31720 replies to this topic

[rocci]

@analyzer
Phantom said it best with the explanation for silver medal/second place.
Why we brought that thing because the topic is the necessity of naruto and sakura last interaction in the movie when she claim that he only want her to one up sasuke. Which based on the manga fact is wrong.

That's why we as narusaku fan complain about that scene. Since there's only one reason that the scene happen that's to negate naruto love sakura, therefor making Hinata naruto first love.
In other word Hinata is not naruto second love aka silver medal.

[rocci]

We can agree there, the scene is trying to negate that, and I don't think that is how they should have done that.

Yup, and I think it would be better if kishi just kill NS with sakura fake confession by making naruto said that he doesn't love Sakura anymore because "reason" thus making naruto in a netral status and opening the chance for nh to happen greatly without making them canon thus keeping the romantic tension till the end, somehow.

[Phantom_999]

Naruto did fall for his second love genuinely. There is no seeking of replacement.

 

The purpose of Naruto's and Sakura's talk isn't to talk about Naruto and Sakura's relationship, but Sakura saying that Hinata's love for Naruto did not fade/was not fake/she did not betray him. Honestly, after thinking about it, I'm fine with it that way, I'd rather have Naruto and Sakura maybe talk about it after 699 or something, but weirdly, I want Naruto to make the decision not to pursue her anymore and bless her choice of Sasuke. I feel like that would show a very mature action from Naruto. Or maybe they kiss or something sweet, tasting what could have been but ultimately denying themselves of it. Or maybe they do date but it doesn't work out. A lot of fun NS tragic possibilities to play with romantically to really squeeze heart strings without it going against the Last. It makes me want to write an NS fic where they are together for a while, but things just tear it apart.

 

For the last point: Guys, this Hinata is showing more concern for her scarf is as ridiculous as Hinata not caring about Neji as he died, or Sakura being abusive (Not from anywhere here, mind, just adding another example). We need to stop such baseless statements that are just absolutely absurd.

 

But that is your assumption too then is it not? That's not what happened. Sakura, again, said Naruto viewed her "as a trophy" to win from Sasuke hence the why she said " when you said you loved me it's because you didn't want to lose against Sasuke-kun right?" That in itself IGNORES how much they grew to care for eachother outside of Sasuke. Naruto cared about Sakura's happiness, That's part of the reason why he fought so hard to bring Sasuke back, and was willing to put his own feelings aside for her. THAT is COMPETING with Sasuke? Whereas Sakura learned about Naruto being a jinchuuriki and that losing Kurama/the Nine tailed Fox would kill him and she genuinely feared for his life and cried for him on two occasions, the first when she found out, the second when she saw how desperate Naruto would fight to bring Sasuke back home that he would willingly give up his sanity, and then felt useless about how little she is doing for him. that scene alone ruins all those moments listed and makes them BOTH seem like they do not understand love the tiniest bit and are IDIOTS.

 

Apparently you are missing the point of my post. Naruto and Hinata did not emotionally bond like that, even in the movie, therefore Naruto did not genuinely fall for Hinata like you are assuming. And no, I'm not saying this as a Naruto X Sakura Shipper, I am saying this as someone who has read the manga (the source material) for the last several years of his life. the moments between Naruto and Hinata outside of their hand holding scene in the war arc is only enough to give them the benefit of looking acquainted and barely gives them the benefit of looking like friends.

 

And no don't give me that excuse Kishimoto is shy about writing romance in, the manga has proven otherwise. Why would he include scenes of Sakura offering to feed Naruto, or hugging him in public right in front of the whole village, "if he was shy about writing romance?" Why would he do the hand holding scene with Hinata either if he was again embarrassed about writing in romance and felt he  would do a terrible job at it? And by the way Naruto wasn't holding Hinata's hand hand because he was feeling attracted to her, he was giving her some chakra for a fox cloak to protect her. Sakura's moments felt more genuine with no real ulterior motives because offering to feed Naruto was because they are in a normal everyday life moment , and the hugging scene again she was hugging him in front of a huge audience without a care of what people are thinking.

 

If you thinking me saying Hinata was more concerned with knitting Naruto's scarf than her sister's loss of eyesight, or that she did not care about Neji's death and more about holding Naruto's hand as  accusations then show me a panel that proves otherwise for the latter and a scene from the movie that proves other wise for the former. Show me one line for both of those scenes that prove Hinata was thinking about her cousin and sister, because I sure don't see it. I know that if I was writing the story, I would show that she was thinking of Neji and Hanabi by putting in lines for Neji's death along the lines "Watch me Neji, I'll protect Naruto-kun in your place!" And I sure wouldn't be writing about Hinata knitting a scarf for Naruto when her sister is blinded, because I'd be worrying about my family member if he or she is maimed and disabled rather than making a romantic gift for someone I'm not even going out with. While it could be said that is how I would do things, it doesn't change the fact that if the story wants to portray Hinata thinking about Neji and Hanabi during those times, it has to put in the effort to make it seem so. Again if it's an accusation like you say prove me wrong, and not with how it you interperate the scenes, show me a panel in the manga and a scene in the movie where Hinata genuinely was thinking about Neji and Hanabi. If you can't, don't call it an accusation   

Edited by Phantom_999, 12 July 2017 - 06:01 PM.

[BestSasuHinaSupporter]

Well, NaruSakians today is the day I will post my last and final topic on these forums, keep a eye out for it

[rocci]

Maybe.
 
But I forget in my analysis that Kishi's use of the red herring here also curtailed the who will he end up question. It got me, and I think that's really the base of all the bother of everything most feel.
 
I'm over it now, and weirdly, yes, Red Herrings are great to draw interest/mislead, but I think he should have gone without the red herring. He'd have been fine/better even that way, and it would have helped the ending a little bit.

You don't develop red herring.

You don't develop a pairing and then call it red herring because you're too lazy to conclude or write about it.

And kishi twist is bad and full of plot hole.

Oh and manga > anime.
Anything that's not in the manga is filler aka not canon, unless the author canonized it.

[Charger76]

You don't develop red herring.

You don't develop a pairing and then call it red herring because you're too lazy to conclude or write about it.

And kishi twist is bad and full of plot hole.

Oh and manga > anime.
Anything that's not in the manga is filler aka not canon, unless the author canonized it.

And you definitely don't develop the red herring better than the rest of the pairings. That was an error on his part

[Konoha'sCrimsonFox]

All this was a poorly done business decision. They took advantage of Kishi because he wanted out of Naruto for a very long time (he was getting tire and out of ideas for a very long time)  and money was the bargain for his freedom from Naruto.

 

All he had to do was give in to Shueisha and SP. They wanted the Boruto New Project Era and Kishi had to make it happen. The outcome was not decided by pairings.

 

The hate that Sakura accumulated over the years solely lead to the decision. With the ending, comes the controversial staged interviews that he got paid for this so called "damage control". Only to do the opposite.

 

Kishi realizes this mistake, but he already burned the last straw when he spoke about NS being a red herring, mirror Kushina as an example and made a confession that he was deliberately "misleading the NS fans for 15 years".

 

This is the reason why he look dejectedly and felt guilty during his appearance at the 2015 Jump Festa when he spoke about Sakura being his favorite female when it was weeks ago he said that Hinata was his favorite that even Junko felt very flustered about it and toad him to be silent like an non behaved child in front of everyone.

 

And thus Kishi realizes his errors and knows that he has burnt the bridge that he built in between us and is lost for ever. His endeavor and hopes realizes in the editor that brought him fame and fortune. By doing so, he now forfeits his freedom from Naruto as a bargaining chip for him to work under Yahagi once again for his new scifi manga. Thus he will forever be a puppet.

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

So in 614/615 and its corresponding anime episode we see Hinata in tears about Neji's death. She even quotes Neji's line after she snaps Naruto out of his shock. Evidence aside:

 

Why would Hinata not care about her own family member's death? That in itself makes no sense.

 

I don't see the Sakura hugging Naruto as romantic, nor the feeding scene, or the hand holding scene. The latter however, could be used in a defense of shipping progression.

 

What am I assuming? I don't think I was assuming anything, merely stating what was going on.

 

I really don't want to get into this Hinata and Scarf thing.

1: What is wrong, exactly, with sewing a Scarf while everyone is sleeping?

2: Before Naruto confesses, Hinata even reveals how silly she feels sewing while Hanabi is in enemy's hands.

 

We clearly understand that the sewing helps relax Hinata, and that Hanabi is very much on her mind during this mission. Naruto is too after the Sage's brother talks to her, as she has decided about this point to accept Toneri's offer in order to stop him.

 

I'm not saying you have to like Hinata. But this Scarf argument is one of the most embarrassing points brought up in debates I've noticed. Frankly, Hinata doesn't care about Neji is pretty darn close as well. At least the fact that Hinata says Naruto's name too much (Even if it is a cultural thing), can be agreed upon.

1.) Except that's not the only time it's brought up. It's a constant distraction throughout the entire middle of the film, with Hinata thinking more about giving it to Naruto than she does about her own flesh and blood. And even after she says it's silly, it certainly doesn't stop.her from continuing work on it during the mission.

2.) The film never shows nor tells that Hinata actually cares at all when it came to Neji and Hanabi. You're only wanting to think she does, hence "assumption", even though we're clearly been shown otherwise with nothing within the story itself to tell us differently when there were numerous ways they could have done so if they actually wanted us to believe such a thing.

3.) Outside of feeding someone when their sick, a person feeding someone is something that is seen as acting very affectionate towards them in Japan. This is why anime involving crushes and romance, even if the scene is meant to be comedic, make such a big deal out of such scenes involving a boy or girl feeding the other (shock, disbelief, blushing, stuttering, etc.), or even something as small as an "indirect kiss" by sharing a canned drink. And yes, even something as little as holding hands (depending on the context).
 

[Phantom_999]

So in 614/615 and its corresponding anime episode we see Hinata in tears about Neji's death. She even quotes Neji's line after she snaps Naruto out of his shock. Evidence aside:

 

Why would Hinata not care about her own family member's death? That in itself makes no sense.

 

I don't see the Sakura hugging Naruto as romantic, nor the feeding scene, or the hand holding scene. The latter however, could be used in a defense of shipping progression.

 

What am I assuming? I don't think I was assuming anything, merely stating what was going on.

 

I really don't want to get into this Hinata and Scarf thing.

1: What is wrong, exactly, with sewing a Scarf while everyone is sleeping?

2: Before Naruto confesses, Hinata even reveals how silly she feels sewing while Hanabi is in enemy's hands.

 

We clearly understand that the sewing helps relax Hinata, and that Hanabi is very much on her mind during this mission. Naruto is too after the Sage's brother talks to her, as she has decided about this point to accept Toneri's offer in order to stop him.

 

I'm not saying you have to like Hinata. But this Scarf argument is one of the most embarrassing points brought up in debates I've noticed. Frankly, Hinata doesn't care about Neji is pretty darn close as well. At least the fact that Hinata says Naruto's name too much (Even if it is a cultural thing), can be agreed upon.

 

Let me answer your question with another question. If Hinata was truly thinking about Neji and grieving over his death, Why was her inner dialogue thinking about How big and strong Naruto's hand was but not how she will uphold Neji's wishes? The fact that she quoted Neji's words means nothing, because she quotes Naruto all the time and doesn't try to speak of her on opinion on things or say things in her own way. the proof is in the pudding whenit comes to writing, so If Hinata really was thinking about Neji and grieving over his death, then her dialogue should be about that and not about Holding Naruto's "big strong hand".

 

If you don't see the feeding scene or the hugging scene with Sakura as romantic I don't see why that you would  view any interaction with Naruto and Hinata as romantic then. Unless you are admitting you are only wearing shipping goggles for Naruto and Hinata, and therefore are not being unbiased like you are passing yourself as. Everything I have spoken about in regards to the interactions between Naruto and Sakura or Naruto and Hinata come from a completely unbiased view because I'm pretty sure that feeding a person of the opposite sex is a pretty romantic gesture, as is hugging the opposite sex in front of a huge audience, because in Japanese culture those things are as intimate as making out, and Japanese people are VERY embarrassed about doing such things in public. I'm not dismissing the hand holding scene with Naruto and Hinata either, I'm just saying there was also an ulterior motive for it.

 

Why are you saying that you don't want to "bring up the scarf thing" if you are saying we are accusing Hinata of caring more about knitting Naruto a scarf instead of caring about her sister? shouldn't you be talking about it MORE if you want us to stop our "so called accusations"?

 

And on that subject let me answer your question. "What is wrong with knitting a scarf while everyone is sleeping?" It is not the act we are questioning, it is the intent. WHY is Hinata knitting a scarf for a guy she may be in love with but is not going out with, instead of worrying about how her sister got her eyes "ripped out from her skull"? She may be knitting to soothe her nerves yes, But who is she knitting the scarf for? Naruto. And therefore who is she thinking about, Naruto or Hanabi? you tell me. You are not changing my mind on how Hinata is selfishly thinking only about Naruto otherwise.

 

I may come off as hating Hinata, I but I don't dislike her, I hate the intent and portrayal of her. She is being molded into this male-self centered ideal of some perfect girlfriend/housewife that waits on her man hand and foot, and her man is all she thinks about. That is not a fleshed out or interesting character. Sakura may have been like that with Sasuke from the beginning, but she grew to care about Naruto and she shows that she is capable of empathizing and befriending others like Rock Lee. She mended her relationship with Ino after their fight, and she protected and soothed a little girl that was about to be killed when Pain invaded the village. Say what you want about Sakura , but she is not a flat one-dimensional character.

 

Finally, you say that it's embarrassing for us to argue about the scarf and Hinata not seeming to not care about Neji dying, but have you proven us wrong? NOPE, not so far. Unless you can convince us otherwise, don't complain about how we are embarrassing ourselves with the scarf and Neji's death argument, and actually show us PROOF that she IS actually thinking about Hanabi and Neji.  

Edited by Phantom_999, 12 July 2017 - 07:00 PM.

[Honestly]

So did you guys see the new ending what is up with that LoL SP is paying alot of money for this kitten last week they show a new ending and this week they changed it.

[Phantom_999]

Going backwards here:

 

3: The context of the feeding scene was the equivalent of being sick, in a sense of being physically being unable to do something, rather than being too weak to do it. Obviously Naruto wanted Sakura to do it because of his crush. Sai took over however, and then Kakashi took over from him. I'll maintain my dispute on it, and I think it's important we remember context. It'd have been great if Sakura volunteered and it turned into a romantic moment, mind. This is an instance that actually feeds more into an often used NH counter argument of potential romantic scenes being played out into comedy, than it does as a serious NS moment. I'm more fond of the Fake Confession arc, and later part 1 NS scenes because it treats NS seriously, with a serious potential for something, even if it is the start of the revelation that it was not to be.

 

2: The Last doesn't have a place for Neji, there's nothing important gained, needed, or wanted by the viewer in having Neji even mentioned, though the naming of Bolt implies a sort of honoring of Neji's memory alone. I think you mean Neji as in the 614/615 events, and I've illustrated that in Hinata's words. As for Hanabi, the scene I mention when Hinata is calling her scarf knitting silly, worrying about her sister, holding her sister's hand and vowing to make things right are obvious moments where she shows she cares. Note that Hinata didn't know about Hanabi's loss of eyes until she holds that hand as well. Hinata's rejection of Naruto tells us that she cares more for saving a family member's life/the world than her own romantic wishes. Will come back to this point in a moment.

 

1: After Hinata's rejection of Naruto, her sewing of the scarf is at toneri's request. Granted, the Scarf cannot symbolize a bond of love between her and Toneri, as it is the symbol of hers and Naruto's bond. We see the scarf torn apart several times, but it' perseveres and lasts. You don't have to like the scarf as a symbol (I actually like it, personally), but I find people are transforming it into this thing to hate.

 

Going back to 2, Hinata receives a lot of unfair and unjust criticism with an unfair weight to it. There's a complaint that Hinata is Naruto-centric She certainly isn't in the Last, she rejects the guy and works on trying to save the world herself. And looking at the Manga, most characters are "Naruto-Centric", Naruto is the main character, and every character's movement kind of revolves around that, particularly since he is a role model. It could be a weakness of the author, but Hinata doesn't have enough time to go flesh out all of her own things she does. The sole protagonist by Kishimoto's words is Naruto, and it would be distracting if side characters did things that did not advance things with Naruto or the plot he was in. Yes, she says Naruto's name too much for my taste, but I have to note there's a certain cultural aspect to it. Hinata's Naruto-centricness is the most visible because of her feelings to him and her big moments are actions motivated by them. Circling back to my point, Hinata is free of Naruto-centricism when she is a main character, though she still is attached to him obviously as a team-mate and love-interest. which serves to establish chronic tension in the movie.

 

You brought up Hinata thinking about Naruto's big hand, which is relevant because she is holding it, but not thinking about Neji. She just motivated Naruto back up while reminding him of Neji's words. I will also point out that Neji is alive in Hinata's dreamscape, and Hanabi is there as well. Her family is important to her. While I wouldn't put big hand if I were writing out that scene, that moment definitely should have some comment or thought towards Naruto, not Neji.

 

Lastly, this male-centric ideal of Hinata doesn't have merit. A lot of women really like Hinata, for her quiet strength and her personal struggle with voice, which is a position I can relate to myself. We don't get to see Team 8 missions, or Hinata dealing with non-Naruto issues much because Naruto is the protagonist, not Hinata. If we saw those things, this argument would die, but it is easy to understand why we did not see those things, the Manga is just not about Hinata in that way.

 

Thus, this "Scarf" argument is embarrassing because we are attacking this object Hinata is working on and putting our frustration into it, blowing it up into this terrible horrible thing that has nothing to do with what it serves for in the story.  Note the Last came out at a time when feelings still ran particularly high, and there were a LOT of illogical statements that we made back then. The Scarf was one of them, but that we continue to latch onto it is the embarrassing part. We called it Scarf-Kun, if I recall, and remembering this I don't like who we were back then, bitter, spiteful, and in some ways, destructive. I'm glad we recovered, but we need to sever ourselves fully from the illogical counterpoints of the past as well. This one, and the various, completely clashing stories of how Kishimoto was sabotaged, or pressured, or demanded by a fandom, are those illogical arguments I hope to see just die someday soon.

 

1 Disagreed. even if the the scene itself was turned into a comedy moment the fact is Sakura offering to even feed him in the moment  is still romantic because  if not why even delve into it? Why not just skip to Sai and Kakashi offering to feed Naruto and be done? Even better, why not have Hinata there and think to herself that she wants to help feed him but not go through with it because she is too shy? that fact that it was even drawn shows that the intent is there. If it was to be taken as platonic or Sakura just being helpful because Naruto is medically incapable feeding himself they wouldn't need to show an intimate flash back between them bonding over Naruto's optimism about saving Sasuke, and could also add in Sakura blatantly telling Naruto not to get the wrong idea, because she is only doing it since he can't use his chopsticks himself.

 

2. The Last is not about Neji, that is true, but note I did not even bring him up. I was bringing up why Hinata was not concerning herself with Hanabi and knitting a scarf for Naruto. Ask yourself this if your family member had just had just been maimed and possibly disabled, would you find yourself thinking about the person you like but are not going out and making them a gift instead? Same situation. And on that topic I would like to bring up why Hinata was knitting a scarf in the first place. She heard Naruto was wearing a scarf that he received from Kushina before he passed away. that alone does not necessitate that she has to keep knitting the scarf while her sister is blind. And while eve she admits it is silly  that she is even doing that, that alone does not make it believable that she is thinking about Hanabi, because then she would actually be considering giving the scarf to Hanabi instead which would make it more realistic. The scarf itself is not the problem, it is the fact that  the scarf has to be ground work for a bond between Naruto and Hinata that was hardlly if at all backed up in the manga and therefore Hinata has to focus on it and be unrealistically unconcerned for her sister. the fact of the matter is The Last movie "is FORCING" the love between Naruto and Hinata to be believable rather than letting it flow naturally as the manga should have done in the first place.

 

3. Wrong. Not about Hinata being selfless because I will give you that, but the fact that you are calling All characters that are not Naruto as Naruto-centric. They don't revolve around Naruto, because they have their own goals and ambitions, plus they don't always agree with what Naruto does or says. Hinata's goal has NEVER been defined, She only thinks about Naruto, and only goes with what Naruto does or says. That's the difference. If you REALLY want to use that logic of every other character is centered around the main character in anything then NO piece of fiction or media has any interesting characters besides the main character. ANY character that is not the main character is a satellite character then.

 

Hinata thinking about holding Naruto's hand IS relevant because Again I bring up the fact that is was actually her dialogue. If I were in the middle of a war, and one of my comrades died right in front of me, then I circumstances have me holding a woman's hand, I don't think I would b e thinking to myself how "nice it feels". If I were, That probably means I'm and not thinking about the war, nor my comrade that JUST GOT KILLED, I'd probably be thinking "I want to date this lady". Am I wrong? 

 

There is nothing wrong with Hinata's personality, and I'm not saying there is. Hinata IS a relatable character but that is not the point. THE POINT IS males objectify her for that personality, because that is the type of woman that THEY WANT. That is why Hinata is more prominent in the anime than she is in the manga. That is why so many people want her to be with Naruto and not Naruto with Sakura ( ignoring the Naruto and Sakura moments in the manga too might I add). That is why  "The Last Naruto the movie" even exists. And even then, they keep her character inconsistent in the anime. Strong and determined one episode shy and unassuming the next, therefore she is not even getting character development. Rabid Hinata fans put her on this pedestal and worship her like a goddess, while bashing Sakura relentlessly, calling her a "kitten" and "harlot" (there is another meaning for that word, look it up because the common word for that will be censored) but thiink Hinata is this flawless purity sue. THAT IS WHAT I HATE, not Hinata herself. If you were a neutral fan or  Naruto X Sakura fan you would see that

Edited by Phantom_999, 12 July 2017 - 09:34 PM.

[Bail o' Lies]

So did you guys see the new ending what is up with that LoL SP is paying alot of money for this kitten last week they show a new ending and this week they changed it.

Sorry I normally the one writing the summaries but since it don't have to talk about the opening or ending I don't pay attention to those what happened with the ending now?

[Honestly]

@ bail o' lies
Pretty much the naruto gaiden there showing in that ending sarada and Sakura holding hands sarada trying to reach Sasuke but he walks away from her. Sarada wearing her glass and seeing SSS holding hands but when she takes them off she see they are not close quit confusing Karin is there as well behind sarada

[Honestly]

Can someone tell me how to quote someone

[BlueStarSaber]

Can someone tell me how to quote someone

 

There is a quote box on the lower right corner when someone makes a post next to the multi-quote and report button

[Honestly]

 
There is a quote box on the lower right corner when someone makes a post next to the multi-quote and report button

thanks so much

Edited by Honestly, 12 July 2017 - 11:46 PM.

[BlueStarSaber]

thanks so much

No Problem

[Honestly]

Sorry I normally the one writing the summaries but since it don't have to talk about the opening or ending I don't pay attention to those what happened with the ending now?

SP have so much money to waste last week there ending was new this week they changed it again

[Yyubie]

I didn't (and will never) watch the last so correct me if i'm wrong. The fact that Hinata knows that Naruto wearing a scarf from Kushina and STILL insist knitting her own scarf for Naruto is really bad writing (the message for me is "I want you to forget about your mom and focus on me) adding into that is how Naruto instantly discard/throw away scarf from his own late mother as soon as he got the new one from Hinata ... Hinata should respect that and choose something else ... a pair of glove is good enough , Naruto .... man they really F him good in this movie.

 

Also this is just me but  ..... Winter ?? In Konoha Land of Fire / Fire country ???? I mean we know where the snow is ... is in the Land of Iron. Whoever write the story for this movie is SOOO F-ing stupid "OH it's a romance movie so we have to make it WINTER!!!" , i never saw once in the manga there is F-ing winter in Konoha .....

 

This movie is a big pile of S , it has no logic.

[Yojeveka]

If I recall correctly, Kishimoto received a scarf from his wife, so SP took the idea in order to create NH's bond. Something like that.