3406 replies to this topic

[Chucky-kun]

I am like Superman. I know when I am needed.

Kidding of course.



If it is then I guess Kakashi x Naruto is canon now too.

Not to mention the entire Fairy Tail guild.



@Canadian DJ
lol i see.

[Canadian_DJ]

I am like Superman. I know when I am needed.

Kidding of course.

No but seriously, when you said you were gonna leave this site i was like "No way man!!!" but thank god you changed your mind, or you were bluffing lol.But seriously i LUV yoir posts

[James S Cassidy]

Amazing James! You're posts are absolutely frickin awesome. I'm shocked my one paragraph could cause you to brainstorm something like this.

Thank you and yes, your post did inspire all of that. So, it was all you. I just helped.

I'm surprised that you consider Naruto's feelings for Sakura a bit more selfish than her feelings for him. I've always thought Naruto and Sakura were equally selfess with each other.

I actually don't. I am more in agreeing with you on Naruto and Sakura being equally selfish. The point I was really trying to make is that why is being selfish a bad thing? Everyone is selfish from time to time. Everyone has wants and needs in life, but being overly selfish and not thinking about how much you affect others lives is what is truly bad. Being selfish about what makes you happy is not a bad thing. Putting that above everything else is, especially in moments when you need to be selfless.

As we said, Hinata is ten times more selfish than Naruto and Sakura combined. If we can accept that, then people should accept Naruto being selfish just once.

And you know what's the most upsetting thing for me? Despite Naruto's genuine love for her, he isn't fully acknowledging all the lengths Sakura goes for him. Especially in the Kage Summit. Or how she wants to help him as much as possible and be by his side. How insecure she feels that she doesn't do enough for him and doesn't deserve him. Naruto has not fully realized any of this. But Hinata? He gives her so much credit and acknowledgement in one chapter (615). It's not like Hinata doesn't deserve some of it. Just not to such a heavy extent. But Sakura? He ironically has not acknowledged her enough despite him constantly trying to shield and protect her (mainly emotionally, also physically).

I know, it upsets me too, but as I said this is all to create drama. I don't blame Naruto on this, I blame Kishimoto with forcing Hinata development in the chapter. I blame the blatant ripping on characters and forcing every one of them to be pushed down so Hinata could look better and I think hurts a little more

How pathetic is that for Hinata? You can't raise her bar so you lower everyone else's to give the illusion that hers has raised. Sad. Truly sad for this character.

No but seriously, when you said you were gonna leave this site i was like "No way man!!!" but thank god you changed your mind, or you were bluffing lol.But seriously i LUV yoir posts

Thank you

I was going to leave for a while, but thanks to the constant nagging from some NS friends they made me come back and making me feel bad. lol So you can thank them.

"They need you on the site. You're one of the last few members to actually give a hoot."

I don't know about that, but they wanted me back, so I did.

Edited by James S Cassidy, 04 January 2013 - 11:33 AM.

[Chucky-kun]

And you know what's the most upsetting thing for me? Despite Naruto's genuine love for her, he isn't fully acknowledging all the lengths Sakura goes for him. Especially in the Kage Summit. Or how she wants to help him as much as possible and be by his side. How insecure she feels that she doesn't do enough for him and doesn't deserve him. Naruto has not fully realized any of this. But Hinata? He gives her so much credit and acknowledgement in one chapter (615). It's not like Hinata doesn't deserve some of it. Just not to such a heavy extent. But Sakura? He ironically has not acknowledged her enough despite him constantly trying to shield and protect her (mainly emotionally, also physically).

Naruto is inspired from Goku.
I repeat
Goku
No.1 Oblivious to Romance.

[AzureWaters]

Exactly, thats why he said it would ruin his character if it happened, I personally know it wont happen, sure I believe he would be sad but naruto generally puts sakuras feelings above his own and if she were to choose to be with sasuke there is no doubt in my mind he would allow it.

And as Don-Kun said we have seen naruto be sad when he sees sakura showing affection to sasuke so there is no doubt in my mind he would be sad about her ending with him but he would choose to let it be that way whether he likes it or not because as you said luffy, naruto is selfless.

If Kishi plans on developing Naruto/Hinata here, it sort of ruins that argument. In this case, his feelings would be resolved before Sakura has a chance to 'choose' between him and Sasuke.

[Chucky-kun]

If Kishi plans on developing Naruto/Hinata here, it sort of ruins that argument. In this case, his feelings would be resolved before Sakura has a chance to 'choose' between him and Sasuke.

If by "resolved" you mean him getting over Sakura off panel and making this a crappy plot, then sure.

[Chatte]

I had to come back because someone begged me to.



Here is thing, who isn't selfish in this manga? If we want to play this game of who is selfish and who isn't, then let's look at everything and I am quoting you RomanG because you bring up a good point.

Hinata is selfish because she is constantly trying to push herself into Naruto's life. Yeah, she can do selfless things, but her intentions are completely the same since part 1. "Got to be better for Naruto. Got to fight for Naruto. Got to die for Naruto." She is probably the most selfish out of any other character and even now she remains it. Hinata, if you truly love Naruto let him go. You know the old saying "If you love something, set it free. If it comes back it was meant to be."

Naruto...is he selfish? Most of the time no, but let's say Luffy is right. Let's say Naruto was selfish in the instances that were pointed. Doesn't Naruto deserve to be little selfish for once? All he ever does is fight for other people and do things to keep others happy. I think he deserves to be selfish for once because he is tearing himself apart by not being selfish from time to time. I don't believe he is as selfish as some have claimed here, but he does love Sakura. He does want her. If Hinata wanting him is not selfish, then Naruto is not selfish for wanting Sakura.

Now here is where someone will say that we are not talking about Hinata here and here is where I say then what are you comparing? If you truly want to see how selfish someone really is then you have to compare that to someone else who is selfish. Comparing Naruto to Obito is like comparing two opposites of the same coin. It might be the same, but it is too opposite. Instead, I chose Hinata because she is trying to be like Naruto. She wants to follow his example, but she lacks the ability to give up what she wants for the person they care about which is one of Naruto's biggest traits. Sometimes it is even too much because look at how he has handled this war.

Here is something. Sakura is the most selfless character out of the three of them. Think about it. Around the time of her confession she was willing to give up two things. The two most important things in her life, Naruto and Sasuke. She was willing to risk it all for Naruto's sake. She was willing to risk her own life even for Naruto's sake. Willing risk him hating her. Is Hinata willing to do this? Did she jump at the chance to help? Not at all. Can't say she didn't know about it. I mean she had to know right? For someone Hinata loves so dearly, I would think she would want to know everything about him, but she doesn't.

Sakura also has not tried to push herself into Naruto's life. She doesn't have to, she is already there. One could argue she did this once in the confession and maybe I would agree, but it was one time. Hinata has done it a lot more times and people like her for it. Sakura hasn't tried to bring up Romance in the middle of the battlefield because there is more important things to worry about. If Naruto's feelings for Sakura got out, Obito would use it to is advantage. Sakura hasn't thought about romance from either point of view. Not even the so called "romantic Sasuke thought." She thought negative about it.

Let's be honest, how can Sakura still love Sasuke? At best she is reevaluating what she once thought. She is rethinking her own image of Sasuke after seeing what he really was. A monster. How can any girl still love someone who tries to kill her. I give Sakura more credit than that. I don't think she is that stupid. She is isn't still fantasizing about Sasuke like Hinata does Naruto. She isn't proclaiming that she is going to be with Sasuke in the end. In fact she said the opposite. She says she is going to be together with Naruto and she said this BEFORE she included with everyone else in the statement. "This time we're going to be together." People want to brush this off and only look at what she said afterwords. This is fact. If you want to ignore/deny it be my guest, but it is there.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

The confession:

Everyone wants to use this against NS, but we have several things that Sakura said that make it so she is not a liar. 1. She said she didn't want to make any mistakes. Lying is a pretty big one. 2. She said she KNEW what Naruto's answer was going to be, yet she did it anyway...Why? I smell miss-direction. I think she wanted people to think she was lying and wanted Naruto to hate her because if she killed Sasuke then she wouldn't need to feel the sting of betraying Naruto. She wanted him to hate her now because she was going to do something horrible and she felt she didn't deserve his love. She felt that she didn't deserve Naruto to love her especially when she was going to kill the one thing that tied them together.

I know what she was thinking. She wanted to distance herself not for her sake, but for Naruto's. She wanted Naruto to be happy and stop suffering. She is not stupid. Instead she just wanted to make things easier on him. She felt it would have been better if Sasuke was dead and she distanced herself because she felt like she was so selfish. That's a heroine moment if I have ever seen one. She was willing to give up her happiness for his. Does this mean SS is canon? No. In fact, the opposite. It means that NS is a lot more stronger than NH and SS combined simply because Sakura was willing to forgo her own well being. People said the same thing about Hinata during the Pein Confession and I say it is the same here. Just she was willing to give up more than her life.

Naruto however proved her wrong and that Naruto's feelings for her were not a product of POAL or something, but the opposite. That's why Kakashi said a big burden was lifted off Naruto. He doesn't need to fight for Sakura's affection anymore. He got it. Now all he needs to do is save his friend. Some will say the burden was the POAL. Yeah, but what was the purpose of the POAL? To gain Sakura's affection and to bring his friend back. Now he just has to focus on one thing.

The biggest issue now is the speeches that people have given. What I call the "He said, she said" schtick and some of you are playing a double standard. "Sai said that Sakura still loves Sasuke," but he also said Naruto loves Sakura. So when he says Naruto loves Sakura he is lying, but when he says "Sakura loves Sasuke" he is telling the truth? Which is it? Then we got Naruto who tells Sakura he can't stand liars, which people say Naruto is calling Sakura a liar so she must be lying. So it must be true. Okay, but Naruto told Sai that he still loves Sakura. Is that true? To some Naruto is just being stupid and that "he really loved Hinata." What if he was being stupid about accusing Sakura lying as well? He lied to the Bridge Builder that there was no love triangle, yet tells Sai he still loves Sakura.

So who is right? And in all of this does Hinata play a part? Not one bit. She doesn't even get mentioned nor cross Naruto's mind and this was all AFTER her confession. Strange huh? Not as strange to me given how Naruto loves Sakura.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"People change or do they?"

Another major topic I see is whether or not the characters have changed their "sights" of one another. The answer is, only one has changed their view. Can you guess who that is?

One of the arguments I see is that Naruto could change his feelings to Hinata. While this could happen, has it really? Can anyone definitively say with NO bias that Naruto has changed his feelings to Hinata? (So far all my non-shipping fan friends say they don't see Naruto changing his feelings) I can't find one instance in this manga to support it. I can't find one where he thought just about Hinata or thought about her more than just a friend. Even in 615.

With that being said, what about Hinata? Could Hinata change her feelings for someone else? It is possible, but has she? No, she hasn't. She hasn't changed since part 1. The only thing different is she has become more assertive. BTW, who ever did that thing about the romantic handhold was brilliant. I never noticed that Naruto is holding Hinata's hand palm to back of hand. If it was suppose to be romantic, why not make it palm to palm with fingers intertwined. In fact, I would even go as far to say that Hinata isn't even trying to hold his hand. She is just limp. Very similar to how Kurama-Naruto held Kakashi's hand to toss and transfer chakra.

I think Hinata is trying to be romantic, but Naruto's isn't. Which is how past events unfolded.

Anyway, sidetracked. Likewise, Sakura...couldn't Sakura change her feelings as well? Couldn't she also feel something different? People want to assume that only Naruto can change his opinion, but never want to think anyone else can change.

I want to add: If no one changes their view, then no couple is canon.

I want to ask this, what if NS happened in Part 1? If NS became canon in part one, then there would be no POAL, most of the drama in the entire manga would be cut-out and the whole time would just be Dragonball Z-type fighting. (Villain comes, Hero beats him, over.) The drama is there to give moments like these. The drama is there so we can have threads like these and I think Kishi knows this. I don't always agree on the way he executes such drama, but I know why he does it. People call it bias, I call it being realistic. How many other manga follow this same exact type of pattern? Tons. Tons and tons of it with love triangles.

Tokyo Mew Mew did it with Ryu and Ichigo and Masaya. Who did she end up with in the end? Masaya, her first love choice. It has happened in Rurouni Kenshin. It has happened in Outlaw Star (A true fan will know what I am talking about.) It has happened in Love Hina. It is happening now in HOTD, though the outcome is still undetermined. Happened in reverse in Fruits Basket. Baka and Test almost has an exact replica of this with the two girls, one tsundere and the other shy, going after his affection. With the tsundere being unable to express her real emotions and who I might add is more violent towards him that Sakura is to Naruto.

This is not a new practice.

I want to emphasis this again. I was once a NH fan because I thought it was cute how she was as a child, but when I saw the relationship between Naruto and Sakura, when I saw how similar they both are and how comical they both were with each other I knew they were going to get together. That's why I changed. Hinata would be with Naruto in a heartbeat without knowing who is he really is and how he behaves. All she knows is his Nindo, but nothing else. She just doesn't know because she hasn't tried to get to know him as a person. Sakura has the advantage because she saw Naruto at his worst and she liked him then. She just didn't want to admit it because she wanted to be popular. It's like High School with the girl who wants to be popular. After a while, they realize that is not what life is about. Sakura even spent time with Naruto on a regular day without the wars, violence, and missions and look how it went. She wanted to help him and feed him, but to comical relief Sai beat her to it. Was Hinata there? No. Did Naruto think of Hinata? No.

Sakura and Hinata did have one thing in common. Hinata is in love with the idea of Naruto as Sakura was in love with the idea of Sasuke. The playing field has changed and while I believe Hinata has not changed her "idea" of Naruto, Sakura has changed her "idea" of Sasuke. She has realized that he is not everything her original idea was. She is realizing that Sasuke is not the idea man she made him out to be, but the idea man she thought of was in Naruto this whole time. A "Great guy."

Is Sasuke a "Great guy?" I think the answer is obvious.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Bolded: Funny how that argument is a double edged sword: "Naruto loved Sakura no matter what since the beginning so it must be true love."

You are soooo right!
And also, I was previously a NH/SS shipper and that was one of the major reasons I turned NS.

[James S Cassidy]

You are soooo right!
And also, I was previously a NH/SS shipper and that was one of the major reasons I turned NS.

Thanks, but you should really thank xxRomanceGirlxx. It was her idea after all. I just expanded it.

[Chatte]

Thanks, but you should really thank xxRomanceGirlxx. It was her idea after all. I just expanded it.

Then I guess I should thank both of you.

[AzureWaters]

If by "resolved" you mean him getting over Sakura off panel and making this a crappy plot, then sure.

Pretty much.

Well it would make it a crappy sub-plot, because whoever Naruto gets with won't have a huge effect on the story or his character really. The usual conclusion with Main * Main will not happen, but in general this doesn't show anything besides Kishimoto not wanting to follow the usual formula that's prevalent in these types of stories.

Regarding pairing confirmation it would be rushed and poorly formed but in the case of his love life the "never giving up" motto doesn't apply. If NaruHina somehow gets resolved in the course of this Juubi fight, in regards to Sakura it would just look like Naruto's moved on. Not really given up on her because Sakura herself has not come to a resolution with Sasuke.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

And yet another hilarious post about Naruto being all sad and depressed because he didn't get with Sakura. Seriously, stop using that argument. His character will get ruined because of it? LOL.

Hospital scene part 1.
POAL part 1 are you not mentioning that he will not get hurt right?

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 04 January 2013 - 12:08 PM.

[James S Cassidy]

Hospital scene part 1.

Add, feeding scene.

[Chucky-kun]

Hospital scene part 1.

If he considers chapter 459 "years ago" I'm not sure what he'll make of the hospital scene. Lol.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

If he considers chapter 459 "years ago" I'm not sure what he'll make of the hospital scene. Lol.

459 to 615 it's a matter of months (1 or 2)

this would be ridiculous if Obito spend years ago to raise an army and Naruto training with bee would be stupid.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 04 January 2013 - 12:12 PM.

[James S Cassidy]

If he considers chapter 459 "years ago" I'm not sure what he'll make of the hospital scene. Lol.

Hinata's confession and Sakura's confession happened "Years ago," yet people still count it.

[xxRomanceGirlxx]

I know, it upsets me too, but as I said this is all to create drama. I don't blame Naruto on this, I blame Kishimoto with forcing Hinata development in the chapter. I blame the blatant ripping on characters and forcing every one of them to be pushed down so Hinata could look better and I think hurts a little more

How pathetic is that for Hinata? You can't raise her bar so you lower everyone else's to give the illusion that hers has raised. Sad. Truly sad for this character.

Your thoughts are still amazing. I would never be able to think of all of that in a short amount of time. XD

615 ... just very badly written chapter. I could write a whole essay about how badly done it is, not just in shipping (But you already did that earlier after the chapter's release so I don't have to. ) Kishimoto did force her. I wish a thousand times her development was better planned than that nightmare. But apparently, her character is so bland and underdeveloped he has to make everyone around her look bad so she could look good or "heroine-like". It is sad. If some of the NH fans actually cared about the plot more than their ship getting a moment, they'd be able to see it too.

I wonder ... does Naruto underestimate Sakura too much? I dunno ... I sometimes get that impression. Like the Kage Summit Arc for example. He never expected Sakura to go all out on this plan to kill Sasuke because "she loves him too much". And his flashbacks clearly showed that all of this evidence for this claim were in mostly in Part 1. I just get the feeling that besides not fully acknowledging all she has done for him and is willing to sacrifice for, he still has this mentality of "Sakura hopelessly in love with Sasuke. She's just as in love with him as before." But not only that, I also feel like he never let go of his urge that he has to constantly shelter "poor, sensitive Sakura-chan" from everything because it would be too much for her. As sweet as his protectiveness of her is, doesn't that also fall into the "not fully acknowledging her" catergory? Am I badly off-base with this? 'Cause I honestly wouldn't be surpised. xD

Chucky-kun, your post sums up exactly why it's like this regarding Naruto. Lovable, dense, idiot Goku ... I love him just as much as Naruto.

EDIT: Oh, talk you James and Chatte! You're both very nice and respectful members of this forum like many of us here.

Edited by xxRomanceGirlxx, 04 January 2013 - 12:20 PM.

[Chatte]

EDIT: Oh, talk you James and Chatte! You're both very nice and respectful members of this forum like many of us here.

Oh, thank you dear!
I can sometimes be a little bit dramatic, in a bad mood or stuff like that, however, I like to respect people around me.

[James S Cassidy]

Your thoughts are still amazing. I would never be able to think of all of that in a short amount of time. XD

Thank you.

I wonder ... does Naruto underestimate Sakura too much? I dunno ... I sometimes get that impression. Like the Kage Summit Arc for example. He never expected Sakura to go all out on this plan to kill Sasuke because "she loves him too much". And his flashbacks clearly showed that all of this evidence for this claim were in mostly in Part 1. I just get the feeling that besides not fully acknowledging all she has done for him and is willing to sacrifice for, he still has this mentality of "Sakura hopelessly in love with Sasuke. She's just as in love with him as before." But not only that, I also feel like he never let go of his urge that he has to constantly shelter "poor, sensitive Sakura-chan" from everything because it would be too much for her. As sweet as his protectiveness of her is, doesn't that also fall into the "not fully acknowledging her" catergory? Am I badly off-base with this? 'Cause I honestly wouldn't be surpised. xD

If I were to venture a guess I would say it will be under the same reason. It is all forced. We all agree that most relationships in manga do not conclude until the end. If Naruto were to think any differently about Sakura, they would be canon already. He can't do that so he makes Naruto "stupid" to it because it prolongs the story till the end. Look at others, wasn't Naru the same way with Keitaro? She denied her feelings too and a couple of times she thought he was in love with Mitsume. I see this as something similar and Naru and Keitaro didn't truly get together till the last two volumes.

You are right, but I believe the reasoning is different. I believe like with everything else it is a stalling factor. Just like with Sasuke going on this trip with Orochimaru. It's not needed to further Sasuke, but it is needed to stall the plot.

I don't think the urge of sheltering "poor, sensitive Sakura" is there. Instead it is more like "This is all my burden. No one else's" cause he gives off the same idealism about the war. "They are after me, only I should fight." I believe the true test is the Sasuke vs Naruto fight. What other purpose does it make? "So Naruto can bring Sasuke back," but we already know he is going to succeed, so boring. Sakura will prove her love when she chooses Naruto over Sasuke? Not THAT is interesting. That makes me want to see the fight. If that is not going to happen, then I have no reason to watch the final fight at all.

Yes, this could have been proven during the Sakura confession arc, but again Kishi is pushing the stalling to put other matters first.

EDIT: Oh, talk you James and Chatte! You're both very nice and respectful members of this forum like many of us here.

*smiles*

Edited by James S Cassidy, 04 January 2013 - 12:43 PM.

[Chucky-kun]

Thank you.



If I were to venture a guess I would say it will be under the same reason. It is all forced. We all agree that most relationships in manga do not conclude until the end. If Naruto were to think any differently about Sakura, they would be canon already. He can't do that so he makes Naruto "stupid" to it because it prolongs the story till the end. Look at others, wasn't Naru the same way with Keitaro? She denied her feelings too and a couple of times she thought he was in love with Mitsume. I see this as something similar and Naru and Keitaro didn't truly get together till the last two volumes.

You are right, but I believe the reasoning is different. I believe like with everything else it is a stalling factor. Just like with Sasuke going on this trip with Orochimaru. It's not needed to further Sasuke, but it is needed to stall the plot.

I don't think the urge of sheltering "poor, sensitive Sakura" is there. Instead it is more like "This is all my burden. No one else's" cause he gives off the same idealism about the war. "They are after me, only I should fight." I believe the true test is the Sasuke vs Naruto fight. What other purpose does it make? "So Naruto can bring Sasuke back," but we already know he is going to succeed, so boring. Sakura will prove her love when she chooses Naruto over Sasuke? Not THAT is interesting. That makes me want to see the fight. If that is not going to happen, then I have no reason to watch the final fight at all.

Yes, this could have been proven during the Sakura confession arc, but again Kishi is pushing the stalling to put other matters first.



*smiles*

The truth of the matter is also that the NH fan base has grown to be a major part of the readers of naruto and kishi wants them reading til the very end.

[Canadian_DJ]

Thank you and yes, your post did inspire all of that. So, it was all you. I just helped.



I actually don't. I am more in agreeing with you on Naruto and Sakura being equally selfish. The point I was really trying to make is that why is being selfish a bad thing? Everyone is selfish from time to time. Everyone has wants and needs in life, but being overly selfish and not thinking about how much you affect others lives is what is truly bad. Being selfish about what makes you happy is not a bad thing. Putting that above everything else is, especially in moments when you need to be selfless.

As we said, Hinata is ten times more selfish than Naruto and Sakura combined. If we can accept that, then people should accept Naruto being selfish just once.



I know, it upsets me too, but as I said this is all to create drama. I don't blame Naruto on this, I blame Kishimoto with forcing Hinata development in the chapter. I blame the blatant ripping on characters and forcing every one of them to be pushed down so Hinata could look better and I think hurts a little more

How pathetic is that for Hinata? You can't raise her bar so you lower everyone else's to give the illusion that hers has raised. Sad. Truly sad for this character.



Thank you

I was going to leave for a while, but thanks to the constant nagging from some NS friends they made me come back and making me feel bad. lol So you can thank them.

"They need you on the site. You're one of the last few members to actually give a hoot."

I don't know about that, but they wanted me back, so I did.

Really you were seriously gonna leave? wow close one...man back in my lurker days i used to love reading your posts and i really looked up you, you were one of the few that motivated me.

Hey you betta count me as one of the people who wanted you back! Im just so busy with my studies, hardly had time to actually persuay you in staying.Bu luckily you are.