3406 replies to this topic

[Greed-Sama]

My point isn't that he doesn't have great point because all the thing he talk about I went over them many times, the problem relies here, narusaku.com this is a forum for people who loves NaruSaku and want to talk about them becoming a pairing not why they should not be a pairing, if I do pay him any attention and try to go against his negative view, I'm pretty confidence that I still present him NS in a positive way, but what answer I will surely get from him, logic does not count, you're in denial or I don't understand this fandom plus his major problem is that he constantly insults the fandom. Maybe you haven't seeing it here but I seeing it before, he has a negative opinion about Sakura and he doesn't give a s**t about NS.

While he makes good point not every user here like to be reminded about NS downside of the pairing because there are also good stuff about them we try to balance with the negative and try to look on thing a brighter way, but this guy focus you should give up NS will not happen, honestly I don't think this is the right place for that kind of mentality, your opinion is your opinion, you don't need to stress yourself trying to force other to see things the way he does, every fan is biased in some way and that is not excluding him.
The absolute truth will only be known when the Manga is over, in the mean time let others believe what the want to believe, you are no one to be throwing their arguments back at them.

Someone who can't take the downside of their pairing really has no room to be debating on a forum. Because this place is open to all pairings and to all points of view, he has every right to criticize without bashing. I don't care if he likes or dislikes NS. It doesn't mean I value or disvalue his opinion.

And this is a forum for people who like other things too. I joined here two years ago when I loved NS. Now I could care less on what happens with it. I read the story for other reasons, and I do other things that don't include Naruto at all. Because my love for NS has diminished thanks to Kishimoto, does that mean I shouldn't offer criticism to the fact that NS momentum has hit a gigantic brick wall?

It's the truth. I have hope that Naruto and Sakura will make it in the end, but realism also has to play a role in this debate.

Edited by Greed-Sama, 04 January 2013 - 07:44 AM.

[Chucky-kun]

My point isn't that he doesn't have great point because all the thing he talk about I went over them many times, the problem relies here, narusaku.com this is a forum for people who loves NaruSaku and want to talk about them becoming a pairing not why they should not be a pairing, if I do pay him any attention and try to go against his negative view, I'm pretty confidence that I still present him NS in a positive way, but what answer will I surely get from him, logic does not count, you're in denial or I don't understand this fandom plus his major problem is that he constantly insults the fandom. Maybe you haven't seeing it here but I seeing it before, he has a negative opinion about Sakura and he doesn't give a s**t about NS.

While he makes good point not even if he ignore positive stuff or hints, not every user here like to be reminded about NS downside because there are also good stuff about them we try to balance with the negative and try to look on thing a brighter way, but this guy focus you should give up NS will not happen, honestly I don't think this is the right place for that kind of mentality, your opinion is your opinion, you don't need to stress yourself trying to force other to see things the way you do, every fan is biased in some way and that is not excluding him.
The absolute truth will only be known when the Manga is over, in the mean time let others believe what the want to believe, you are no one to be throwing their arguments back at them.

Meh, wouldn't be much of a debate thread without differences in opinions.

[PhenixElite]

I've honest with you, even if NS does not happen Kishi will make Sakura love Naruto before the end just to show Hinata not being a consolation price, Kushina's advice was about choosing the right girl, not giving up on a girl and choose the one you don't love but have to settle with her.
I don't believe Sasuke will reject Sakura if anyone reject her again it will be Naruto.

Uhh i really dont see it that way. To show sakura loving naruto and then she gets rejected by naruto would go against naruto charcter tgat was shown over 10 years. Seriously that would be bad writing from it finest. The main character trying to win the love of one girl the whole atory but in the end he rejects her. Just OMG.

[Don-kun]

Someone who can't take the downside of their pairing really has no room to be debating on a forum. Because this place is open to all pairings and to all points of view, he has every right to criticize without bashing. I don't care if he likes or dislikes NS. It doesn't mean I value or disvalue his opinion.

And this is a forum for people who like other things too. I joined here two years ago when I loved NS. Now I could care less on what happens with it. I read the story for other reasons, and I do other things that don't include Naruto at all. Because my love for NS has diminished thanks to Kishimoto, does that mean I shouldn't offer criticism to the fact that NS momentum has hit a gigantic brick wall?

It's the truth. I have hope that Naruto and Sakura will make it in the end, but realism also has to play a role in this debate.

Sorry I said not every fans like to be reminded of the negative stuff while there are positive stuff the person should also site.
Examples: Sakura lie to Naruto while she manipulate his feelings, she is a B, Sakura always hit Naruto.
Hitting hitting him is something we see in many Animes, while she lied to Naruto her intention was to help him. That's was my point


Also NS has not have a direct confrontation post confession between Naruto and Sakura Sakura last attempt was after Naruto miraculously fainted when she was approaching him, that tells me that Kishi wants to keep the pairing drama alive and to do so he need to keep them away from each other, after all a NaruSaku resolution friendship or couple will determine the outcome and there will be no more pairing tension, so not making Naruto's feelings towards Hinata clear, Sakura still having her lingering feelings towards Sasuke, Naruto not confessing to Sakura and keeping them away from any confrontation keeps that tension very much alive.

About the user, My problem is not about opinion, my problem is you arguing against everyone's opinions in a NS FC, this equal any user going to a pro club to make anti comments and argue every single pro fan point of view same goes to making pro arguments in an anti club.

Uhh i really dont see it that way. To show sakura loving naruto and then she gets rejected by naruto would go against naruto charcter tgat was shown over 10 years. Seriously that would be bad writing from it finest. The main character trying to win the love of one girl the whole atory but in the end he rejects her. Just OMG.

I don't see this either, but its the only way I see kishi ending the Manga a Naru plus any female that isn't Sakura and don't make that girl look like consolation prise, Naruto losing in love and betraying the fact that he say that he hates people who like to them self and his overall character.

Meh, wouldn't be much of a debate thread without differences in opinions.

I always consider other forums like one manga forums, NF , You Tube, viz forums etc general debate places, I never consider this place a general debate thread since most of the fans here are NS fans, but I starting to feel that I was always wrong based on the replies I gotten so far.

Edited by Don-kun, 04 January 2013 - 08:17 AM.

[PhenixElite]

I don't see this either, but its the only way I see kishi ending the Manga a Naru plus any female that isn't Sakura and don't make that girl look like consolation prise, Naruto losing in love and betraying the fact that he say that he hates people who like to them self and his overall character.

yep , thats maybe true but to be honest with you, for me kishi cant show naruto coming together with a different girl than sakura without destroying characters and a a part of his story. It would have been no problem to do so if he showed some development for naruto with other girls(like showing interest in them or spending some time with them). Now its already too late for something like that.

For me no matter how he shows naruto coming together with someone else, after that story it will always seem like a consolation prize.

Also i agree with you. This forum isnt the same it used to be.

Edited by PhenixElite, 04 January 2013 - 08:30 AM.

[Chucky-kun]

I always consider other forums like one manga forums, NF , You Tube, viz forums etc general debate places, I never consider this place a general debate thread since most of the fans here are NS fans, but I starting to feel that I was always wrong based on the replies I gotten so far.

If you go to the very first ns debate thread, you see the question is, are you willing to test your mettle against the legions of Naruhina and sasusaku. So yeah....

[dragonflyx11]

debate is one thing, but the anger and hostility is not welcome here. most people think ns has completely stalled. i dont see it that way. i mean it was not long ago that a movie that was basically full of NS was released. now usually you would say oh thats a movie it means nothing. usually thats true, but kishi himself wrote the story for it and that counts for something. please no more attacking members views. you feel narausaku will still happen? great im happy for you! you dont? thats fine too but plz dont belittle those that do.

Edited by dragonflyx11, 04 January 2013 - 08:29 AM.

[Chucky-kun]

debate is one thing, but the anger and hostility is not welcome here. most people think ns has completely stalled. i dont see it that way. i mean it was not long ago that a movie that was basically full of NS was released. now usually you would say oh thats a movie it means nothing. usually thats true, but kishi himself wrote the story for it and that counts for something. please no more attacking members views. you feel narausaku will still happen? great im happy for you! you dont? thats fine too but plz dont belittle those that do.

Don't you mean..... Sailed?


YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Pun intended.

[Don-kun]

yep , thats maybe true but to be honest with you, for me kishi cant show naruto coming together with a different girl than sakura without destroying characters and a a part of his story. It would have been no problem to do so if he showed some development for naruto with other girls(like showing interest in them or spending some time with them). Now its already too late for something like that.

Men I should be sleeping 6hours ago, now is 3:29AM.

Back on topic:
I also stand with this belief, Kishi forcing NaruHina in the middle of a war doesn't seems to me like his style, I really lost a lot of trust in him, but I want to believe that he will not force stuff on the readers and for some reason maybe Am wrong, but I believe that Hinata might help the NS Resolution, because even when she is a side character I cannot see this Manga ending with her receiving a broken heart, who knows if her words in 573 meant that she already notice something between Naruto and Sakura or she meant that she will not chase him anymore because she will have him by then.

Edited by Don-kun, 04 January 2013 - 08:41 AM.

[luffyq1]

Men I should be sleeping 6hours ago, now is 3:29AM.

Back on topic:
I also stand with this belief, Kishi forcing NaruHina in the middle of a war doesn't seems to me like his style.

Thing is, he already forced the recent NH moment on us. How do you think it led up to Naruto & Hinata holding hands? Neji had to die and Naruto had to look like a hopeless baby, and out of nowhere pops heroine Hinata. If that doesn't scream force then I don't know what will. NH being forced on us is a possibility.

[Chucky-kun]

Thing is, he already forced the recent NH moment on us. How do you think it led up to Naruto & Hinata holding hands? Neji had to die and Naruto had to look like a hopeless baby, and out of nowhere pops heroine Hinata. If that doesn't scream force then I don't know what will. NH being forced on us is a possibility.

What if it's development of Hinata and NH? Then it would seem less forced as considering its a war, it means they have to grow up.

[luffyq1]

What if it's development of Hinata and NH? Then it would seem less forced as considering its a war, it means they have to grow up.

You could be right. But there's also another instance where Kishi forced things. Hinata's confession is another one. Her interrupting rescue attempt came out of nowhere. No one expected it, especially since Naruto told no one to interferer. What led to Naruto & Hinata holding hands is really disgusting writing in my opinion.

[Chucky-kun]

You could be right. But there's also another instance where Kishi forced things. Hinata's confession is another one. Her interrupting rescue attempt came out of nowhere. No one expected it, especially since Naruto told no one to interferer. What led to Naruto & Hinata holding hands is really disgusting writing in my opinion.

"Out of place" seems a fitting choice of words

[Canadian_DJ]

Man that's deep.

Lol your being sarcastic right.....

@Chucky-kun Lol i thought it was gonna be long...but ah what the heck

[PhenixElite]

You could be right. But there's also another instance where Kishi forced things. Hinata's confession is another one. Her interrupting rescue attempt came out of nowhere. No one expected it, especially since Naruto told no one to interferer. What led to Naruto & Hinata holding hands is really disgusting writing in my opinion.

I think the latest chapter is not enough to say that kishi made disgusting writing, ok maybe that nejis death seemed pretty useless and easy forhotten, but i would wait for future chapters to state this.

I know that 99% in here wont see it the same way like i do, because FOR ME this chapter just showed that NS has a much higher possibiltiy of happening then before, since hinata already reached her wants and was able to get a huge development in standing next to naruto and holding his hand. Its great that this happend now in this situation, becauae it would have been bad to see something like that after the war and very close to the end of the manga.

This just personally shows me that Sakura is the one whos going to get the develolment with naruto in the last arc, and that makes me very confident that NS happens. I would be more worried if sakura was in hinatas place right now, since that would mean hinata is the one who still has the development on hold.

Again just my opinion.

Edited by PhenixElite, 04 January 2013 - 10:07 AM.

[James S Cassidy]

I had to come back because someone begged me to.

However, I have trouble believing that Naruto would remain completely unphased if Sakura chose Sasuke after he turned good again. I really cannot see him grinning genuinely as his intial reaction. I always picture him having a pained facial expression while Sakura wasn't looking. He frequently displayed this during the Hospital scene and the PoaL and much later, 459 when Sakura started crying over what Karui said (In all of this instances, Sakura didn't see). Naruto is very selfless in character. He's proved it far too many times to count. But he's still human. No one is gonna be completely happy if the person they love is in love with someone else. Of course Naruto is gonna be sad over SS. Just because he's not happy with SS doesn't make him selfish. What matter is what he does afterwards. And what does he do? He ignores his own feelings of pain and discomfort because Sakura's happiness matters more to him. It doesn't make his love selfish. Quite the opposite. That's exactly why I sympathetize with Naruto so terribly and one of the reasons why he's my favorite character. You know it hurts him but he never lets it control him. Not when it comes to Sakura. That's what also made me a NS shipper.

Here is thing, who isn't selfish in this manga? If we want to play this game of who is selfish and who isn't, then let's look at everything and I am quoting you RomanG because you bring up a good point.

Hinata is selfish because she is constantly trying to push herself into Naruto's life. Yeah, she can do selfless things, but her intentions are completely the same since part 1. "Got to be better for Naruto. Got to fight for Naruto. Got to die for Naruto." She is probably the most selfish out of any other character and even now she remains it. Hinata, if you truly love Naruto let him go. You know the old saying "If you love something, set it free. If it comes back it was meant to be."

Naruto...is he selfish? Most of the time no, but let's say Luffy is right. Let's say Naruto was selfish in the instances that were pointed. Doesn't Naruto deserve to be a little selfish for once? All he ever does is fight for other people and do things to keep others happy. I think he deserves to be selfish for once because he is tearing himself apart by not being selfish from time to time. I don't believe he is as selfish as some have claimed here, but he does love Sakura. He does want her. If Hinata wanting him is not selfish, then Naruto is not selfish for wanting Sakura.

Now here is where someone will say that we are not talking about Hinata here and here is where I say then what are you comparing? If you truly want to see how selfish someone really is then you have to compare that to someone else who is selfish. Comparing Naruto to Obito is like comparing two opposites of the same coin. It might be the same coin, but it is too opposite. Instead, I chose Hinata because she is trying to be like Naruto. She wants to follow his example, but she lacks the ability to give up what she wants for the person they care about which is one of Naruto's biggest traits. Sometimes it is even too much because look at how he has handled this war.

Here is something. Sakura is the most selfless character out of the three of them. Think about it. Around the time of her confession she was willing to give up two things. The two most important things in her life, Naruto and Sasuke. She was willing to risk it all for Naruto's sake. She was willing to risk her own life even for Naruto's sake. Willing to risk him hating her. Is Hinata willing to do this? Did she jump at the chance to help? Not at all. Can't say she didn't know about it. I mean she had to know right? For someone Hinata loves so dearly, I would think she would want to know everything about him, but she doesn't.

Sakura also has not tried to push herself into Naruto's life. She doesn't have to, she is already there. One could argue she did this once in the confession and maybe I would agree, but it was one time. Hinata has done it a lot more times and people like her for it. Sakura hasn't tried to bring up romance in the middle of the battlefield because there is more important things to worry about. If Naruto's feelings for Sakura got out, Obito would use it to his advantage. Sakura hasn't thought about romance from either point of view. Not even the so called "romantic Sasuke thought." She thought negative about it.

Let's be honest, how can Sakura still love Sasuke? At best she is reevaluating what she once thought. She is rethinking her own image of Sasuke after seeing what he really was. A monster. How can any girl still love someone who tries to kill her. I give Sakura more credit than that. I don't think she is that stupid. She isn't still fantasizing about Sasuke like Hinata does Naruto. She isn't proclaiming that she is going to be with Sasuke in the end. In fact she said the opposite. She says she is going to be together with Naruto and she said this BEFORE she included with everyone else in the statement. "This time we're going to be together." People want to brush this off and only look at what she said afterwords. This is fact. If you want to ignore/deny it be my guest, but it is there.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

The confession:

Everyone wants to use this against NS, but we have several things that Sakura said that make it so she is not a liar. 1. She said she didn't want to make any mistakes. Lying is a pretty big one. 2. She said she KNEW what Naruto's answer was going to be, yet she did it anyway...Why? I smell miss-direction. I think she wanted people to think she was lying and wanted Naruto to hate her because if she killed Sasuke then she wouldn't need to feel the sting of betraying Naruto. She wanted him to hate her now because she was going to do something horrible and she felt she didn't deserve his love. She felt that she didn't deserve Naruto to love her especially when she was going to kill the one thing that tied them together.

I know what she was thinking. She wanted to distance herself not for her sake, but for Naruto's. She wanted Naruto to be happy and stop suffering. She is not stupid. Instead she just wanted to make things easier on him. She felt it would have been better if Sasuke was dead and she distanced herself because she felt like she was so selfish. That's a heroine moment if I have ever seen one. She was willing to give up her happiness for his. Does this mean SS is canon? No. In fact, the opposite. It means that NS is a lot more stronger than NH and SS combined simply because Sakura was willing to forgo her own well being. People said the same thing about Hinata during the Pein Confession and I say it is the same here. Just she was willing to give up more than her life.

Naruto however proved her wrong and that Naruto's feelings for her were not a product of POAL or something, but the opposite. That's why Kakashi said a big burden was lifted off Naruto. He doesn't need to fight for Sakura's affection anymore. He got it. Now all he needs to do is save his friend. Some will say the burden was the POAL. Yeah, but what was the purpose of the POAL? To gain Sakura's affection and to bring his friend back. Now he just has to focus on one thing.

The biggest issue now is the speeches that people have given. What I call the "He said, she said" schtick and some of you are playing a double standard. "Sai said that Sakura still loves Sasuke," but he also said Naruto loves Sakura. So when he says Naruto loves Sakura he is lying, but when he says "Sakura loves Sasuke" he is telling the truth? Which is it? Then we got Naruto who tells Sakura he can't stand liars, which people say Naruto is calling Sakura a liar so she must be lying. So it must be true. Okay, but Naruto told Sai that he still loves Sakura. Is that true? To some Naruto is just being stupid and that "he really loved Hinata." What if he was being stupid about accusing Sakura lying as well? He lied to the Bridge Builder that there was no love triangle, yet tells Sai he still loves Sakura.

So who is right? And in all of this does Hinata play a part? Not one bit. She doesn't even get mentioned nor cross Naruto's mind and this was all AFTER her confession. Strange huh? Not as strange to me given how Naruto loves Sakura.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"People change or do they?"

Another major topic I see is whether or not the characters have changed their "sights" of one another. The answer is, only one has changed their view. Can you guess who that is?

One of the arguments I see is that Naruto could change his feelings to Hinata. While this could happen, has it really? Can anyone definitively say with NO bias that Naruto has changed his feelings to Hinata? (So far all my non-shipping fan friends say they don't see Naruto changing his feelings) I can't find one instance in this manga to support it. I can't find one where he thought just about Hinata or thought about her more than just a friend. Even in 615.

With that being said, what about Hinata? Could Hinata change her feelings for someone else? It is possible, but has she? No, she hasn't. She hasn't changed since part 1. The only thing different is she has become more assertive. BTW, who ever did that thing about the romantic handhold was brilliant. I never noticed that Naruto is holding Hinata's hand palm to back of hand. If it was suppose to be romantic, why not make it palm to palm with fingers intertwined. In fact, I would even go as far to say that Hinata isn't even trying to hold his hand. She is just limp. Very similar to how Kurama-Naruto held Kakashi's hand to toss and transfer chakra.

I think Hinata is trying to be romantic, but Naruto's isn't. Which is how past events unfolded.

Anyway, sidetracked. Likewise, Sakura...couldn't Sakura change her feelings as well? Couldn't she also feel something different? People want to assume that only Naruto can change his opinion, but never want to think anyone else can change.

I want to add: If no one changes their view, then no couple is canon.

I want to ask this, what if NS happened in Part 1? If NS became canon in part one, then there would be no POAL, most of the drama in the entire manga would be cut-out and the whole time would just be Dragonball Z-type fighting. (Villain comes, Hero beats him, over.) The drama is there to give moments like these. The drama is there so we can have threads like these and I think Kishi knows this. I don't always agree on the way he executes such drama, but I know why he does it. People call it bias, I call it being realistic. How many other manga follow this same exact type of pattern? Tons. Tons and tons of it with love triangles.

Tokyo Mew Mew did it with Ryu and Ichigo and Masaya. Who did she end up with in the end? Masaya, her first love choice. It has happened in Rurouni Kenshin. It has happened in Outlaw Star (A true fan will know what I am talking about.) It has happened in Love Hina. It is happening now in HOTD, though the outcome is still undetermined. Happened in reverse in Fruits Basket. Baka and Test almost has an exact replica of this with the two girls, one tsundere and the other shy, going after his affection. With the tsundere being unable to express her real emotions and who I might add is more violent towards him that Sakura is to Naruto.

This is not a new practice.

I want to emphasis this again. I was once a NH fan because I thought it was cute how she was as a child, but when I saw the relationship between Naruto and Sakura, when I saw how similar they both are and how comical they both were with each other I knew they were going to get together. That's why I changed. Hinata would be with Naruto in a heartbeat without knowing who is he really is and how he behaves. All she knows is his Nindo, but nothing else. She just doesn't know because she hasn't tried to get to know him as a person. Sakura has the advantage because she saw Naruto at his worst and she liked him then. She just didn't want to admit it because she wanted to be popular. It's like High School with the girl who wants to be popular. After a while, they realize that is not what life is about. Sakura even spent time with Naruto on a regular day without the wars, violence, and missions and look how it went. She wanted to help him and feed him, but to comical relief Sai beat her to it. Was Hinata there? No. Did Naruto think of Hinata? No. Did Sakura think of Sasuke? No.

Sakura and Hinata did have one thing in common. Hinata is in love with the idea of Naruto as Sakura was in love with the idea of Sasuke. The playing field has changed and while I believe Hinata has not changed her "idea" of Naruto, Sakura has changed her "idea" of Sasuke. She has realized that he is not everything her original idea was. She is realizing that Sasuke is not the idea man she made him out to be, but the idea man she thought of was in Naruto this whole time. A "Great guy."

Is Sasuke a "Great guy?" I think the answer is obvious.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(xxRomanceGirlxx @ Jan 3 2013, 11:15 PM) *
I've stated this many times but Sakura doesn't realize nor understand her feelings for Naruto. Wanna wonder why her confession didn't seem completely sincere? There's the reason right there. I'm enternally frustrated that not many people in the fandom realize this and that Naruto himself doesn't either. Also why I hate watching Sakura's confession on YT and end up forced to read comments saying "Sakura's such a liar, she loves Sasuke. How can she hurt Naruto that badly?" or "Sakura's always hitting Naruto, never really showing an interest in him. I'm not really surprised Naruto didn't believe her. Hinata's liked him from the beginning, no matter what. Now that's true love."

facepalm.png facepalm.png facepalm.png facepalm.png facepalm.png

Bolded: Funny how that argument is a double edged sword: "Naruto loved Sakura no matter what since the beginning so it must be true love."

Edited by James S Cassidy, 04 January 2013 - 12:03 PM.

[Chucky-kun]

I had to come back because someone begged me to.



Here is thing, who isn't selfish in this manga? If we want to play this game of who is selfish and who isn't, then let's look at everything and I am quoting you RomanG because you bring up a good point.

Hinata is selfish because she is constantly trying to push herself into Naruto's life. Yeah, she can do selfless things, but her intentions are completely the same since part 1. "Got to be better for Naruto. Got to fight for Naruto. Got to die for Naruto." She is probably the most selfish out of any other character and even now she remains it. Hinata, if you truly love Naruto let him go. You know the old saying "If you love something, set it free. If it comes back it was meant to be."

Naruto...is he selfish? Most of the time no, but let's say Luffy is right. Let's say Naruto was selfish in the instances that were pointed. Doesn't Naruto deserve to be little selfish for once? All he ever does is fight for other people and do things to keep others happy. I think he deserves to be selfish for once because he is tearing himself apart by not being selfish from time to time. I don't believe he is as selfish as some have claimed here, but he does love Sakura. He does want her. If Hinata wanting him is not selfish, then Naruto is not selfish for wanting Sakura.

Now here is where someone will say that we are not talking about Hinata here and here is where I say then what are you comparing? If you truly want to see how selfish someone really is then you have to compare that to someone else who is selfish. Comparing Naruto to Obito is like comparing two opposites of the same coin. It might be the same, but it is too opposite. Instead, I chose Hinata because she is trying to be like Naruto. She wants to follow his example, but she lacks the ability to give up what she wants for the person they care about which is one of Naruto's biggest traits. Sometimes it is even too much because look at how he has handled this war.

Here is something. Sakura is the most selfless character out of the three of them. Think about it. Around the time of her confession she was willing to give up two things. The two most important things in her life, Naruto and Sasuke. She was willing to risk it all for Naruto's sake. She was willing to risk her own life even for Naruto's sake. Willing risk him hating her. Is Hinata willing to do this? Did she jump at the chance to help? Not at all. Can't say she didn't know about it. I mean she had to know right? For someone Hinata loves so dearly, I would think she would want to know everything about him, but she doesn't.

Sakura also has not tried to push herself into Naruto's life. She doesn't have to, she is already there. One could argue she did this once in the confession and maybe I would agree, but it was one time. Hinata has done it a lot more times and people like her for it. Sakura hasn't tried to bring up Romance in the middle of the battlefield because there is more important things to worry about. If Naruto's feelings for Sakura got out, Obito would use it to is advantage. Sakura hasn't thought about romance from either point of view. Not even the so called "romantic Sasuke thought." She thought negative about it.

Let's be honest, how can Sakura still love Sasuke? At best she is reevaluating what she once thought. She is rethinking her own image of Sasuke after seeing what he really was. A monster. How can any girl still love someone who tries to kill her. I give Sakura more credit than that. I don't think she is that stupid. She is isn't still fantasizing about Sasuke like Hinata does Naruto. She isn't proclaiming that she is going to be with Sasuke in the end. In fact she said the opposite. She says she is going to be together with Naruto and she said this BEFORE she included with everyone else in the statement. "This time we're going to be together." People want to brush this off and only look at what she said afterwords. This is fact. If you want to ignore/deny it be my guest, but it is there.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

The confession:

Everyone wants to use this against NS, but we have several things that Sakura said that make it so she is not a liar. 1. She said she didn't want to make any mistakes. Lying is a pretty big one. 2. She said she KNEW what Naruto's answer was going to be, yet she did it anyway...Why? I smell miss-direction. I think she wanted people to think she was lying and wanted Naruto to hate her because if she killed Sasuke then she wouldn't need to feel the sting of betraying Naruto. She wanted him to hate her now because she was going to do something horrible and she felt she didn't deserve his love. She felt that she didn't deserve Naruto to love her especially when she was going to kill the one thing that tied them together.

I know what she was thinking. She wanted to distance herself not for her sake, but for Naruto's. She wanted Naruto to be happy and stop suffering. She is not stupid. Instead she just wanted to make things easier on him. She felt it would have been better if Sasuke was dead and she distanced herself because she felt like she was so selfish. That's a heroine moment if I have ever seen one. She was willing to give up her happiness for his. Does this mean SS is canon? No. In fact the opposite. It means that NS is a lot more stronger than NH and SS combined simply because Sakura was willing to forgo her own well being. People said the same thing about Hinata during the Pein Confession and I say it is the same here. Just she was willing to give up more than her life.

Naruto however proved her wrong and that Naruto feelings for her were not a product of POAL or something, but the opposite. That's why Kakashi said a big burden was lifted off Naruto. He doesn't need to fight for Sakura affection anymore. He got it. Now all he needs to do is save his friend. Some will ay the burden was the POAL. Yeah, but what was the purpose of the POAL? To gain Sakura's affection and to bring his friend back. Now he just has to focus on one thing.

The biggest issue now is the speeches that people have given. What I call the "He said, she said" schtick and some of you are playing a double standard. "Sai said that Sakura still loves Sasuke," but he also said Naruto loves Sakura. So when he says Naruto loves Sakura he is lying, but when he says "Sakura loves Sasuke" he is telling the truth? Which is it? Then we got Naruto who tells Sakura he can stand liars, which people say Naruto is calling Sakura liar so she must be lying. So it must be true. Okay, but Naruto told Sai that he still loves Sakura. Is that true? To some Naruto is just being stupid. What if he was being stupid about accusing Sakura lying as well? He lied to the Bridge Builder that there was no love triangle, yet tells Sai he still loves Sakura.

So who is right? And in all this does Hinata play a part? Not one bit. She doesn't even get mentioned nor cross Naruto's mind and this was all AFTER her confession. Strange huh? Not as strange to me given how Naruto loves Sakura.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"People change or do they?"

Another major topic I see is whether not the character have changed their "sights" of one another. The answer is, only one has changed their view. Can you guess who that is?

One of the arguments I see is that Naruto could change his feelings to Hinata. While this could happen, has it really? Can anyone definitively say with NO bias that Naruto has changed his feelings to Hinata? (So far all my non-shipping friend fans say they don't see Naruto changing his feelings) I can't find one instance in this manga to support it. I can't find one where he thought just about Hinata or thought about her more than just a friend. Even in 615.

With that being said, what about Hinata? Could Hinata change her feelings for someone else? It is possible, but has she? No, she hasn't. She hasn't changed since part 1. The only thing different is she has become more assertive. BTW, who ever did that thing about the romantic handhold was brilliant. I never noticed that Naruto is holding Hinata's hand palm to back of hand. If it was suppose to be romantic, why not make it palm to palm with fingers intertwined. In fact, I would even go as far to say that Hinata isn't even trying to hold his hand. She is just limp. Very similar to how Kurama-Naruto held Kakashi's hand to toss and transfer chakra.

I think Hinata is trying to be romantic, but Naruto's isn't. Which is how past events unfolded.

Anyway, sidetracked. Likewise, Sakura...couldn't Sakura change her feelings as well? Couldn't she also feel something different? People want to assume that only Naruto can change his opinion, but never want to think anyone else can change.

I want to ask this, what if NS happened in Part 1? If NS became canon in part one, then there would be no POAL, most of the drama in the entire manga would be cut-out and the whole time would just be Dragonball Z-type fighting. (Villain comes, Hero beats him, over.) The drama is there to give moments like these. The drama is there so we can have threads like these and I think Kishi knows this. I don't always agree on the way he executes such drama, but I know why he does it. People call it bias, I call it being realistic. How many other manga follow this same exact type of pattern? Tons. Tons and tons of it with love triangles.

Tokyo Mew Mew did it with Ryu and Ichigo and Masaya. Who did she end up with in the end? Masaya, her first love choive. It has happened in Rurouni Kenshin. It has happened in Outlaw Star (A true fan will know what I am talking about.) It has happened in Love Hina. It is happening now in HOTD, though the outcome is still undetermined. Happened in reverse in Fruits Basket. Baka and Test almost has an exact replica of this with the two girls, one tsundere and the other shy, going after his affection. With the tsundere being unable to express her real emotions and who I might add is more violent towards him that Sakura is to Naruto.

This is not a new practice.

I want to emphasis this again. I was once a NH fan because I thought it was cute how she was as a child, but when I saw the relationship between Naruto and Sakura, when I saw how similar they both are and how comical they both were with each other I knew they were going to get together. That's why I changed. Hinata would be with Naruto in a heartbeat without knowing who is he really is and how he behaves. All she knows is his Nindo, but nothing else. She just doesn't know because she hasn't tried to get to know him as a person. Sakura has the advantage because she saw Naruto at his worst and she liked him then. She just didn't want to admit it because she wanted to be popular. It's like High School with the girl who want to be popular. After a while, they realize that is not what life is about. Sakura even spent time with Naruto on a regular day with the wars, violence, and missions and look how it went. She wanted to help him and feed him, but to comical relief Sai beat her to it.

Sakura and Hinata did have one thing in common. Hinata is in love with the idea of Naruto as Sakura was in love with the idea of Sasuke. The playing has changed and while I believe Hinata has no changed her "idea" of Naruto, Sakura has changed her "idea" of Sasuke. She has realized that he is not everything her original idea was. She is realizing that Sasuke is not the idea man she made him out to be, but the idea man she thought of was in Naruto this whole time. A "Great guy."

Is Sasuke a "Great guy?" I think the answer is obvious.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Bolded: Funny how that argument is a double edged sword: "Naruto loved Sakura no matter what since the beginning so it must be true love."

Great post

I prefer to think of it as NH's "concrete" arguments in a nutshell.

@Canadian DJ What were you referring to?

Edited by Chucky-kun, 04 January 2013 - 10:18 AM.

[Canadian_DJ]

Great post

I prefer to think of it as NH's "concrete" arguments in a nutshell.

@Canadian DJ What were you referring to?

What i meant to say is that while i was replying is that i thought i was gonna go in depth buuut it went in a very short reply...awkward i know lol.

@James Awsome post, read every bit of it, this is something most people tend to forget.Thanks for saving...the....thread again lol.

Hey guys we know that qhen a girl feeds a boy in japan its something japanese girls tend to do with their boyfriends, and hugging is considered VERY romantic in japan.

I know naruto only wanted to give hinata chakra, we'll confirm this is the next chapter, but IS hand-holdin considered a romantic gesture in japan?

[James S Cassidy]

@James Awsome post, read every bit of it, this is something most people tend to forget.Thanks for saving...the....thread again lol.

I am like Superman. I know when I am needed.

Kidding of course.

I know naruto only wanted to give hinata chakra, we'll confirm this is the next chapter, but IS hand-holdin considered a romantic gesture in japan?

If it is then I guess Kakashi x Naruto is canon now too.

Edited by James S Cassidy, 04 January 2013 - 11:04 AM.

[xxRomanceGirlxx]

I had to come back because someone begged me to.



Here is thing, who isn't selfish in this manga? If we want to play this game of who is selfish and who isn't, then let's look at everything and I am quoting you RomanG because you bring up a good point.

Hinata is selfish because she is constantly trying to push herself into Naruto's life. Yeah, she can do selfless things, but her intentions are completely the same since part 1. "Got to be better for Naruto. Got to fight for Naruto. Got to die for Naruto." She is probably the most selfish out of any other character and even now she remains it. Hinata, if you truly love Naruto let him go. You know the old saying "If you love something, set it free. If it comes back it was meant to be."

Naruto...is he selfish? Most of the time no, but let's say Luffy is right. Let's say Naruto was selfish in the instances that were pointed. Doesn't Naruto deserve to be little selfish for once? All he ever does is fight for other people and do things to keep others happy. I think he deserves to be selfish for once because he is tearing himself apart by not being selfish from time to time. I don't believe he is as selfish as some have claimed here, but he does love Sakura. He does want her. If Hinata wanting him is not selfish, then Naruto is not selfish for wanting Sakura.

Now here is where someone will say that we are not talking about Hinata here and here is where I say then what are you comparing? If you truly want to see how selfish someone really is then you have to compare that to someone else who is selfish. Comparing Naruto to Obito is like comparing two opposites of the same coin. It might be the same, but it is too opposite. Instead, I chose Hinata because she is trying to be like Naruto. She wants to follow his example, but she lacks the ability to give up what she wants for the person they care about which is one of Naruto's biggest traits. Sometimes it is even too much because look at how he has handled this war.

Here is something. Sakura is the most selfless character out of the three of them. Think about it. Around the time of her confession she was willing to give up two things. The two most important things in her life, Naruto and Sasuke. She was willing to risk it all for Naruto's sake. She was willing to risk her own life even for Naruto's sake. Willing risk him hating her. Is Hinata willing to do this? Did she jump at the chance to help? Not at all. Can't say she didn't know about it. I mean she had to know right? For someone Hinata loves so dearly, I would think she would want to know everything about him, but she doesn't.

Sakura also has not tried to push herself into Naruto's life. She doesn't have to, she is already there. One could argue she did this once in the confession and maybe I would agree, but it was one time. Hinata has done it a lot more times and people like her for it. Sakura hasn't tried to bring up Romance in the middle of the battlefield because there is more important things to worry about. If Naruto's feelings for Sakura got out, Obito would use it to is advantage. Sakura hasn't thought about romance from either point of view. Not even the so called "romantic Sasuke thought." She thought negative about it.

Let's be honest, how can Sakura still love Sasuke? At best she is reevaluating what she once thought. She is rethinking her own image of Sasuke after seeing what he really was. A monster. How can any girl still love someone who tries to kill her. I give Sakura more credit than that. I don't think she is that stupid. She is isn't still fantasizing about Sasuke like Hinata does Naruto. She isn't proclaiming that she is going to be with Sasuke in the end. In fact she said the opposite. She says she is going to be together with Naruto and she said this BEFORE she included with everyone else in the statement. "This time we're going to be together." People want to brush this off and only look at what she said afterwords. This is fact. If you want to ignore/deny it be my guest, but it is there.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

The confession:

Everyone wants to use this against NS, but we have several things that Sakura said that make it so she is not a liar. 1. She said she didn't want to make any mistakes. Lying is a pretty big one. 2. She said she KNEW what Naruto's answer was going to be, yet she did it anyway...Why? I smell miss-direction. I think she wanted people to think she was lying and wanted Naruto to hate her because if she killed Sasuke then she wouldn't need to feel the sting of betraying Naruto. She wanted him to hate her now because she was going to do something horrible and she felt she didn't deserve his love. She felt that she didn't deserve Naruto to love her especially when she was going to kill the one thing that tied them together.

I know what she was thinking. She wanted to distance herself not for her sake, but for Naruto's. She wanted Naruto to be happy and stop suffering. She is not stupid. Instead she just wanted to make things easier on him. She felt it would have been better if Sasuke was dead and she distanced herself because she felt like she was so selfish. That's a heroine moment if I have ever seen one. She was willing to give up her happiness for his. Does this mean SS is canon? No. In fact the opposite. It means that NS is a lot more stronger than NH and SS combined simply because Sakura was willing to forgo her own well being. People said the same thing about Hinata during the Pein Confession and I say it is the same here. Just she was willing to give up more than her life.

Naruto however proved her wrong and that Naruto feelings for her were not a product of POAL or something, but the opposite. That's why Kakashi said a big burden was lifted off Naruto. He doesn't need to fight for Sakura affection anymore. He got it. Now all he needs to do is save his friend. Some will ay the burden was the POAL. Yeah, but what was the purpose of the POAL? To gain Sakura's affection and to bring his friend back. Now he just has to focus on one thing.

The biggest issue now is the speeches that people have given. What I call the "He said, she said" schtick and some of you are playing a double standard. "Sai said that Sakura still loves Sasuke," but he also said Naruto loves Sakura. So when he says Naruto loves Sakura he is lying, but when he says "Sakura loves Sasuke" he is telling the truth? Which is it? Then we got Naruto who tells Sakura he can't stand liars, which people say Naruto is calling Sakura liar so she must be lying. So it must be true. Okay, but Naruto told Sai that he still loves Sakura. Is that true? To some Naruto is just being stupid. What if he was being stupid about accusing Sakura lying as well? He lied to the Bridge Builder that there was no love triangle, yet tells Sai he still loves Sakura.

So who is right? And in all this does Hinata play a part? Not one bit. She doesn't even get mentioned nor cross Naruto's mind and this was all AFTER her confession. Strange huh? Not as strange to me given how Naruto loves Sakura.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"People change or do they?"

Another major topic I see is whether or not the characters have changed their "sights" of one another. The answer is, only one has changed their view. Can you guess who that is?

One of the arguments I see is that Naruto could change his feelings to Hinata. While this could happen, has it really? Can anyone definitively say with NO bias that Naruto has changed his feelings to Hinata? (So far all my non-shipping fan friends say they don't see Naruto changing his feelings) I can't find one instance in this manga to support it. I can't find one where he thought just about Hinata or thought about her more than just a friend. Even in 615.

With that being said, what about Hinata? Could Hinata change her feelings for someone else? It is possible, but has she? No, she hasn't. She hasn't changed since part 1. The only thing different is she has become more assertive. BTW, who ever did that thing about the romantic handhold was brilliant. I never noticed that Naruto is holding Hinata's hand palm to back of hand. If it was suppose to be romantic, why not make it palm to palm with fingers intertwined. In fact, I would even go as far to say that Hinata isn't even trying to hold his hand. She is just limp. Very similar to how Kurama-Naruto held Kakashi's hand to toss and transfer chakra.

I think Hinata is trying to be romantic, but Naruto's isn't. Which is how past events unfolded.

Anyway, sidetracked. Likewise, Sakura...couldn't Sakura change her feelings as well? Couldn't she also feel something different? People want to assume that only Naruto can change his opinion, but never want to think anyone else can change.

I want to ask this, what if NS happened in Part 1? If NS became canon in part one, then there would be no POAL, most of the drama in the entire manga would be cut-out and the whole time would just be Dragonball Z-type fighting. (Villain comes, Hero beats him, over.) The drama is there to give moments like these. The drama is there so we can have threads like these and I think Kishi knows this. I don't always agree on the way he executes such drama, but I know why he does it. People call it bias, I call it being realistic. How many other manga follow this same exact type of pattern? Tons. Tons and tons of it with love triangles.

Tokyo Mew Mew did it with Ryu and Ichigo and Masaya. Who did she end up with in the end? Masaya, her first love choice. It has happened in Rurouni Kenshin. It has happened in Outlaw Star (A true fan will know what I am talking about.) It has happened in Love Hina. It is happening now in HOTD, though the outcome is still undetermined. Happened in reverse in Fruits Basket. Baka and Test almost has an exact replica of this with the two girls, one tsundere and the other shy, going after his affection. With the tsundere being unable to express her real emotions and who I might add is more violent towards him that Sakura is to Naruto.

This is not a new practice.

I want to emphasis this again. I was once a NH fan because I thought it was cute how she was as a child, but when I saw the relationship between Naruto and Sakura, when I saw how similar they both are and how comical they both were with each other I knew they were going to get together. That's why I changed. Hinata would be with Naruto in a heartbeat without knowing who is he really is and how he behaves. All she knows is his Nindo, but nothing else. She just doesn't know because she hasn't tried to get to know him as a person. Sakura has the advantage because she saw Naruto at his worst and she liked him then. She just didn't want to admit it because she wanted to be popular. It's like High School with the girl who want to be popular. After a while, they realize that is not what life is about. Sakura even spent time with Naruto on a regular day with the wars, violence, and missions and look how it went. She wanted to help him and feed him, but to comical relief Sai beat her to it.

Sakura and Hinata did have one thing in common. Hinata is in love with the idea of Naruto as Sakura was in love with the idea of Sasuke. The playing has changed and while I believe Hinata has no changed her "idea" of Naruto, Sakura has changed her "idea" of Sasuke. She has realized that he is not everything her original idea was. She is realizing that Sasuke is not the idea man she made him out to be, but the idea man she thought of was in Naruto this whole time. A "Great guy."

Is Sasuke a "Great guy?" I think the answer is obvious.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Bolded: Funny how that argument is a double edged sword: "Naruto loved Sakura no matter what since the beginning so it must be true love."

Amazing James! You're posts are absolutely frickin awesome. I'm shocked my one paragraph could cause you to brainstorm something like this. I'm surprised that you consider Naruto's feelings for Sakura a bit more selfish than her feelings for him. I've always thought Naruto and Sakura were equally selfess with each other. Completely agree on NH/SS. Hinata's isn't nearly as mature as Sakura is regarding her feelings. Sakura is beginning to get over her Sasuke image for so long while Hinata remains deeply in her Naruto fangirl state. And Hinata really is more selfish than all of them combined. Not bashing, just facts. Sakura showed great selflessness towards Naruto during the Kage Summit, something most of the NH/SS fans missed. And honestly? To put it bluntly, I can't see Hinata being mature to do all the things Sakura did for him during that time. Sakura was risking Naruto hating her because she wanted him safe. Hinata wouldn't do this. Why? Because her idealized and selfish love causes her too care too much about what Naruto thinks of her. She could never live with him hating her. Not like Sakura set out to do.

And you know what's the most upsetting thing for me? Despite Naruto's genuine love for her, he isn't fully acknowledging all the lengths Sakura goes for him. Especially in the Kage Summit. Or how she wants to help him as much as possible and be by his side. How insecure she feels that she doesn't do enough for him and doesn't deserve him. Naruto has not fully realized any of this. But Hinata? He gives her so much credit and acknowledgement in one chapter (615). It's not like Hinata doesn't deserve some of it. Just not to such a heavy extent. But Sakura? He ironically has not acknowledged her enough despite him constantly trying to shield and protect her (mainly emotionally, also physically).