19964 replies to this topic

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

i beg to differ. i've never hated tsunderes and i'm a guy. i actually understood and liked it and didn't bash. i hate bashing of any kind. and i live in the US.

he was talking about majority and NH is not popular only on the U.S but a lot of ocidental countries too.
the problem is sakura had a really bad character at the begining her fangirling sasuke was annoying, she was really better when sasuke was not around the village we could see her true self a fact to proves it is her inner self did not showed up anymore.

sakura's character was changing while hinata's always the same since the begining.

Edited by dovahkiin, 10 July 2012 - 11:47 PM.

[Dalton.T.R]

i beg to differ. i've never hated tsunderes and i'm a guy. i actually understood and liked it and didn't bash. i hate bashing of any kind. and i live in the US.

I give this two thumbs up!

[Verilance]

... a lot of ocidental countries too.

you rarely see occidental (as in the opposite of oriental) used in a sentence anymore

Edited by Verilance, 11 July 2012 - 12:28 AM.

[Jake]

Here's something I just realized, you know how many fans believe Sakura's confession to Naruto was the end of Narusaku because most believe she was lying and Naruto rejected it. Then shouldn't Sakura's confession to Sasuke in Part 1 end Sasusaku. We know she does love Sasuke, but he didn't return the feelings she had for him to her. Unlike Naruto who couldn't accept her confession because he felt she wasn't being totally honest, Sasuke just didn't return the feelings. He appreciated that she actually cared for him, which is why he thanked her, but he didn't love her the way she wanted him to.

So if we can use the logic that because Naruto didn't accept Sakura's confession, that means Narusaku is dead. Than that means we can use that same rule for Sakura's confession to Sasuke as a reason why Sasusaku is dead.

Don't you know that you can argue logic with NH and SS fans?

No, I don't think the voice has anything to do with it. The tsundere thing is not well received here by the male audience.

I agree, I acctually liked her voice.

[Don-kun]

Here's something I just realized, you know how many fans believe Sakura's confession to Naruto was the end of Narusaku because most believe she was lying and Naruto rejected it. Then shouldn't Sakura's confession to Sasuke in Part 1 end Sasusaku. We know she does love Sasuke, but he didn't return the feelings she had for him to her. Unlike Naruto who couldn't accept her confession because he felt she wasn't being totally honest, Sasuke just didn't return the feelings. He appreciated that she actually cared for him, which is why he thanked her, but he didn't love her the way she wanted him to.

So if we can use the logic that because Naruto didn't accept Sakura's confession, that means Narusaku is dead. Than that means we can use that same rule for Sakura's confession to Sasuke as a reason why Sasusaku is dead.

I posted this on another forum.

Well I believe Sakura was lying in her confession, but who knows if she was only lying to herself thinking she could accept her feelings for Naruto and turn off her feelings for Sasuke like someone who turn a off bulb. That's why she was genuinely hurt when Naruto turned her down and say that she was lying to herself.

One thing is sure, she was very determined to kill Sasuke in two different occasions one of them was after Naruto save her, but she was stopped by Kakashi on her 3rd attemp, when he told her that do to her feelings for Sasuke she will not be able to kill him something she should already known and it made her feel ashemed of herself.
And to think she did all of that just for the person she see as a brother has many classify them to be, That person who all Antis are sure she doesn't loves, and will never love, when the manga clrealy shows there is something more than justfriends, something that NH & SS don't have.

Later on we see Sakura call her resolve just empty words because she didn't kill off Sasuke, but then she thanked Naruto for restoring her faith in Sasuke again (in other words she try to convince herself that by loving Naruto she would be helping him and helping herself by being with someone who really loves her), again something that NH & SS don't have. Now to deny there is something stronger than just friends between Sakura and Naruto, is just been in denial.

What else could Sakura meant when she stated that her resolve was just empty words? That is something the ANS will always try avoid, by just thinking Sakura use Naruto's feelings is the best way they can sleep better and keep saying that NS is dead and NH and SS will be the end pairing

[PachucoDesigns]

i beg to differ. i've never hated tsunderes and i'm a guy. i actually understood and liked it and didn't bash. i hate bashing of any kind. and i live in the US.

Yeah, but by the same token, I'm willing to bet that you've never met the equivalent of a tsundere in real life, much less watch any guy tolerate her, let alone fawn over her. I don't know if Japan thinks that's what it's like over here, but if they do, they're incorrect. Liking that sort of thing seems like masochism to most males here, regardless of how you see it. Most of us would prefer not to be screamed at, chastised, and on all accounts, visibly hated, then treated lovey-dovey. We have words for that kind of behavior in real life. Like psycho chick. Or schizophrenia. lol

[Branden]

Yeah, but by the same token, I'm willing to bet that you've never met the equivalent of a tsundere in real life, much less watch any guy tolerate her, let alone fawn over her. I don't know if Japan thinks that's what it's like over here, but if they do, they're incorrect. Liking that sort of thing seems like masochism to most males here, regardless of how you see it. Most of us would prefer not to be screamed at, chastised, and on all accounts, visibly hated, then treated lovey-dovey. We have words for that kind of behavior in real life. Like psycho chick. Or schizophrenia. lol

well the bad makes the good seem that much better, so I guess your giving up constant happiness to have a greater appreciation of happiness.

not saying it's ideal but still a change from the standard boring relationship is a good change. I mean really, am I the only one who thinks Naruhina just seems extremely boring? At least Narusaku is dynamic and comedic.

[PachucoDesigns]

well the bad makes the good seem that much better, so I guess your giving up constant happiness to have a greater appreciation of happiness.

not saying it's ideal but still a change from the standard boring relationship is a good change. I mean really, am I the only one who thinks Naruhina just seems extremely boring? At least Narusaku is dynamic and comedic.

Yeah, I think there are many men/women out there who came out psychotic relationships with broken property, spirits and/or bones that would greatly prefer "boring." lol

[Branden]

Yeah, I think there are many men/women out there who came out psychotic relationships with broken property, spirits and/or bones that would greatly prefer "boring." lol

Everyone has opinions, if that's the way you want to view things then I will not stop you. I however disagree.

[PachucoDesigns]

Everyone has opinions, if that's the way you want to view things then I will not stop you. I however disagree.

You can disagree all you want, man. But I defy you to show me a relationship that looks and sounds like the one between Naruto and Sakura occurring in the real world that does not end in abuse and heartbreak. Things do not happen this way in the real world. And if you ever found yourself in a relationship with a girl like that, a girl who yells at you, chastises you, and takes it upon herself to "keep you in line" until she decides it's time to be sweet and caring with you, you would see it through very different eyes. For the sake of comedy, in a fictional world, that may be fine. Not in the real world. Things aren't so forgiving in reality. I've dated a girl like that before, and "interesting" was the last word from my mind.

Before you start indulging in the fantasy and saying how wrong I am, I seriously want you to consider it. I don't care if you take this as Sakura bashing or not. It isn't. Seriously consider it. Consider dating a girl who calls you an idiot, yells at you, and feels the constant need to condescendingly play the "mature adult." Consider dating a girl who has a tendency of treating you like an embarrassment, and fawns after "cool" guys in spite of you. And when you've had just about enough of that, consider that girl reeling you back in by being sweet and caring for a while. Yeah, it may be funny in anime. It's not funny in real life. Trust me.

That is why Sakura is largely unpopular in America and other parts of the western world. Because in our culture, such a thing is not appealing. Because we know girls like that really do exist, and no man wants to put up with it. Not unless he's a total sycophant.

I am not Sakura bashing. I'm just telling you how this sort of thing translates into reality.

Edited by PachucoDesigns, 11 July 2012 - 06:53 AM.

[Heaven on Earth]

i beg to differ. i've never hated tsunderes and i'm a guy. i actually understood and liked it and didn't bash. i hate bashing of any kind. and i live in the US.

hmm, NH isnt popular in my country, even NS is more popular than NH here. But, SS is more popular, especially from crazy fangirls. You know, many girls here are shoujo-comic fans.

NH isnt popular but Hinata-centric fans is much more than Sakura's. Simple. It cause Hinata looks more 'kind' and lovable while Sakura was created from an annoying person to caring person toward the hero of the story.

A lot of my friends who loves Hinata didnt care if she ends up with Naruto, Kiba, Neji, even Sasuke (ahem, SH fandom is very huge here). As long as their hime happy, they didnt care about pairings. Some of them admitted that Naruto will always love Sakura.

But most of Sakura fans, very strict about who she ends up with. Thats why SS and NS had some high tension here. Hahaha.

I'm a girl and I know that most of fanboys of this manga didnt care about pairings.

Btw, I'm Asian.

[FoolishYoungling]

hmm, NH isnt popular in my country, even NS is more popular than NH here. But, SS is more popular, especially from crazy fangirls. You know, many girls here are shoujo-comic fans.

NH isnt popular but Hinata-centric fans is much more than Sakura's. Simple. It cause Hinata looks more 'kind' and lovable while Sakura was created from an annoying person to caring person toward the hero of the story.

A lot of my friends who loves Hinata didnt care if she ends up with Naruto, Kiba, Neji, even Sasuke (ahem, SH fandom is very huge here). As long as their hime happy, they didnt care about pairings. Some of them admitted that Naruto will always love Sakura.

But most of Sakura fans, very strict about who she ends up with. Thats why SS and NS had some high tension here. Hahaha.

I'm a girl and I know that most of fanboys of this manga didnt care about pairings.

Btw, I'm Asian.

I'm on my way to wherever you live.

Edited by FoolishYoungling , 11 July 2012 - 08:22 AM.

[redragon88]

hmm, NH isnt popular in my country, even NS is more popular than NH here. But, SS is more popular, especially from crazy fangirls. You know, many girls here are shoujo-comic fans.

That's a very interesting fact. So you're says that at least from where you live a good bunch of SS fans are girls the prefer shoujo manga?

The would make a lot of sense since I think most of shoujo manga concentrate on building the relationship of the normal girl with the cool and popular guy or the attractive anti-hero who is a rogue with attitude (I think those two type of guys are the most used). Not to mention that such development is filled with a lot of angst coming from the girl.

SS is basically a not so developed version of such a relationship that occurs in shoujo manga, Sakura is obviously to be viewed as a normal girl and Sasuke can fill either of the roles used for the guy (it really depends on how people view him). It could very well be that at least those girls you described view the romance subplot of the Naruto manga with a shoujo perspective instead of a shounen one. That's why they might be insistent that is all about the girl's feelings and that by that reason Naruto would have no chance of winning her.

I think many shoujo manga also have a secondary love interest with a similar personality to Naruto who always ends up loosing to the cool guy in these stories. Although I want to note that this secondary love interest is probably made to look like a clown most of the time, instead to having the good moral development that Naruto is shown to acquire. In other words this secondary love interest remains with the same bratty attitude that Naruto had in chapter one and never develops it.

Even I didn't like the idea of bratty chapter one Naruto getting together with Sakura, but as both developed in the story I liked the idea more and more. I could be that that specific group of girls don't want to accept the idea of Naruto and Sakura together thanks to the shoujo influence they have on their minds. It could be that because of it they are sold on the idea that the romance subplot is all about Sakura's wants instead of noticing the much more powerful impact that Naruto's selfless love for Sakura can leave on the audience.

They can acknowledge Naruto's personal growth in the manga but they think it should culminate with him giving up on Sakura like it's the tendency of the secondary love interests to do in shoujo manga. But what they don't take into account it the fact that Naruto is the main character and has the believe of never giving up.

This is all obviously my perspective and by no means I claim that I'm completely correct. And those SS fans that let themselves be influenced by the shoujo manga formula could be not that much or maybe they are, I wouldn't know either way.

[Konoha'sCrimsonFox]

Wait a minute, you all are saying that Kishi had hate mails from a NH fan from one of his interviews *cracks up laughing*. I hardly been fowllowing his interviews of lately. Would some one be kind enough to post a link to that interview if information is still available?

Edited by Konoha'sCrimsonFox, 11 July 2012 - 08:51 AM.

[Codus N]

That's a very interesting fact. So you're says that at least from where you live a good bunch of SS fans are girls the prefer shoujo manga?

The would make a lot of sense since I think most of shoujo manga concentrate on building the relationship of the normal girl with the cool and popular guy or the attractive anti-hero who is a rogue with attitude (I think those two type of guys are the most used). Not to mention that such development is filled with a lot of angst coming from the girl.

SS is basically a not so developed version of such a relationship that occurs in shoujo manga, Sakura is obviously to be viewed as a normal girl and Sasuke can fill either of the roles used for the guy (it really depends on how people view him). It could very well be that at least those girls you described view the romance subplot of the Naruto manga with a shoujo perspective instead of a shounen one. That's why they might be insistent that is all about the girl's feelings and that by that reason Naruto would have no chance of winning her.

I think many shoujo manga also have a secondary love interest with a similar personality to Naruto who always ends up loosing to the cool guy in these stories. Although I want to note that this secondary love interest is probably made to look like a clown most of the time, instead to having the good moral development that Naruto is shown to acquire. In other words this secondary love interest remains with the same bratty attitude that Naruto had in chapter one and never develops it.

Even I didn't like the idea of bratty chapter one Naruto getting together with Sakura, but as both developed in the story I liked the idea more and more. I could be that that specific group of girls don't want to accept the idea of Naruto and Sakura together thanks to the shoujo influence they have on their minds. It could be that because of it they are sold on the idea that the romance subplot is all about Sakura's wants instead of noticing the much more powerful impact that Naruto's selfless love for Sakura can leave on the audience.

They can acknowledge Naruto's personal growth in the manga but they think it should culminate with him giving up on Sakura like it's the tendency of the secondary love interests to do in shoujo manga. But what they don't take into account it the fact that Naruto is the main character and has the believe of never giving up.

This is all obviously my perspective and by no means I claim that I'm completely correct. And those SS fans that let themselves be influenced by the shoujo manga formula could be not that much or maybe they are, I wouldn't know either way.

Actually, the person you replied to is actually from the same country I live in (Indonesia). So, from what I understand, NH is probably more popular here. But that's among boys. The bulk of manga fans here (what's pretty much been the one keeping the industry going here) is actually female. I had a friend who once said that Sakura's a total hypocrite. He doesn't like her because she seems to flip-flop between Sasuke and Naruto. He basically thinks it's a ping-pong game for her.

Which I understand, because I felt rather confused at what she really wants. I think the reason why is because the romance is not straightforward like other mangas. I think that's where Kishi's fault lies. If the romance had been as straightforward as say FT, none of this would happen. I think people would rather see something straightforward when it comes to romantic subplots instead of ping-ponging all over the place.

He's also never truly shown what she really feels through her own eyes. I really hope Kishi can hopefully clear it up in the special chapter next week and the movie.

@heaven on earth: emang itu popularitasnya berdasarkan apa?? apa lo dapet dr kaskus ta itu?? trus, erm.... SH!!? serius lo?? yah... mungkin gw jg gak banyak kenal fans pairing deh.... oya, lo bener. Kayaknya lebih tepat bahwa fans Hinata lebih banyak dari Sakura. Mungkin soale sama kayak Naruto. Dia underdog banget kayak dia....

@foolish: No. You don't want to. Seriously. I'd recommend you to go to anywhere but Jakarta if you want to come here.

Edited by Codus N, 11 July 2012 - 08:59 AM.

[redragon88]

Actually, the person you replied to is actually from the same country I live in (Indonesia). So, from what I understand, NH is probably more popular here. But that's among boys. The bulk of manga fans here (what's pretty much been the one keeping the industry going here) is actually female. I had a friend who once said that Sakura's a total hypocrite. He doesn't like her because she seems to flip-flop between Sasuke and Naruto. He basically thinks it's a ping-pong game for her.

Which I understand, because I felt rather confused at what she really wants. I think the reason why is because the romance is not straightforward like other mangas. I think that's where Kishi's fault lies. If the romance had been as straightforward as say FT, none of this would happen. I think people would rather see something straightforward when it comes to romantic subplots instead of ping-ponging all over the place.

He's also never truly shown what she really feels through her own eyes. I really hope Kishi can hopefully clear it up in the special chapter next week and the movie.

@heaven on earth: emang itu popularitasnya berdasarkan apa?? apa lo dapet dr kaskus ta itu?? trus, erm.... SH!!? serius lo?? yah... mungkin gw jg gak banyak kenal fans pairing deh.... oya, lo bener. Kayaknya lebih tepat bahwa fans Hinata lebih banyak dari Sakura. Mungkin soale sama kayak Naruto. Dia underdog banget kayak dia....

@foolish: No. You don't want to. Seriously. I'd recommend you to go to anywhere but Jakarta if you want to come here.

You're right about the straight forward romance of Fairy Tail. You can really tell Hiro loves shipping his own characters and doesn't care to make confusing love triangles.

I'm confused about something. You say that NH is more popular where you live, but that it's mostly with the boys. Then you say that most of the fans there are female. It sounds like a contradiction or maybe I completely misunderstood. Are you maybe saying the the girl fans of Naruto where you live don't care at all about the romance subplot and that only the boys do?

You're right about the romance subplot though. Naruto's really keeps you guessing as to what will happen in the end. Even most of shoujo mangas are very direct with what the heroine wants but Sakura's feelings are always kept ambiguous.

I still want to know, do you think that there's at least some people that let the shoujo manga formula affect how they view the romance development in the Naruto manga?

Edited by redragon88, 11 July 2012 - 09:11 AM.

[Codus N]

You're right about the straight forward romance of Fairy Tail. You can really tell Hiro loves shipping his own characters and doesn't care to make confusing love triangles.

I'm confused about something. You say that NH is more popular where you live, but that it's mostly with the boys. Then you say that most of the fans there are female. It sounds like a contradiction or maybe I completely misunderstood. Are you maybe saying the the girl fans of Naruto where you live don't care at all about the romance subplot and that only the boys do?

You're right about the romance subplot though. Naruto's really keeps you guessing as to what will happen in the end. Even most of shoujo mangas are very direct with what the heroine wants but Sakura's feelings are always kept ambiguous.

I still want to know, do you think that there's at least some people that let the shoujo manga formula affect how they view the romance development in the Naruto manga?

Ah, sorry I was being confusing . Anyways, the gist of the fanbase here is that the ones who's keeping the industry going is the female fanbase, as the bulk of our mangas are shojo mangas. But however, NH is (probably) more popular among the males. Just keep in mind that our fanbase is rather unique here .

The bulk of the Naruto fanbase here are guys, no questions asked. But however if you had to make a survey of the whole manga industry here, the majority of it are females. I think HoE hit it right on the spot regarding the Naruto female fanbase here. They do care about the pairings here, but since they're not the majority, if you had to make a survey of the Naruto fanbase on whether they care about pairings or not, the majority vote would come out as it being a secondary priority. At least, that's what I think since I don't even know the fanbase here that well.

So, to put it in a nutshell, the reason why NH is more popular because of the guys liking it. Because the guys hold the majority, NH would come out on top, definitely.

And oh, another thing (to the bolded). That's pretty much the beef the fans here has with Sakura. Us guys, especially here, would rather have girls be straightforward about what they want. But because her feelings are displayed too ambiguously, it pretty much fell flat. Kishi probably thought it would give the fans some fun to keep her feelings ambiguous, but it backfired.

I've seen several other shonen mangas where the girl's feelings are displayed ambiguously, but however it's obvious what their feelings are headed to. That's not the case here with Sakura, as Kishi did not make it straightforward enough.

Edited by Codus N, 11 July 2012 - 01:16 PM.

[Heaven on Earth]

That's a very interesting fact. So you're says that at least from where you live a good bunch of SS fans are girls the prefer shoujo manga?

The would make a lot of sense since I think most of shoujo manga concentrate on building the relationship of the normal girl with the cool and popular guy or the attractive anti-hero who is a rogue with attitude (I think those two type of guys are the most used). Not to mention that such development is filled with a lot of angst coming from the girl.

This is all obviously my perspective and by no means I claim that I'm completely correct. And those SS fans that let themselves be influenced by the shoujo manga formula could be not that much or maybe they are, I wouldn't know either way.

because I'm female, so let's look at in terms of female fans first. all my friends that fans of naruto, 80% were women. They liked the pairing is usually preceded by their love to Sasuke in season 1--handsome and cool person. shoujo-manga readers on average are women. Thats why, they are easy to like Sasuke. on shoujo manga, its easy to find the girl who loves school prince figure, and well, in the end, almost always a happy ending to the story: Oh! unexpectedly, it turns out the Prince liked the girl! that's why there are many fans of SS.

NH, too. they fell in love with Hinata because Hinata--could be similar to them--an innocent girl who secretly loves the boy.
For boys, to be honest, I did not find a single person boys in SS fandom. Sometimes I find them as NH fans, because--no offense to the boys--Hinata better than Sakura. Come on, look at her breast She's sexy and Sakura is flat-chested. They are not willing to have Naruto end up with a woman who is always hitting his head and had rejected him all the time. In shoujo-manga, we'll easily find a cool young man with a lovely girl--like SS, and an active man--bright hair--with a quiet woman with long dark hair. Its rather difficult to find two characters that are both screaming at each other so often, arguing something, then fell in love. Hmmm, its very rarely. but I found a manga that follows NS-formula: Pure Love Kamikaze Captain.

but sometimes, I found a fanboy of Naruto that doesnt care who Naruto ends up with, cause if he followed the manga from the beginning, he know that NS would likely to be happen.

@Codus

now, who. the. hell. are. you?
I never expected to meet Indonesian people here
you make me horrified when you reply to my post with my language. Initially I thought you were using google translate, but then I realized, you used slang. how do you know I'm Indonesian? seriously, you scared me for a moment. btw, no. I'm not a user kaskus. I'm active in fanfiction, deviantart, twitter fanbase, fb group, and yaaa, honestly I rarely find NH. usually, while talking to NH fanboys about their love the pairing, in the end of arguments, they're never able to give specific answers to: why NH should be happen?

Ps: Codus, gw sebenernya gak pinter2 amat bahasa inggrisan, tapi gw gak tega juga nge-reply post-mu pakek bahasa kita, takutnya member yang lain mangap pas baca, hehehehe. dan, sumpah, kamu ngebikin aku mangap selama setengah jam.

[Codus N]

@Codus

now, who. the. hell. are. you?
I never expected to meet Indonesian people here
you make me horrified when you reply to my post with my language. Initially I thought you were using google translate, but then I realized, you used slang. how do you know I'm Indonesian? seriously, you scared me for a moment. btw, no. I'm not a user kaskus. I'm active in fanfiction, deviantart, twitter fanbase, fb group, and yaaa, honestly I rarely find NH. usually, while talking to NH fanboys about their love the pairing, in the end of arguments, they're never able to give specific answers to: why NH should be happen?

Ps: Codus, gw sebenernya gak pinter2 amat bahasa inggrisan, tapi gw gak tega juga nge-reply post-mu pakek bahasa kita, takutnya member yang lain mangap pas baca, hehehehe. dan, sumpah, kamu ngebikin aku mangap selama setengah jam.

Mwaahaha you shall cower in fear for I am a super-stalker who loves terrifying women!!!.......

Juuuuust Kidding.

First, I figured out that you were Masahiro 'Night' Seiran on FF.net from your previous avatar. Second, my biggest clue was one of your posts in the Road to Ninja thread. You said what time it was where you lived. That was how I was sure you were Indonesian.

And oh yes, regarding NH fans here, I thought that the bulk of NH fans was mostly boys because that's what the majority of the fans of Naruto here are. Plus, like I said a friend of mine is an NH supporter so I just sort of concluded stuff. And oh, don't worry, I've seen some members here speak in their own native language to each other sometimes just for fun .

P.S.: Oya, km tinggal dmana?? aq tinggal di Surabaya. Lg kuliah hukum. Bhs inggrismu bagus kok, terus aja latian di sini and sorry bikin lo mangapan. Gw jujur ae jd kepingin ngebayingin mukamu ngelongo gitu LOL.

Edited by Codus N, 11 July 2012 - 11:07 AM.

[Tendo Ryuken]

but sometimes, I found a fanboy of Naruto that doesnt care who Naruto ends up with, cause if he followed the manga from the beginning, he know that NS would likely to be happen.

i followed the manga from the beginning. i was narusaku fan. then i got interested in pairing war. then i re-read the manga over and over again. then from all of the evidence i have found, i realized that its NH that would more likely to be happen. and i would love to see that . well, i joined H&E as a narusaku fan but now im proudly declare that im a naruhina fan .

I never expected to meet Indonesian people here

well. i dindt expect to find you and codus here (kenalan yuk! )

usually, while talking to NH fanboys about their love the pairing, in the end of arguments, they're never able to give specific answers to: why NH should be happen?

i will give you a bunch of specific answers if you want to