31720 replies to this topic

[AHK]

Not quite true though. Sasuke -tried- to kill Samurai and Cloud Ninja, but ultimately none were killed, injured, yes. 
 
How is he partly responsible for tens of thousands of deaths?
 
Yes, Sasuke plotted to murder the standing powers that be, and Naruto. Enslaving the rest of the world though isn't accurate.
 
When you think about it, Sasuke's "lack",  (Because being imprisoned is insufficient for you), of actual punishment, was direct work of Kakashi and Naruto. So are we upset at them then? Sasuke did save the entire world. That specifically played in to him allowing to be free.

No, it isn't untrue. It is a fact that Sasuke murdered samurai and the ninja he encountered on his way to the cloud.

By providing the piece of Bee to Obito, he expedited Obito's plan to resurrect the Juubi. Sasuke helped resurrect something that took the lives of tens of thousands of ninja. He is guilty.

Yes, it is accurate. He planned to kill everyone and name himself the leader of the world, and institute and force his will on the people under his forced rule. They were to be slaves.

Let's stop with the "Sasuke saved the world". His motivation was to clear out all obstacles in order for him to achieve his goal. Again, he is a murderer, responsible for thousands of deaths, planned to kill the leaders of the world, and rob everybody of their free will. Regardless of who put his sentence into place, it was a cop out. He got a few months of imprisonment for attempted murder, conspiracy to commit murder, murder, terrorism, mass murder/genocide, and more.

His handling in the story was awful. Not a surprise, since among the entire cast, he was the worst character of them (and that's including Naruto and Sakura, given what utter trash they became).

[AHK]

 

I'll give you the Samurai one.

 

Blaming Sasuke for the tens of thousands of deaths though? Now that's far-fetched. Particularly since he stands against the Ten Tails. Also, considering the piece of Bee was fake, it didn't do anything. This is why this part of the blame game falls apart.

 

They still weren't going to be slaves, as in direct servants. He meant himself to be an object of hate, so as to keep peace.

 

How is Naruto and Kakashi advocating for Sasuke to be freed, in part because he stopped Kaguya, awful writing? Your argument is that Sasuke was not punished enough, but two heroes of the war -advocated- for his punishment to be lessened .The circumstances that lead up to that decision make sense. It may not be enough for -you- to want him to be released, but it was enough for Naruto and Kakashi to, and with their influence, it was possible. Notable that Sasuke does not stay in society, he still has his sins to atone for, thus his journey.

 

You don't like it, and that's fine, but this in no way is awful writing, because how its done is reinforced with sensible reasons. 

 

Now, why were Sakura and Naruto utter trash to you?

No, it isn't far fetched. Firstly, the piece of Bee wasn't fake. Bee used a substitution to fool Sasuke. He replaced himself with one of Gyuuki's tentacles, which contained a significant amount of Gyuuki's chakra. Obito later used that exact tentacle to help resurrect the Juubi. If two men are standing in front of a kneeling man in a room, and one of the standing men hands the other a clip of bullets, and the second man puts those bullets into a gun and shoots the kneeling man, then they both are guilty of murder. Sasuke is guilty in the same way, except he provided Obito the means to mercilessly slaughter thousands of people. It doesn't matter if Sasuke later stood against it, he is still responsible for their deaths. Not to mention the fact that Sasuke wasn't fighting the Juubi, Obito, Madara, or Kaguya to make up for the deaths he caused, he did it for the sole purpose of whittling down opposition so that he could make play on power and take over the world for himself.

 

The very idea of him being the center of hate to keep peace is stupid in and of itself, not to mention hypocritical because he would be murdering anyone who stood against him. Furthermore, it's either obedience or die. That is very much slavery. He would force himself as ruler on people that don't agree with it, give them no say, and then kill them if they agree. They are not free to make their own choices. That is slavery.

 

As for his punishment, no, the circumstances that led up to it do not make sense. First of all, they are based on a lie. Kakashi and Naruto didn't tell anyone what Sasuke intended to do after the IT. Sasuke didn't save the world, he was trying to conquer it. It's awful writing because Sasuke is a murderer to a degree very few had achieved, a villain that rivaled the likes of the greatest to ever live, and Kakashi and Naruto were not impartial judges in their sentencing. Sasuke walking free gave nobody that died actual justice. Sasuke walking around free is an actual insult to them. Just because Naruto and Kakashi endorsed it, doesn't make it correct. Hashirama facilitated the use of Jinchuriki as a method to try and obtain peace with the warring villages, it didn't make it correct.

 

In no had anything Sasuke received in regards to punishment been backed up with "sensible reasons".

 

In regards to Naruto and Sakura, the ending, from 699 onward (693 in Sakura's case) reneged on everything their characters were and could have been. Everything that appeared in the ending was abysmal and pathetic in regards to both of them. They were a betrayal of what they had used to be. 

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

 

I'll give you the Samurai one.

 

Blaming Sasuke for the tens of thousands of deaths though? Now that's far-fetched. Particularly since he stands against the Ten Tails. Also, considering the piece of Bee was fake, it didn't do anything. This is why this part of the blame game falls apart.

 

They still weren't going to be slaves, as in direct servants. He meant himself to be an object of hate, so as to keep peace.

 

How is Naruto and Kakashi advocating for Sasuke to be freed, in part because he stopped Kaguya, awful writing? Your argument is that Sasuke was not punished enough, but two heroes of the war -advocated- for his punishment to be lessened .The circumstances that lead up to that decision make sense. It may not be enough for -you- to want him to be released, but it was enough for Naruto and Kakashi to, and with their influence, it was possible. Notable that Sasuke does not stay in society, he still has his sins to atone for, thus his journey.

 

You don't like it, and that's fine, but this in no way is awful writing, because how its done is reinforced with sensible reasons. 

 

Now, why were Sakura and Naruto utter trash to you?

Sasuke still helped in allowing the Jubi to be resurrected to begin with. It's similar to how a person who provides weapons to a criminal gang can also be found guilty of murder charges if that gang then uses those weapons to murder other people, and Sasuke knew that the capture of Bee couldn't be for anything good, but he didn't care.

And it's bad writing because it completely absolves Sasuke of any real responsibility for ANY of his actions in any sort of reasonable or believable way. There's also the problem that it's not just Sasuke's actions, but the intent behind those actions that should be considered. Sasuke didn't help stop Kaguya out of any sort of benevolent intent. He simply saw Obito, Madara, and Kaguya as more obstacles to be eliminated in order to accomplish his own agenda. And even Naruto and Kakashi being "heroes of the war"; that alone should not be enough to get Sasuke off so lightly. That would be like if any one of the major Nazi war criminals was let off with just a few months imprisonment rather than death just because General Eisenhower and Field Marshal Montgomery believed they should. Do you honestly think that ALL the other allied leaders and the citizens of the victimized countries of that war criminal would agree with them? And do you honestly think they would be quiet if they went ahead and got the lighter sentences anyway? There would be riots all over.

[VanitasDS76491]

I agree with you Nate this just goes to show you how bad a writer Kishi is and how much he loves the Uchiha over writers would never have done the BS that Kishi had done in the manga, what I do hate a lot is the BS that people use when they say oh Sasuke was in the darkness and needed to be saved.
 
Thing is Sasuke didn't want that help I mean he was not like.
 
Bucky from Winter Soldier who had been brainwashed by Hydra to do what they wanted so all the bad that he did he can't be blamed as he was not in the right stae of mind he was just a puppet, however Bucky still feels bad for all that he did I mean we have all seen Captain America Civil War at the then Hydra had control of his mind.
 
Darth Vader/Anakin Skywalker: is the same Anakindies in the end with Luke wanting to save his father and what did Anakin say in his last moments before he died. "You already have son you already have. Tell your sister you were right about me." Then he dies and is a peace.
 
Plus there is many, many more that handle this better as well then Naruto far better than Naruto who think we can just all hold hands and sing our troubles away.
 
However Nate we do have far better stories that know how to do growth I still love MGS and Gundam Seed even thou I hate that they killed Flay off she did bad yes but she was a 15 year old girl and people give her hate for being a racist which is bad but as many have said people grow and change for the better.

Again look at kingdom hearts with riku or dragon ball with piccolo and vegeta. Agreed on everything with bucky and Darth vader especially bucky that and we saw Steve and bucky's friendship in the first captain America movie and it's better than anything naruto and Sasuke had plus there's that scene near the end of civil war were bucky asks Steve if he's really worth saving after everything he's done. Now that's how you do a character like that, we never got any of that with sasuke. The Darth vader thing was good too especially with his death in jedi after beging saved by luke. Or spiderman 3 in the rami movies with Peter and Harry way better than naruto and Sasuke hell Harry even sacrificed himself to save his best friend and while spiderman 3 is a mess Harry and Peter were great in the end.
I could go on and on about metal gear solid endlessly and red dead redemption was brilliant too with John and hell gta San Andreas and 4 did tragic characters in their games with cj and Nico or hell max Payne is Rockstars most tragic character.

Edited by VanitasDS76491, 11 August 2017 - 09:15 PM.

[AHK]

Your example doesn't work.It's an immediate effect, while not even we knew what was going to be done with the Ten Tails at that time. More accurate would be someone to ask to borrow a gun, but not saying what it was for. It's stretching it for the sake of pointing blame on him for something. Besides, Bee better fits your example, even if that was not his intention, and -he- isn't responsible either. 
 
No, that is not slavery, as he expected resistance. Yes, his plan was stupid, though, but he believed in it.
 
No, it's not awful writing, because your complaint has nothing to do with writing. Naruto and Kakashi are not impartial judges, but they are influential. We have no idea how the proceedings went, only their outcome. You don't -like- that this happened, and that's fine, for -all- the reasons you stated, which support it fine. But it is not -awful- writing, because none of your reasons are based or about writing. All Kishimoto has to do with Sasuke going out free is support it with reasons, I.E., Kakashi and Naruto influenced them, and with Naruto being a hero, Sasuke's part in the end, and Kakashi being Hokage, Sasuke was let free. He did so, and thus, it is supported.
 
As for Naruto and Sakura, you haven't really given any details to support this position. Can you elaborate?

Ok. The idea that you equate Sasuke's culpability to Bee is actually laughable. Bee is in no way closer in line with my example from Sasuke. Sasuke is the one that attacked Bee to obtain that chakra to begin with, and then turned it over to Obito. Furthermore, your point about immediacy is irrelevant and asinine. Just because it didn't take place immediately does not mean that Sasuke is any less responsible. Sasuke contributed to the deaths of thousands of people. Ignorance is also not an excuse. First of all, ignorance of a law is not a proper defense in the face of the law. Sasuke contributed to the murder of thousands. One way or another, that's a fact. However, To say Sasuke didn't know is absolutely ridiculous. He knew exactly what Obito was going to do, and he knew what would happen. He didn't care. Also, in your response to HalfDemonInuasha, you mentioned him not doing it out of malice, which is a full blown lie. The entire reason Sasuke joined the Akatsuki is because of the truth about Itachi. Everything following was done out of hatred.

Yes, it is slavery. He was literally robbing people of their free will. And if they expressed their free will, he'd butcher them. That is slavery. Whether or not he believed in his plan is irrelevant.

Yes, it is awful writing, and has everything to do with awful writing. Sasuke walked free despite responsibility in killing thousands of people. He put his relationship with someone who was never actually friends ahead of the justice of thousands of people the world over. Naruto, someone who had to learn the responsibility of leadership as he watched others get slaughtered in front of him, failed and disregarded the responsibilities of leadership at the first available instance of it. The fact that he can look his friends in the eye, like Shikamaru and Ino, knowing that a man partially responsible for their murder faced zero repercussions for his actions is poor writing. The fact that he can look at his grandmother in the eye when the man that plotted her murder faced zero repercussions for his actions is poor writing.,the fact that Sasuke gets a slap on the wrist after murdering people and terrorist actions is poor writing. The fact that Kakashi and Naruto hid his real intentions from the Kage having just ushered in an era supposedly based on openness and trust is poor writing.

You're entirely twisting events and characters just to defend terrible writing lol

As for what I said about Naruto and Sakura, I was specific enough.

[Yyubie]

Wow all naruto related thread dominated by umbridge

[BlackBird19]

 

No, he didn't do it with the intention to kill thousands of people. He didn't kill thousands of people. As the Ten Tails was wielded days later, and that he stood against the Ten Tails, pointing blame on him for it is stretching it. 

 

No, he wasn't robbing people of their free will? They could sitll act and choose and had free will. This is a misunderstanding of what free will is. Sure, he was setting up a system for the world to follow, but he was not enslaving the world. 

 

No, you -cannot- say that is bad writing. 

t

Bad writing would be saying: The imagery that Kishimoto was too hammering of the point. Too much summary. The exposition isn't flowing well. The plot is jumbled.

 

Here, it's rather clear. This is -only- a detail you dislike, I.E., Sasuke was not punished enough for you. It has -nothing- to do with awful writing. 

 

There is a difference between objectivity in assessing writing quality, and subjectivity, in assessing whether you like what you are reading. This is subjectivity. It is fine. As long as you understand that it has zero to do with writing technique and craft.

 

​And no, for Naruto and Sakura you didn't, and still haven't listed -any- details. You gave a statement ,but did not give it any foundation. I.E., you said 

 

"

In regards to Naruto and Sakura, the ending, from 699 onward (693 in Sakura's case) reneged on everything their characters were and could have been. Everything that appeared in the ending was abysmal and pathetic in regards to both of them. They were a betrayal of what they had used to be."

 

But how are they a betrayal? You make a statement but do not say why or how this is. You do not say what was abysmal and pathetic in regards to both of them. You statements lack points of the manga to reference to. In other words, you were not specific at all, and laid out a poor argument. 

 

First of all, I respectfully disagree with almost every argument you've made so far. Mostly because of philosophical differences. You seem to believe that Kishimoto has not or is incapable of lying. You take everything he says at face value and consider it gospel. I'm not so trusting or unwilling to question or criticize. 

 

 Pairings were the least of my worries. Kishimoto's depiction of an orphan betrayed by his best friend being so willing to forgive him was logic I really had to overlook in the first place. Believe me, most orphans who were mistreated aren't quick to trust or forgive once betrayed. But I understood the idealized thoughts behind this depiction.

 

However to create a character who initially is portrayed as someone that believes hard work, not genius is what truly matters. That rails against destiny and fate and could care less about prominent clans. Is depicted as one of the most empathetic characters in the entire story who easily relates to others feelings and emotions. Only to end up being someone who in essence is a prodigy and later receives one power-up after another, accepts he is the son of heroes, the child of prophecy and the reincarnation of an ancient warrior and is incapable of understanding the difference between romantic love and the love of an object is just poor writing. The only way this makes sense is if you believe Kishimoto tried to write a 700 chapter paradox of Naruto's character. I highly doubt that for a mangaka.

 

These were just the issues I had with the protagonist. You can imagine how many more issues I have with the rest of the story. I'd be here typing all night. 

[Bail o' Lies]

 

First of all, I respectfully disagree with almost every argument you've made so far. Mostly because of philosophical differences. You seem to believe that Kishimoto has not or is incapable of lying. You take everything he says at face value and consider it gospel. I'm not so trusting or unwilling to question or criticize. 

 

 Pairings were the least of my worries. Kishimoto's depiction of an orphan betrayed by his best friend being so willing to forgive him was logic I really had to overlook in the first place. Believe me, most orphans who were mistreated aren't quick to trust or forgive once betrayed. But I understood the idealized thoughts behind this depiction.

 

However to create a character who initially is portrayed as someone that believes hard work, not genius is what truly matters. That rails against destiny and fate and could care less about prominent clans. Is depicted as one of the most empathetic characters in the entire story who easily relates to others feelings and emotions. Only to end up being someone who in essence is a prodigy and later receives one power-up after another, accepts he is the son of heroes, the child of prophecy and the reincarnation of an ancient warrior and is incapable of understanding the difference between romantic love and the love of an object is just poor writing. The only way this makes sense is if you believe Kishimoto tried to write a 700 chapter paradox of Naruto's character. I highly doubt that for a mangaka.

 

These were just the issues I had with the protagonist. You can imagine how many more issues I have with the rest of the story. I'd be here typing all night. 

It says something when the most common word to describe someone in sequel is a "genius" of some sort.

 

Also the first image ones sees in both the anime and the manga is the main character in the future fighting over the faith of the world.

Edited by Bail o' Lies, 12 August 2017 - 08:22 AM.

[LuckyChi7]

So I was going through databook 3 cause it was just sitting around, that and I didn't realize that I still had it since the only other Naruto thing I have is Road to Ninja.  Boruto was there at one point no thanks to my best friend, but I sold it to someone for $20 bucks since they were "really desperate on wanting it that badly."

 

 

That being said,  here's the point I was getting toward:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That is legit proof from the databooks themselves for Part 2

 

 

• When she was younger, the one Sakura yearned for then loved, was Sasuke. Naruto was merely a nuisance, the loser who always came between her and Sasuke. But as she goes over the various missions in the past, and Sakura comes to a realization. When times were hard, when she wanted to give up on life, it was always that nuisance, Naruto, who protected and encouraged her. How does she feel about Naruto? Sakura still has not found the answer."

• "She feels spontaneous admiration for Naruto and for some reason, she's blushing."

 

 

Key words then loved meaning what? past love was who? Sasuke. Once again according to the databook. 

 

 

 

Sorry Kishi as someone who has been writing his own story for the last 3 years I call massive contradiction. That's something even you can't erase from existence cause that was already established.

Edited by LuckyChi7, 12 August 2017 - 02:22 PM.

[lupina]

This mysterious feeling Sakura had for Naruto was never adressed. Never.

It was just pushed aside to make room for Hinata.

[Qia]

This mysterious feeling Sakura had for Naruto was never adressed. Never.
It was just pushed aside to make room for Hinata.

Unless you assume she was telling the truth during her confession...except of course for the part where she says she's over Sasuke. I mean Kishimoto even said that he wanted to depict an honest but stubborn girl with the confession rather than a girl who would just use her friend's feelings. if it was a complete lie then it kind of fails. Anyway....I already argued about this when the scene first came out and I don't really want to again.

 

Additionally, even though the scene could be considered another red herring, what Yamato was about to say to Sakura on the bridge was never revealed....so even if the data books weren't written by Kishimoto himself it's implied that Sakura feels something towards naruto. However, it was never revealed what that feeling was since

1.Naruto never got to actually confess to Sakura

2. Sakura's confession was never taken up again by the two after. So *shrugs*

Edited by Qia, 12 August 2017 - 05:37 PM.

[ThroughWithLove]

That isn't part of the manga story, as it is in the Data Books.
 
The Data Books themselves here are just teasing

The second statement sounds like speculation. As long as you understand this, it's fine.

Also, the Data Books are signed off and approved by Kishimoto. Any notion that they are essence fan fiction is false and misleading.

Edited by ThroughWithLove, 12 August 2017 - 06:43 PM.

[lupina]

 

That isn't part of the manga story, as it is in the Data Books.

 

 

This is not true.

I can recall at least one scene in part one and two where they are mentioned.

[Qia]

 

1: Because his crush faded and it was resolved in that way.

2: Because it was revealed and understood that Sakura loved Sasuke, and did not love Naruto. 

 

 

 

No notion was put forward that the Data books are fanfiction, but with the ending as it is, my speculation is not speculation. 

 

 

Same as the above points, really, all of this is really handled in the Fake Confession. 

1. His crush was still there up to the point where Sai was a part of the team. There was also no point exactly where it was shown that it faded after this. So, at the end of the day, Naruto never got the guts to tell Sakura how he felt. 

2. You completely missed the point I was trying to make here. If Sakura had really lied to Naruto, something that he noticed and was greatly upset about, he never even tried to talk to her about why she suddenly changed her mind about wanting Sasuke to be saved. Sai just tells Naruto it's partly his fault, sure. But after she was almost killed by him in her attempt at confronting Sasuke, NS just go back to interacting as if nothing happened. It's almost as if Sakura wasn't told that her best friend really loved her -.-. There was no clear confrontation about it in order for her to rightfully reject him. And then the next time it's brought up it's made to seem as if Sakura knew he only loved her because of Sasuke, which, if true, makes Naruto look kind of scumbaggish. 

[lupina]

 

1: Because his crush faded and it was resolved in that way.

 

When? How?

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

 

No, he didn't do it with the intention to kill thousands of people. He didn't kill thousands of people. As the Ten Tails was wielded days later, and that he stood against the Ten Tails, pointing blame on him for it is stretching it. 

 

No, he wasn't robbing people of their free will? They could sitll act and choose and had free will. This is a misunderstanding of what free will is. Sure, he was setting up a system for the world to follow, but he was not enslaving the world. 

 

No, you -cannot- say that is bad writing. 

t

Bad writing would be saying: The imagery that Kishimoto was too hammering of the point. Too much summary. The exposition isn't flowing well. The plot is jumbled.

 

Here, it's rather clear. This is -only- a detail you dislike, I.E., Sasuke was not punished enough for you. It has -nothing- to do with awful writing. 

 

There is a difference between objectivity in assessing writing quality, and subjectivity, in assessing whether you like what you are reading. This is subjectivity. It is fine. As long as you understand that it has zero to do with writing technique and craft.

 

​And no, for Naruto and Sakura you didn't, and still haven't listed -any- details. You gave a statement ,but did not give it any foundation. I.E., you said 

 

"

In regards to Naruto and Sakura, the ending, from 699 onward (693 in Sakura's case) reneged on everything their characters were and could have been. Everything that appeared in the ending was abysmal and pathetic in regards to both of them. They were a betrayal of what they had used to be."

 

But how are they a betrayal? You make a statement but do not say why or how this is. You do not say what was abysmal and pathetic in regards to both of them. You statements lack points of the manga to reference to. In other words, you were not specific at all, and laid out a poor argument. 

 

1.) At the very least, it's depraved indifference, which amounts to murder. Sasuke knew Obito had no good intention with wanting Gyuki's chakra, but didn't care. He just wanted to get it done with so he could continue with his own agenda and because of Sasuke's depraved indifference with his actions, many shinobi end up dead. As mentioned, ignorance is not a defense, and just because Sasuke didn't do the killing physically with his own hands does not mean he is not responsible.

By your logic, a bomb maker can make a bomb and sell it to an unknown group, and then if that bomb is used days, or even weeks later to murder dozens, if not hundreds of innocent people, the bomb maker can't then be held responsible for their deaths because he didn't blow up the bomb himself nor did he know specifically what the bomb was for, and even because the bomb wasn't used immediately. That kind of defense would never fly.


2.) Slaves can have free will, but if they ever try to act on that free will that the "master" doesn't like, they will be punished until they no longer try to act on that free will in that way.

 

 

Only to end up being someone who in essence is a prodigy: How so? Generally Naruto had to work hard to get all of his power ups ,save one time. He also had -no- idea if his plans were work. He was never very wise or intelligent.

 

Being a son of a hero, by the way, has nothing to do with bad writing, that's background adding.

 

Same for a reincarnation of an ancient warrior.

 

Now brother to Sasuke through reincarnation? You could call that detail contrived and unnecessary, make a case of it needing to be omitted.

 

and is incapable of understanding the difference between romantic love and the love of an object is just poor writing. How so? Because again, this detail actual exists and happens to people. 

 

If you make an argument of "poor writing", you need to address why the crafted skill employed in question did not work. 

 

The execution for example of Sasuke and Naruto as reincarnated brothers is an additional background detail introduced so late, layered on to give background detail to the Sage of Six Path's story.  It makes sense and works on the surface but raises questions too, since it comes out of nowhere, and doesn't make much sense, since these are the only ones reincarnated. It's a whole new element added in that just reinforces what we already know, and could have been omitted, and been better omitted, because now they are literal brothers, which tries to give explanation to Naruto's closeness and such, but it doesn't, because... that wasn't thoroughly shown, more informed. More of these details unfold later, but those details operate fine without this contrived addition. This crafting aspect is in character background, typically such isn't weaved in so late.

 

Feel free to address the rest of the story. All of that said, your case doesn't make a foundation of poor writing, but it does make a foundation for a reason to dislike the writing. See the difference? 

1.) The fact that, compared to people (sometimes geniuses themselves) who took years of their own hard work to get to where they were (Minato with the Rasengan, Jiraiya with Sage Mode, or Bee with Gyuki's chakra), Naruto is magically able to get much further than they did in ridiculously less time; barely a month, if not a couple weeks, even when he cuts off training early like he did with both Sage training and Kurama chakra training with Bee in order to run off and play hero. He (and Sasuke) were also literally handed their final power-ups on a silver platter by Hagaromo's chakra ghost. Even Lee hasn't been demonstrated to have come as far as Gai after years of endless hours of physically taxing hard work, and we were at least shown periodically Sakura's training with Tsunade and the results of that training, so her being said to be better than Tsunade is truly believable.


2.) Did you just ignore the reasons stated? It's bad writing because...

A.) Naruto was hailed as a "no-name orphan" with "nothing special" about him outside of being a Jinchuriki (which was FAR more a curse).

B.) Naruto was someone who didn't believe in destiny or fate, and would do everything in his power to fight against it.

By the end, Naruto has some sort of relation (direct or indirect) with virtually every major Konoha-connected hero in shinobi history all the way back to Hagoromo himself, making him one of, if not THE most "special" person there is, and, is not only declared a "Child of Prophecy" (thus is FATED to either destroy the world or save it), but because of being the latest vessel for Ashura's chakra, is forced into the "cycle of hatred" and "destined" to fight against Sasuke, the vessel of Indra's chakra, as was done for every single vessel throughout history and Naruto does nothing to try to change it. He goes along and fights Sasuke either way, just as he was "destined" to.


3.) The romantic part is poor writing because, again, it was shown many times before that that is NOT how Naruto was. His character was completely changed around to fit the new narrative with no development leading to it.

4.) The problem here is that you're not proving why you think it's "good writing". All you're doing is quoting people who mention it as bad writing and then essentially saying, "Nuh-uh! You're wrong!" How about showing us how it's "good writing". Actually provide panel shots and detailed explanation for why it's "good writing". Actually prove your positive instead of trying to disprove everyone else's negative.

Edited by HalfDemonInuyasha, 12 August 2017 - 08:39 PM.

[lupina]

 

Same as the above points, really, all of this is really handled in the Fake Confession.

 

No, not at all.

[ThroughWithLove]

 
No notion was put forward that the Data books are fanfiction, but with the ending as it is, my speculation is not speculation. 

If no notion was put forward that the databooks are basically fanfiction, then saying they weren't written by Kishi is irrelevant and has no bearing on this conversation.

And yes, these suggestions that the databooks were created and submitted for the purpose of teasing is speculation as you have no idea what the databooks were created for outside of supplementing the manga.

Edited by ThroughWithLove, 12 August 2017 - 08:52 PM.

[TouKen4Life3g]

What a mess...

[gamma]

 

That isn't part of the manga story, as it is in the Data Books.

 

The Data Books themselves here are just teasing, and they're not written by Kishim.

 

Hence, they're teasing a Red Herring, more or less. 

 

LOL WHAT>>>

 

FAM. DO U KNOW WHAT DATA MEANS???  LEMME HELP A SISTER OUT:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

THEY MUST HAVE BEEN COMPLETE STRATEGIC kitten IF THEY WENT SO FAR BACK TO BAIT US LIKE THAT. I'M JUST SAYING.

Edited by lux, 12 August 2017 - 10:17 PM.