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[xxRomanceGirlxx]

Early chapter this week. That was unexpected.


My thoughts on this chapter was ... I absolutely loved it. xD It was very informative and intriguing to read. And Hashirama ... the most hilarious shock of this chapter. I thought he was completely different than that: calm, serious, but really nice as a person. I kinda pegged him a Minato-type, actually. Wow, am I so glad to be wrong lol. Turns out he's over-cheerful, laid-back, and has a child-like personality. Immediately, I was like "Wow. He's just like Naruto. I love his character so much already." And now I get to say Naruto will probably always be that immature and unserious for the rest of his life. I'm so glad for that, Naruto just wouldn't be Naruto if he was all serious and collected. Just ... his expressions. Now we also know how Tsunade got her bad gambler habit from ... you're such a good influencer, Hashirama XD. I laughed the hardest at that Tsunade panel with the money. Pure gold that was.

And Tobirama ... I'm not that surprised by his personality. It was pretty much what I expected of him. Lol at him putting Hashirama in his place so easily despite being younger. . He's the polar opposite of his brother: calculating, logical, predjudiced, and also aroggant/stubborn of his opinions. Reminds me of Danzo a lot actually, though I don't despise the 2nd with every fiber of my being like I do with him. Though I do still wonder why he invented the Edo Tensei ...

And Minato ... he was absolutely adorable in this, even though he didn't talk much. Can't wait to see more of him next chapter.

And now the big whammy: Truth behind the Uchiha 2.0. I was stunned by that explanation, I never expected that. The Uchiha Clan are the way they are genetically. It can't be helped, it's just how it is. So basically, the gist of it is the the Uchiha Clan love so much that when they lose what they love, they can never face reality and end up turning that former love into hatred. Honestly, it makes a lot of sense. Hate is only created through a deep, attachment to something and if you love something so intensely only to lose it or be betrayed, there comes hatred. It explains why a lot of the Uchiha are the way they are and honestly, it's kind of ironic. I mean, who would've thought the arrogant, collected, power-driven, composed Uchiha members are in actuality the most vulnerable and sentimental? It looks like all of those traits they keep up is shell so they can protect themselves. Sasuke's been doing that ever since his Clan got massacred and it really hasn't gone away. And my exact thought when I read this was how much more sense it made for Obito to turn out this way. He was different than the other Uchihas, but he still had that genetic trait of hyper-sensitivity and fear of loss. When he loved, he loved deep. Seeing Rin get killed before his eyes by a close friend he thought would protect her was a double impact. That's why he pretty much became insane over the death of a girl he loved to that extent. I don't think anyone can fully blame Obito or bash him for becoming a timebomb over a girl when it's because of the Clan he was born in. And honestly, this was actually foreshadowed during the Kage Summit. Naruto said back then: "The problem with Sasuke is, he loved his Clan too much. That's why it's hard for him to forgive." Should've realized it beforehand.

And now Sasuke ... not surprised at all by his reactions. I already anticipated him doing this. He was feeling countless emotions: confusion, shock, anger, and a whole bunch of other stuff. Tobirama especially pissed him off when he said his Clan was doomed from the start and possessed by evil. Still, gotta give him props for saying that so bluntly to an unstable, emo Uchiha . I knew for a fact Sasuke would react with anger in some ways, extreme anger. His pride and love for his Clan is still there, it hasn't disappeared. The 2nd was too predjudiced and honest for his liking. But I have to say, I really liked his talk with the Third. I'm sure Sarutobi always cared for Sasuke and because he was against the Uchiha being eliminated, I can say for a fact that Sasuke probably hates him the least. I also noticed something. Despite all of his anger and fury, everytime the Uchiha rebellion is brought up, it's confirmed. Obito said it, Danzo said, and even Itachi himself confirmed it. Yet somehow everytime Sasuke acts like he struggles to believe it. Just "So it's true, after all." And I really felt bad for him when he had that depressed, pained expression when it was mentioned again, I actually wanted to hug him. Haven't wanted the desire to that in a while lol.

Though there is one thing about this that annoys me. Instead of writing the Uchiha Clan to be unforgiving, selfish bastards ... he makes up a genetic disease triggered in them to make them look like "victims". Make us excuse their actions and feel sorry for them. I was okay with Sasuke being the victim of war and hatred, but now you add a disease to make him even less responsible for his actions? That seriously bothers me. It's like Kishi is saying "I want the Uchiha to be pitied, not hated! Look at their genetic instability, everyone! You can't blame them now. It's not their fault!" It's just ... ugh, could you be any more obvious with this Uchiha favoritism? Nagato or any other evil villain are responsible for their actions more than the Uchiha? I really hate that. I may be a Sasuke fan but I'd prefer Kishimoto to hold him 100% responsible for his actions, not make up some lame excuse like genetic triggers or whatever. It makes his redemption less satisfying or enjoyable for me, especially since Kishimoto has effectively shielded Sasuke from the blame he should deserve. Same with Madara, same with Obito.

Speaking of Sasuke, I'm still sticking to my theory I made about his resolve last chapter. He'll be very angry and confused by all of this, once again somewhat questioning his resolve but then pushing it aside and saying he'll still destroy Konoha. I doubt he'll get worse, but it's not gonna be an amazing improvement this early that's for sure. Naruto still needs to be the one to fully change his mind. I say this because I wonder why Hashirama and Minato were the last to say anything. Sure, Sasuke looks pissed again but I'm getting this feeling that those two will be the game changing pieces. Hashirama with his easy-goingness and Naruto-like philosophy and Minato with his reason and the truth behind the Kyuubi attack. I don't see this "turn to the worse", I see something a little bit more positive than that.

We'll see if I'm right next chapter.

Edited by xxRomanceGirlxx, 06 February 2013 - 07:34 AM.

[Codus N]

Well said.... well said. I'd like to see something like that happen as well. Team Minato reunion ftw.

Y'know, I just had a thought.... what if the Alliance learns of their past and decide that Rin is the only one who can stop this once and for all and turn the tide into their favor?? the Zetsus being used as ET sacrifices just gave me an idea. What if Black Zetsu is still alive and simply being captured?? They could probably use him for ET'ing Rin. I get the feeling Kakashi's friends will do this behind his back.

leave and create his own, which I can see happening.

Wow, that's a good idea. I didn't think of that. You're right. Perhaps the question regarding Shinobi and villages might lead Sasuke to lead Oto or create a new village.

I don't think Tobirama's really prejudiced towards the Uchiha. He knows what they're capable of and had no idea what to do with them, so he tried to adopt a firm hand to try and guide their...passions? while trying to make sure they don't do too much damage to the rest of Konoha.


Fear leads to Anger, Anger leads to Hate...leads to Suffering. <- Pretty much the entire mind-set of the Uchiha.

Yeah, Tobirama had the best of intentions at heart, but the means he used was wrong. But if you really consider the era they were in, his decisions was the best and most logical option they had at the time.

To which I can say the following: If you notice in this chapter, he doesn't get goofy until he finds out about Minato. In fact, you can see that his expression is at first a calm and collected one. I could go as far as to say that when he says "what do you mean?" to his brother, he is still being calm. Plus as far as I've seen, he's always respectful towards the Third.

Here is something even more interesting: he repeats the same line in both chapters - "The world is always fighting"

EDIT: Your edits are making this difficult XD

Anyway, on the contrary, I feel like this is what indicates that he is still the same Hashirama, since he regrets this on both occasions.

Yup. Pretty much agree.

I should've seen it coming, though. Hashirama's Element is Wood and Life, characters that're associated with nature are often vigorous, free spirited, or full of life. Tobirama uses Water, people who are affiliated with that element are usually calm and collected.

Of course, we didn't think we'd see them again, did we?

Hey, good catch!!

This is Needed --Click here to view--

Or this:

* --Click here to view--

Heh, nice one.

[merryGOflava]

so the uchiha are a loving clan? idk guys..it made me chuckle

[T XD]

Well, who knew that the next thing we know, their hatred is linked with lovey dovey stuff XD

It's clear that they are characterized to be complicated people. *shrugs*

Edited by T XD, 06 February 2013 - 02:12 PM.

[PhenixElite]

I still dont understand why people complain about the "love" thing so much.
Can someone tell the problem with it?

Edited by PhenixElite, 06 February 2013 - 02:42 PM.

[avengeme]

after sasuke finishes talking to all the hokage he better not just release the jutsu. i want to see the hokage get involved in the war(lol madara is in for a lot of pain when hashirama finds out he beat up tsunade) and naruto meet his dad(someone needs to edo-tensei kushina so we can have a full namikaze family reunion). i'm not so worried about sasuke right now as im sure him and naruto will fight eventually and sasuke will see the error of his ways and then make me happy by then lettign himslef die. my main concern is what is orochimaru going to do cause i cant see him turning into some good guy and helping anyone wihtout some selfish evil alterior motif.

[avengeme]

I still dont understand why people complain about the "love" thing so much.
Can someone tell the problem with it?

i think the main problem is it comes as a shock to many people. also alot of people have spent a long time dislike sasuke and the entire uchiha clan then to suddenly be told we shouldnt hate them but pity them becuae they cant control their feelings due to some gentic mess is going to take some time to settle in people are complaining now because they havent accpeted this new reveltion about the uchiha but in a chapter or two will accept it and move on and find something new to complain about

[PhenixElite]

i think the main problem is it comes as a shock to many people. also alot of people have spent a long time dislike sasuke and the entire uchiha clan then to suddenly be told we shouldnt hate them but pity them becuae they cant control their feelings due to some gentic mess is going to take some time to settle in people are complaining now because they havent accpeted this new reveltion about the uchiha but in a chapter or two will accept it and move on and find something new to complain about

Sad enough
The love thing still doesnt change the things sasuke has done, nor is it a reason to forgive him. So in the end there was nothing what changed the story. All in all it just showed how obito was able to become that crazy by loosing a loved one.
But as said, this is still NO excuse for what sasuke and obito did.

I mean imagine someone sayin to sasuke: "its okay that you killed many people and tried to kill your own teammates just because you lost your brother.

Edited by PhenixElite, 06 February 2013 - 03:27 PM.

[kirabook]

I still can't find it in my heart to like or feel any pity for Sasuke whatsoever. Maybe I'm unreasonable, but in this case, I don't have a problem with that.

I was already sympathetic to Obito (I still think his actions are unforgivable though, killing of Naruto's family like that), and now his actions just seem to make a lot more sense than it did before. If he were a normal person, maybe he wouldn't have gone so crazy, but he's not. He's an Uchiha, predestined to go nuts if anything to traumatic happens to them. (Yet still.... I have this deep hatred for Sasuke XD)

[Nefertieh]

Sad enough
The love thing still doesnt change the things sasuke has done, nor is it a reason to forgive him. So in the end there was nothing what changed the story. All in all it just showed how obito was able to become that crazy by loosing a loved one.
But as said, this is still NO excuse for what sasuke and obito did.

I mean imagine someone sayin to sasuke: "its okay that you killed many people and tried to kill your own teammates just because you lost your brother.

Except it does. In real life, for example, a person with a mental illness would get a lesser sentencing than a person without one. The "Uchiha gene" we're concerned about may not change Sasuke's crimes, but it does absolve him of his guilt.

Essentially, the fandom is stuck between a rock and a hard place. If you don't forgive "genetic victim" Sasuke, it would seem cruel. If you forgive Sasuke, then Naruto's role in the story is up in the air, and Sasuke himself wouldn't need to do anything to redeem himself.

Lastly, the whole 180° idea seems to be rather fanfic-y to some people. I would certainly laugh at it if I read it in a fanfic.

Edited by Nefertieh, 06 February 2013 - 03:57 PM.

[PhenixElite]

Except it does. In real life, for example, a person with a mental illness would get a lesser sentencing than a person without one. The "Uchiha gene" we're concerned about may not change Sasuke's crimes, but it does absolve him of his guilt.

Essentially, the fandom is stuck between a rock and a hard place. If you don't forgive "genetic victim" Sasuke, it would seem cruel. If you forgive Sasuke, then Naruto's role in the story is up in the air, and Sasuke himself wouldn't need to do anything to redeem himself.

Lastly, the whole 180° idea seems to be rather fanfic-y to some people. I would certainly laugh at it if I read it in a fanfic.

No it doesnt absolve him of his guilt. Not even in real life, if someone whos crazy kills someone else he still gets in prison, yeah some special sort of prison but all in all its no big difference.
I mean would you just forgive an insane guy who killed someone? I guess not.
Personally i dont believe that kishis pupose with this scene was that the readers forgive sasuke for what he has done. His acting now just seems a little bit more logical.

Edited by PhenixElite, 06 February 2013 - 04:21 PM.

[Nefertieh]

No i doesnt absolve him of his guilt. Not even in real life, if someone whos crazy kills someone else he still gets in prison, yeah some special sort of prison but all in all its no big difference.
I mean would you just forgive an insane guy who killed someone? I guess not.
Personally i dont believe that kishis pupose with this scene was that the readers forgive sasuke for what he has done. His acting now just seems a little bit more logical.

In real life, the punishment may be lessened, but only because a person with a mental illness/ predisposition is considered not completely responsible of his or her own actions. Depending on the country, it could mean everything, especially if capital punishment is on the table.

Would you forgive a blind man for stepping on your toes? In the end it doesn't matter if you choose to forgive Sasuke or not; like I said, the fandom is stuck between a rock and a hard place, and while not everyone in the fandom will forgive him, there will be a lot of people who will.

On the contrary, I can't think of a greater purpose of this new "Uchiha gene" that would serve any other purpose other than make Sasuke more of a victim. It was already established that Obito was coerced by Madara and emotionally shattered by the death of his crush, at the hands of his best friend. Madara's motives were already known -- he betrayed by his own clan and had a grudge. Moreover; for the whole theory to work, we would have to assume that Itachi didn't care for anybody in his clan except Sasuke.

Edited by Nefertieh, 06 February 2013 - 04:33 PM.

[PhenixElite]

In real life, the punishment may be lessened, but only because a person with a mental illness/ predisposition is considered not completely responsible of his or her own actions. Depending on the country, it could mean everything, especially if capital punishment is on the table.

Would you forgive a blind man for stepping on your toes? In the end it doesn't matter if you choose to forgive Sasuke or not; like I said, the fandom is stuck between a rock and a hard place, and while not everyone in the fandom will forgive him, there will be a lot of people who will.

On the contrary, I can't think of a greater purpose of this new "Uchiha gene" that would serve any other purpose other than make Sasuke more of a victim. It was already established that Obito was coerced by Madara and emotionally shattered by the death of his crush, at the hands of his best friend. Madara's motives were already known -- he betrayed by his own clan and had a grudge. Moreover; for the whole theory to work, we would have to assume that Itachi didn't care for anybody in his clan except Sasuke.

Whats the purpose of showing sasuke as a victim? It makes no sense. It sounds like you want to say that kishi did this to show that everything sasuke has done can be forgotten and if he comes back it will be like before he left the village.
Lets see, something like that would be another reason for me to drop the manga.

Yeah lets just forgive all the uchias because of their mental illness.
Nah, if that really was kishis intention, then i dont know what other BS is going to happen in this story.

[Don-kun]

I hear this in NF now I'm hearing it here, the Uchihas don't have a mental problem they only love too much and at the same time could a double edge sword for them because of some special reaction they have when losing a love one, the Uchiha brain feeds their eyes with a special chakra that affect their eyes creating the Sharingan.
Loving too much is not a special condition and the Sharingan is just like the Supper Saiyan Power, the reaction a Saiyan have when the body is consumed with so much stress of losing someone important to them is the same of the Uchihas, we wound't not see this reaction with anyone else because they don't have these powers.

Tobirama was trying to explain the reader the source of the Uchihas power not that the Uchihas are mentally ill people.

Edited by Don-kun, 06 February 2013 - 05:26 PM.

[kirabook]

The point is their power is a mental condition. If another ninja suffers the same loss, they won't suddenly awaken the sharingan and apparently evolve as a person. Normal peoples brains aren't built to require so much stress and hatred to become better stronger ninja.

[Don-kun]

Tobirama said that the Sharingan kept evolving with the hatred they keep creating in their heart, after the lost a love one, or their desire to get revenge on the person who take away their love one, in other words the Uchihas are a bunch of whiners who refuse to accept reality or move on while keep relaying on the hatred in their heart.

That ins't a mental condition, is a problem they refuse to fix.

[tricksie]

@don-kun, no worries. sorry I snapped at you. Yours was just the last response in a long line of posts that was completely not what I was saying. It was very frustrating because I had written a lot more in the original post, when I really didn't have the time to do it, then felt like I was getting blasted for something that was cherry-picked and distorted. Anyway, yesterday was an extraordinarily stressful day - sorry you caught the brunt of it.

@kirabook,

@zacra, I get what you're saying about Hashirama's odd behavior. I think all of them are acting ooc, actually. Why aren't they questioning Orochimaru and these other people they don't know at all? Why aren't they at least making it difficult for them? If the four kages had been edo tensei'd wouldn't they automatically assume that the people doing it were enemies of the state?

But they don't ask anything about the village. They don't stonewall or try and discover what the motives of these people are so they might be able to answer in a way that helps the villagers. Nope. They just answer questions.

I had the same feeling reading this chapter as I did in 615, that I wasn't sure what I was reading. It just seems so far-fetched and fan-ficcy that I can't even wrap my head around it all. And honestly, I don't want to. The answers don't make sense.

[TouKen4Life3g]

Well one thing for sure is that it does confirm that Sasuke cared about his teams and Itachi in the long road. I do think saying that Sasuke's love for Itachi isn't strong as Madara indicated that Naruto could be the one that's actually stronger for Sasuke. Think about it, he cared that he was getting stronger than him, cared about him enough to risk his own life against Haku, always changed his mind when Naruto does a small pep talk with him like killing him or destroying Konoha right away. Not to mention that he was able to talk to Naruto in a real conversation, unlike Sakura. Kakashi is an exception because they can relate and he wanted to tell Kakashi that he's wrong. When Naruto shows up, he got his full intention. Heck, even Itachi changed to see that there's hope within Naruto, which is why he doesn't act like an a-hole if you remember the flashback hating the Uchiha. It was said that his mind was corrupted because of war, but I feel that Naruto shed some light in him.

In short, Naruto is the auto-changer to all. He doesn't change, but you surely will.

[sushi.]

What I don't like about this whole emotion thing is that it seems that if you are an Uchiha, the possibility of a coming mental illness increases. Why? What's the purpose? What is Kishi trying to say? It also looks like there is no way around it. Maybe you can fight it, but only if you're not bound to your clan? If anything, this goes against what Kishi told us in the past. That you can fight destiny. Unless you're an Uchiha. ( )

Oh, I forgot something. XD Apparently, Naruto(child of prophecy) is destined to be good, and Sasuke(Uchiha) is destined to be evil. Ouch. I wish there was a choice. I know it's not that simple, but I wish there was more of a choice. This damn destiny..

Edited by sushi., 06 February 2013 - 09:05 PM.

[Nate River]

@don-kun, no worries. sorry I snapped at you. Yours was just the last response in a long line of posts that was completely not what I was saying. It was very frustrating because I had written a lot more in the original post, when I really didn't have the time to do it, then felt like I was getting blasted for something that was cherry-picked and distorted. Anyway, yesterday was an extraordinarily stressful day - sorry you caught the brunt of it.

@kirabook,

@zacra, I get what you're saying about Hashirama's odd behavior. I think all of them are acting ooc, actually. Why aren't they questioning Orochimaru and these other people they don't know at all? Why aren't they at least making it difficult for them? If the four kages had been edo tensei'd wouldn't they automatically assume that the people doing it were enemies of the state?

But they don't ask anything about the village. They don't stonewall or try and discover what the motives of these people are so they might be able to answer in a way that helps the villagers. Nope. They just answer questions.

I had the same feeling reading this chapter as I did in 615, that I wasn't sure what I was reading. It just seems so far-fetched and fan-ficcy that I can't even wrap my head around it all. And honestly, I don't want to. The answers don't make sense.

I've tried twice to respond to your original post and not been happy with either attempt, let's see if I can do better.

I agree with your basic point and I am equally let down by the fact that four of Konoha's finest were rescued from the Death God and resurrected for THIS?! An expose about how the Uchiha love too much and seem predisposed as a group for this type of behavior. For me, there is little that frustrates me more than author's writing in plot devices that absolve, softens, or removes responsibility or culpability from bad actors. It would be on thing if he were setting up a scenario where he wanted to looked deep into genuine mental illness issues, but this isn't that. This is a naked attempt to move a clan that generally been portrayed as evil and move them into gray territory: to say these are not inherently bad people (I don't people thought that anyway), but good people predisposed to more extreme reactions when bad stuff happens to them, which explains why they kill everything in sight when it all goes to hell.

I think it's a preemptive strike to try and justify Sasuke's later treatment, particularly any redemption (and any actions associated with it) he receives later on down the line. I think this is the predominant purpose of this. It also gives him chance to expand on the power of love, generally. In short, tow show that people like Danzou and the second are wrong. It has the added benefit of pilling on his earlier retconning of how Sasuke awakened his eyes.

It's frustrating because we had seen this with Itachi, Shisui, and pre-massacre Sasuke. This isn't really needed to show that they are not pure evil, and I cannot overstate how I despise the partial shift in responsibility here. I don't think it's intended as a complete absolving, but he's trying to move away from "it's all their own fault."

I'm reminded of an old Family Guy episode where Peter explains his obsessive controlling behavior by stating he just "loves too much." This stinks of that. I suppose we could make the claim that this means he cannot be allowed to be in a pairing because who knows what great calamity the world will face if it doesn't work out. Of course, it seems obvious to me Sasuke will prove to be the one who overcomes it, which is how I agree with your argument that this could used as an avenue for SS. It's not something unique to that or SK or even the Naru-Sasu relationship, but it is rather convenient that a guy so full of hate is only so because he was so full of love before. As for the spulation that this hints at SK, I'd rather hope not because something like this making it's way to that relationship it nauseating.

I'm bummed because I was interested in this despite the cheap plot device used in the last chapter and the one that began this plot thread, but he just pilled on the cheap devices.

Yeah, and I'm a bit confused as to why they would provide these kind of answers (and why the first would screw around) in front of the guy that made the first two fight the third and then later kill the third AND who used the fourth's tools to bring them all back again. The third his objective for many years was to lay waste to what they worked so hard to create, but let's forget about that. Of course the info they provided so far is so lame...that it's really...who cares if they know?