31712 replies to this topic

[ultranx]

Hi n7610, welcome to H&E. Kudos to the post and observation! All points are well articulated, and sadly, that's the reality of this series.

I'd like to present my favorite quote before I start my long (and boring) opinion:  "in God we trust, all others bring data."

So, if anyone here is debating with the other parties (God forbid), NH/SS fandom, regarding which one is more popular, which one is bringing more money, blablabla, present them some data/facts, and only debate with them if and only if they can answer with data/facts. Otherwise, don't waste your time.


Myth: NH/SS was/is more popular, therefore it brings more economic values, hence the ending we were given in order for the new series to spin off.

Fact: Well, on what basis really? Where's the fact supporting it? Based on what demographic? In which part of this world?

The answer is, none of us know exactly. Nobody knows. Even the author and publisher who supposed to have the most comprehensive data and observations failed to made the right decision.


f("NH", "SS", "NS") = Strong first week sales, often topping up more than 1.5 million copies during Naruto's prime.

f("NH", "SS") = First week sales of 183k, with Boruto series.


That was hard facts. Obviously, I made that up, and I believe some statistician at the publisher would have a much comprehensive forecasting formula, but, let's make it simple for discussion sake.


Look back at Naruto volume sales history, and decide for yourself. All other things being equal (ceteris paribus), the only component that was removed in the new spin-off is "NS". The ninja system is still around, Naruto is still around, Sasuke is traveling (away from Konoha, much like large part of the original series), Kishimoto is the editor -he has full supervision on how the story is told, he even drew part of the first chapter. The only variable that was changed, was the pairing-front, in which NS is removed completely. Before anyone disagree, please give me a fact on what else has changed, manga-wise.


Why do you think the last volume of Naruto sold less than much of its previous volume? Why do you think Boruto Gaiden sold only around 600k in its first week? Why do you think Boruto manga sold only 183k in its first week?


If you're familiar with supply chain, forecasting and statistics, you'd know the answer already. In a supply chain system where everything is on stable equation; adding, removing or modifying variables will cause the system to find a new equilibrium.


The reason why Boruto Gaiden sold only 600k in its first week, is based on its previous volume sales (the last volume of Naruto). Similarly, the reason why Boruto manga only sold for 183k in its first week, is because its previous volume sales (Boruto Gaiden) was not that great. It's trending down, or in technical terms, it's trying to find its new equilibrium. The way printing industry works, is like many other manufacturing industries. You forecast your demand, print your copies and you'd hope there's not much returns from your channels.


Now, remember what I told you about Pareto Principle the other day? http://www.narusaku....138#entry917316


I'll rehash a bit of it.


Frankly, the notion of "Naruto series is counting on pairings-minded readers to keep it afloat" used to be a joke due to the toxic pairing wars. But as it turns out, to my opinion, it actually holds some degree of truth. It's based on one simple observation: a group in the overall Naruto fanbase is contributing to 80% of the manga sales. We don't know which group it is, but based on the events following through, I'm pretty much certain the group (the one contributing to 80% of sales volume, the one making Naruto franchise largely afloat) is/was NS (and fans enjoying good storyline).


Checkout the first week sales of the last few volume of Naruto (before the final volume), where you have NS/NH/SS. And then compare it against the new Boruto manga, where readers have been provided with NH/SS material. Unsurprisingly, around 80% drop (give or take).


Well, maybe, (no fact supporting this), it is true that NS was not popular around the world. Let's say hypothetically, it's only 20% of the whole world of Naruto fan. But what if, this 20% is largely based in Japan, where the manga is born, and where the most cash is earned. Wiping off this group, essentially killing the series, because the group gives a hypothetical 80% of the revenue from the manga alone.


Again, facts are there, and it's up to the interpretation. It's no surprise that, after The Last, where they emphasized a lot on NH and a bit of SS, there are literally close to zero NH/SS moments being positively depicted, following through. It's a damage control. Someone realized they've made a big big mistake, by wiping out the 80% of their income source... and they need to find a way this "New Era" project to see the light. Therefore you see the story does not elegantly fit and cohesive.



Myth: Naruto anime is still popular. It's the top anime on TV Tokyo in April 2015 - March 2016.
Fact: Japan broadcasting is not only TV Tokyo. One Piece, Dragon Ball, etc are handled by other broadcasting firm. Moreover, what else is on other top X of the top grossing anime in TV Tokyo? (hints: it's Gintama, Pokemon, Yu-Gi-Oh, and Yokai Watch; in other words, series that are targeted to a different group of audience). Oh, btw, Yokai Watch gave more gross profit than Naruto on the same period, although it is Japan-only marketing focus, hardly any merchandise outside Japan and more importantly, the anime only came out in 2014. Let that sink for you.



Myth: Naruto is targeted into kids and pre-teen.
Fact: Wrong on so many level. If someone tell you this, please advise them to go to Japan and live there for a while, or ask them where do they get their facts from. I spent over a decade there, Naruto is certainly not for kids. Kids anime/media is something like Pokemon, Doraemon, Anpanman, etc. You will never ever see any killings, or mention of killings in media targeted for kids in Japan. The moment it involves blood, killing, revenge, it goes to at least teenager. Just because some article in the internet says that according to certain interview, Kishi says its targeted for kids, does not suddenly become the single source of truth for its status and target audience.



Myth: Naruto is still very popular, the recent game become number 1 hit for PS4.
Fact: Guess what? Gamers are a different type of audience. They only care about the games. Nothing more, nothing less. I can guarantee you there will be only small fraction who buy the game, based on the manga. I don't have facts to support this, but based on my observations while I was there, these group of people do not care much about storyline, if it's a fighting game like Naruto. They only care about the gameplay. That's all. For that reason, I think popular games like Street Fighter, or Tekken are hardly have any background story (gamers in this forum, please let me know if this is true ). And yeah, Street Fighter and Tekken were very very popular back then (at least when I live there long time ago, you can see the ads everywhere when they launch a new title).

..and many more myth/fact that I want to tell in this one post. But, that'll be in another time.

Again, if someone challenge you about something, bring some facts in to support your argument, and request the counter party to provide facts to support their arguments. If they fail to do so, do not engage in a discussion with them. You're literally wasting your time, unproductively.

Happy long weekend y'all....

 

 

MOST EPIC POST I'VE EVER SEEN. 

 

also rip db84x

his naruto is for kids excuse just got blasted to the moon where it belongs.

 

cut the post out so my reply wouldn't be too big, but epic post, you have my respect. yeah the pro enders like to make it out like this forum is the worst side of the fandom and is a pairing site, it isn't, it was always open to all fans, pairing or no pairing, ns or not ns, since the ending alot of neutral story fans hang out here, heck I was never a pairing fan, I just was invited here by a friend in 2011, because apparently on youtube the nhtards were so rabid I couldn't have a non pairing related conversation just saying naruto and sakura in the same sentence without apparently being a pairing fan, in other fandoms like the pokemon fandom I could talk about ash and misty in the same sentence, naruto fandom? nope must be a pairing fan. so I came here and it has been my safe haven ever since, the only place I can talk about naruto where pairings don't get brought up and we can talk about actual important stuff retaining to the story. I was the same as you were, I saw those 2 chapters and they made me so revolted I actually threw up and was in a depression for about a week, naruto was my favorite character and he got reduced to a scumbag, everyone got messed up and it was so disturbing. glad to see another neutral fan here, welcome ^_^

 

sorry for all the editing mishaps with my comment guys xD

Edited by ultranx, 11 September 2016 - 05:12 AM.

[db84x]

 
 
MOST EPIC POST I'VE EVER SEEN. 
 
also rip db84x
his naruto is for kids excuse just got blasted to the moon where it belongs.

Thanks NS with kid mentality like you, NS always saw with negative light by anime and manga fandom. While adult NS made more credible AU than canon, kid NS just beating over dead carcas.

[ultranx]

Thanks NS with kid mentality like you, NS always saw with negative light by anime and manga fandom. While adult NS made more credible AU than canon, kid NS just beating over dead carcas.

again, I am not an NS fan, I have no attachment to the pairing, I have told you this multiple times but you want to be stupid, I am a story fan only, I would have supported nh if it was done right, I only support the one that makes the most sense to the story, so shut up. the point was you keep acting like a knowitall about which age group naruto is for when a person who lived in japan for a decade just told you that naruto is for teenagers in japan, not preteens or kids, so congrats on making yourself look like an idiot, proving even more you don't read any of our posts, if you're not gonna read our posts you have no reason to reply since all you spout is nonsense it seems....

 

will you just give it up already, we all know you're a troll, you're not doing a very good job at trolling either.....

Edited by ultranx, 12 September 2016 - 04:42 AM.

[db84x]

again, I am not an NS fan, I have no attachment to the pairing, I have told you this multiple times but you want to be stupid, I am a story fan only, I would have supported nh if it was done right, I only support the one that makes the most sense to the story, so shut up. the point was you keep acting like a knowitall about which age group naruto is for when a person who lived in japan for a decade just told you that naruto is for teenagers in japan, not preteens or kids, so congrats on making yourself look like an idiot, proving even more you don't read any of our posts, if you're not gonna read our posts you have no reason to reply since all you spout is nonsense it seems....

 

will you just give it up already, we all know you're a troll, you're not doing a very good job at trolling either.....

 

Naruto franchise still made money for game and merchandise, loosing segment fans isn't matter anymore because it already end (In Japan, old manga end then expected to be replaced by new manga) and what shuheisha done now just milking Naruto until dry.  While sensible dissatisfied fans made AU while dissatisfied fans with kid mentality terrorize fandom with their logic. 

 

When Evangelion end, Shinji x Rei fans lament it but rather made useless wall of post or terrorize fandom  us use our energy to made better Eva AU.  Don't need to became canon pairing fans to join Eva fandom because if you don't satisfy with canon we have our AU, Eva fandom prosper and Shinji x Rei fandom got its positive effect despite we aren't main canon.

Edited by db84x, 12 September 2016 - 09:11 AM.

[LuckyChi7]

It's been a while since I've come across one of these: 

 

 

[Nostradamus]

It's been a while since I've come across one of these: 

 

 

Beautiful. It reminds me of the last true Naruto movie aka Road To Ninja.

[Phantom_999]

Egh. I can't even browse anime shopping sites without Hinaturd showing up. I am so sick of her. 

 

Hinatard/NH wet dream figure

Of course it's the Hinatard's dream. Super skinny, hourglass figure, giant boobs, jacket perfectly form fitting, thigh gap, cleavage, beautified face, blush, tight pants to show off her butt...uuugh. Disgusting. Tired of the Hinawank. Didn't they learn from The Last? It's not going to sell well. (Altho since this is international, it'll probably sell well to the Hinatards in the west...but then again, most don't support the series with money anyways.)

 

Oh give me a break, her clothes WERE NOT that form fitting

 

And no this is not me being bitter this is me stating a fact.  She was never "proud of  her figure"

Edited by Phantom_999, 14 September 2016 - 02:38 PM.

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

 

Oh give me a break, her clothes WERE NOT that form fitting

 

And no this is not me being bitter this is me stating a fact.  She was never "proud of  her figure"

Anyone with eyes and a brain could see that Hinata's clothes were very loose. Unfortunately, NH otakus only have eyes, but not the brain.

[Yyubie]

HAHA ... they lower the zip so her cleavage is shown , why don't just make her wear bikini or naked instead??

[Shadow1275]

Sometimes I wonder if this was the real future Naruto that Kishi was shooting for:

 

[Bail o' Lies]

 

Oh give me a break, her clothes WERE NOT that form fitting

 

And no this is not me being bitter this is me stating a fact.  She was never "proud of  her figure"

The only two time kishimoto even showed her figure one was when Sakura was healing her after her suicide attempt. Which nowadays I think was a recommendation by his editor "you know so Sakura can be through in her healing." There she just woke up so i doubt she realized her chest was hanging out. And in the short before the last where she had to hold down her breast or they would "float." Which to me seem that she was more embarrassed of her huge chest and anyone that may stare at it. Even the anime had her be the shy moe that who be to embarrassed to wear anything form fitting. Well other then at one time she was twelve so her fans could get a look at her sexy 12 year old body.

Sometimes I wonder if this was the real future Naruto that Kishi was shooting for:

 

I clearly was, but then the ending was decided by executive and editorial mandate. So instead to once again spite them her gave him his current kitten hair cut.

[Shadow1275]

The only two time kishimoto even showed her figure one was when Sakura was healing her after her suicide attempt. Which nowadays I think was a recommendation by his editor "you know so Sakura can be through in her healing." There she just woke up so i doubt she realized her chest was hanging out. And in the short before the last where she had to hold down her breast or they would "float." Which to me seem that she was more embarrassed of her huge chest and anyone that may stare at it. Even the anime had her be the shy moe that who be to embarrassed to wear anything form fitting. Well other then at one time she was twelve so her fans could get a look at her sexy 12 year old body.

I clearly was, but then the ending was decided by executive and editorial mandate. So instead to once again spite them her gave him his current kitten hair cut.

You know the more I think about and especially after what Kubo pulled, I'm starting to believe that Kishi personally sabotaged his ending to spite Jump and SP

[LuckyChi7]

You know the more I think about and especially after what Kubo pulled, I'm starting to believe that Kishi personally sabotaged his ending to spite Jump and SP

That wouldn't surprise me actually.

[TheFirstEvil100]

All Pairings had a Chance????

 

 

Please. SS was dead, even as late as 693 Sasuke still cared nothing for Sakura and stabbed her through the heart to emphasize this. And even after the confession and the hand holding Who did Naruto say was his girlfriend to his father? SAKURA. Even in that abomination the Last they had to genjutsu the f out of Naruto who was still interested in Sakura in order to get him to finally pay attention to Hinata. Which is why they had to genjutsu the F out him AND  have Sakura tell him that he ONLY LOVED HER FOR SASUKE.

 

 

And let's get one thing clear, I'm not angry I'm just bolding these points for emphasis but do you want to know the real reason why the Last was made? It was to destroy all the buildup that NS had in order to make NH seem more believable. And it still failed. Which is why this idea that any couple was fair game is bull sh it. They had to destroy NS in order to make NH and SS CANON. They had to retcon it away.

A very good and very true post

 

again, I am not an NS fan, I have no attachment to the pairing, I have told you this multiple times but you want to be stupid, I am a story fan only, I would have supported nh if it was done right, I only support the one that makes the most sense to the story, so shut up. the point was you keep acting like a knowitall about which age group naruto is for when a person who lived in japan for a decade just told you that naruto is for teenagers in japan, not preteens or kids, so congrats on making yourself look like an idiot, proving even more you don't read any of our posts, if you're not gonna read our posts you have no reason to reply since all you spout is nonsense it seems....

 

will you just give it up already, we all know you're a troll, you're not doing a very good job at trolling either.....

That is true the pro ender fans are all kittening nuts they only think of one thing their pairing came true, going so far to say so much other BS I mean one being Sasuke getting to live, why cause we all need to feel sorry for this kitten I mean to me man Naruto is not a hero at least not a true hero.

 

 

I mean come on you all saw that and we all know how good Doctor who is I mean this show has lasted for over 50 years I mean me I do love when he lets his fun-loving kind side slip to show that he is a damaged and at times ruthless character. After all as he once said: "A good man does not need rules. Now is not the time to find out why I have so many"

 

Now The Family of Blood killed a few innocent adults & children while searching for the Doctor, for the Doctor who came back from the Time War, it's a sin far worse than everything else. And he feels guilty about them. Because he doesn't like when innocent who had a life before are involved. So yeah, like most heroes (even if The Doctor doesn't feel like he's one) he doesn't kill them, he makes the suffer enough for them to regret their dids, so he gives them immortality, in the most sad ways, to make sure, they don't like this. And they don't!

 

With the very last line from brother of mine as you all saw, "We wanted to live forever, so the Doctor made sure that we did." The Daleks, the Cybermen, the Sontarans...the Doctor was being merciful. Because he has to be. Because there's nothing more horrifying than righteous fury.

 

This is why Naruto is a poor Hero as her thinks with that stupid mind he has thinks all people are good that there is no evil at all that all things would have a sad past. What is there to Naruto a man who let killers and traitors go free cause he thinks there is good in people and a sucm bag who only cares for Sasuke and pretended to love someone.

 

The Doctor is a name, a title. the title of the man who survived the time war. A man who destroyed two of the greatest races in the universe including his own. A man that fights wars without raising a finger or weapon. A man who runs from his life and his time with nothing to hold on to. A Time Lord the final one in existence who lives with such hate, fear and fury. The Doctor, The oncoming storm, the destroyer of worlds, the protector of earth, A mad Man in a blue box. Who wouldn't be scared?

 

If you see the Doctor charging towards you and don't do a damned thing, if you plan on something and the Doctor is against it, and you brush it off, if you don't cower at the mention of his name, if your blood doesn't boil and your spine doesn't tingle as he stares you down... you don't know the first thing about being alive in this universe.

 

to me man this is where Naruto fails badly as he was just to up his own ass in thinking there was good in everyone.

[tricksie]

Sometimes I wonder if this was the real future Naruto that Kishi was shooting for:

 

 

Yeah, I think it had to be exactly what he was thinking. I mean, he drew it in the manga, and had Naruto daydreaming about being this older awesome shinobi - so we're gettingt that image and idea right from Kishimoto's own hand. 

 

The Naruto the grows up and marries Sakura? HE looks like this! /\

[Yyubie]

@TheFirstEvil100

It's like you and your friends come to a restaurant and your friends make a mistake by spilling coffee or food the waitress brought , your friends run away while you on the other hand must clean it up and pay for the bills and take responsibilities of your friends actions.

 

Like when Vegeta let Cell goes to absorb android 18 so he can get more power up because he is bored Cell too weak and he is too over confident his power will still above him, self proclaim himself as "SUPER" Vegeta, and in the end get humiliated by perfect cell, goku and the other z fighters got to clean his mess, trunks dead because of him and thanks to dragon ball he can be resurrect. Well at least Vegeta learn from his mistake when trunks died he goes berserk and charge cell, and at the end of buu arc he wants to kill fat buu because afraid of him gave birth to more evil buu.

 

Sasuke making mess and chaos all over the place and Naruto and Sakura got to clean it up. Attacking other village, hunting hachibi, joining criminals band aka akatsuki, his revolution kitten thingy, wanna kill all kages, want to kill bijuu. He is just to broken and gone too far. Naruto got discard his dignity and beg for raikage forgiveness while crying, Sakura gotta make difficult choice and mind broken because she knows the truth from Sai .....

 

You see when one man .... ONE kittening MAN make all this mess and kitten everywhere .... it's just disgusting .... you gotta clean your own kitten .... but these ????????

 All the people around them ended up suffering and what these guys did ???? NOTHING!!!!!

 

In the end  ??? they never take responsibilities for their actions and goes free without proper trial or punishment. I want people like this to die soo bad ...

Edited by Yyubie, 14 September 2016 - 09:04 PM.

[TheFirstEvil100]

@TheFirstEvil100

It's like you and your friends come to a restaurant and your friends make a mistake by spilling coffee or food the waitress brought , your friends run away while you on the other hand must clean it up and pay for the bills and take responsibilities of your friends actions.

 

Like when Vegeta let Cell goes to absorb android 18 so he can get more power up because he is bored Cell too weak and he is too over confident his power will still above him, self proclaim himself as "SUPER" Vegeta, and in the end get humiliated by perfect cell, goku and the other z fighters got to clean his mess, trunks dead because of him and thanks to dragon ball he can be resurrect. Well at least Vegeta learn from his mistake when trunks died he goes berserk and charge cell, and at the end of buu arc he wants to kill fat buu because afraid of him gave birth to more evil buu.

 

Sasuke making mess and chaos all over the place and Naruto and Sakura got to clean it up. Attacking other village, hunting hachibi, joining criminals band aka akatsuki, his revolution kitten thingy, wanna kill all kages, want to kill bijuu. He is just to broken and gone too far. Naruto got discard his dignity and beg for raikage forgiveness while crying, Sakura gotta make difficult choice and mind broken because she knows the truth from Sai .....

 

You see when one man .... ONE kittening MAN make all this mess and kitten everywhere .... it's just disgusting .... you gotta clean your own kitten .... but these ????????

 All the people around them ended up suffering and what these guys did ???? NOTHING!!!!!

 

In the end  ??? they never take responsibilities for their actions and goes free without proper trial or punishment. I want people like this to die soo bad ...

That is very true I mean what has Sasuke done to really and I mean really fixs all that kitten ups that he has done, nothing as far as we know I mean just how many people died because of Sasuke, and Naruto jusdt cried like a kitten Sasuke was ill or some bs like that I mean that is all Naruto ever did was say please Sasuke is not well he had a hard and suffered which once again I call BS on yet that prick double4 thinks since its fiction then its alright for what happened.

 

But we all need to remember that Kishi never cared about anyone else but the Uchiha clan which should not come as a shock really as we all know that Kishi loved the Uchiha above all else.

[Bail o' Lies]

I'm not sure how to take this line. So one of SJ manga ended after 40 years (Christ). Oda; "I'm in tears. Akimoto-sensei, You're finally free! You're FREEEEEEEEE!"

[Nostradamus]

I'm not sure how to take this line. So one of SJ manga ended after 40 years (Christ). Oda; "I'm in tears. Akimoto-sensei, You're finally free! You're FREEEEEEEEE!"

40 years of hell.

[TouKen4Life3g]

Oda can really relate to him.