Do they? The Konoha 11 collectively decided he need to die prior to the Kage summit. I don't recall Kishimoto revisiting the issue since, though I can guess what the response would be. Something along the lines of "we don't like it, but we believe in Naruto" and they will follow to him. Everyone appears to be falling in line behind him (the Kages, including Tsuki, are already doing that; Sakura did it). We know what they thought collectively and Shikamaru specifically, but we don't know individual members because Kishimoto doesn't really do down the line an say.
Neutral, I don't know. It seems a hard thing not to have a strong opinion on. I think ultimately, that their faith in Naruto will override their doubt in Sasuke.
Objective vs Subjective. Objectively, you are trained as a soldier to eliminate any threat to your land. Subjectively, is a different matter and some rather not think in that way and hide behind their "job."
Do they really want Sasuke to die based on what they feel or what they have been taught? Do any of the Konoha 11 want Sasuke to die simply because they hate him? No, they see him as would they see any other enemy because that is what they have been trained to do. Kill any threats to the village. Ino for example started crying at the thought of Sasuke being the criminal. Does that sound like she wants him to die? No, and the subjective reason IS them putting their beliefs in Naruto. Otherwise they would just follow the job.
It is the very reason why Danzo made Sai not have emotional attachment to anything. He needed him to do the job he was trained for and emotions get in the way of that.
The neutrality is in their emotions. I should have specified that. It is that not all of them truly understand what Naruto and Sakura are going through. So they leave it to Naruto to make the choice. Naruto is their friend. So what comes first, their job or their friend? Especially when your job is to kill your friend's best friend.
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It's neither. He will never directly assault Konoha the way Nagato did. He can't...well, he can't without massively complicating what I think he is trying to do. At some point, it will be impossible to believe that the universe around Naruto is not saying "Sasuke must die." They can defer to Naruto, but there's a limit to this before every character's (and author) credibility is blown to hell.
But why not attack Konoha now when everyone is at war? Seems like a perfect time to strike to me. Especially for someone that is supposed to be a ninja. He doesn't have to attack it straight forward like Nagato and since all the fighting soldiers are at war, who is going to stop him? How is Itachi able to dispatch the entire Uchiha clan, but Sasuke can't take out Konoha? Come on, ninja. Sneak in and kill everyone while the main army is distracted. Sasuke has the skill to do it. So why not? Because the plot forces him not to. That's not apart of the author's plan even though he could easily do so.
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I think if he does that he goes past the moral event horizon because he has assaulted innocents (and non-ninja personal to boot) that have close connections to the hero (nameless Samurai don't count because nobody of relevance cares about them). What kind of hero can let go a man that harms the people the hero is supposed to protect?
Ah ha, see, this is what is so complicated and so stupid about this. You say this: Sasuke can not be evil because it would make Naruto look stupid, but then you say this:
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Naruto v.Sasuke is an important reason why, but there is a bigger one. The justification for Naruto's journey completely dissolves if Sasuke ceases to be a threat. If Sasuke is not a threat to what Naruto values and stands for what basis then Naruto's desire selfish because it is now him wanting to force his friend back because HE wants it, regardless of what Sasuke thinks. Sasuke must remain a threat and he must remain on the wrong path. Otherwise, Naruto is no hero and there is nothing noble in what he's doing.
Do you see where the contradiction is? How can Sasuke be a threat to Naruto's morality and values AND not be that villain that challenges that? That's impossible. You can't be a threat to a good guy, but not do anything evil. Villains were created to challenge the hero by forcing him to look at things from a different view. If Sasuke does nothing to force his corrupted views, but just spewing empty threats, then what is the point? And again, why should the fight even occur in the first place if Sasuke is not allowed to go all the way with his plan?
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It'd be like, c'mon Naruto what does he have to do before you decide he should died? Of course, that could have been said about Nagato, but then resurrection no jutsu solved that problem.
Do you want Naruto to be the Hero or to be stupid? Heroes are stupid, but noble. It's like the whole Joker syndrome where Batman cannot kill the Joker even though he kills people every time he gets out, which some people see Batman as being stupid. It's because he won't kill him is why Batman is the hero and Joker is the villain.
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Kishimoto's approach to this redemption/cycle of hate deal has been pretty simplistic with more black and white and less grey. Successfully attacking Konoha makes it very grey and Naruto will have a lot of explaining to do if he lets him go after that.
Simple yes, but he hasn't applied the simplicity to Sasuke otherwise Sasuke would have attacked the village a long time ago. Sasuke is always gray and always has been the gray area in Naruto's life.
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So, I don't think he'll ever do it.
Then Sasuke is the worst villain ever created in my book. Sorry, that's how I feel. If Sasuke is all talk and no walk, then he is a terrible villain. Love the Naruto story, but Sasuke is still the worst villain.
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I think Sasuke is seeking a way that he can have his revenge without taking a complete crap all over what Itachi tried to do. I don't think that's possible.
I don't think so. If he didn't really want to crap on Itachi's view, then he would have did what Itachi asked and made a new better life for himself and not destroy the village. Remember Itachi loved Konoha. He supported it so much that he was willing to take the blame for everything for it. Destroying Konoha is crapping on his Itachi's views.
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I don't think Sasuke knows this is Obito's objective.
Not fully, but Sasuke isn't stupid either. Why would he have Sasuke go after Killer Bee? Sasuke may not know Obito's plan in full, but he should be smart enough to figure out that something isn't right. One could ague that Sasuke doesn't care, but if Sasuke knew what his plan was, I wouldn't be surprised if he tried to stop himself.
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Well, Sasuke would have the rule of ninjas regarding rouge ninjas, but (a) that's not very heroic, (b) the rules of ninja haven'r applied to the main characters since....did they ever apply to them and the rest of the younger generation...and ( c) Naruto is also fighting the ninja system itself. Using that system's rules as the primary justification to pursue him when you are fighting the system...well..it would be interesting I guess.
Villains have their own set of rules too that are supposed to challenge the rules of the world they are in. They will play underhanded and cheat, they will break the rules because to villains believe that rule don't apply to them. True villains will not only break the system, but also showed how flawed the system is.
Even the villains in this manga do that. More or less "You say we can end hatred using this flawed system of Justice, but look how I lived. Was that justice? Was it fair? So why should I be fair in return? People only understand violence. I am going to show how flawed it really is."
That's where the hero comes in not only to defend the system, but prove it works simply by being in his own moral.
Nagato is a great example on how Sasuke should have went. Maybe not with the resurrection part or the amount of damage caused. Here he did something bad and horrible that not even the hero could forgive him, but he says he won't hate him either for all that he has done. Giving him the speech and showing him that he can prove him wrong just by standing up to him. This caused Nagato to realize something and make him see why he was wrong. Then he sacrificed himself to bring back all the people to try and atone for his sins even when he knew that he was going to die.
And yes, Naruto is fighting the Ninja system himself, but unlike Obito, Sasuke, Madara and so forth he doesn't want to destroy the system, he just wants to perfect it. We also have the fact that even though the system is flawed, it still managed to produce Naruto and people like Naruto. Who is the hero of this story. So it is not a bad system, it just needs more tweaking.
I really hate chaotic neutral. It's a pain in the butt to DM a determined chaotic neutral character. I don't think that it's possible to write a airtight definition that'll keep the player from arguing that the alignment simply means that they'll do whatever they want (chaotic greedy or chaotic chaotic).
And on that subject, I think that Sasuke has moved to chaotic evil. He just isn't interested in teaming up with the other evil characters' goals. I mean, the Joker is still chaotic evil even if he doesn't play nice with Lex Luthor's plans.
No, I believe that's wrong. Joker doesn't play nice with other villains true, but that's the only thing they have in common. Joker was always the character that did evil things because it was fun. He did it because he got a laugh out of it and that was his whole point. Chaotic Evil is as was said in the Batman movie "He is not looking for anything logical like money (or revenge.) Some men just want to watch the world burn." The Joker always challenged Batman because he was a challenge. "What would I do without you?"
That's not Sasuke. He just wants to destroy Konoha due to revenge, not for money or pleasure. Like you said he doesn't seek out fights so he is not motivated by bloodshed. He doesn't want money and he doesn't exactly want to cause problems "just because."
The only real Chaotic evil characters is Orochimaru and Deidara who did things "just because" and got enjoyment out of it. Gaara used to be because he believed he was nothing more than a tool to cause bloodshed, but turned good.
I will say this though. The time around when Sasuke fought Danzo was when he turned Chaotic Evil for a brief moment, but soon turned right back into Chaotic Neutral when he met Itachi again.
I forgot to add this:
Type 1 can be vaguely described as a true hedonist- they are interested in fulfilling their desires, and in pursuing their own interests. They have little to no respect for law and order, at best accepting it as a necessary evil that furthers these ends, at worst to the point they are prepared to commit acts that are immoral or outright criminal, avoiding a Neutral or Chaotic Evil alignment due to simply not being ruthless or malevolent enough. They are not evil because their desires are not especially evil (or they have too much of a conscience), but neither are they altruistic enough to be considered good, and they may hold both either in disdain or with indifference, feeling that to each their own, though most know better than to hang out with especially wicked types. At best, they are kind to friends, family or strangers if only because they find such behaviour personally satisfying; at worst, they are Jerkasses who don't give a damn about anyone but themselves, and are indifferent or blind to the rights of others.
I meant Sasuke is a bad guy as a single character who doesn't search for fights with other unless he wants it, unlike villains like obito who is thinking about his plans and wants to fight others to gain control on things, and of course a bad guy and a villain are considered evil.
Chaotic Neutral. Like I said. Doesn't do anything unless they want to do it. No side-affiliations. No moral alignment. He does things because he wants to. He is not a bad guy or good guy. He is just an opposition.
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What Nate River said.
Replied already you can read it above.
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I was telling you why he gets side-tracked most of the times plus there is another reason that you already tell it yourself, yea, it's probably because kishi wants the final action between Naruto and Sasuke.
I already knew the answers. I want to see if you knew. If anyone else realized it too. People are so quick to judge Obito and berate Kishi for his choice on Obito, but do they really see that Obito is not the worst choice he had made in this manga. Sasuke being a point, probably a much worse character written in terms of a main plot device.
You pass.
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Sasuke wants to know about everything that is and was related to him, before he goes to accomplish his revenge on Konoha, he wants to stabilize his reasons very well in his ways that he's using the revenge on Konoha which that why he revived Orochimaru, to go and see what he wants in his own eyes.
Again, and this will do what exactly? That is the important question which cannot be answered until we see it play. He already has stable enough reasons already. In fact, many of the other villains have even less stable reasons to be evil than Sasuke does. Is this a major plot point or is it Kishi just stalling for time? That is the million dollar question that we have to wait and see what the answer is
I would prepare for the worst here myself, but that is my opinion.
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Sasuke isn't in the war, simply because he's not supposed to be if he'll be fighting with Naruto in the end, that if.
I can only tell you that what's set is set and maybe you'll get some of the answers for the questions you're asking as these are ideas that Kishi has in his own head not things that we could answer them that are known to or should be in manga.
Exactly. Like I said. Sasuke satellites the plot and he is restricted by it. There are many characters in this plot that have even less reasons to be evil and have done more things than Sasuke has. There are villains who didn't need answers to every question in life because they knew that knowing them wouldn't change anything. Like I told Nate. Perchance the answers they were looking for are the answers the hero gives them. (ie. Nagato)
So what was the whole point of this? The point I am tying to show is that of all the criticism that people make about Obito and his reasons and saying he is a lame villain because his reasons are lame need to look at Sasuke. He is a character that is driven by the plot itself.
Because Obito is on the field, and Madara, he can't let Sasuke make a move. So what does he do? He is stalling Sasuke by making him go on these side-adventures. You said he could write anything he wants which is true, however there are several ways he could have written this part maybe a little bit better. It's not the message he is trying to give, it is how he is trying to give it.
Kishi is human. And he makes mistakes. Somewhere along the line he made a mistake and now he has to stall for time. Simple as that.
I am trying to prove a point that while Kishi has writing freedom, there are things he could have done worse and things he could have done much better and managed better. Posters here have made claims that they give up on the manga because the whole "Tobi is Obito and that he is doing this because Rin died" is a terrible written plot. I am here to show that he has written worse plot ideas with that being how Sasuke acts. I pointed out so many flaws because I am showing what he could have done, but didn't. You guys can fill in the rest here.
Edited by James S Cassidy, 09 September 2012 - 07:08 PM.
This topic is locked
he really would be great help
but dont look at it like that..think of the bright side ...all this is for the greater good 
trust me
