My understanding of Comic Book Batman is limited. I really can't use it as a comparison point because I don't know if some of the things that look for.
I don't mean to say I think you are insulting me, but were attaching motives to me that you are then declaring illegitimate rather than taking on the substance of the argument.
There is forgiveness and there is punishment. If Naruto wants to forgive him for wrongs against Naruto that is Naruto's choice. At time it feels like Naruto is making calls on behalf of everyone wronged and he has no right to do that. If played realistically, this could be an enormous and very ugly conflict depending on what Naruto's ultimate choice was. He's far more than just Naruto or Konoha's problem.
But forgiving someone for their transgressions does not mean, as tricksie said that they are not expected to pay the piper. There are consequences for doing what he did, forgive or not, he should still have to face those. That is my issue.
I don't care what Obito wants at this stage. It genuinely bothers me that this is even a focal point. As I keep saying, what about everyone else? Why are you only asking about what Obito wants and plans to do? Even if he does, for me, it's too late. If he stolen some money or committed a simple Assault? Yeah, I'd be more interested, but at least then the possibility exists for the victim to be made whole and, more importantly, they still have a life they can live. Obito stole the lives of people who had nothing to do with his tragedy. They, barring a repeat of Pain, doesn't get to do that here. They're dead.
I'm not saying you should be more open minded about other possibilities. It felt like, to me, that you were in essence arguing that his execution is wrong in and of itself, but rather than saying so you said that my reasons for wanting it were wrong there for his execution is wrong. I was wrong in my reading of it, but at the time I thought if you feel that way I think it more honest to simply stake that position rather than skate past it by saying all I wanted was self-satisfaction.
I explained why I think it just and I continue to stand by that.
Agreed, there is merely difference of opinion, so we'll leave it at that. And I apologize for seeming confrontational about your morals, I am impulsive like that sometimes.
I see Obito as having two paths in front of him. Either execution at the hands of an Allied Tribunal or the country which can claim the greatest injury from his actions, or life in prison (again, which is contingent on all nations agreeing to that sentence).
Whether he's forgiven by any parties or he shows any personal remorse has nothing to do with his actions and their consequences. His actions stand alone, and he has to be judged by that.
These are the messy details that undermine Naruto's message of breaking the cycle of hatred (which is why it gets glossed over). And it gets even messier when you realize this is someone who has wreaked havoc all over the shinobi nations, not just in Konoha. So each nation will have it's own standard of justice.
I am not banging the drum for Obito's death, simply because I think he's going to die anyway. It will make things so much easier for Naruto, Konoha and the rest of the world if they can all move on in without first having to come to some agreement on what is the fitting punishment for their generation's Hitler. And Naruto can still walk away having won the fight with minimal blood on his hands.
As a creator, Kishimoto writes himself into a corner by making villainous bad guys, then forcing the reader and the rest of the characters to understand and sympathize with him. And the groundwork has been laid for Madara to be another one of these villain-who-gets-redeemed-even-though-he-shouldn't-be type of characters. Blech.
There are things I like a lot about this manga. But being forced to sympathize with the villains so the plot can move on is not one of them.
This I agree with, although sympathizing with him is fine and all, but it has nothing to do with what is to be done with him just as if you hate him for what he has done to your very core. If he dies then let him die, but not because of his actions but because it is the best thing for the story and for his development as a character. If he remains the same and still would destroy everything for the sake of himself which he justifies for losing Rin, then it would be safe to say killing him is the best course of action. If he chooses to die to do something for the greater good, rather than be killed off as an ever dangerous criminal, that is fine too. That means he's not doing it for the sake of being forgiven but for the sake of what is right regardless of what he deserves or what others think of him. But if he lives, than I rather he lives still be hated and not forgiven, but still does things in his own way for the greater good. I'm not expecting him to be forgiven and every one does "Ring Around the Rosie" under a rainbow, cause that I'd be disgusted with.
But anyways, the way I see it is that while Naruto is sympathizing with his enemies, he's calling them out for their reasoning on it. He wants them to understand the moral of their actions that they are just hating and destroying lives and are justifying it selfishly rather than being honest with themselves. He knows the feelings of hatred, he knows the emptiness of losing loved ones, but he still chooses not to let it consume him even though he could have done so many times in the past. He is rather letting his enemies know the negative consequences of their actions and letting them decide for themselves what they are to do from then on. And will continue to fight for his beliefs if they do not change. Just like with Gaara, remember? Naruto said he understood completely what Gaara is going through but will still kill him if it means protecting his loved ones. With Nagato, Naruto said he could not forgive him, but won't kill him because then he is killing for revenge, not justice. However he did not say that he would not fight/kill Nagato if Nagato continues to force suffering onto people and believes that peace can be achieved that way. And right now, Naruto is asking Obito, is what the latter's actions really what he want? Doe he really not regretting it? If he's doing everything for Rin, is this really what she wanted? Sure Naruto is being soft on them but he's not by all definitions being nice. He wants them to come to terms with their actions, and If they still want to oppose him then I'm sure he'll stop them. It may not be what everyone wants about hey, It's Kishimoto's decision and let's be honest; are Shonen manga not mostly about this fluffy stuff with goodness and love and to not give into hate, etc. It might be childish but it's it's what they're about usually. You would rarely see and shonen manga about moral ambiguity and a gritty/ dark atmosphere. that is more common in seinen manga. I like both, personally speaking.
Edited by Phantom_999, 19 November 2013 - 03:08 PM.
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, i like long analyses on characters especially Sasuke and Sakura :3. I just like reading character's dept and layers , i hope that's okay :3? If its gonna cause too much trouble here PM it to me ,please :3?
