who her love is. Would part I Sakura EVER reach the decision that part II Sakura did in regards to Sasuke? I doubt it, part I Sakura was good and ready to help him get revenge. Obviously Sakura has changed; but changing doesn't mean she has completely blocked out her feelings altogether for her first love. And also, her situation with Naruto has just gotten a whole lot more complicated. Where before she and Naruto were essentially at the same level, both working hard together to get Sasuke back, now Naruto is clearly ahead of her. I can't imagine this not bothering her, not when she wanted to stand by his side and fight with him. I'm sure, in some way, it has hurt her that Naruto is moving without her and keeping her in the dark. But, because of who Naruto is, she has been forced to do the same back to him. Perhaps it shows how alike they are: both wanting to protect the other and end up working alone.

While this chapter, in a complicated way, does confirm SS to some extent, can one honestly say they see this pairing becoming canon? First of all we have Sasuke who has shown no romantic feelings towards Sakura and probably won't be changing any time soon. Second, we have the way kishi has portrayed the pairing. Sakura's love for Sasuke began as a vain love that was selfish and hurt Naruto. Not exactly a good way to start, but I think Sakura did develop more mature feelings later on. However, she was not ready to confess, but was forced to, and it ended in rejection. From there on out, Sakura has only received heartbreak in return for her emotions. In fact, any relationship linked to Sasuke has suffered in some way. Is this a pairing that kishimoto wants to make canon when he has always portrayed it as dark and hurtful? Compare this to Naruto's pure love for Sakura and her growing fondness and respect towards Naruto. Where SS started off as hurtful, sort of stabilized itself with one or two good scenes, and then fell back to being heartbreaking, NS is one that has developed mutually in a good way for both characters.

As far as NH...unfortunately, with every chapter I believe it is losing its chances. It needs development, and never got any focus. And it could have; there are many many places Kishimoto could have developed a bond between Naruto and Hinata, and yet he was always focused on the one-sidedness of this pairing. And at this point, I believe it is so weak as a pairing that it needs SS in order to live at all. The biggest factor blocking NH is Naruto's love for Sakura, and the only way Naruto would honestly back out of loving Sakura is if she was with Sasuke in the end. So really, I think this is where all the side-shipping comes from. There is a dependency on SS in order to create a chance for NH, which is kind of sad.

So yeah, NS is still the most likely pairing in my eyes.

Thank you so much for reading my essay

Yeah, I agree that Sai is probably implying a romantic inclination on Sakura's end and I don't deny that either. And I do agree that Sakura's feelings for Sasuke aren't as shallow as they'd been in part 1 because I never thought Sakura's feelings to be cut and dry to begin with.

However, I do believe that despite Sakura's feelings for Sasuke I can't imagine them being stronger than the feelings she has for Naruto. I don't know how one can possibly love someone strongly when 1) they weren't very close to begin with (Sasuke and Sakura don't have the kind of bond Sasuke and Naruto had) & 2) Sasuke has been absent for a very long time too. Not to mention he's clearly not the same Sasuke from before.

While Sakura does love Sasuke... he still does not have any feelings for her. Like you said, Sakura knows he doesn't and she probably knows he never will. If Naruto couldn't convince Sasuke to come back--and they have a stronger bond than Sasuke and Sakura--I doubt Sakura would have been able to convince Sasuke either. The same thing can be said for NaruHina--Naruto doesn't really interact with Hinata. For that pairing to be genuine, Kishi would need to top the 300+ chapters of develop NaruSaku has received, which I also doubt he's going to now. Plus, SasuSaku and the NaruHina pairings both lack what NaruSaku has: development on both sides. The SS/NH ships are both one-sided and don't have much depth or substance to even make their ship remotely possible. For SS to happen, Kishi would need to have Sasuke reciprocate Sakura's feelings or at least start showing that he cares... which, from what we've read in the manga, seems moot because Sasuke, to me, is already forgone to start any emotional attachments, let alone love.

[ciardha]

Ohh you're a maintainer there?!! That's awesome! I've been meaning to ask if I could also be a maintainer there too since I do spend a lot more time on LJ and I'd like to spread more NaruSaku support anywhere I can ^^;; If it's not too much trouble that is.

Anyway, thanks for the comments and thanks so much for changing the settings. The last thing I want is to get into a stupid debate with a troll >.>

I'm on LJ fairly often, just got a bit busy with liberal activist stuff with some of my other 40 something feminist friends this past year, we're in a foundation building stage right now though, so I have more time again for sheer fun stuff.

The founder had to give up working on it, but I'm one of three maintainers so I don't want to jump in and change things too radically, cleaning up a few things in the profile, changing the comment setting, changing the club icon- it was getting pretty old and I'm not a big fan of flashing text to start with. I changed it to a narusaku pic of my dolls. If the other two maintainers have a narusaku pic they created they want to use that's cool. I consider mine more a placeholder. It's so tiny that the some of the picture quality is lost from the original.

[Nick Soapdish]

Posted a couple of replies there. Heh, totally forgot that I was made a maintainer there- bad me! I've changed the setting to allow only registered users, that cuts down on trolls anywhere on LJ immensely. I thought about choosing the option to log all IPs as well, but I'll see if cutting out anons does the trick.

Is that why it has a Mature Content notice now?

[jinsterr]

I'm on LJ fairly often, just got a bit busy with liberal activist stuff with some of my other 40 something feminist friends this past year, we're in a foundation building stage right now though, so I have more time again for sheer fun stuff.

The founder had to give up working on it, but I'm one of three maintainers so I don't want to jump in and change things too radically, cleaning up a few things in the profile, changing the comment setting, changing the club icon- it was getting pretty old and I'm not a big fan of flashing text to start with. I changed it to a narusaku pic of my dolls. If the other two maintainers have a narusaku pic they created they want to use that's cool. I consider mine more a placeholder. It's so tiny that the some of the picture quality is lost from the original.

Haha yeah I did notice how the community was kinda looking old in its setting, along with the icon lol. But I totally understand that you guys have probably been busy. I just wanted the NaruSaku comm to be just as active as the fanclubs here :3 And it would be nice for a bit of a change too.

Well, if I can be a maintainer there please let me know! I'd love to take part. That's only if it's okay with you guys though.

Thanks

[jinsterr]

Is that why it has a Mature Content notice now?

Oh wow I never noticed that till now. Well, I do see some really hot NaruSaku fanart there so it's not too far off

[Jenskott]

Posted a couple of replies there. Heh, totally forgot that I was made a maintainer there- bad me! I've changed the setting to allow only registered users, that cuts down on trolls anywhere on LJ immensely. I thought about choosing the option to log all IPs as well, but I'll see if cutting out anons does the trick.

That's good. Mizura has a heap of rude, insulting comments of trolls in her pro-NaruSaku, anti-NH essays. And surprise, surprise not, the most of them are from anonymous users.

[ciardha]

Is that why it has a Mature Content notice now?

Yeah I saw there were some M rated fanfics and smexy fanart posted and went=oops! I better upgrade that setting to mature concepts now. The founder started the club before those ratings went into effect so it was still sitting at the default no mature content. It's sort of a medium rating suitable for most fanclubs. The highest setting- explicit images is basically just for porn related communities.

Yeah, jenskott I posted chapters 1-6 of Rain or Shine ages ago and every so often some anon troll would post a nasty comment. For some reason chapter 3 was the one that got the most hit and run troll attacks.

jinster, let me wait a couple of weeks and see if I hear anything from the other two maintainers.

Edited by ciardha, 06 December 2009 - 08:35 PM.

[jinsterr]

jinster, let me wait a couple of weeks and see if I hear anything from the other two maintainers.

Sure thing

[Jenskott]

Yeah, jenskott I posted chapters 1-6 of Rain or Shine ages ago and every so often some anon troll would post a nasty comment. For some reason chapter 3 was the one that got the most hit and run troll attacks.

Gee, how predictable. Of course, you find that kind of comments in numerous NS fics. Medicinal Lullaby? It had a bunch of comments bashing Sakura and begging Shivakashi turn it into a NaruMoegi. Precious People? A lot of people accused Peanutbutter from ripping off Team 8, and there were trolls screaming she had ruined the history for making it NaruSaku. Training for the Job? A troll tried talking into turning it a NaruIno by spamming him...

Personally I use to erase that kind of comments. I keep comments mentioning my poor grammar and spelling, but I nuked out comments of spammers and trolls. Then again, I haven't published one fic in a very long time.

[ciardha]

Gee, how predictable. Of course, you find that kind of comments in numerous NS fics. Medicinal Lullaby? It had a bunch of comments bashing Sakura and begging Shivakashi turn it into a NaruMoegi. Precious People? A lot of people accused Peanutbutter from ripping off Team 8, and there were trolls screaming she had ruined the history for making it NaruSaku. Training for the Job? A troll tried talking into turning it a NaruIno by spamming him...

Personally I use to erase that kind of comments. I keep comments mentioning my poor grammar and spelling, but I nuked out comments of spammers and trolls. Then again, I haven't published one fic in a very long time.

Oh mine were all sasusaku trolls, always with some Sakura bashing thrown in. Strange thing was Rain or Shine is probably one of the most pro Sasuke but completely Narusaku fics out there.

[socermania2]

There's something that NH/SS fans don't seem to understand.

In Japan, having a quiet, subtle while expressing is more romantic, than kissing or hugging around.

http://tvtropes.org/...issonance/Anime

So the friend argument doesn't hold.

Not only that, it crushes the SS thing, making it seem nothing more than a selfish love.

[Derock]

There's something that NH/SS fans don't seem to understand.

In Japan, having a quiet, subtle while expressing is more romantic, than kissing or hugging around.

http://tvtropes.org/...issonance/Anime

So the friend argument doesn't hold.

Not only that, it crushes the SS thing, making it seem nothing more than a selfish love.

I had to say that this is very true. Japanese culture is VERY different than American. And that's why people couldn't grasp it. Hell, the target age over at Japan is basically seeing NaruSaku as the potential couple for the series. But here, we have to see the hugging and kissing in drawing/written detail for a canonical couple.

And this basically saying that NaruSaku is following "Actions speak louder than words" quote.

[Freakazoid]

I wouldn't mind more insight from japanese fans about the pairing buisness. Any place to go to browse around on what they're saying?

[Derock]

I wouldn't mind more insight from japanese fans about the pairing buisness. Any place to go to browse around on what they're saying?

If you speak, write, type, and understand Japanese. Its like finding a needle in a haystack.

I might gonna ask my sensei on Wednesday when we have class to see about the mannerisms of a Japanese couple.

[Jenskott]

Oh mine were all sasusaku trolls, always with some Sakura bashing thrown in. Strange thing was Rain or Shine is probably one of the most pro Sasuke but completely Narusaku fics out there.

So they were Sakura haters who ship SasuSaku because they want Sakura becomes Sasuke's manhood trophy?

Honestly, I can't figure out other reason for Sakura-haters shipping SasuSaku. Sasuke doesn't love her and he certainly doesn't want her. So why his fans would want he hooked up with her?

And you are right. It's strange. Why would they flame your fic? You weren't bashing Sasuke.

Perhaps they scrolled down the page, noticed someone had got the nerve of writing a NS fic and they couldn't stand the thought.

Today I checked a new Starchii fanart and it was full with the usual trollish comments from anti-NS (and panic based on misinformation and faulty premises from NS fans). Honestly, fandom can be so childish...

There's something that NH/SS fans don't seem to understand.

In Japan, having a quiet, subtle while expressing is more romantic, than kissing or hugging around.

Exactly! That "It was only a friendly hug!" argument made no sense. There are no such a thing like friendly hugs in Japan.

I had to say that this is very true. Japanese culture is VERY different than American. And that's why people couldn't grasp it. Hell, the target age over at Japan is basically seeing NaruSaku as the potential couple for the series. But here, we have to see the hugging and kissing in drawing/written detail for a canonical couple.

As far as I know, NS is quite more popular in Japan than in the West. I guess they are already used to the shonen manga mythos and tropes, and know reading hints we can miss.

For example, the feeding scene. So many anti-NS fans tried underplaying it like a simple display of friendship (despite the body language hinted something very different)! But in Japan that is something only one couple would do (I remember a Ranma 1/2 chapter where Ranma tried feeding Kuno and he refused on the grounds of Ranma being a man. But then Ranma switched to his female form and Kuno was just glad to oblige).

[tekopi]

Sorry, I'm trying to sort out the pic here...so I can fully understand. You mean like the scene where Sakura hug Naruto after he defeat Nagato, right?

I might be a somewhat late naruto fans, but honestly from the beginning of the first Naruto I've seen (whether its manga or anime, it doesn't matter), the first thing that come across my mind is the 'sparks' between Naruto-Sakura, the way they interact each other.

I try to take into account and put myself into NH or SS shoe, but rationally thinking, I don't see that kind of pairing is gonna happen in any way.

Sorry But I'm not trying to bash that pairing whatsoever, I'm just saying it based on rational thinking on a few hundreds of manga reading, proofs, clues here and that and some asian way of life here.

[Devil Keyz]

^^ i agree, abou the Naruto-Sakura thing anyway. but i think it will end sorta like, Sakura ends up loving Naruto, telling Naruto this but Sakura saying that she doesn't make Naruto happy so he should be with Hinata, but Naurto saying he Loves Sakura dadadada, Hugging and End with them together