4869 replies to this topic

[Jenskott]

Perhaps I'm being unfair, but...

IMO, and as far as I'm concerned, the current wave of Sakura-bashing is due to a single fact.

Anti-NS fans have been claiming for YEARS she would never stop loving Sasuke, not matter what crimes he commits, and she would always dump Naruto for Sasuke. Or Naruto would always be her second choice. Or she would always be pinning for Sasuke even if she dated/married Naruto.

They stated that claim over and again till they fully and wholeheartedly believed it. They wrote fanfics with that scenario. They drew fanarts with that scenario. They did that until they couldn't tell canon from fanon anymore.

And then, in the last two chapters, Sakura: a-) states outloud she loves Naruto; b-) chooses him over Sasuke and; c-) states she can't love Sasuke because he's a criminal (funny she is being called shallow and superficial cause that impressive display of brains, logic and common sense).

Sakura has single-handily ruined, destroyed and obliterated all their fantasies. And they can't take it.

Therefore, they bash her. It's impossible she loves Naruto because they have worked hard in convincing themselves it's impossible. Hence, she's lying. Hence, she's an evil <insert loooooong list of expletive words>.

Their ship has sunk and only jetsam and flotsam remain drifting on the sea. They cling to Naruto's words, the only piece of wood amidst of the ocean they can use to stay afloat, like if they were barnacles. They bend them and twist them until they become irrecognizable. "I hate people deludes themselves" somehow morphes into "You have lied to me and I hate you". And you know a "I love Hinata instead" will follow that warped sentence inevitably.

I'm sorry, but I doubt she's lying. What the point of writing that scene would be, then? And Naruto doesn't think she's consciously lying to him, either. He BELIEVES she wants believing what she's telling, but he believes she's deluding herself.

I don't think she's lying to herself. She DOES believe what she's telling. It's because THAT she gets mad when Naruto doesn't do it.

Do I believe her? Yes, I believe her when she tells she loves Naruto. Her character development, her profile in DB3, tons of scenes hinting her feelings were changing from the beginning of the history, and her confession -even if ill-worded- lead me to think that.

If she's deluding herself is when she tells Sasuke means nothing to her now. But that doesn't mean she still loves him, either. He was her teammate and friend and she can't cut that bond so easily, not matter how badly she wants.

RedDelicious, I get what you were trying doing. You used Hinata for trying and proving the behaviour, personality, words and thoughts of all characters can be twisted into something entirely different for the sake of character-bashing. We also can play that game with Hinata.

But we shall not do.

We shall only point out it can be done.

But, compared to other shounen mangas I have read, Naruto has a ton more romance than they do and, even more, the romance is closely related to major plot of the story.

I keep finding this misconception everywhere: Shonen means fights and no romance. That's untrue. There many shonen mangas with plenty romance or where romance is THE major plot of the story: Video Girl Ai, Oh! My Goddess, Touch!, Kimagure Orange Road, Maison Ikkoku, Love Hina...

One More thing, i don't think the creator of the series is ever going to make a couple in the actual anime, just for the fact that to many fan's would be mad at the choice, no matter what it was.

I seriously doubt Kishimoto cares for fan reaction.

He has nothing to do with the anime, regardless.

[Devil Keyz]

Wat episode did Sakura Say she loved naruto? and was it in shippuden? i REALLLY wanna see it lol.

[Lazy-Genius]

it was in the manga, chapter 469. The shippuden episodes haven't gotten there yet

[ciardha]

Perhaps I'm being unfair, but...

IMO, and as far as I'm concerned, the current wave of Sakura-bashing is due to a single fact.

Anti-NS fans have been claiming for YEARS she would never stop loving Sasuke, not matter what crimes he commits, and she would always dump Naruto for Sasuke. Or Naruto would always be her second choice. Or she would always be pinning for Sasuke even if she dated/married Naruto.

They stated that claim over and again till they fully and wholeheartedly believed it. They wrote fanfics with that scenario. They drew fanarts with that scenario. They did that until they couldn't tell canon from fanon anymore.

There's tons of so called narusaku fanfiction that has that exact premise, and I've said for years now that anyone who wrote Sakura that way had zero understanding of her character. It would be nice if all those fanfic writers who wrote Sakura that way in their fanfics would take them down now, and put up stories instead where she does love Naruto, does chose Naruto over Sasuke, lets go of the bonds to Sasuke more than Naruto does.

I knew Naruto would cling to his bond to Sasuke longer than Sakura did, after all "he never gives up". Sakura knows that, that's why she feels she must protect the man she loves and try to take down Sasuke without telling Naruto. (Ooh, subtle parallel to Tsunade not telling Jiraiya or Shizune her plan to kill Orochimaru on her own. Some elements are different, and Tsunade knocks them out, but it was done out of protecting them (and Naruto too) from Orochimaru. Wonder if Jiraiya's urgency to save Tsunade when he discovers what's she's done, and swiftly figured out why will be replayed with Naruto. Jiraiya figured out Tsunade was going to try to kill Orochimaru on her own and feared for her life.)

Another parallel with the Sanin was that Tsunade cut all her conscious bonds to Orochimaru before Jiraiya did. Tsunade knew Orochimaru was not to be trusted even before Hiruzen did (aha parallel with Kakashi still following the same path Naruto is about Sasuke) and clearly found it as hard as Jiraiya did to face reality about Orochimaru. Yet when Jiraiya and Tsunade learned about Orochimaru's death even with the knowledge of what a monster he'd become, they both looked sad, both mourned him a bit in their hearts. The team mate bond is like a family bond. Sakura is consciously trying to change the picture she has of Sasuke to reality, like Tsunade did with Orochimaru.

I keep finding this misconception everywhere: Shonen means fights and no romance. That's untrue. There many shonen mangas with plenty romance or where romance is THE major plot of the story: Video Girl Ai, Oh! My Goddess, Touch!, Kimagure Orange Road, Maison Ikkoku, Love Hina...

"Oh My Goddess" and "Maison Ikkoku" are Seinen (Men's) manga but yes it still holds true. Even in shonen action manga a romance can play a crucial part of the plot- like in "Rurouni Kenshin"- it's plotline is often centered around Kenshin finding his peaceful center through falling in love with the spirited Kaoru. (Sakura shows some similarities characterization wise with Kaoru and Naruto has some character personality similarities to Kenshin as well- especially when it comes to his interactions with Kaoru.)

Edited by ciardha, 13 November 2009 - 02:46 PM.

[Derock]

Even in shonen action manga a romance can play a crucial part of the plot- like in "Rurouni Kenshin"- it's plotline is often centered around Kenshin finding his peaceful center through falling in love with the spirited Kaoru. (Sakura shows some similarities characterization wise with Kaoru and Naruto has some character personality similarities to Kenshin as well- especially when it comes to his interactions with Kaoru.)

Thank you. Someone is also seeing the same thing I'm seeing in this series. When 469 spoilers came out, although at first I didn't want to believe the confession because it was rushed but then again, I realized that it was needed as part of the drama and development after I interpreted the chapter. And soon as I said that on the discussion, I figured out that NaruSaku is heading towards the same direction Kenshin and Kaoru had went through in Rurouni Kenshin for their romantic development. And soon enough when that series end, they became canon (and the baby means canon, definitely ). So this means, we're in a good direction (although, if they follow the exact same route, the Anti-NS/SS/NH are going to say something so crazy that makes me go at the end ).

[ciardha]

Thank you. Someone is also seeing the same thing I'm seeing in this series. When 469 spoilers came out, although at first I didn't want to believe the confession because it was rushed but then again, I realized that it was needed as part of the drama and development after I interpreted the chapter. And soon as I said that on the discussion, I figured out that NaruSaku is heading towards the same direction Kenshin and Kaoru had went through in Rurouni Kenshin for their romantic development. And soon enough when that series end, they became canon (and the baby means canon, definitely ). So this means, we're in a good direction (although, if they follow the exact same route, the Anti-NS/SS/NH are going to say something so crazy that makes me go at the end ).

I don't think it will happen, but I could possibly see a sort of Kenshin-like plot line where Madara stops Sasuke from killing Sakura, taking her hostage instead, with the reason (besides the obvious one of that getting Naruto to come to Sakura's rescue) being Madara's daughter ran off with Haruno man who was Sakura's great grandfather. Say the Haruno's were a very minor clan affiliated with the Senju's. The result of this union was a son (Sakura's grandfather) who had a very powerful defensive genjutsu ability, strong enough to defeat even Uchiha genjutsu (and the jacket seen in Sakura's room in part 1 was his). Sakura's father didn't have the ability and never rose above Genin level and he married a non ninja woman. But Sakura has inherited this ability. Madara sees Sakura as something the Uchiha need to take back from the Senju, both because of her ability and his anger at the Senju for "stealing" his daughter away. (Sakura would be so creeped out that Madara is her great great grandfather ;D

[Jenskott]

There's tons of so called narusaku fanfiction that has that exact premise, and I've said for years now that anyone who wrote Sakura that way had zero understanding of her character.

I utterly and wholeheartedly agree. And that's very obvious when you read chapter 236 and compare it with those fanfics:

Official storyline: Naruto returns Konoha without Sasuke. Sakura bolts towards Naruto's room in the hospital without ever asking about Sasuke. When she learns the truth, she tries smiling, cheering Naruto up and reassuring him. She states she
knows he has gone beyond his limits and he mustn't get worried about the promise. She never blames him. She tries getting him to drop the promise but he refuses.

Fanfiction: Sakura spends the whole time in Konoha pacing around like an angry panther and vowing killing Naruto if he has hurt "her" Sasuke-kun. When Naruto returns without Sasuke (or with an injured Sasuke), she blames him, insults him, beats him up, calls him a demon (despite she didn't know about the Fox)... Often she ceaselessly demands he fullfills the promise and even forces him to train in order to bring Sasuke-kun back. Or she punishes him in a ruthless way...

I read chapter 236 long before running into such... pieces of the finest literature. And IMO, it was evident that Fanfic Sakura is a construct inhabits the Sakura haters minds and bears absolutely no resemblance to Canon Sakura. And it was evident such construct was fabricated because they needed coming up with excuses for bashing her.

It would be nice if all those fanfic writers who wrote Sakura that way in their fanfics would take them down now, and put up stories instead where she does love Naruto, does chose Naruto over Sasuke, lets go of the bonds to Sasuke more than Naruto does.

Yes, it would be nice. But you know they won't do.

I knew Naruto would cling to his bond to Sasuke longer than Sakura did, after all "he never gives up".

That has been very obvious during the whole Part II, especially after Team 7's reunion in Orochimaru's lair.

Before that meeting, she was very determined to find and save Sasuke. After that confrontation, Naruto kept clinging to his severed bond stubbornly, whereas Sakura was less resolute and less eager. I would bet she realized back then that her ex-teammate was already completely caught in his insanity and trying redeeming him was too dangerous, and her dream (seeing Team 7 reunited) was just a dream.

Do you remember when Tsunade debriefed them about Orochimaru's death? She was obviously happy Sasuke's life was no longer jeopardized. But when the search party was leaving, she seemed sad and reluctant. Maybe she wanted finding and bringing Sasuke back for Naruto's sake, not hers.

But it has been too long, their ex-teammate is getting worse, and she has already run out of patience. She's willing facing reality and making Naruto facing it, too.

Unfortunately, Naruto was being too hard-headed.

"Oh My Goddess" and "Maison Ikkoku" are Seinen (Men's) manga but yes it still holds true.

I could have sworn they were shonen manga. It's ironical I made that mistake right as I was complaining about people mistaking genres. Now I'm feeling foolish.

However, my point stands. Sometimes I see people claiming Ranma 1/2 or Love Hina are shojo, or arguing Inu-Yasha should be classified as shojo manga...

It's curious because I don't see anybody claiming Magic Knight Rayearth, RG Veda, Fushigi Yuugi or Sailor Moon are shonen despite those mangas feature earth-shattering battles.

Even in shonen action manga a romance can play a crucial part of the plot- like in "Rurouni Kenshin"- it's plotline is often centered around Kenshin finding his peaceful center through falling in love with the spirited Kaoru. (Sakura shows some similarities characterization wise with Kaoru and Naruto has some character personality similarities to Kenshin as well- especially when it comes to his interactions with Kaoru.)

Rurouni Kenshin is one of my favorite mangas, but I know nothing about the fandom (nor I'm interested in it). I wonder if Kaoru is also routinely bashed, but I would not be shocked if she was. I remember someone telling "the Rurouni Kenshin OVAs (which narrate his youth, how he got conscripted, how he and Tomoe met...) show why Kenshin doesn't care for stupid, useless Kaoru".

EXCUSE ME? Kenshin NOT caring for Kaoru? Are we reading the same manga?????????

Thank you. Someone is also seeing the same thing I'm seeing in this series.

Indeed, it's nice. Sometimes when I peruse other fans comments, I seriously wonder if they are reading the same series than I do or an alternate series published in a parallel universe.

So this means, we're in a good direction (although, if they follow the exact same route, the Anti-NS/SS/NH are going to say something so crazy that makes me go at the end ).

So what? Don't listen to them. I never do. I'm not concerned about their wild theories. They can -and shall- tell whatever they want. It won't change the final outcome.

[Daniee]

If she's deluding herself is when she tells Sasuke means nothing to her now. But that doesn't mean she still loves him, either. He was her teammate and friend and she can't cut that bond so easily, not matter how badly she wants.

I'm not even quite sure she was lying to herself about that. The way I see it: She likes the Sasuke that was their friend and a member of Team 7. But hates the Sasuke that commits crimes, causes Naruto grief, and puts him in danger. With the way things are now, she's realized that it would probably be better for everyone if Sasuke was just taken out.

No doubt she would like it if the old Sasuke could return, but she cares way more about Naruto, and has decided that she has to put away any personal feelings and treat Sasuke like any other Akatsuki member. I guess we'll know more the next time she confronts him, but for now I say that if Sasuke were to be killed, she would mostly just feel bad for Naruto.

Even more strange, I recalled a shoujo manga I am reading that had an oddly similar problem develop between two characters. The boy loves the girl but the girl seems indifferent to him. The boy ignores his feelings in an effort to keep his friendship with the girl. The boy goes through something dramatic and the girl realizes she has feelings for him. The girl tries to deny her feelings, but she cannot help but get closer to the boy. The boy begins to have issues with an outside problem and begins to distance himself from the girl. This pushes the girl to actively try to help the boy as well as admit her feelings. She tries to help, but ends up seeming like a burden. The boy pushes her away out of worry for her while keeping his feelings a secret from her.

Oddly familiar

And.... how did it end?

[ciardha]

Rurouni Kenshin is one of my favorite mangas, but I know nothing about the fandom (nor I'm interested in it). I wonder if Kaoru is also routinely bashed, but I would not be shocked if she was. I remember someone telling "the Rurouni Kenshin OVAs (which narrate his youth, how he got conscripted, how he and Tomoe met...) show why Kenshin doesn't care for stupid, useless Kaoru".

EXCUSE ME? Kenshin NOT caring for Kaoru? Are we reading the same manga?????????

You want to know how insane that mentality can get? During the time Card Captor Sakura was only available in English by fansubbers there were some people who bashed Sakura Kinomoto saying what a "b" she was and that Syaoran should be with (the anime only character) Meiling- his cousin who was engaged to him.

Seriously, calling Sakura Kinomoto a "b"? That's nuts!

Miaka was also called a "selfish b" amongst certain parts of the Fushigi Yuugi online fans because- "she let Yue get attacked"- Say what?! It was constant "poor Yue" blah, blah, blah when Yue was willingly participating in trying to kill her best friend Miaka, who was risking her life to try to save Yue, while trying to fulfill her role as Suzuku no miko, etc... Yue even says when Miaka finally is able to save her that her (Yue's) entire motivation for all the terrible things she was she selfishly jealous of Miaka. There were fans so rabid with hatred for Miaka (and almost always they were Yue fans) they posted often about the violent ways they wanted her character to die!

I witnessed this in the Ranma 1/2 fandom too, the rabid Shampoo fans were the ones that posted the most rabid hatred against Akane (Ukyou fans tended to prefer Ukyou with Ryouga, and Kodachi was just too flaky to have very many fans) much of the same stuff you see about Sakura being violent was what Shampoo fans used against Akane. Never mind Ranma was at 16 still acting toward Akane like Jiraiya was to Tsunade at 12 or so.

[Devil Keyz]

it was in the manga, chapter 469. The shippuden episodes haven't gotten there yet

Well how many more episodes u think till that happens? i have yet to see any shippuden episodes but i plan on downloading them all. ( cant buy the DVD's in my country, none are available )

[catsi563]

only things i have to add are this. I still dont really understand where sasusaku fans even realistically imagine that their pairing ever had a chance in the first place.

I mean we talk about the pairing sinking or being sunk, but how do you sink a boat with no bottom?

naruto as Sasuke is the grand total reason why she fell in love with sasuke in the first place, and that moment is why sakura still needs to confront him one last time.

but honestly any rational person could see that the only moment of any romantic gravitas of all between them was Sasukes vague thank you when he left.

hell NaruHina has more of a base foundation then sasusaku did.

must be some of the same fanon logic that had katarra going head over heals gaga over Zuko in avatar when it was patently obvious from episode 1 who had fallen for who.

[Lazy-Genius]

Well how many more episodes u think till that happens? i have yet to see any shippuden episodes but i plan on downloading them all. ( cant buy the DVD's in my country, none are available )

Hard to say...probably anywhere between 30 and 40 episodes assuming the anime doesn't go into a filler arc again.

[catsi563]

probably close to that. if you figure the latest episode covered chapter 383 that leasves a roughly 88 chapter gap. take into account that each episode covers 1-2 chapters, and then add in another 15-20 episode filler arc in as more than likely and your looking at roughly 50-60 episodes before it catches up to Sakuras confession.

also that doent count any potential filler material added in for the sage training and Sasuke itachi fight or Pains naruto fights

[Devil Keyz]

Damn, cause its hard 2 tell if she's lyin' or not in the manga, on the anime it would be alot easier to tell.

[Froot]

Actually, Devil, they may totally misinterpret her intentions and twist it around so badly it's beyond recognition. ''I hate people who lie to themselves'' may become ''I hate you Sakura because you're always lying to me'' or make Sakura look even more dishonest.

Then again, we might get lucky and they could salvage some of that confession.

[catsi563]

I agree

if you compare the dubbed ti the subbed versions sometimes different voice actors and voice directors have different interpretations on both lines and the context of those lines and it comes through in that translation.

for example during the dubbed version of episode 17 Sakura is supposed to Say its you im worried about. thats what she says in the subtitles

but in the dubb she just says shes worried. the context of the scene was supposed to show her concern directly for Naruto, and yet it got los tintranslation somehow.

we have to look at her facial expressions when shes confessing. when shes telling him how she feels she is being honest the expression on ehr face is quite clear and is shown in a single panel to emphasize the expression. also her face is shown in a close up to denote a closeness to the reader which is done to empahsize intimacy in a situation.

when shes being dishonest or hiding something from him she has a clearly fake smile upon her face and her face is shown back away from the screen so to speak showing that shes distancing herself from the reader due to the dishonesty.

one scene I want to see is the feeding scene between Naruto and Sakura. because their is no mistaking those bedroom eyes shes giving him, that flirtatious expression and soft smile which says quite clearly that she likes him. Ill be curious to see how they do that one on top of Yamatos speach to sakura.

[Lazy-Genius]

Even if the anime team has seemed to support NH in the past, I don't think they would make that big of a change. Besides, they're even starting to show a shift towards NS in the recent episodes (especially in the omake of ep. 129)

[TwilightLink20xx]

^Umm, that's not a recent shift, L-G.

Guys, ever since Shippuden started, the Anime Team has always been extremely Pro-NS, it was only during the filler that they were pro-NaruHina. A lot of the omakes and the pre-existing NaruSaku moments were actually built upon by them, so one could easily assume that they will make it more positive than how it is presented here whenever they get to it, since the follow-up should have taken place by then.

[Froot]

You know, it's sad that we should even be worrying about the anime team making a biased decision
We can't even have objective animators. That's why I prefer the manga. What you see is what you get. Most of the time.

[Lazy-Genius]

What you see is what you get. Most of the time.

That's why I wish I could read Japanese. T_T