31716 replies to this topic

[VanitasDS76491]

The thing about Uchihas and genocide is that not all Uchihas had the sharingan. So did the ones with unactivated powers turn corrupt? Was it a small minority of sharingan user in a larger crowd of normal Uchiha civilians? Or was it that most of them were sharingan users? We don't know - the manga doesn't tell us. Either way, wiping out the entire clan is still genocide. But if it's a primarily civilian clan with less than 10 percent using this insane superpower, then the massacre is especially cruel. It's a killing of innocents and villagers, not strictly military targets.
 
But indiscriminate killings were quite frequent early on (when the manga was still a little edgier) with the Blood mist stuff, Hanzo who killed off family members, and the example of the Whirpool village which was wiped out completely. Later in the manga, it was not so tied to actual history and brutal. So tend to think the Uchihas were not completely bad, no more than any of the other villages/clans that got wiped out. They just had some extreme power that was feared and desired.
 
As for that crap about Uchihas loving too much? I think that was just b.s. put in at the end of the story to make people feel sorry for the Uchihas. There's no point to it and it doesn't justify anything to come except as a ploy to make readers accept Obito and cleanse Itachi of his sins. It doesn't make people feel sympathetic for Sasuke, because he is never changed into a sympathetic character. It's a stupid, cheap ploy stuck in the plot. And it doesn't justify the genocide, because we know not all clan members had an activated sharingan, so not all clan members were a threat. Innocents were most certainly killed. And this plot twist doesn't excuse that. 
 
As for Sakura and the hate — no matter what people say about her character evolution, it's not like she was so bad/out-of-character while the rest of the story went on perfectly and Sasuke and Naruto ended their character development as the best versions of themselves. Nope. The story went sideways, and by the end had unraveled altogether. (So much so that Sasuke is narrating Naruto's own manga?!?) Nothing is resolved and their final actions (in the manga) do not fall in line with any of the character development. B
 
But Sakura haters hang that all on her. That she is bad while the rest was great!   But really, it all sucked. Sakura turned out badly...and so did Naruto. Sasuke and Hinata are the only ones who got what they want.

Really sasuke got what he wanted I don't think so, since what did sasuke after he's kitten turn to good, cause his motives keep changing its hard to keep of them. So I ask again what did sasuke want after his fight with naruto, cause I doubt getting with sakura was part of that.

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

@nostradamus
Wait are you justified a genocide?
What stop danzou to do the same thing against another clan like say Nara clan because they pose threat to his authority.

Remember that all this reasoning to kill uchiha clan is in order to handwash itachi in order to make him a saint which in turn only hurt the narration.

@bail
Kaguya clan is mad clan like Vikings on crack. Eventhough it doesn't make any sense that the clan doesn't disappear long time ago. Kishi just want to make a sob story for kimimaro.

Not to sound like I'm justifying genocide at all, but it's one of those cases where they had to choose the lesser of evils because it was already proven that nothing else was working.

Negotiations have proven to not work as Hiruzen had already been trying to, but was always rejected.

Handing over all power to the Uchiha was out of the question.

Kicking the Uchiha out of Konoha would only make things much worse since they could simply ally themselves with another major village and not only give that village access to the Sharingan, but also, rather than a mere in-village coup that could be handled personally, it would kick off another full scale shinobi war that Konoha would most likely lose this time around having lost the Uchiha Clan, Minato being dead, Hiruzen being old, Orochimaru's betrayal, Tsunade wandering, Naruto obviously not able to do anything with Kurama's chakra, etc.

And it wasn't because of his authority being threatened that Danzo ordered them killed, but because, in his own extreme mind, it was to protect the village and to some degree, he was right. If the Uchiha Clan went through with their coup, then it would no doubt have caused the deaths of the Uchiha Clan anyway (as said a few times now, the Kaguya Clan tried a similar thing and ended up mostly wiped out anyway), but also cause who-knows-how-many deaths of other Konoha shinobi, clan or otherwise. This would end up severely weakening Konoha's already-weakened strength (they still hadn't fully recovered from Kurama's attack and were largely holding off other villages presumably by announcing Naruto's Jinchuriki status of Kurama and using it as a deterrent), and no doubt news of the coup would reach other villages, and would most likely encourage Iwa and Kumo to strike while the iron's hot.

I also think people put way too much blame on Tobirama. Was he distrustful of the Uchiha? Sure, but considering he was only recently at total war with them, then with what happened with Madara as well as learning that there was at least a sect of the Uchiha Clan who continued to follow Madara's beliefs that kept catching his attention, can you blame him for at least wanting to keep an eye on them? If he really hated them so much like people try to make him out to, he would never risk giving them the amount of power they wielded as Konoha's Police Force and he would have had them all killed as soon as possible. And he admitted that he didn't see them all as enemies and even respected their loyalty and work. He managed to keep a decent balance between his personal emotions and the good of the village. It was Danzo, Homura, and Koharu who took things more extremely though. Obviously Tobirama isn't innocent, but as said, neither are the Uchiha Clan, but I am also far inclined to believe Tobirama's side of the story than Madara's or Obito's, especially given Tobirama has been shown to be pretty brutally honest, not even holding back on Hashirama.
 

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

The thing about Uchihas and genocide is that not all Uchihas had the sharingan. So did the ones with unactivated powers turn corrupt? Was it a small minority of sharingan user in a larger crowd of normal Uchiha civilians? Or was it that most of them were sharingan users? We don't know - the manga doesn't tell us. Either way, wiping out the entire clan is still genocide. But if it's a primarily civilian clan with less than 10 percent using this insane superpower, then the massacre is especially cruel. It's a killing of innocents and villagers, not strictly military targets.

 

But indiscriminate killings were quite frequent early on (when the manga was still a little edgier) with the Blood mist stuff, Hanzo who killed off family members, and the example of the Whirpool village which was wiped out completely. Later in the manga, it was not so tied to actual history and brutal. So tend to think the Uchihas were not completely bad, no more than any of the other villages/clans that got wiped out. They just had some extreme power that was feared and desired.

 

As for that crap about Uchihas loving too much? I think that was just b.s. put in at the end of the story to make people feel sorry for the Uchihas. There's no point to it and it doesn't justify anything to come except as a ploy to make readers accept Obito and cleanse Itachi of his sins. It doesn't make people feel sympathetic for Sasuke, because he is never changed into a sympathetic character. It's a stupid, cheap ploy stuck in the plot. And it doesn't justify the genocide, because we know not all clan members had an activated sharingan, so not all clan members were a threat. Innocents were most certainly killed. And this plot twist doesn't excuse that. 

 

As for Sakura and the hate — no matter what people say about her character evolution, it's not like she was so bad/out-of-character while the rest of the story went on perfectly and Sasuke and Naruto ended their character development as the best versions of themselves. Nope. The story went sideways, and by the end had unraveled altogether. (So much so that Sasuke is narrating Naruto's own manga?!?) Nothing is resolved and their final actions (in the manga) do not fall in line with any of the character development. B

 

But Sakura haters hang that all on her. That she is bad while the rest was great!   But really, it all sucked. Sakura turned out badly...and so did Naruto. Sasuke and Hinata are the only ones who got what they want.

 

 Well said, Tricks-chan! Seriously, I do NOT like the ideas done with the Uchiha that were done, like their "loving too much", and it's true. It just tries to justify their actions when they had attempted mass murder due to believing in the ideals Madara had and all of that. It just makes you think Kishi shoulda gone and made Sasuke the protagonist, rather than Naruto, if all he was gonna do this crazy crap!

 

And that the Sakura hate and all? Seriously. And besides, if Hinata also got what she wanted, maybe she shoulda been the heroine from start besides Sasuke. @_@ 

Edited by Bryon_Konoha_Ninja, 28 May 2017 - 07:07 PM.

[Bail o' Lies]

I would like to point out that in the Uchiha case the village repeatedly attempted to try and negotiate with them to resolve it peacefully, and every attempt failed. If Danzo had not convince Itachi to go through with the massacre all that would have happened was the Uchiha would have suffered the same fate as the Kaguya clan. They would have set fire to the village killed a good number of innocence people and former friends. Then the village would have rallied and wiped them out. The village would have been weakened and the other major villages would have exploited it to their advantage. There may have even been the possibility of a war breaking out which even the people that knew about the massacre in the manga admitted. 

 

Yes, it is horrible when a clan has to die so they don't kill people when they rebel, or they put a demon inside of a child to use as a weapon because the other villages are doing it, or training children from birth as soldiers in an army of magical assassins, or when a clan is enslaved by their own kin, or any of the other horrible thing that happened to people because of the corrupt ninja system in this manga! But that's what Naruto was suppose to reform and failed at. All because SP were desperate to get their waifu the ending they wanted for her at the cost of everything else about the manga!

Edited by Bail o' Lies, 28 May 2017 - 07:33 PM.

[SlyNinjaKnight]

Regarding the Uchiha clan massacre, I had always thought Itachi was ordered to only kill the leaders of the coup (the elders, his parents) but leave the others alone but it was Obito/Danzo (ROOT) who killed the remainder of the clan. Am I right or I am just taking a fanon thought and believing it to be canon? 

[Bail o' Lies]

Regarding the Uchiha clan massacre, I had always thought Itachi was ordered to only kill the leaders of the coup (the elders, his parents) but leave the others alone but it was Obito/Danzo (ROOT) who killed the remainder of the clan. Am I right or I am just taking a fanon thought and believing it to be canon? 

Could be but if that was the case then Obito killing the rest of clan was part of the deal for training Itachi. But from what I recall it was the entire clan because it wasn't just the clan head (Sasuke's father) that was going through with it but the entire clan. So they were all in on it except for Sasuke.

[Derock]

You know what? I remember the day when the damn chapter of Hinata's suicide confession came out. Most of us in here were pissed off about it but somehow thought that if Masashi Kishimoto had the balls to kill her off then her fans and NH fans will complain to infinity and beyond by treating her as a martyr. Most of us somehow fear if that happen, it will be a damn problem. But you know? I WISHED it would've happen! It will save us later on and possibly change everything for good for the franchise, even if it was cash cow status. I would've take that over this mess any day.

[VanitasDS76491]

You know what? I remember the day when the damn chapter of Hinata's suicide confession came out. Most of us in here were pissed off about it but somehow thought that if Masashi Kishimoto had the balls to kill her off then her fans and NH fans will complain to infinity and beyond by treating her as a martyr. Most of us somehow fear if that happen, it will be a damn problem. But you know? I WISHED it would've happen! It will save us later on and possibly change everything for good for the franchise, even if it was cash cow status. I would've take that over this mess any day.

Agreed but move her death to the war with switching her death with nejis since if she died during the pain arc Nagato would have brought her back with his rinnnenrebirth unless she was still alive but so wounded Sakura couldn't heal her fully when Nagato did his Rebirth justu. Since neji is a better character he deserved to live and change the hyuga clan cause hinata sure as kitten ain't doing it unless Hanabi is the new head which means hyuga was disowned by the hyuga, hey I'll buy it cause hinata is that pathetic.

[Derock]

Agreed but move her death to the war with switching her death with nejis since if she died during the pain arc Nagato would have brought her back with his rinnnenrebirth unless she was still alive but so wounded Sakura couldn't heal her fully when Nagato did his Rebirth justu. Since neji is a better character he deserved to live and change the hyuga clan cause hinata sure as kitten ain't doing it unless Hanabi is the new head which means hyuga was disowned by the hyuga, hey I'll buy it cause hinata is that pathetic.

 

It would've been easier if Hiashi was killed off in the war because he was irrelavant like Inochi, Ibiki and Shikaku (though he had a bit of a role) but no, for some reason, they had Naruto shaken off his faith only for Hinata to "save" him and killed poor Neji off. That was a stupid plot point right there and it was the one that we didn't even consider to be a major blow of the franchise.

[Nostradamus]

I hope you won't think like that about irl people.

 

That wasn't why they were killed anyway. It was because of the coup d'état, which they wouldn't have planned without Tobirama's treatment of them. Lesson is if you treat your friends like enemies they eventually become exactly that.

Actually I do.

 

Yeah I know that Danzo decided to kill them because of the coup, but regardless the fact is that something had to be done about them.

Tobirama treated them right, he understood with what he was dealing with, so he made them into the police force, because he wanted to keep on eye on them. Which was the right move to do in order to supervise them.

Hashirama was too soft and too stupid to understand the dangers that the Uchiha pose. 

 

@nostradamus
Wait are you justified a genocide?
What stop danzou to do the same thing against another clan like say Nara clan because they pose threat to his authority.

Remember that all this reasoning to kill uchiha clan is in order to handwash itachi in order to make him a saint which in turn only hurt the narration.
 

Well just by using the definition for the word genocide, yes and no. Because that doesn't describe the situation at hand.

The simple fact of the matter is something had to be done about the Uchiha's. Even before the whole "Uchiha's love so much that it drives them insane" bs explanation, we saw that the Uchiha's are not friendly towards others and neither innocent. They have no problem harming others to get what they want. Deciding to raise against Konoha, because why? Because they thought that Tobirama made them officers of the law and they didn't like to be supervised, was that really it? So they decided to start a coup and in the process killing who knows how many people, because they want power. So they weren't treated like animals, they were just selfish bastards that couldn't care less about others.

The thing is something needed to be done about them for the greater good of others. Sometimes we have to let go of our humanity in order to save humanity. And if that means killing them, then so be it. And that's just life, whether we like it or not. Sometimes in order to save people, others have to die. In an ideal world, all would live, but the world is not ideal.

 

Killing is bad, yes. But when everything else fails, it has to be done. To quote comrade Stalin "Death is the solution to all problems. No man - no problem". I always wanted to say "comrade Stalin" 

So in this case, yes I'm justifying the genocide of the Uchiha's.

[rocci]

@halfdemoninuyasah
Kick them out will solve the problem, but massacring them don't.
Fear of war? Konoha is not that weak you know.
And it will make itachi still side with konoha. Itachi and jiraiya is enough to defeat them.

Danzo is power hungry and he's never a patriot or nationalist. He's opportunist kitten. What's with let the village burn when they got attack by pain.

Your argument only make konoha as a villain. No good guy massacre no matter how grim the story. This is just a political motive done bad.

Let's face it, all this happen in order to justify itachi murder. Nothing more nothing less. It's like justifying the genocide of killua clan in order to paint spider gang as good guy.

Oh and kaguya clan is mad clan, that's really different thing than emo clan.

[VanitasDS76491]

It would've been easier if Hiashi was killed off in the war because he was irrelavant like Inochi, Ibiki and Shikaku (though he had a bit of a role) but no, for some reason, they had Naruto shaken off his faith only for Hinata to "save" him and killed poor Neji off. That was a stupid plot point right there and it was the one that we didn't even consider to be a major blow of the franchise.

It was a major blow to naruto's character since he dealt with the third hokage and jirayas death well but when neji dies naruto loses his kitten, get kittening real, that's not Naruto. All the hyuga clan aside from neji are irrelevant.

[rocci]

@nostradamus
So it's okay If konoha eleven know the reasoning for massacre and then they disagree with it and get killed because they are threatening konoha establishment in order to maintain peace?
And do you think they will just stop with uchiha?

@vanitas
Yes, hyuga is irrelevant and kishi doesn't rate them high.

Edited by rocci, 28 May 2017 - 10:24 PM.

[VanitasDS76491]

@nostradamus
So it's okay If konoha eleven know the reasoning for massacre and then they disagree with it and get killed because they are threatening konoha establishment in order to maintain peace?
And do you think they will just stop with uchiha?
@vanitas
Yes, hyuga is irrelevant and kishi doesn't rate them high.

Or til naruto uses his mind powers to bend them to his will with forgiving sasuke.
No kishi has a fesith for the Uchiha that's no secret, it that why he pushed hinata to center stage at the end when she did jack kittening kitten in the 700 chapters.

[rocci]

Or til naruto uses his mind powers to bend them to his will with forgiving sasuke.
No kishi has a fesith for the Uchiha that's no secret, it that why he pushed hinata to center stage at the end when she did jack kittening kitten in the 700 chapters.

No, I'm not talking about them to forgive sasuke. I'm talking about a scenario where konoha 11 disagree with konoha policy to get rid of uchiha clan and getting killed because of that. It's an extreme scenario but it doesn't make it right.

I think he push her because she's popular female character and less hate. On top of that kishi decide to make nh canon.

[Nostradamus]

@nostradamus
So it's okay If konoha eleven know the reasoning for massacre and then they disagree with it and get killed because they are threatening konoha establishment in order to maintain peace?
And do you think they will just stop with uchiha?
 

That makes no sense, dude. Your logic is almost always backwards.

How do you get from what I said to this question is beyond me. But, fine.

They can know the reason and disagree with it as much as they want, they need to grow up and understand the world isn't flowers and sunshine. However if they don't understand, and join the Uchiha's, then let them suffer the same fate. Yeah, it's cold. But it has to be done.

Second question, it depends. It would stop for the moment, but if others would plan to do the same and thereby endangering the people of the village and beyond, then it would be done again.

[VanitasDS76491]

No, I'm not talking about them to forgive sasuke. I'm talking about a scenario where konoha 11 disagree with konoha policy to get rid of uchiha clan and getting killed because of that. It's an extreme scenario but it doesn't make it right.
I think he push her because she's popular female character and less hate. On top of that kishi decide to make nh canon.

And that decision kishi made back fired and more like he was forced into doing that.
Ya a dragon I'm saying naruto would say anything to save Sasuke. There's only two Uchiha left in the leaf village and no Sakura doesn't count.

[sushi.]

Actually I do.

 

Yeah I know that Danzo decided to kill them because of the coup, but regardless the fact is that something had to be done about them.

Tobirama treated them right, he understood with what he was dealing with, so he made them into the police force, because he wanted to keep on eye on them. Which was the right move to do in order to supervise them.

Hashirama was too soft and too stupid to understand the dangers that the Uchiha pose. 

 

Well just by using the definition for the word genocide, yes and no. Because that doesn't describe the situation at hand.

The simple fact of the matter is something had to be done about the Uchiha's. Even before the whole "Uchiha's love so much that it drives them insane" bs explanation, we saw that the Uchiha's are not friendly towards others and neither innocent. They have no problem harming others to get what they want. Deciding to raise against Konoha, because why? Because they thought that Tobirama made them officers of the law and they didn't like to be supervised, was that really it? So they decided to start a coup and in the process killing who knows how many people, because they want power. So they weren't treated like animals, they were just selfish bastards that couldn't care less about others.

The thing is something needed to be done about them for the greater good of others. Sometimes we have to let go of our humanity in order to save humanity. And if that means killing them, then so be it. And that's just life, whether we like it or not. Sometimes in order to save people, others have to die. In an ideal world, all would live, but the world is not ideal.

 

Killing is bad, yes. But when everything else fails, it has to be done. To quote comrade Stalin "Death is the solution to all problems. No man - no problem". I always wanted to say "comrade Stalin" 

So in this case, yes I'm justifying the genocide of the Uchiha's.

You just kittening defended genocide by quoting Stalin...?? On a public forum? Is he an everyday dude to you? Your comrade? If you were president would you rule by that quote?

 

(The clan was not a problem in Hashirama's time, after he passed they got pushed out by his successor and started scheming. This was shown clearly in flashbacks, so as far as we know he didn't have to be hard on them. Hashirama might have been too soft if they'd rebelled against him during his regency but this wasn't shown so that's not the lesson here.)

Edited by sushi., 28 May 2017 - 11:28 PM.

[Nostradamus]

You just kittening defended genocide by quoting Stalin...?? On a public forum? Is he an everyday dude to you? Your comrade? If you were president would you rule by that quote?

 

(The clan was not a problem in Hashirama's time, after he passed they got pushed out by his successor and started scheming. This was shown clearly in flashbacks, so as far as we know he didn't have to be hard on them. Hashirama might have been too soft if they'd rebelled against him during his regency but this wasn't shown so that's not the lesson here.)

So what if I did? Who cares who said it? Does it bother you because he was the one that said that or what?

Joseph Goebbels said "If you repeat a lie often, people will believe it". Does that bother you because Goebbels was the one that said that?

Who cares who said it? It doesn't make it any less true.

As for the comrade part, maybe you missed the smiley at the end.

 

Tobirama was not hard on them, he literally gave them power. Did he had an ulterior motive behind his decision? Yes, and a good one.

[Yyubie]

My only questions about Uchiha clan is WHERE ARE THEY when Obito attack the village with Kyubi ?? I remember during that night only Itachi holding baby Sasuke and he said that all the clans and his parents are out of the village and they are on a meeting (I don't know if these meeting is discussing about the coup maybe). But it happen during the attack and it's too good to be coincidence, that's why they are suspected behind the attack because only those with Sharingan can manipulate Kyuubi. And i think Danzo did the right thing here and he DID NOT FORCE Itachi to wipe his clan , he give him a choice.