229 replies to this topic

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

 

I think you're misunderstanding things. I'm speaking from a storytelling standpoint, not an in-universe standpoint. There are plenty of ways to resolve Naruto surviving after having Kurama extracted from him without having Sakura heal him while still having the same impact on the plot and the characters. Maybe the Sage of Six Paths keeps Naruto and Sasuke alive. Maybe their willpower is that strong. From a storytelling standpoint, it didn't really amount to anything in the end. The narrative is the same. Naruto survives, Naruto and Sasuke fight Madara together. Naruto then goes to fight Sasuke.

 

As to the driving force in Naruto character arc, you're referring to the POAL presumably, but keep in mind that Kishimoto nullified the impact of that all the way back in chapter 470 when he had Naruto say that he wants to save Sasuke for himself rather than his promise to Sakura (utterly ridiculous,OOC and a massive retcon, but it is what it is). Not to mention that Sakura played no role in saving Sasuke, contrary to claiming that she and Naruto would do it together. The promise lost all meaning, hence making it and Sakura superfluous to the story.

 

Technically, a retcon of that retcon was done when Naruto told Kakashi was going to fight Sasuke because of his promise to Sakura, nothing about wanting to do it for himself. XP

[RedFaction]

 
Technically, a retcon of that retcon was done when Naruto told Kakashi was going to fight Sasuke because of his promise to Sakura, nothing about wanting to do it for himself. XP

I was inclined to believe he was doing all this for both him and Sakura. But the way it looks now is that it was all just for him. The promise he made to Sakura was just a scheme to try to make her like him, so he could "one up" Sasuke.

Horrible but everything points to that being the case now.

[ThroughWithLove]

Well, the way I had been interpreting it was that although Naruto wanted Sasuke to come back himself, what was DRIVING HIM so hard (out to the point of obsession) was the promise he made to Sakura. That at least makes some of his creepy behavior on the subject justifiable, redeemable and romantic. It also fleshes out his character as far as what his nindo actually means to him However, by making it to where the POAL is no big deal at all, Naruto's obsession with saving Sasuke is downright creepy. Getting your assed kick just because someone spoke ill of him, hyperventilating, begging on your hands and knees? That's just downright mental. And if we consider the implications of him only liking Sakura as a means to get to Sasuke (endlessly asking her out on dates, telling Sai he loved her, nearly getting his face caved in and nearly dying against Gaara), that even makes him more insane, more pathetic and less redeemable. Just to the point where you're thinking that NaruSasu is a pretty valid pairing after all.

Edited by ThroughWithLove, 16 September 2015 - 02:32 AM.

[Tiller]

Well, the way I had been interpreting it was that although Naruto wanted Sasuke to come back himself, what was DRIVING HIM so hard (out to the point of obsession) was the promise he made to Sakura. That at least makes some of his creepy behavior on the subject justifiable, redeemable and romantic. It also fleshes out his character as far as what his nindo actually means to him However, by making it to where the POAL is no big deal at all, Naruto's obsession with saving Sasuke is downright creepy. Getting your assed kick just because someone spoke ill of him, hyperventilating, begging on your hands and knees? That's just downright mental. And if we consider the implications of him only liking Sakura as a means to get to Sasuke (endlessly asking her out on dates, telling Sai he loved her, nearly getting his face caved in and nearly dying against Gaara), that even makes him more insane, more pathetic and less redeemable. Just to the point where you're thinking that NaruSasu is a pretty valid pairing after all.

 

Yup.... honestly SN is about the only pairing that may have more to complain about then us. Canon wise there is no reason Sasuke and Naruto shouldn't be together. Hell Sasuke seems to have more communication with Naruto then he does his "wife" who he abandoned for  a decade.

 

Naruto's drive only really makes sense if it's a combination of him wanting to save Sasuke, and him doing it for the woman he loves. As you said, since it's now "canon" that Naruto never liked Sakura really and was only trying to get in her pants to hurt Sasuke's feelings you begin to realize something.... canon wise.. Naruto is kitten insane and a true stalker.....

 

Which may explain why in Kishimoto's mind Hinata and Naruto being together makes sense. They have so much in common. Naruto altered his life story in order to stalk Sasuke and control his life, Hinata stalked Naruto for much the same reason. He must have seen a person of his own spirit in her.

 

Of course for those of us who read this story before it became a Bizzaro world none of this makes sense. None of the character drives make sense anymore, and the retcons don't make it any easier to understand. We just have to accept the simplest of facts in the end.... the story is broken, it can not be fixed, and there is nothing we can do about it. All we can do is write stories the return the format to how it was. There is nothing else to do.

[tricksie]

 

Yup.... honestly SN is about the only pairing that may have more to complain about then us. Canon wise there is no reason Sasuke and Naruto shouldn't be together. Hell Sasuke seems to have more communication with Naruto then he does his "wife" who he abandoned for  a decade.

 

Naruto's drive only really makes sense if it's a combination of him wanting to save Sasuke, and him doing it for the woman he loves. As you said, since it's now "canon" that Naruto never liked Sakura really and was only trying to get in her pants to hurt Sasuke's feelings you begin to realize something.... canon wise.. Naruto is batshit insane and a true stalker.....

 

Which may explain why in Kishimoto's mind Hinata and Naruto being together makes sense. They have so much in common. Naruto altered his life story in order to stalk Sasuke and control his life, Hinata stalked Naruto for much the same reason. He must have seen a person of his own spirit in her.

 

Of course for those of us who read this story before it became a Bizzaro world none of this makes sense. None of the character drives make sense anymore, and the retcons don't make it any easier to understand. We just have to accept the simplest of facts in the end.... the story is broken, it can not be fixed, and there is nothing we can do about it. All we can do is write stories the return the format to how it was. There is nothing else to do.

 

Yes - so true on all counts. Since the ending, Naruto looks just as stalkerish toward Sasuke as Hinata always did towards Naruto throughout the whole manga. 

 

But I don't think that's why it made sense for Kishimoto to put Naruto and Hinata together at the end. I think he just no longer cared. HInata was what the fans and the people around him wanted (manga and SP), so he gave them what they wanted — an NH ending — without doing any work to set it up. He didn't change the story, just ended it that way.

 

And yeah, the rest of us who read it for the story lost out in the end. Because none of it will ever make sense. The themes were abandoned, the character motivations forgotten and the parallels turned over. You're right: the story is just broken. 

[Nate River]

I would say this is called the fanboy syndrome. When you are a fanboy of someone or something you ignore everything bad about that someone or something. And make excuses for that someone or something being the way he/she/it is.

Fanboy Syndrome? C'mon. That type of behavior is common to all types of fans of anything. Men do it, women do it, chilren do it, and goes so far beyond anime. The old say about Rose-colored glasses is based on this impulse. When you support something you tend to emphasize the good point at the expense of the bad.

[Nar123]

Fanboy Syndrome? C'mon. That type of behavior is common to all types of fans of anything. Men do it, women do it, chilren do it, and goes so far beyond anime. The old say about Rose-colored glasses is based on this impulse. When you support something you tend to emphasize the good point at the expense of the bad.

 

That's true, unfortunately

[Nate River]

Yup.... honestly SN is about the only pairing that may have more to complain about then us. Canon wise there is no reason Sasuke and Naruto shouldn't be together. Hell Sasuke seems to have more communication with Naruto then he does his "wife" who he abandoned for  a decade.

I disagree. Not all close friendships are subtext for romances. This is a fandom impulse that has bugged me for sometime. Naruto's behavior on this point is within his character. Naruto is a character who had massive problems even forming basic relationships, especially with his peers. He particularly identifies and sympathizes with Sasuke's own struggles. It makes sense he'd hold on as tight as possible.

Sakura is distinguishable because (1) she never flees and (2) he made a promise to her. The series from the get go establishes he takes those VERY seriously. It's entirely within he'd fail to act because he couldn't fulfill that promise, especially when combined with his behavior in the hospital. I think that made a lasting imprint on him. Of course, this doesn't excuse Naruto's failure to hold anyone accountable. Doing so is not mutually exclusive to his goal.

What bothers me is that everyone in the story, except for the Sakura's confession, accepts his behavior as "the right thing to do." That it is the right thing is mostly assumed by the story without justify it. Sakura makes an emotional appeal and never suggests track was wrong. Ei is just the lame as foil who is portrayed as wrong the second he opens his mouth. It's never serious.

The series ignores the obvious favoritism (who the village indulge Shino is his bed bud had done this) and blatant violation of the series's own internal rules (why weren't hunter nin's after him---it's never explained).
 

Naruto's drive only really makes sense if it's a combination of him wanting to save Sasuke, and him doing it for the woman he loves. As you said, since it's now "canon" that Naruto never liked Sakura really and was only trying to get in her pants to hurt Sasuke's feelings you begin to realize something.... canon wise.. Naruto is kitten insane and a true stalker.....

This was inexcusable. It's a mystery why he couldn't just have had them be big boys and girls. She not interested him like that (regardless of whether she likes someone else or not) at this point and while she is still his friend it's not romantic. Naruto has already been shown to be able to deal with that situation. It's the conclusion he appears to come to in the hospital scene where he elevates her happiness over his own. There we go, done. At least Naruto could have been salvaged a tiny bit. Instead, Naruto is portrayed as a petty kitten in complete contradiction to his part 1&2 behavior.

And gets better. When did Sakura realize this and not address it sooner? It comes across that she sat on this for years when Hinata, the girl he likes, has been pinning over him the whole time and the reciprocation that is hinted at is ongoing through part 2 (if you can to call what he does reciprocation). It makes her use of his feeling all the worse in Part 2. She doesn't have a duty, but at least as his friend, if she knows this why not steer him that way sooner.
 

Which may explain why in Kishimoto's mind Hinata and Naruto being together makes sense. They have so much in common. Naruto altered his life story in order to stalk Sasuke and control his life, Hinata stalked Naruto for much the same reason. He must have seen a person of his own spirit in her.

I agree with tricksie. They decided this was the route, picked it, made token gestures, but overall really didn't care that much whether it worked internally or not.

[ThroughWithLove]

I disagree. Not all close friendships are subtext for romances. This is a fandom impulse that has bugged me for sometime. Naruto's behavior on this point is within his character. Naruto is a character who had massive problems even forming basic relationships, especially with his peers. He particularly identifies and sympathizes with Sasuke's own struggles. It makes sense he'd hold on as tight as possible.
 

 

Keep in mind we're observing things from the standpoint of the canonical ending here, not just the parts where everything didn't yet collapse unto itself. If we're to accept this idea that Naruto was pursuing Sakura all along simply to get to Sasuke, then that's not something we can simply view as the result of close friendship. Rather, that's unheroic. That's selfish. That's psychopathic. That means he led Sakura on, guilt tripped her into risking her life and just about dying all so that he could get to Sasuke. That doesn't even make him a close friend as a real friend wouldn't do that. There are a host of fictional villains who have had similar motivations, many of whom in fact were in romantically obsessed with the protagonist (i.e. "if I can't have you, nobody can!!!"). As long as we're not taking into account that the author is a hack, NaruSasu is a pretty fair conclusion.

Edited by ThroughWithLove, 16 September 2015 - 06:16 PM.

[Nar123]

I disagree. Not all close friendships are subtext for romances. This is a fandom impulse that has bugged me for sometime. Naruto's behavior on this point is within his character. Naruto is a character who had massive problems even forming basic relationships, especially with his peers. He particularly identifies and sympathizes with Sasuke's own struggles. It makes sense he'd hold on as tight as possible.
 

 

Except that this is not the case with SNS

Look, I don't really like the pairing but it's undeniable that the fanservice and the many moments to pander most of the fujoshi are there

 

It got to the point where even casual fans friends of mine were joking about Naruto's obsession with Sasuke

Edited by Nar123, 16 September 2015 - 06:20 PM.

[Nate River]

Except that this is not the case with SNS
Look, I don't really like the pairing but it's undeniable that the fanservice and the many moments to pander most of the fujoshi are there
 
It got to the point where even casual fans friends of mine were joking about Naruto's obsession with Sasuke

Oh, I agree that he was baiting them, but I cannot recall a lot of those fans ever thinking they'd get it. I still don't see how they got screwed through.

He gave them fanservice, but the story never suggested that there was any romantic interest on either side.

EDIT: I don't really care about the pairing, I'm disputing that they got screwed.

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

 

Yes - so true on all counts. Since the ending, Naruto looks just as stalkerish toward Sasuke as Hinata always did towards Naruto throughout the whole manga. 

 

But I don't think that's why it made sense for Kishimoto to put Naruto and Hinata together at the end. I think he just no longer cared. HInata was what the fans and the people around him wanted (manga and SP), so he gave them what they wanted — an NH ending — without doing any work to set it up. He didn't change the story, just ended it that way.

 

And yeah, the rest of us who read it for the story lost out in the end. Because none of it will ever make sense. The themes were abandoned, the character motivations forgotten and the parallels turned over. You're right: the story is just broken. 

 

Yeah, I know what you mean, Tricksie. I only kept reading because I had hope things would get better, babe... in the end, I should have quit while I was ahead if I knew things were gonna turn as crappy as they had turned out in the end because Kishi didn't care anymore. ~_~

[Lady Lys]

Ohhh! I like this thread! And I do hereby inform you to prepare yourselves - run you fools! - for what will be a LAP

 

I think we can analyze the whole mess in two ways:

 

1- Blame the author don't blame the characters, and this is all fine and dandy but after we've said that Kishimoto is a terrible horrible god-awful writer who can't even remain consistent to its bigger plots point we are not left with much else to say but continuing critiquing the author.

 

2- Try analyzing the behavior of the different characters as if they were almost - but not quite - real. I do actually prefer this one, even if we have to deal with some apparent schizophrenic behaviors, it is definitely more interesting and can be expanded and played with much much more.

 

 

 

Rather than blaming Sakura I'd be much happier to see people frustrated with her behavior. There were some great posts few pages back - but alas I'm too lazy to go back and quote them, do pardon me for that - with which I agreed completely.

 

Getting very frustrated with Sakura's behavior is fine, and even right, but blaming her? Not at all. It's exactly like blaming an abused woman in RL - with all the due differences between fiction and reality of course - someone who's sense of worth is literally zero and that, if we follow Naruto's storyline, no one really encouraged to put things in perspective and see how dangerous and toxic that person was for her.

 

I seriously don't remember anyone, not her family, not Naruto, not Ino or Kakashi or Tsunade or whoever else, telling her to really take a step back and analyze her behavior and realize how bad Sasuke's influence was impacting on her self esteem and her person in general.

 

In this she's very much like a dog, no puns or malice intended, but as a dog gets positive reinforcement for its 'good behavior' so did Sakura, she got 'positive' reinforcement too, because there is this toxic mentality of 'enduring' and so, good girl, endure it, endure it all, atta girl! Have a cookie!

 

I do believe she'd have some obvious self-worth and self-esteem problems, as said in a previous brilliant post, and that's the POINT of her character, because becoming 'stronger' doesn't simply mean learning to shatter the earth with a punch or becoming a physically stronger and deadlier shinobi, she had to overcome her psychological problems. We, I, thought she did, but nope apparently she tired, she almost did it, she was there, but she didn't succeed (we can thank the all-mighty 'pen-holder' for last the minute out-of-the-blue changes here).

 

That's why I'm a bit perplexed by what some people say, I do understand and agree that she isn't blameless, saying that would be stupid, but the 'she made her bed, now she should lie in it' attitude is a bit cruel, at least imho. I pity her, I pity her very much, she's stuck in a ugly situation and she doesn't have the strength the psychological fortitude, or even the stimuli and the help, to get out of it.

 

When dealing with a situation such as hers it's easy for a 'stranger' to think she should get out of it, that the decision to get out of 'it' should be an easy one to take, but in truth when one is in the loop it is not easy to get out of it, especially if she lives in an environment that doesn't help her at all, and that is even detrimental as it pushes her in the exact opposite direction.

 

As for guilt-tripping Sasuke.....(she might have tried, I honestly don't remember and should go back to check the chapters, but I'd actually rather go gurgle some turpentine) I don't see how that would even come to be, I mean, he really really doesn't give a fig about her, she could be hysterically threatening to fling herself off the Hokage mountain and he wouldn't spare her a second thought. Those two, as they were developed by the author, are clearly WRONG for each other, a proper textbook case of toxic relationship.

 

As for the issue of Sakura's fan defending her until and beyond reason, you are right - I just spent one odd hour trying to psychoanalyze her behavior into something that makes sense and this must account to something - you are absolutely right! But as said before it's because many of us perceive she's been given, again and as always, the shortest end of the stick and in that ends-backward finale, hers is the really sad story.

 

Hinata has all she ever wanted even if she lacks the grey matter to understand that her 'ending' was quite pathetic, and Naruto, if he de-glues his bum from the Hokage's chair, has a super-moe subservient (scarf-knitting and cake-baking) wife that thinks the sun shines out of his as* and two healthy children, however ugly and unlikeable. He has a family, he has his position as the Hokage, and apparently he's still in contact and in good relations with Sasuke. That's pretty much all Naruto wanted, even if the girl is the wrong one and all seems kind of 'wrong'. Everyone else in Konoha is married and eventually spawns children and, unrealistic, cavity-inducing and cliché as it sounds is mostly happy.

 

And Sakura is still the practically single-mom housewife, with loans on her back and a Houdini-esque husband, whom she hadn't even seen for 13 years before the start of Gaiden and who goes away again just the day after returning for the first time, and he didn't even return all that willingly, but came back due to circumstances out of his own control......

 

Peeps, sincerely, as the super-corny, unrealistic, cavity-inducing and cliché finale....one must admit hers kind of sucks. This is what I perceived from Naruto 700 and onwards, it might very well be my interpretation of things, but be as it might be I do truly think it sucks, and that's why I'm frustrated with and aggravated by Sakura, that's why I pity her, but blaming? Nah.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Or we could simply say that this is all Kishi's fault, but that would mean I spent an hour writing about nothing....

 

And where would be the fun in that? And more importantly, this fandom and this place, practically a year after 'THE THING', should be more or less deserted because after some time talking about how bad of a writer Kishimoto is - and I do think he is bad, I do, I do, I do - there would be simply nothing more left to talk and debate about, and honestly I'd rather see this place not abandoned.

 

Now, I'm beat and I'll happily march off to bed. I hope the english wasn't too contorted, and G'night/G'day/G'afternoon to Y'all. 

[Nar123]

Ohhh! I like this thread! And I do hereby inform you to prepare yourselves - run you fools! - for what will be a LAP

 

I think we can analyze the whole mess in two ways:

 

1- Blame the author don't blame the characters, and this is all fine and dandy but after we've said that Kishimoto is a terrible horrible god-awful writer who can't even remain consistent to its bigger plots point we are not left with much else to say but continuing critiquing the author.

 

2- Try analyzing the behavior of the different characters as if they were almost - but not quite - real. I do actually prefer this one, even if we have to deal with some apparent schizophrenic behaviors, it is definitely more interesting and can be expanded and played with much much more.

 

 

 

Rather than blaming Sakura I'd be much happier to see people frustrated with her behavior. There were some great posts few pages back - but alas I'm too lazy to go back and quote them, do pardon me for that - with which I agreed completely.

 

Getting very frustrated with Sakura's behavior is fine, and even right, but blaming her? Not at all. It's exactly like blaming an abused woman in RL - with all the due differences between fiction and reality of course - someone who's sense of worth is literally zero and that, if we follow Naruto's storyline, no one really encouraged to put things in perspective and see how dangerous and toxic that person was for her.

 

I seriously don't remember anyone, not her family, not Naruto, not Ino or Kakashi or Tsunade or whoever else, telling her to really take a step back and analyze her behavior and realize how bad Sasuke's influence was impacting on her self esteem and her person in general.

 

In this she's very much like a dog, no puns or malice intended, but as a dog gets positive reinforcement for its 'good behavior' so did Sakura, she got 'positive' reinforcement too, because there is this toxic mentality of 'enduring' and so, good girl, endure it, endure it all, atta girl! Have a cookie!

 

I do believe she'd have some obvious self-worth and self-esteem problems, as said in a previous brilliant post, and that's the POINT of her character, because becoming 'stronger' doesn't simply mean learning to shatter the earth with a punch or becoming a physically stronger and deadlier shinobi, she had to overcome her psychological problems. We, I, thought she did, but nope apparently she tired, she almost did it, she was there, but she didn't succeed (we can thank the all-mighty 'pen-holder' for last the minute out-of-the-blue changes here).

 

That's why I'm a bit perplexed by what some people say, I do understand and agree that she isn't blameless, saying that would be stupid, but the 'she made her bed, now she should lie in it' attitude is a bit cruel, at least imho. I pity her, I pity her very much, she's stuck in a ugly situation and she doesn't have the strength the psychological fortitude, or even the stimuli and the help, to get out of it.

 

When dealing with a situation such as hers it's easy for a 'stranger' to think she should get out of it, that the decision to get out of 'it' should be an easy one to take, but in truth when one is in the loop it is not easy to get out of it, especially if she lives in an environment that doesn't help her at all, and that is even detrimental as it pushes her in the exact opposite direction.

 

As for guilt-tripping Sasuke.....(she might have tried, I honestly don't remember and should go back to check the chapters, but I'd actually rather go gurgle some turpentine) I don't see how that would even come to be, I mean, he really really doesn't give a fig about her, she could be hysterically threatening to fling herself off the Hokage mountain and he wouldn't spare her a second thought. Those two, as they were developed by the author, are clearly WRONG for each other, a proper textbook case of toxic relationship.

 

As for the issue of Sakura's fan defending her until and beyond reason, you are right - I just spent one odd hour trying to psychoanalyze her behavior into something that makes sense and this must account to something - you are absolutely right! But as said before it's because many of us perceive she's been given, again and as always, the shortest end of the stick and in that ends-backward finale, hers is the really sad story.

 

Hinata has all she ever wanted even if she lacks the grey matter to understand that her 'ending' was quite pathetic, and Naruto, if he de-glues his bum from the Hokage's chair, has a super-moe subservient (scarf-knitting and cake-baking) wife that thinks the sun shines out of his as* and two healthy children, however ugly and unlikeable. He has a family, he has his position as the Hokage, and apparently he's still in contact and in good relations with Sasuke. That's pretty much all Naruto wanted, even if the girl is the wrong one and all seems kind of 'wrong'. Everyone else in Konoha is married and eventually spawns children and, unrealistic, cavity-inducing and cliché as it sounds is mostly happy.

 

And Sakura is still the practically single-mom housewife, with loans on her back and a Houdini-esque husband, whom she hadn't even seen for 13 years before the start of Gaiden and who goes away again just the day after returning for the first time, and he didn't even return all that willingly, but came back due to circumstances out of his own control......

 

Peeps, sincerely, as the super-corny, unrealistic, cavity-inducing and cliché finale....one must admit hers kind of sucks. This is what I perceived from Naruto 700 and onwards, it might very well be my interpretation of things, but be as it might be I do truly think it sucks, and that's why I'm frustrated with and aggravated by Sakura, that's why I pity her, but blaming? Nah.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Or we could simply say that this is all Kishi's fault, but that would mean I spent an hour writing about nothing....

 

And where would be the fun in that? And more importantly, this fandom and this place, practically a year after 'THE THING', should be more or less deserted because after some time talking about how bad of a writer Kishimoto is - and I do think he is bad, I do, I do, I do - there would be simply nothing more left to talk and debate about, and honestly I'd rather see this place not abandoned.

 

Now, I'm beat and I'll happily march off to bed. I hope the english wasn't too contorted, and G'night/G'day/G'afternoon to Y'all. 

 

I was kinda completely on the side of blaming Sakura before this

You managed put a new perspective onto things, thank you

 

 I think she had an amazing potential as a character...too bad Kishi screwed her up

Edited by Nar123, 17 September 2015 - 01:21 AM.

[Lady Lys]

 

I was kinda completely on the side of blaming Sakura before this

You managed put a new perspective onto things, thank you

 

 I think she had an amazing potential as a character...too bad Kishi screwed her up

 

I'm very very happy I was able to give you some food for thought. :DDDD

 

 

She had indeed! Great things could have been done with her but apparently the author, the animation studio and a larger part of the fandom, lacked the sensibility to understand and develop this.

 

But on a happier note we can proudly say we have some amazingly talented fiction writers that do understand it and showcase it perfectly in their works (and they are awesome and should be thanked at every opportunity).

[Niky]

Ohhh! I like this thread! And I do hereby inform you to prepare yourselves - run you fools! - for what will be a LAP

 

I think we can analyze the whole mess in two ways:

 

1- Blame the author don't blame the characters, and this is all fine and dandy but after we've said that Kishimoto is a terrible horrible god-awful writer who can't even remain consistent to its bigger plots point we are not left with much else to say but continuing critiquing the author.

 

2- Try analyzing the behavior of the different characters as if they were almost - but not quite - real. I do actually prefer this one, even if we have to deal with some apparent schizophrenic behaviors, it is definitely more interesting and can be expanded and played with much much more.

 

 

 

Rather than blaming Sakura I'd be much happier to see people frustrated with her behavior. There were some great posts few pages back - but alas I'm too lazy to go back and quote them, do pardon me for that - with which I agreed completely.

 

Getting very frustrated with Sakura's behavior is fine, and even right, but blaming her? Not at all. It's exactly like blaming an abused woman in RL - with all the due differences between fiction and reality of course - someone who's sense of worth is literally zero and that, if we follow Naruto's storyline, no one really encouraged to put things in perspective and see how dangerous and toxic that person was for her.

 

I seriously don't remember anyone, not her family, not Naruto, not Ino or Kakashi or Tsunade or whoever else, telling her to really take a step back and analyze her behavior and realize how bad Sasuke's influence was impacting on her self esteem and her person in general.

 

In this she's very much like a dog, no puns or malice intended, but as a dog gets positive reinforcement for its 'good behavior' so did Sakura, she got 'positive' reinforcement too, because there is this toxic mentality of 'enduring' and so, good girl, endure it, endure it all, atta girl! Have a cookie!

 

I do believe she'd have some obvious self-worth and self-esteem problems, as said in a previous brilliant post, and that's the POINT of her character, because becoming 'stronger' doesn't simply mean learning to shatter the earth with a punch or becoming a physically stronger and deadlier shinobi, she had to overcome her psychological problems. We, I, thought she did, but nope apparently she tired, she almost did it, she was there, but she didn't succeed (we can thank the all-mighty 'pen-holder' for last the minute out-of-the-blue changes here).

 

That's why I'm a bit perplexed by what some people say, I do understand and agree that she isn't blameless, saying that would be stupid, but the 'she made her bed, now she should lie in it' attitude is a bit cruel, at least imho. I pity her, I pity her very much, she's stuck in a ugly situation and she doesn't have the strength the psychological fortitude, or even the stimuli and the help, to get out of it.

 

When dealing with a situation such as hers it's easy for a 'stranger' to think she should get out of it, that the decision to get out of 'it' should be an easy one to take, but in truth when one is in the loop it is not easy to get out of it, especially if she lives in an environment that doesn't help her at all, and that is even detrimental as it pushes her in the exact opposite direction.

 

As for guilt-tripping Sasuke.....(she might have tried, I honestly don't remember and should go back to check the chapters, but I'd actually rather go gurgle some turpentine) I don't see how that would even come to be, I mean, he really really doesn't give a fig about her, she could be hysterically threatening to fling herself off the Hokage mountain and he wouldn't spare her a second thought. Those two, as they were developed by the author, are clearly WRONG for each other, a proper textbook case of toxic relationship.

 

As for the issue of Sakura's fan defending her until and beyond reason, you are right - I just spent one odd hour trying to psychoanalyze her behavior into something that makes sense and this must account to something - you are absolutely right! But as said before it's because many of us perceive she's been given, again and as always, the shortest end of the stick and in that ends-backward finale, hers is the really sad story.

 

Hinata has all she ever wanted even if she lacks the grey matter to understand that her 'ending' was quite pathetic, and Naruto, if he de-glues his bum from the Hokage's chair, has a super-moe subservient (scarf-knitting and cake-baking) wife that thinks the sun shines out of his as* and two healthy children, however ugly and unlikeable. He has a family, he has his position as the Hokage, and apparently he's still in contact and in good relations with Sasuke. That's pretty much all Naruto wanted, even if the girl is the wrong one and all seems kind of 'wrong'. Everyone else in Konoha is married and eventually spawns children and, unrealistic, cavity-inducing and cliché as it sounds is mostly happy.

 

And Sakura is still the practically single-mom housewife, with loans on her back and a Houdini-esque husband, whom she hadn't even seen for 13 years before the start of Gaiden and who goes away again just the day after returning for the first time, and he didn't even return all that willingly, but came back due to circumstances out of his own control......

 

Peeps, sincerely, as the super-corny, unrealistic, cavity-inducing and cliché finale....one must admit hers kind of sucks. This is what I perceived from Naruto 700 and onwards, it might very well be my interpretation of things, but be as it might be I do truly think it sucks, and that's why I'm frustrated with and aggravated by Sakura, that's why I pity her, but blaming? Nah.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Or we could simply say that this is all Kishi's fault, but that would mean I spent an hour writing about nothing....

 

And where would be the fun in that? And more importantly, this fandom and this place, practically a year after 'THE THING', should be more or less deserted because after some time talking about how bad of a writer Kishimoto is - and I do think he is bad, I do, I do, I do - there would be simply nothing more left to talk and debate about, and honestly I'd rather see this place not abandoned.

 

Now, I'm beat and I'll happily march off to bed. I hope the english wasn't too contorted, and G'night/G'day/G'afternoon to Y'all. 

 

  This... This is...

 

 

Lady Lys... You are the best!

 

And to think that the SS fanartists depict this couple as safe, comfortable and loving ( ) and even with a second, loved, pink haired child ... 

And yes, I am frustated with these farces, particularly when I find them in the places (sites, blogs, tumblrs, forums...) I don't expect they are.

Edited by Niky, 17 September 2015 - 10:17 AM.

[Lady Lys]

 

  This... This is...

 

 

Lady Lys... You are the best!

 

And to think that the SS fanartists depict this couple as safe, comfortable and loving ( ) and even with a second, loved, pink haired child ... 

And yes, I am frustated with these farces, particularly when I find them in the places (sites, blogs, tumblrs, forums...) I don't expect they are.

Awwww!!!   Thank you Niky! Sei un tesoro! 

 

Eh, what do you know, they are masters of selective reading!! (But of course! They are everywhere!!!! But we know better!!   )

[tricksie]

I disagree. Not all close friendships are subtext for romances. This is a fandom impulse that has bugged me for sometime. Naruto's behavior on this point is within his character. Naruto is a character who had massive problems even forming basic relationships, especially with his peers. He particularly identifies and sympathizes with Sasuke's own struggles. It makes sense he'd hold on as tight as possible.

Sakura is distinguishable because (1) she never flees and (2) he made a promise to her. The series from the get go establishes he takes those VERY seriously. It's entirely within he'd fail to act because he couldn't fulfill that promise, especially when combined with his behavior in the hospital. I think that made a lasting imprint on him. Of course, this doesn't excuse Naruto's failure to hold anyone accountable. Doing so is not mutually exclusive to his goal.

What bothers me is that everyone in the story, except for the Sakura's confession, accepts his behavior as "the right thing to do." That it is the right thing is mostly assumed by the story without justify it. Sakura makes an emotional appeal and never suggests track was wrong. Ei is just the lame as foil who is portrayed as wrong the second he opens his mouth. It's never serious.

The series ignores the obvious favoritism (who the village indulge Shino is his bed bud had done this) and blatant violation of the series's own internal rules (why weren't hunter nin's after him---it's never explained).

Up until the ending, Naruto's treatment and bond with Sasuke was still redeemable for me. But then, I envisioned Naruto finally landing Sakura and being able to stand opposite Sasuke as an equal. I never saw Sasuke as having a future within the village, having a relationship or family, or even being deserving of one. This was never his goal, and he only expressed his extreme dislike for those institutions/values. 

 

But the ending saw none of those things. Naruto and Sasuke's issues were unresolved, and all relationships were fraught with problems.

 

I have a confession: I hate Sasuke. I really do. As the fandom portrays Sasuke, he's not so bad. But in the manga? Nope. Can't stand him. His few weak attempts at teamwork in Part 1, his unapologizing betrayal in Part 2, and his murderous intent and insulting pov during the rest of the war arc up to the end could have all been whitewashed and redeemed had Naruto ever once stood up to him, held him accountable or made him apologize for at least his treatment of Team 7. If only that bond was restored — that bond that has been touted for 15 years as being the most important of the manga — but it wasn't. Sasuke gets off better than scott-free: he faces no punishment or censure from anyone, he doesn't have to mend his friendship with Naruto and he gets Sakura!!

 

With the slapdash ending, they took the whole purpose out of the manga. I wouldn't judge the story by the ending because then none of it makes sense. The only thing that does is that the story that was Naruto, the manga, was left unresolved so that the next Naruto project could begin, unimpeded and on time to coincide with Hinata's movie, the novels, and Bolt's story.

 

 

 

Yeah, I know what you mean, Tricksie. I only kept reading because I had hope things would get better, babe... in the end, I should have quit while I was ahead if I knew things were gonna turn as crappy as they had turned out in the end because Kishi didn't care anymore. ~_~

I had hope up until I saw the panel with Sakura speaking to Sasuke, asking him to stay (or if she could go with him). Up until that moment, I hoped that there would be a way out of this that I just couldn't yet see. Unfortunately, it was just a bait and switch to drum up publicity for their new phase. It doesn't mean the story that came before was trash...just that I should have known that Kishi had stopped caring at some point in the war arc, when the writing and story really became stale and formulaic. At that point, I should have been certain that it was over, instead of still holding out hope.

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

Up until the ending, Naruto's treatment and bond with Sasuke was still redeemable for me. But then, I envisioned Naruto finally landing Sakura and being able to stand opposite Sasuke as an equal. I never saw Sasuke as having a future within the village, having a relationship or family, or even being deserving of one. This was never his goal, and he only expressed his extreme dislike for those institutions/values. 

 

But the ending saw none of those things. Naruto and Sasuke's issues were unresolved, and all relationships were fraught with problems.

 

I have a confession: I hate Sasuke. I really do. As the fandom portrays Sasuke, he's not so bad. But in the manga? Nope. Can't stand him. His few weak attempts at teamwork in Part 1, his unapologizing betrayal in Part 2, and his murderous intent and insulting pov during the rest of the war arc up to the end could have all been whitewashed and redeemed had Naruto ever once stood up to him, held him accountable or made him apologize for at least his treatment of Team 7. If only that bond was restored — that bond that has been touted for 15 years as being the most important of the manga — but it wasn't. Sasuke gets off better than scott-free: he faces no punishment or censure from anyone, he doesn't have to mend his friendship with Naruto and he gets Sakura!!

 

With the slapdash ending, they took the whole purpose out of the manga. I wouldn't judge the story by the ending because then none of it makes sense. The only thing that does is that the story that was Naruto, the manga, was left unresolved so that the next Naruto project could begin, unimpeded and on time to coincide with Hinata's movie, the novels, and Bolt's story.

 

I had hope up until I saw the panel with Sakura speaking to Sasuke, asking him to stay (or if she could go with him). Up until that moment, I hoped that there would be a way out of this that I just couldn't yet see. Unfortunately, it was just a bait and switch to drum up publicity for their new phase. It doesn't mean the story that came before was trash...just that I should have known that Kishi had stopped caring at some point in the war arc, when the writing and story really became stale and formulaic. At that point, I should have been certain that it was over, instead of still holding out hope.

 

All of this... you nailed it, Tricks! And I began to hate what Sasuke became between Part 1 and Shippuden, and he only got worse, just because he didn't want to face the reality he couldn't ever truly surpass Itachi, and the fact he just wanted to make himself feel better, since in the long run, even if he never admitted it, Sasuke showed he was the most selfish a lot of times.

 

Not to mention I get this feeling Sasuke only married Sakura to beat Naruto, since it's obvious how Naruto talked to Sarada about Sakura that he still loves her, since he doesn't even talk about his own wife like that anymore (considering he only loved her because Toneri wanted her and he got guilted into it, thank you very much, and any NH fans who think otherwise can eat me >_>).

[ThroughWithLove]

 

I have a confession: I hate Sasuke. I really do. As the fandom portrays Sasuke, he's not so bad. But in the manga? Nope. Can't stand him. His few weak attempts at teamwork in Part 1, his unapologizing betrayal in Part 2, and his murderous intent and insulting pov during the rest of the war arc up to the end could have all been whitewashed and redeemed had Naruto ever once stood up to him, held him accountable or made him apologize for at least his treatment of Team 7. If only that bond was restored — that bond that has been touted for 15 years as being the most important of the manga — but it wasn't. Sasuke gets off better than scott-free: he faces no punishment or censure from anyone, he doesn't have to mend his friendship with Naruto and he gets Sakura!!

 

 

Yeah, the "brotherly bond" has always struck me as the weakest part of part 1 and the most unconvincing subplot in the entire manga. Don't get me wrong. Naruto and Sasuke were rivals with mutual respect for one another, but this brothers stuff came out of nowhere, more or less shoehorned into the manga during the first VotE fight. After that, with no additional development, we're supposed to believe that it's the most important thing eva eva! To the point where Naruto is going kyuubi-mode at the mere mention of Sasuke's name, hyperventilating, begging on his hands and knees, literally letting someone pound his face to a pulp and wanting to die with Sasuke.    No need for all that brothers stuff. No need to save Sasuke because of some weird bond that had never been fleshed out before. Naruto's virtue and the POAL are sufficient motivations for saving Sasuke.

 

Same goes for the team 7 bond. Not much of a bond considering they only got one story arc together. All that stuff about them "smiling together again" was never the case. Not that it mattered since Sakura immediately wanted to leave the village with Sasuke during 699, making all that crud about wanting to be together with the team very silly.

Edited by ThroughWithLove, 17 September 2015 - 04:16 PM.