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#221 Kster95

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 11:59 PM

I have a question. Do you guys think the reason why Kakashi neglected Sakura was because she resembles Rin? By putting her out of harm's way, Kakashi wanted to protect her and prevent the same history happening again. 

 

I can think of several instances where Kakashi was neglecting Sakura.

-Even though she was the first one to complete the tree climbing, he didn't teach her anything more while the boys were training.

-He gave Naruto and Sasuke the duty to fight against Haku, while Sakura had to protect Tazuna (basically just standing there and reflecting any projectiles) 

-In the Chuunin Exams, he taught Sasuke, dispatched Ebisu for Naruto, but basically didn't give a thought for Sakura.

-Kakashi saw Sakura's power-up only after the three-year time skip. Didn't he meet/train with her even once? 

-When Sakura and Naruto was talking to Kakashi that they have failed to bring back Sasuke and that he has become too strong, Kakashi told them that he thought of a very effective training. Then he said that the training is only for Naruto. He didn't think of an effective training for Sakura? 

 

I always thought he was a very sorry excuse for a teacher. And the "Sakura wasn't motivated" isn't really a good excuse either. It was shown during the FOD, "please look at my back" and Naruto vs. Neji fight, "when I look at you, I always think that I must try harder" that Sakura was motivated and wanted to become stronger. She just didn't know how, or if she even had the potential. 

 

But reading this whole Obito/Kakashi/Rin history, I can understand if Kakashi connected Sakura with Rin, and wanted to keep Sakura out of the battlefield as much as possible. 

 

 

 

This is kinda possible but I don't think he would be doing it purposely but subconsciously. 


Edited by Kster95, 08 July 2013 - 12:00 AM.

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#222 Gravenimage

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 01:23 PM

We should be expecting spoilers later today since the chapter will be a Tuesday release.


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#223 sushi.

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 04:17 PM

On wednesday, the spoilers come out a couple of hours before the chapter. This should be the case here too.

 

But the chapter itself might come later, because logically colour chapters should take longer to scan. Doesn't it? :headscratch:


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#224 Jake

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 05:02 PM

On wednesday, the spoilers come out a couple of hours before the chapter. This should be the case here too.

 

But the chapter itself might come later, because logically colour chapters should take longer to scan. Doesn't it? :headscratch:

 

The colored chapters was not advertised by WSJ Japan so it is probable something exclusive to western digital releases.


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#225 megi

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 07:49 PM

It is probably right that there will only be color in western digital release ^^ I'm not really familiar with any of those so I asked my brother, who is a follower to these things, and said there hasn't been word of a color release.

 

I really do think it's possible that Kakashi does see Rin in Sakura O_O although I feel like Obito has to verbally (at least for the audience) make the final connection. Kakashi in the first part did see himself as Sasuke...man I wonder about his thoughts going through his head when he saw Sasuke about to kill Sakura...

 

The parallels are here to stay 8.  I think, to make it more personal to Obito to make a Rin=Sakura, healing may only be part of it. The really great moment that I love in the small amount of Obito/Rin we got was when Rin gets Obito to show him the wound he was trying to hide, and she says something like "I'm watching you". That was a flashback that pulled my heartstrings a bit xD. I wonder if Sakura may say something similar and trigger something in Obito? Hehe, it's probably just my fantasy~ 


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#226 Nate River

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 08:49 PM

I have a question. Do you guys think the reason why Kakashi neglected Sakura was because she resembles Rin? By putting her out of harm's way, Kakashi wanted to protect her and prevent the same history happening again.


No.

I think it is author neglect. Nobody (in series) complains, references it, or otherwise acknowledged it happened. Consequently, it's hard to give any hidden meaning to it, especially as it relates to Rin. That is the effective result, but I think the author was trying to do or suggest anyhing by it.

Naruto had an opponent who nearly killed Hinata. Sasuke had an opponent who outright tried to murder Lee (and whom releasing all those Gates did minimal damage). Sakura did not. From Kishimoto's stand point, it's probably that simple.

Kakashi did foist Naruto onto Ebisu, and this is a violation of showing and not telling. Ebisu was stated (and by implication) to be good at what he did. He was a poor match for Naruto and Kakashi deserves criticism for not following up on this. However, Kishimoto gave Ebisu butt-monkey treatement, so readers didn't take him seriously and it comes off worse Kakashi than was probably intended.

Moreover, Sakura is equally at fault. You say it's not a good excuse? You're right, it's not, but you act it as it relives her of the duty to better herself. When Naruto didn't get training, he asked for it. When he was unhappy with what Kakashi gave him he ultimately found his own.

Sakura eventually does this, but not during the chuunin exams. If she is unhappy with where she stand at what point does some of the burden fall on her to do something about it? If anything, they both deserve blame for that. I fact, when she does become unhappy about the gap between her and her teammates she, to her credit, does something about it. But nothing stopped her from doing that before.
 

-Even though she was the first one to complete the tree climbing, he didn't teach her anything more while the boys were training.


Doesn't he have her helping out with the actual mission while they are left behind in the forest (when they would both rather be helping with the mission)? It wasn't a training trip. It was a mission.
 

-He gave Naruto and Sasuke the duty to fight against Haku, while Sakura had to protect Tazuna (basically just standing there and reflecting any projectiles)


So?

You realize the problem with this argument right? It means whoever gets assigned to guard Tazuna is being neglected. So is the only way to not do that is send them all to fight Haku and hope no one gets past their opponent and offs him?

Which time? If it was the last, I recall Naruto jumping into that one all on his own rather than being assigned to do anything.
 

-In the Chuunin Exams, he taught Sasuke, dispatched Ebisu for Naruto, but basically didn't give a thought for Sakura.


He didn't think of Naruto either. Naruto went to him.

Moreover, Sasuke was fighting Gaara. Lee used 6 gates and still didn't do any real damage and even though he was clearly out of it by then Gaara tried to murder him anyway. Moreover, Sasuke was a marked man by another Sociopath.

He should have set something up for Sakura and Naruto (without prompting), but I can kind of understand why Sasuke was the focus here.
 

-Kakashi saw Sakura's power-up only after the three-year time skip. Didn't he meet/train with her even once?


You tell me. Kishimoto has ret-conned from this time period before (Kamui), so I don't think you can assume anything. Moreover, she is recieving personal trainging from the Hokage. If I'm him, I'd check up on her sure, but I'd stay out of it unless otherwise asked by the student or the Hokage. But, how do you know he didn't check up on her?
 

-When Sakura and Naruto was talking to Kakashi that they have failed to bring back Sasuke and that he has become too strong, Kakashi told them that he thought of a very effective training. Then he said that the training is only for Naruto. He didn't think of an effective training for Sakura?


Was she unhappy about it? It's the same thing as before. To the extent it's neglect, I am more inclined to hurl the accusation at the author, because so much of the neglect accusation is by implication. Otherwise, either nobody notices or nobody cares they are being neglected because nobody ever mentions it except for Naruto and Ebisu.

The series never attempts to answer whether he a good teacher or not, so I am relunctant to read much into what you say when nobody in the series seems to give a crap. That apparent apathy tells me that he is not trying to infer neglect at all. And this is especially true of Rin. I can't imagine that the neglect shown through implication is the result of a motiviation that doesn't even get that much of a nod.

And if the series even does try to say he's a good one, then you get a pretty decent example of the difference between showing and telling.

So, no, I don't think they are at all related until such time as the author demonstrates that and the neglect accusation is better reserved for the author than the character.

 

2.) It was said a few chapters ago that team 7 was back. But when it comes to the most important part such as stopping Obito or bringing down the Bijuu, it's not team 7 anymore. It's team Naruto + Sasuke. If team 7 has indeed returned, Sakura should take a part of it instead of standing on top of Katsuyu and being an observer (like she always does). She's basically looking at their backs letting them do the fighting. Chapter 632, "this time we're going back to back" has just disappeared somewhere.


It's not nearly as bad as Team Not Seven, but she seems to suffer from the same problem they do: the author is having trouble finding a consistent role for her in the primary plot. That shouldn't happen with your heroine.

#227 T XD

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 10:22 PM

It is probably right that there will only be color in western digital release ^^ I'm not really familiar with any of those so I asked my brother, who is a follower to these things, and said there hasn't been word of a color release.

 

I really do think it's possible that Kakashi does see Rin in Sakura O_O although I feel like Obito has to verbally (at least for the audience) make the final connection. Kakashi in the first part did see himself as Sasuke...man I wonder about his thoughts going through his head when he saw Sasuke about to kill Sakura...

 

The parallels are here to stay 8.  I think, to make it more personal to Obito to make a Rin=Sakura, healing may only be part of it. The really great moment that I love in the small amount of Obito/Rin we got was when Rin gets Obito to show him the wound he was trying to hide, and she says something like "I'm watching you". That was a flashback that pulled my heartstrings a bit xD. I wonder if Sakura may say something similar and trigger something in Obito? Hehe, it's probably just my fantasy~ 

Bolded, it's really possible. Knowing that Naruto doesn't want to show Sakura that he's hurt or anything, maybe this time too he'll try to hide a wound or something then Sakura knows about it and says something similar to what Rin said.

 

Everything is possible for how to make the Rin and Sakura parallel.


Edited by T XD, 08 July 2013 - 10:24 PM.


#228 Inferno180

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 10:31 PM

Best part about this thread right now? How we are all antipation the new chapter early this week. Normally I spend Monday doing other stuff but now I can have this Tuesday morning to enjoy a new chapter, what will happen! Obviously this chapter should continue the obito as a jinchurki.

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#229 sushi.

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 10:48 PM

I think next chapter will be great, because Obito always brings more action than Madara! :D

 

He wasn't that much of a threat before, he lost the Juubi, everyone knows his weakness and Kakashi is a perfect opponent for him. Now that he has the Juubi, I think he'll kill more people. :3

 

Obito is a bad villain, I admit - but he has done more crap to the main character and shinobi world than any other.


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#230 ramenanmitsu

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 12:01 AM

No.

I think it is author neglect. Nobody (in series) complains, references it, or otherwise acknowledged it happened. Consequently, it's hard to give any hidden meaning to it, especially as it relates to Rin. That is the effective result, but I think the author was trying to do or suggest anyhing by it.

Naruto had an opponent who nearly killed Hinata. Sasuke had an opponent who outright tried to murder Lee (and whom releasing all those Gates did minimal damage). Sakura did not. From Kishimoto's stand point, it's probably that simple.

Kakashi did foist Naruto onto Ebisu, and this is a violation of showing and not telling. Ebisu was stated (and by implication) to be good at what he did. He was a poor match for Naruto and Kakashi deserves criticism for not following up on this. However, Kishimoto gave Ebisu butt-monkey treatement, so readers didn't take him seriously and it comes off worse Kakashi than was probably intended.

Moreover, Sakura is equally at fault. You say it's not a good excuse? You're right, it's not, but you act it as it relives her of the duty to better herself. When Naruto didn't get training, he asked for it. When he was unhappy with what Kakashi gave him he ultimately found his own.

Sakura eventually does this, but not during the chuunin exams. If she is unhappy with where she stand at what point does some of the burden fall on her to do something about it? If anything, they both deserve blame for that. I fact, when she does become unhappy about the gap between her and her teammates she, to her credit, does something about it. But nothing stopped her from doing that before.
 

Doesn't he have her helping out with the actual mission while they are left behind in the forest (when they would both rather be helping with the mission)? It wasn't a training trip. It was a mission.
 

So?

You realize the problem with this argument right? It means whoever gets assigned to guard Tazuna is being neglected. So is the only way to not do that is send them all to fight Haku and hope no one gets past their opponent and offs him?

Which time? If it was the last, I recall Naruto jumping into that one all on his own rather than being assigned to do anything.
 

He didn't think of Naruto either. Naruto went to him.

Moreover, Sasuke was fighting Gaara. Lee used 6 gates and still didn't do any real damage and even though he was clearly out of it by then Gaara tried to murder him anyway. Moreover, Sasuke was a marked man by another Sociopath.

He should have set something up for Sakura and Naruto (without prompting), but I can kind of understand why Sasuke was the focus here.
 

You tell me. Kishimoto has ret-conned from this time period before (Kamui), so I don't think you can assume anything. Moreover, she is recieving personal trainging from the Hokage. If I'm him, I'd check up on her sure, but I'd stay out of it unless otherwise asked by the student or the Hokage. But, how do you know he didn't check up on her?
 

Was she unhappy about it? It's the same thing as before. To the extent it's neglect, I am more inclined to hurl the accusation at the author, because so much of the neglect accusation is by implication. Otherwise, either nobody notices or nobody cares they are being neglected because nobody ever mentions it except for Naruto and Ebisu.

The series never attempts to answer whether he a good teacher or not, so I am relunctant to read much into what you say when nobody in the series seems to give a crap. That apparent apathy tells me that he is not trying to infer neglect at all. And this is especially true of Rin. I can't imagine that the neglect shown through implication is the result of a motiviation that doesn't even get that much of a nod.

And if the series even does try to say he's a good one, then you get a pretty decent example of the difference between showing and telling.

So, no, I don't think they are at all related until such time as the author demonstrates that and the neglect accusation is better reserved for the author than the character.

 

It's not nearly as bad as Team Not Seven, but she seems to suffer from the same problem they do: the author is having trouble finding a consistent role for her in the primary plot. That shouldn't happen with your heroine.

I think you misunderstood my post. I'm not saying Sakura is blameless and not going to argue against it either. But my post was focused solely on Kakashi's motives to teach Sakura. Hence why I left Sakura's part out of it. 

 

And since I'm going to work, I'll reply to it later. 


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#231 sushi.

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 12:39 AM

I think it's either Kakashi's or the author's fault.

 

Naruto and Sasuke simply wanted to get strong. Sakura needed a drive before she got determined to get strong. When Naruto couldn't bring Sasuke back, I'm sure she would want to participate in the quest and protect Naruto(it was probably not fun to see her all bandaged up for her sake). Tsunade returned to Konoha at the same time, it was the perfect time for Kishi to give Sakura a role.

 

--

Anyways, I wonder what is necessary for the moon eye plan to work? Maybe now that Obito has the stamina, he can perform it? It must take a lot of chakra to cast the jutsu on the entire alliance. And then it proves that Obito has not abandoned his original plan, because I hope he is not as inconsistent as he looks like.


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#232 TouKen4Life3g

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 12:50 AM

Yeah, now I think about it, exactly, how do you activate it? Does it take time or can he do right now? I feel like once do it, it's game over, isn't it?

#233 Inferno180

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 01:32 AM

Yeah, now I think about it, exactly, how do you activate it? Does it take time or can he do right now? I feel like once do it, it's game over, isn't it?

 

The eye of the moon plan is still on, all that was required was one becoming the ten tails jinchurki. Both Madara and Obito hold the rinnegan to fulfill that requirement. However Obito managed to defy Madara and use the rinne tensei on himself to become the ten tails jinchurki.

 

So how will the eye of the moon plan start? Well there are only 2 ways it can go:

1. Obito simply uses the power himself and puts the world under the genjutsu/

2. Madara controls obito and uses it, if he was able to make Naruto suffer when first summoned to see where kurama was, he can do the same to Obito. Obito may still be Madara's tool, we need to wait and see.

 

However it still will take time, plus we don't know Obito's condition fully, such as is he able to contain such power or could something unforeseen go wrong? The good news is, its a human sized fight now, so team 7, the edo kage, and current hokage, plus bee can all join in on the fight, I kinda feel is going to be a steamroll fest for Obito though, kinda like in Bleach when Aizen got the hyuogku in himself and just trolled everyone in his way. A lot is about to come underway.



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#234 TouKen4Life3g

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 01:36 AM

 
The eye of the moon plan is still on, all that was required was one becoming the ten tails jinchurki. Both Madara and Obito hold the rinnegan to fulfill that requirement. However Obito managed to defy Madara and use the rinne tensei on himself to become the ten tails jinchurki.
 
So how will the eye of the moon plan start? Well there are only 2 ways it can go:
1. Obito simply uses the power himself and puts the world under the genjutsu/
2. Madara controls obito and uses it, if he was able to make Naruto suffer when first summoned to see where kurama was, he can do the same to Obito. Obito may still be Madara's tool, we need to wait and see.
 
However it still will take time, plus we don't know Obito's condition fully, such as is he able to contain such power or could something unforeseen go wrong? The good news is, its a human sized fight now, so team 7, the edo kage, and current hokage, plus bee can all join in on the fight, I kinda feel is going to be a steamroll fest for Obito though, kinda like in Bleach when Aizen got the hyuogku in himself and just trolled everyone in his way. A lot is about to come underway.

Well first, we need to know what Obito can do now? Can he sends clone from his other half? Many possibilities are growing and we can only wait for it.

#235 Kakashi-Sensei

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 02:09 AM

Just want to be sure , there is a Chapter tomorrow ?


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#236 Nate River

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 02:09 AM

I think it's either Kakashi's or the author's fault.


I blame Kishimoto to the extent I blame anyone. It's the same as Hinata. If you look at Hinata through as certain lense you can argue that she is exceeding selfish, but it's really hard to make the case that the author is trying to do this. You would have to believe despite all the "positive" treatment and the way people behave around her, that he is secretly dumping on her. It's hard to believe. It's simply the result of being a satellite character. Absent more consistent and direct portrayal this way, I will not agree with that argument.

The same is true is Kakashi. I think you can criticize Kakashi for pawning Naruto on Ebisu because he did do that and Naruto was openly upset by that. But outside of that, when have people been pissed for no receiving adequate training from him? They don't. If they don't feel neglected then hard to say Kakashi is that kind of teacher. Either that or he failed them badly and his students are too dense or too nice to see it. Just like Hinata, neglect would be more implied than shown, and I don't think Kishimoto is secretly dumping on him either. They get the focus (from the story) because they are the ones about to fight.

Look at it from a story construction standpoint. During the chuunin exams what were Naruto and Sasuke training for? Neji and Gaara. As I said, two people who tried to kill their previous opponents. Sakura had nothing specific to train for. So he's going to spend page space at the expense of the others to train for...what? Naruto inspires her, but nothing suggests she perceives herself as behind Naruto at that point. So what's the purpose? You could have something like the POAL moment here, but I think it was for more effective when it happened. That gap was driven home when Naruto got the crap beaten out of him on her behalf. She also learned how to dispel the genjustu....that was taught to her at some point, albiet off screen. If fact all her training has been off screen.

As a character, he is far more than just the guy who teaches stuff. He lost most of that role in the Chuunin exams. After he lined up a lot of the basics of what a ninja is for the audience, Kishimoto didn't focus on the teacher role to nearly the same degree except when he wanted to impart a character specific power-ups. The more mundane stuff didn't last past the second Arc.

So, as before, if Sakura doesn't feel he sucked or neglected him...then it's hard for me to sit here and say he, as a character, did this. The author could have done much more with her and did not. He could have gone the neglect route and calling him a crappy teacher would be on firmer ground. He could have set her up for even basic stuff and shown an attentive teacher and he never did.

I try to avoid the inference of negative characterizations when no in the series picks up on it. To me it says more about the author than the character. I think he has struggled to keep her consistently relevant, particularly in Part 2.
 

Naruto and Sasuke simply wanted to get strong. Sakura needed a drive before she got determined to get strong. When Naruto couldn't bring Sasuke back, I'm sure she would want to participate in the quest and protect Naruto(it was probably not fun to see her all bandaged up for her sake). Tsunade returned to Konoha at the same time, it was the perfect time for Kishi to give Sakura a role.


I don't think it was drive per se. Sakura became a ninja for the wrong reasons. I think her negative perception of Naruto led her to believe he sucked as a ninja (which he did). I think Naruto possessed more ability that thought (everyone made this mistake) and he improved faster than her opinion did. Did she want to be a great ninja in the beginning? I don't think so. It feels more like she wanted to be good enough for Sasuke to pay attention, whatever that was. So, it's no surprise she doesn't see a huge gap between them and did not seek improvement the way her teammates did. They wanted to be great ninja to accomplish their much more focused and defined ends. I think the first two arcs help shed some of that because being a ninja started going beyond just Sasuke. At the end of part one, I think is when she finally found her purpose for wanting to be strong.
 

Just want to be sure , there is a Chapter tomorrow ?


Nope.

I took the draft. I ran out of toliet paper.

Sorry, guys.

:)

#237 LivinG_Dead

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 02:20 AM

Just want to be sure , there is a Chapter tomorrow ?

Today.

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                                                                                                                                                I ship Conan and Ai. :love:


#238 TouKen4Life3g

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 02:22 AM

How long was that ago? I may just wait for it.



#239 Hiraishin

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 02:24 AM

Nope.

I took the draft. I ran out of toliet paper.

Sorry, guys.

:)

Ha.

Here's this week's preview, if anyone's interested:

"Finally, 10b awakens! Is there anything can be done against its power!?"

Pretty obvious tbh. We'll just have to wait until spoilers come out.

Today.
KGWgylf.png

Nice! We should be getting it in a few hours, then.

Edited by mydearbeloved, 09 July 2013 - 02:26 AM.

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#240 arian_rad

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 02:48 AM

Today.
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Finally a somewhat early chapter! I don't have to stay up until 5 :')




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