54217 replies to this topic

[Dkey]

 
The only people who actually managed to successfully kill their respective targets during that arc who were of 12/13 years of age were Choji and Gaara. Neji was 14 in the latter half of P1 (which is the area of time that the Sasuke Retrieval Arc actually occurred in), Kiba was forced to retreat after his most powerful technique had failed, Shikamaru required assistance from Temari as he was beginning to falter in his struggle against Tayuya, and Lee was literally staring directly at the instrument of his potential demise when Gaara intervened. The Sand Siblings, excluding Gaara, were roughly the same age as the rookies in their current state back then so they wouldn't exactly fit the criteria.
 
Although I do get the gist of what you're saying. These are adolescents who are being thrown into a dangerous combat situation where the possibility of death is so readily apparent and the individuals involved so willing to kill in the name of their village/leader that it almost seems paradoxical. Especially when you consider that the ages and mindsets of all those involved are typically associated with naivety and innocence from such morbid prospects. 
 
As for the for lack of murdering in Naruto and Sakura's careers as shinobi it's open to interpretation as to whether they have actually killed or not; in Naruto's situation moreso. Can the sacrifices that are utilized in Pain's Shapeshifting Technique be considered living? Or it simply a physical creature that has long since been deprived of its independent sentience that is being manipulated like a puppet through the usage of chakra? We would need to refer to the 3rd Databook for clarification on that.
 
Then you have Kakuzu who's final "life" Kakashi did ultimately put an end to but from previous statements made about needing to "kill" five consecutive times before he actually dies wouldn't Naruto have technically killed him twice when he destroyed two of his hearts with the Rasenshuriken? Oh, and there's all of the Zetsu clones which Naruto destroyed but I doubt those are being considered.
 
One more thing. Even though it is arguable as to whether Naruto has ever killed before he has fought against opponents with the intention to kill before. That does somewhat remove the benevolent ambiance he has with his character.

Actually all of team 7 was shielded from taking life by the story. And all 3 of them showed reluctance in killing.
Naruto could but didnt kill Gaara
Sasuke didnt want to kill untill the summit arc
and Sakura couldn't kill Sasuke.

Now for Naruto he has shown great destructive power and sometimes his emotions got the better of him yet he didn't stick a kunai in somebodies heart and snuffed that life out of existence. And I dont think he will in the future but Obito and Sasuke are right now great threats and his comrades will ask him to kill them

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

Actually all of team 7 was shielded from taking life by the story. And all 3 of them showed reluctance in killing.
Naruto could but didnt kill Gaara
Sasuke didnt want to kill untill the summit arc
and Sakura couldn't kill Sasuke.

Now for Naruto he has shown great destructive power and sometimes his emotions got the better of him yet he didn't stick a kunai in somebodies heart and snuffed that life out of existence. And I dont think he will in the future but Obito and Sasuke are right now great threats and his comrades will ask him to kill them

He killed those sound ninjas when he didnt had to, he killed one guy when he with that seal, but i agree Sasuke crossed the line when he killed Jay those ninjas, then later when he killed the samurais and what sealed the deal was when he killed Danzou.

Sakura she went to kill Sasuke but she herself knew she wasnt capable of that.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 11 June 2013 - 06:44 PM.

[Atheck]

Actually all of team 7 was shielded from taking life by the story. And all 3 of them showed reluctance in killing.
Naruto could but didnt kill Gaara
Sasuke didnt want to kill untill the summit arc
and Sakura couldn't kill Sasuke.

Now for Naruto he has shown great destructive power and sometimes his emotions got the better of him yet he didn't stick a kunai in somebodies heart and snuffed that life out of existence. And I dont think he will in the future but Obito and Sasuke are right now great threats and his comrades will ask him to kill them

 

There was no subtle hint of reluctance to kill when Naruto made his declaration to Gaara that he would do whatever he must to protect Sakura and his friends. He never offered any possibility of repentance or the opportunity to live to the Sound 5, Itachi's replica, Deidara, Orochimaru, Kakuzu, Pain's paths (whom he had no understanding were only lifeless puppets being manipulated), or all of the White Zetsu clones that he has destroyed.

 

That assertion is completely inaccurate when referring to Sasuke. The entire basis for character throughout the vast majority of the manga has been the long-lasting ambition to kill for the sake of vengeance. Even when Sasuke had assumed a morally neutral position for the first half of P2, expressing an unwillingness to become involved with any nation's military actions or needlessly murder others, he was determined to kill Itachi. Eventually during the Kage Summit arc he had forsaken all moral parameters that he placed upon himself and his team by murdering the samurai and lunging at the Raikage's group with intent to kill despite having been clearly depicted as capable of non fatally incapacitating his opponents before when he defeated a vast array of shinobi under Orochimaru's authority.

 

As for Sakura, well she is the most ethically consistent character of the trio. Never has she been presented with a situation that has made her question her morality or actions to the same degree like Naruto with Nagato or Sasuke with Tobi and Orochimaru. However, just like the other two, she has attacked others with the intent to kill before. When Sakura gathered her resolve to protect her teammates in the Forest of Death she attacked the Sound Trio with a fiery determination that would clearly suggest that she is willing to do any and everything necessary to protect her group, regardless of the sacrifice. In P2 during the Sasori fight she completely disassembled Sasori's body with the impact of her attack and afterwards she was celebrating a presumed victory with Chiyo. Now unless you're of the opinion that Sakura's mentality was merely to incapacitate Sasori by completely destroying his body and abandoning him there, somehow still alive despite her lack of knowledge as to the extent that Sasori's abilities his body provided to him for surviving such dire circumstances, then she was intending to kill him. In fact that was what the orders given by Kakashi entailed was the elimination of Sasori.

 

Naruto and Sakura have never committed any reprehensible acts of violence against others before nor have they "stuck a kunai in somebody's heart" but the motive of their actions has always been the immediate neutralization of any belligerent forces that they happen to be fighting against by any means necessary. They have used deadly force against various opponents which reveals that they not personally inhibited by any moral extremity. If it's the only possible means that they have to stop their enemy then they will use it.
 

Edited by Atheck, 11 June 2013 - 07:34 PM.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

 

There was no subtle hint of reluctance to kill when Naruto made his declaration to Gaara that he would do whatever he must to protect Sakura and his friends. He never offered any possibility of repentance or the opportunity to live to the Sound 5, Itachi's replica, Deidara, Orochimaru, Kakuzu, Pain's paths (whom he had no understanding were only lifeless puppets being manipulated), or all of the White Zetsu clones that he has destroyed.

 

That assertion is completely inaccurate when referring to Sasuke. The entire basis for character throughout the vast majority of the manga has been the long-lasting ambition to kill for the sake of vengeance. Even when Sasuke had assumed a morally neutral position for the first half of P2, expressing an unwillingness to become involved with any nation's military actions or needlessly murder others, he was determined to kill Itachi. Eventually during the Kage Summit arc he had forsaken all moral parameters that he placed upon himself and his team by murdering the samurai and lunging at the Raikage's group with intent to kill despite having been clearly depicted as capable of non fatally incapacitating his opponents before when he defeated a vast array of shinobi under Orochimaru's authority.

 

As for Sakura, well she is the most ethically consistent character of the trio. Never has she been presented with a situation that has made her question her morality or actions to the same degree like Naruto with Nagato or Sasuke with Tobi and Orochimaru. However, just like the other two, she has attacked others with the intent to kill before. When Sakura gathered her resolve to protect her teammates in the Forest of Death she attacked the Sound Trio with a fiery determination that would clearly suggest that she is willing to do any and everything necessary to protect her group, regardless of the sacrifice. In P2 during the Sasori fight she completely disassembled Sasori's body with the impact of her attack and afterwards she was celebrating a presumed victory with Chiyo. Now unless you're of the opinion that Sakura's mentality was merely to incapacitate Sasori by completely destroying his body and abandoning him there, somehow still alive despite her lack of knowledge as to the extent that Sasori's abilities his body provided to him for surviving such dire circumstances, then she was intending to kill him. In fact that was what the orders given by Kakashi entailed was the elimination of Sasori.

 

Naruto and Sakura have never committed any reprehensible acts of violence against others before nor have they "stuck a kunai in somebody's heart" but the motive of their actions has always been the immediate neutralization of any belligerent forces that they happen to be fighting against by any means necessary. They have used deadly force against various opponents which reveals that they not personally inhibited by any moral extremity. If it's the only possible means that they have to stop their enemy then they will use it.
 

But she didnt and look what happened Sasori ended up killing himself later, the same with Naruto, he throw that rasen-shuriken with the intent to kill and look what happened, he was still alive.

Naruto and Sakura never kill anyone they always die by other's hands or suicide, they never finished anyone like Kakashi or Sasuke.
But they faced situations like that, Naruto could not kill Nagato and Sakura could not kill Sasuke.

It's not situations like Kill or be killed it's when killing is unecessary but they kill anyway.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 11 June 2013 - 07:51 PM.

[Dkey]

Also Sakura and Naruto have abilities that can be used to incapacitate. kakashi and sasuke have the chidori that managed to rake up a few kills. Sasuke also has amaterasu that can burn someone alive if he wishes.

Naruto has the rasengan and as I said could be used effectively for incapacitation. The rasenshuriken can render a shinobi unable to use chakra.

Sakura's chakra control and medical know how can also help her incapacitate an opponent. Her chakra fists would be deadly but just like Naruto she can choose not to kill

[HauntedCake]

OOOOO whens the spoliers

[FrenchMyToast]

Actually all of team 7 was shielded from taking life by the story. And all 3 of them showed reluctance in killing.
Naruto could but didnt kill Gaara
Sasuke didnt want to kill untill the summit arc
and Sakura couldn't kill Sasuke.

Now for Naruto he has shown great destructive power and sometimes his emotions got the better of him yet he didn't stick a kunai in somebodies heart and snuffed that life out of existence. And I dont think he will in the future but Obito and Sasuke are right now great threats and his comrades will ask him to kill them

 

Well we shouldn't call them saints or anything because they've all had their own murderous moments. Mostly Naruto and Sasuke, but still...

[Zatheko]

Didn't Naruto kill Kakuzu with the rasen shuriken?

[Gravenimage]

Didn't Naruto kill Kakuzu with the rasen shuriken?

 

I think Naruto killed 3 of Kakuzu's hearts with the rasen shuriken and Kakashi was the one who killed his last heart with a chidori so it was really him who killed him not Naruto.

[Atheck]

But she didnt and look what happened Sasori ended up killing himself later, the same with Naruto, he throw that rasen-shuriken with the intent to kill and look what happened, he was still alive.

Naruto and Sakura never kill anyone they always die by other's hands or suicide, they never finished anyone like Kakashi or Sasuke.
But they faced situations like that, Naruto could not kill Nagato and Sakura could not kill Sasuke.

It's not situations like Kill or be killed it's when killing is unecessary but they kill anyway.

 

The context is referring to Sakura intending to kill Sasori, not that she was successful in the endeavour. As for Naruto, if you're referring to Kakuzu, then my responce is that he did manage to destroy two of Kakuzu's hearts and depending on how you interpret the death process for someone with Kakuzu's eccentric circumstances Naruto would have successfully "killed" him two consecutive times.

 

I am aware that conventionally Naruto does not kill whenever he is fighting but there have been several occasions where he arguably murdered his opponent and he was of perfectly able mind whenever he destroyed Zetsu's replicas. Sakura has had few battles in the manga but whenever she has fought, excluding her preliminary match with Ino, her resolve has always been to neutralize her adversary/adversaries. I'll reiterate my statement of that the sullying of their morality is not completely dependent on whether they succeeded or not in their attempt to kill, but it's that it was their intention to deprive another person of their life or their threat to do so that partially darkens the context of their actions.

 

Also Sakura and Naruto have abilities that can be used to incapacitate. kakashi and sasuke have the chidori that managed to rake up a few kills. Sasuke also has amaterasu that can burn someone alive if he wishes.

Naruto has the rasengan and as I said could be used effectively for incapacitation. The rasenshuriken can render a shinobi unable to use chakra.

Sakura's chakra control and medical know how can also help her incapacitate an opponent. Her chakra fists would be deadly but just like Naruto she can choose not to kill

 

All of Naruto's offensive ninjutsu have fatal applications in their usage. His Rasengan literally bores into the body of his enemy, tearing apart tissue, blood, and bone with ease whilst propelling them from the momentum of the attack usually to collide with a hard surface. Mind you, this is Naruto's weakest attack. The Rasenshuriken, Oodama Rasengan, and Bijudama are all ninjutsu that have the potential to completely destroy or kill a target on impact. If any of those techniques were used on anyone who was biologically or physically normal, as in they're not mutants like Kakuzu or have ridiculous levels of durability such as the 3rd Raikage, then they would almost immediately die if they were to suffer the brunt of the force behind any of those techniques.

 

But with that aside my point is that they use those techniques with the intention of killing. Neither Sakura nor Naruto have ever argued the killing of the Akatsuki members whom they defeated. In fact, were it not for the unorthodox physical conditions of their opponents that allow them to survive devastating attacks they would have easily died. I already addressed this above in my responce to Darkrest though.

 

Edit: If there are any errors in my post here then I apologize for that.

Edited by Atheck, 11 June 2013 - 09:12 PM.

[Beastbomb]

But she didnt and look what happened Sasori ended up killing himself later, the same with Naruto, he throw that rasen-shuriken with the intent to kill and look what happened, he was still alive.
Naruto and Sakura never kill anyone they always die by other's hands or suicide, they never finished anyone like Kakashi or Sasuke.
But they faced situations like that, Naruto could not kill Nagato and Sakura could not kill Sasuke.
It's not situations like Kill or be killed it's when killing is unecessary but they kill anyway.

Didn't Naruto kill that sand ninja who became a substitute for Itachi with the rasengan during the Gaara rescue arc (don't know if that was what the arc was called). Or was that ninja already dead before the substitution.

Edited by Beastbomb, 11 June 2013 - 09:41 PM.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

Didn't Naruto kill that sand ninja who became a substitute for Itachi with the rasengan during the Gaara rescue arc (don't know if that was what the arc was called). Or was that ninja already dead before the substitution.

They said he was already dead it was a sacrifice.

Mostly like a sacrifice.

[Atheck]

They said he was already dead it was a sacrifice.

Mostly like a sacrifice.

 

Could you provide the specific chapter and page number that refers to the sacrifice being deceased?

[Beastbomb]

They said he was already dead it was a sacrifice.
Mostly like a sacrifice.

Good, I wasn't sure if he did or not.

[TouKen4Life3g]

 
I think Naruto killed 3 of Kakuzu's hearts with the rasen shuriken and Kakashi was the one who killed his last heart with a chidori so it was really him who killed him not Naruto.

I remember the funny note from DB sub saying, "Kakashi kill steal. So wrong."

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

 

Could you provide the specific chapter and page number that refers to the sacrifice being deceased?

I dont remember the chapter exactly but i remember the scene it was night the zetsu went to pick up those bodies, then he explains about the technique it's similar to pain's but the guys are sacrificed and their bodies while "alive" are used as vessels until the chakra runs out the technique fades and they die.

Both Kisame and Itachi give 30% of their chakras to those vessels.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 11 June 2013 - 10:26 PM.

[Atheck]

I dont remember the chapter exactly but i remember the scene it was night the zetsu went to pick up those bodies, then he explains about the technique it's similar to pain's but the guys are sacrificed and their bodies while "alive" are used as vessels until the chakra runs out the technique fades and they die.

Both Kisame and Itachi give 30% of their chakras to those vessels.

 

Well it's obvious that the clones were not stopped due to expending all of the chakra that they were provided. Both Itachi and Kisame's replicas were prematurely "killed" by Naruto and Guy. I suppose the question presented then is what exactly was the cause of their demise. Did the chakra they were given somehow deplete itself when they were attacked or was it Naruto/Guy's techniques that killed them? Or perhaps is it a combination of both methods that expedited the replicas' deaths?

 

It's such a hotly contested issue whenever it's brought up. Quite similar to the question I've seen other forum users make about whether it was Sasuke who killed Danzo or if the activation of his seal brought about his actual death.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

 

Well it's obvious that the clones were not stopped due to expending all of the chakra that they were provided. Both Itachi and Kisame's replicas were prematurely "killed" by Naruto and Guy. I suppose the question presented then is what exactly was the cause of their demise. Did the chakra they were given somehow deplete itself when they were attacked or was it Naruto/Guy's techniques that killed them? Or perhaps is it a combination of both methods that expedited the replicas' deaths?

 

It's such a hotly contested issue whenever it's brought up. Quite similar to the question I've seen other forum users make about whether it was Sasuke who killed Danzo or if the activation of his seal brought about his actual death.

The fact is that he crossed the line when he betrayed Karin but what cant be downplayed is when he killed those samurais that was the point where Karin saw he was darker than before.
The Danzou thing sealed the deal because he was really going to finish off Karin after betraying her.

as a comparison look when Sasuke didnt kill those ninja when he was being trained by Orochimaru and the Samurai stuff.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 11 June 2013 - 11:20 PM.

[Otaru]

guys

 

is this a real art from RtN ?

I've newer saw this and i find the style really odd.

 

http://browse.devian...ninja-377368255

[Verilance]

The movie poster had Sakura sitting where Hinata was but it seems other than that to be like the original article