381 replies to this topic

[rocci]

I think sakura already surprass tsunade.

[Atheck]

I think sakura already surprass tsunade.

 

In what way has Sakura surpassed her? Please specify what context you are employing the word "surpass" as the connotations behind it are inherently ambiguous and can refer to a myriad of different things. Should the meaning liken to what my assumptions for how you implemented that word into your responce are correct then I will bluntly retort that Sakura has yet to demonstrate that she has overcome her teacher in ability, mentality, or experience. The only stated reason for her strength having surpassed Tsunade's is that she doesn't have to allocate chakra to a transformation jutsu in order to maintain her youthful appearance. It's not because Sakura's chakra control is superior or that her perseverance was greater. Sakura is clinging to the fact that Tsunade's vanity overrides absolute practicality in a fight in order to legitimise the argument that she is better than her. 

 

Naruto surpassed Jiraiya when he mastered Sage Mode and Sasuke was able to transcend the lingering shadow of Orochimaru's influence when he acquired Mangekyou Sharingan. What does Sakura have to demonstrate that she is superior to Tsunade without senility acting as a handicap for her in a single area of their expertise? 

Edited by Atheck, 10 July 2013 - 11:16 PM.

[Rozette]

Does it look like something is being depicted in the dark spots of the moon this chapter to anyone else?
 

[merryGOflava]

Does it look like something is being depicted in the dark spots of the moon this chapter to anyone else?
 

 

IDK.....but that moon stood out XD  I mean why would kishi just draw the moon that detailed all of a sudden???

[Kster95]

I think sakura already surprass tsunade.

 

Tsunade is  ahead of Sakura with her creation rebirth and Strength of a Hundred techniques plus her experience. Tsuande is at kage level, Sakura is good but not there yet.

 

 

In what way has Sakura surpassed her? Please specify what context you are employing the word "surpass" as the connotations behind it are inherently ambiguous and can refer to a myriad of different things. Should the meaning liken to what my assumptions for how you implemented that word into your responce are correct then I will bluntly retort that Sakura has yet to demonstrate that she has overcome her teacher in ability, mentality, or experience. The only stated reason for her strength having surpassed Tsunade's is that she doesn't have to allocate chakra to a transformation jutsu in order to maintain her youthful appearance. It's not because Sakura's chakra control is superior or that her perseverance was greater. Sakura is clinging to the fact that Tsunade's vanity overrides absolute practicality in a fight in order to legitimise the argument that she is better than her. 

 

Naruto surpassed Jiraiya when he mastered Sage Mode and Sasuke was able to transcend the lingering shadow of Orochimaru's influence when he acquired Mangekyou Sharingan. What does Sakura have to demonstrate that she is superior to Tsunade without senility acting as a handicap for her in a single area of their expertise? 

 

tbh to say Naruto,Sasuke and Sakura who are around 16 years old have already surpassed their 50 years old sanin masters kinda doesn't make sense or it shouldnt have happened, sure the next generation surpasses the other but not this quickly. This is their first war while their sanin masters have so much more experience than them.

Edited by Kster95, 10 July 2013 - 11:44 PM.

[rocci]

@Gamakushii
I see a fox and a man.
@atheck
What tsunade can do, sakura do better. And she is genjutsu type.
Is the problem because kishi never show sakura power/action?

[Atheck]

 

Tsunade is  ahead of Sakura with her creation rebirth technique and experience. Tsuande is at kage level, Sakura is good but not there yet.

 

 

tbh to say Naruto,Sasuke and Sakura who are around 16 years old have already surpassed their 50 years old sanin masters kinda doesn't make sense or it shouldnt have happened, sure the next generation surpasses the other but not this quickly. This is their first war while their sanin masters have so much more experience than them.

 

That's the virtue of this being a shonen manga. The necessity of the protagonists becoming incredibly powerful is able to predominate over common sense. 

 

 

@Gamakushii
I see a fox and a man.
@atheck
What tsunade can do, sakura do better. And she is genjutsu type.
Is the problem because kishi never show sakura power/action?

 

Genjutsu prowess which he brought up a few times and then discarded at the beginning of P2. It has no relevance to Sakura's current abilities beyond acting as indicator of her proficient chakra control. 

 

Really? Has Sakura displayed the capacity to derange the electrical signals of an opponent's body? Can she regenerate her spinal cord or reattach two separate parts of her body after being mutilated? Is the restoration of petrified, soulless arms or psychological trauma a component of her repertoire? Can she even emit her chakra enhanced strength through other areas of her body like Tsunade? I can answer this myself. No, she hasn't displayed any of these abilities. Sakura's list of accomplishments and abilities is severely lacking. Thus far the only area where she has "surpassed" Tsunade is in the area of brute strength, and that's not even a product of her own efforts. Tsunade is just hindering herself because she values her physical beauty too much to gallivant about as a severely aged woman. Someone who is likely well past their prime, I should include. 

 

We should accept the fact that despite our best wishes to see Sakura equally surpass her own predecessor like Naruto and Sasuke, that it has yet to occur. Unless you have the chapter and page numbers depicting Sakura as performing the above feats, then at least concede that some of us will continue to believe that she is the inferior kunoichi overall. 

Edited by Atheck, 10 July 2013 - 11:59 PM.

[TouKen4Life3g]

You know, I don't think anyone is aware that Juubi is in control, which is why it came out shocking the way Kishi portrayed. When you read the next page, the audience will be like, "Oh crap! It's not even him!"

Edited by NaruSaku4Life3g, 11 July 2013 - 12:09 AM.

[rocci]

@atheck
Sakura didn't display any of it because that's not kishi writing style.
Kishi didn't use mini Boss and fodder to display character power, even naruto himself suffe this problem.
In part two before war arc naruto real one on one, only again pain who already nerf when he cast cho shinra tensei.
So sakura need enemy to fight to show what she can do, and she only do that with sasori battle.

@ns4life
Is it bad?

Edited by rocci, 11 July 2013 - 12:27 AM.

[Kster95]

You know, I don't think anyone is aware that Juubi is in control, which is why it came out shocking the way Kishi portrayed. When you read the next page, the audience will be like, "Oh crap! It's not even him!"

 

Which means eventually Obito will turn good and try and stop the Juubi. Another bad guy turning good in the end. 

Edited by Kster95, 11 July 2013 - 12:32 AM.

[Kakashi-Sensei]

You know, I don't think anyone is aware that Juubi is in control, which is why it came out shocking the way Kishi portrayed. When you read the next page, the audience will be like, "Oh crap! It's not even him!"

Maybe something or somebody will wake up Obito and he will get back the control of is body. However , I wonder who... and also if he will turn in the good side.

[rocci]

@kster
It became obvious when kishi make obito as another naruto clone who susceptible to get tnj.
Especially if his sobstory is naruto love life.
That why I believe sakura will play big role in this war. She equivalent to jiraiya book.
Seem like kishi will kill two bird with one nuke.

[Atheck]

@atheck
Sakura didn't display any of it because that's not kishi writing style.

 
In other words, Sakura has nothing with which to substantiate her "superior" status except for an ability that her teacher is handicapped in using. 
 

Kishi didn't use mini Boss and fodder to display character power, even naruto himself suffe this problem.
In part two before war arc naruto real one on one, only again pain who already nerf when he cast cho shinra tensei.
So sakura need enemy to fight to show what she can do, and she only do that with sasori battle.

 
When Kakashi made the statement that Naruto had surpassed him, various fans challenged his admittance with the fact that Naruto had failed to demonstrate any refined fighting abilities or statistical enhancements that would place him above Kakashi like Sage Mode. He was riding on an imperfect technique with a kickback that harms the user considerably as the the basis for his claim. But that was all that had changed at the time for Naruto. His fighting tactics, his mentality, everything was identical except that he now possessed an incredibly dangerous technique which he needed to close the distance to his adversaries in order to use. Intellectually, physically, and multifariously, Kakashi remained Naruto's superior until Sage Mode entered the picture.  
 
The same situation is occurring for Sakura at the moment. We have only the pledge of a single character who has not seen Tsunade since she was a small child to base this notion of the young kunoichi surpassing her predecessor on. With all the physical showings that we have, Tsunade's supremacy remains uncontested. No matter what anyone says, you can't just apply the cryptic suggestions of a deceased man to your argument and hope that it will be sufficient enough to prove that Sakura could defeat Tsunade.

The likelihood of her receiving another chance to prove her worth is also slim as almost every desired shinobi who could hope to stand a chance against Tobi is battling him already. And even if she displayed Slug Sage Byakugou Mode or something else to solidify her superiority, she would never be able to overcome the reality that Tsunade is genetically superior to her. Her chakra reserves and physique will always be naturally greater as she is a direct descendant of the Senju and Uzumaki clans. And as we all know, Kishi appears to have recanted some of the founding principals of his manga like a hard worker being able to surpass those who are naturally gifted. The saying holds validity if you're referring to the weaker individuals who possess innate abilities, but against people like Sasuke, Naruto, Madara, or Hashirama, the pinnacle of the shinobi warrior from their respective clans, you have absolutely no feasible hope of ever matching without genetically modifying your body like Danzo and Kabuto did. Even then, you'll likely never escape their shadow as these people have the virtue of being naturally gifted with these indomitable feats of strength, vitality, and ability with no impurities or unfamiliarity with these skills hindering them.

Not that SSM for Sakura is as likely as it once was. I'm beginning to think that Kishi intentionally made Hashirama reveal a third perfected Sage Mode in order to circumvent the need for a member of the younger generation to attain it. It would coincide with his recent decision to have the older generations become a part of the current war in order to rescue the Alliance instead of having them defeat Madara, Tobi, Kabuto, and the Jubi by themselves.

The fact that Kishi has a propensity for having the female cast members put aside or relegated to supplementary roles is additional reasoning to believe that Sakura will be receiving the short of the stick when it comes to the idea of the younger generations surpassing the older. It doesn't help that she has no KG or conditions inherent to her clan. Like Shikamaru argued, she's a kunoichi with no special abilities (besides a knack for precise chakra control).

[Kster95]

We should have gotten another chapter today its Wednesday ;)  

[Rozette]

 

IDK.....but that moon stood out XD  I mean why would kishi just draw the moon that detailed all of a sudden???

 

Yes, I agree, something is certainly amiss regarding that. It definitely serves a purpose. Great way to illuminate foreshadowing.

 

 

@Gamakushii
I see a fox and a man.

 

 That is exactly what I saw when I looked into it. So interesting.. I also say that the dark crater to the right of the "man" resembles a Tailed Beast Bomb.

[CynMichi]

Why does it feel like Kishi put the scene with Hinata and Sakura there to reaffirm what we, as a fan base, already know? I immediately got a flashback from the Pein battle, where our Sakura could not see what was going on but Hinata could...you all remember, certain other fan bases accused Sakura of being weak and not helping Naruto when Hinata selflessly jumped to his defense.....
Now it has been clearly showcased she couldn't possibly see what was going on, he's making things painfully obvious for a reason.
First Minato compares Sakura to Kushina blatantly, her strength is showcased and a comparison to Tsunade is made, and I'm feeling the Rin parallel next! It's all gonna come full circle and Naruto will surpass his predecessors in every way!
Obito is still in there somewhere it's just a question of how to bring him back, I can't wait!

[rocci]

@atheck
Soon sakura already surprass tsunade and it's not only hashirama but katsuyu herself say that sakura already surprass her.
If we go by manga fact then there are only self regenerate jutsu that sakura need to perform.
Than what about the other? We assume she can/already learn theme. Just like naruto who said he surpass jiraiya but can he perform yomi numa, fire release, or hair manipulation?

And sannin always parallel to team seven or ultimate three man team. Now can we say sakura equal to the other? I say no.
Because naruto and sasuke get compare to hashi mada who already above kage level, but still below rikudo.
Sakura never part of it and it doesn't make her weak. In truth potentially she's the strongest kunoichi who doesn't has KG to achieve kage level.

[Atheck]

@atheck
Soon sakura already surprass tsunade and it's not only hashirama

First off, I already made a retort addressing this claim in my previous post. 

We have only the pledge of a single character who has not seen Tsunade since she was a small child to base this notion of the young kunoichi surpassing her predecessor on. With all the physical showings that we have, Tsunade's supremacy remains uncontested. No matter what anyone says, you can't just apply the cryptic suggestions of a deceased man to your argument and hope that it will be sufficient enough to prove that Sakura could defeat Tsunade.
 
It's highly probable that Hashirama lacks a full understanding of what his granddaughter is fully capable of. We have to bear in mind that he hasn't even laid eyes on her since she was what appeared to be anywhere from 2-5 years of age. He wouldn't exactly be in the best position decision to juxtapose what Tsunade and Sakura can do.

I've already made my arguments detailing how Sakura continues to and will forever remain Tsunade's inferior in at least one statistical area. Oh, and by the way, no one else has made a comment advocating that she  has surpassed Tsunade besides Hashirama. In fact, the last time the possibility was even brought up for discussion was all the way back at the beginning of P2 when Kakashi complimented and alluded to Sakura  maybe one day surpassing her teacher. From the minimalist exhibitions that she has offered to even give her an actual chance at overcoming Tsunade, it's been made apparent that she still has yet to do so despite her teammates having already surpassed their respective Sannin mentors hundreds of chapters ago and the foreshadowing made by others. 
 

but katsuyu herself say that sakura already surprass her.

 
Katsuyu said no such thing. If I'm correct, chapter #634 was literally the first time that we had ever witnessed Sakura and Katsuyu having a conversation with each other and it was only for two panels. Yes, just two panels. I'll show them to you below.


 
Where and how in these two flimsy pictorial boxes were you able to dissect Katsuyu commenting that Sakura had surpassed Tsunade? All she did was verify what we already knew, that Sakura had materalised the Byakugou seal before being interrupted and asked to divide herself so she can heal the fodder.
 

If we go by manga fact then there are only self regenerate jutsu that sakura need to perform.

Technique and situational versatility is just one component to this equation, but even if Sakura unveiled the Byakugou jutsu and began regenerating from attacks, she would still lack the naturally exorbitant chakra reserves, innate physical strength that doesn't require chakra enhancement, Ranshinsho, the ability to emit potent taijutsu attacks through other parts of her body besides her hands, or Tsunade's resilience to pain.

Once Sakura is portrayed as being able to fight with two enormous swords crisscrossed through her midsection without it prohibiting her from fighting, once she is revealed as being able to summon and distribute chakra whilst having the lower part of her body bifurcated, then we can begin to argue that Sakura is close to surpassing Taunade. At least in the area of physical endurance.
 

Than what about the other? We assume she can/already learn theme.

No, we can't. There have been no indications to Tsunade having instructed Sakura on how to use any of her other techniques. Even if they were in fact passed down, she would need to actually use them before any comparisons can be made. In other words, whether she has them or not, Sakura has yet to surmount Tsunade's superior position because she lacks the exploits to substantiate it. There really isn't much value to claiming that you have surpassed someone if your actions fail to back it up.
 

Just like naruto who said he surpass jiraiya but can he perform yomi numa, fire release, or hair manipulation?

Naruto was able to outperform Jiraiya's greater repertoire of techniques thanks to his jinchuuriki status and the implementation of the clones' memorisation aptitude into his fighting style. That was only possible because of his chakra reserves being enhanced by his Uzumaki heritage and his status as jinchuuriki. Both of those being factors which Jiraiya lacked. Although I would contest that Naruto didn't actually surpass Jiraiya until he learned how to properly manipulate Kurama's chakra. Aside from Frog Katas, Rasenshuriken, clones, and the ability to sense on his own, all of which the fused sages could compensate for Jiraiya in some form or another, Naruto was still inferior to him overall; the most glaring flaw with his SM in comparison to Jiraiya's is that it had a strict time and stamina limit to itself that he could only replenish twice before being forced to rely on his basic abilities to fight. 

The situation is different for Sakura though. She's apparently taken it upon herself to learn almost all of Tsunade's medical techniques, enhanced chakra strength, and her ability to summon slugs. Unlike Naruto and Sasuke who possess solitary characteristics that set them apart from their teachers, Sakura has chosen to become a carbon copy of Tsunade with nothing that's defining for herself aside from untapped genjutsu potential and much less horrific injuries caused to her person by her enemies.
 

And sannin always parallel to team seven or ultimate three man team. Now can we say sakura equal to the other? I say no.
Because naruto and sasuke get compare to hashi mada who already above kage level, but still below rikudo.

It's an entirely different argument but I believe that Sasuke has the potentiality to become the equal of Madara when he was alive, excluding the usage of Kurama; provided he has a Susanoo that is of similar proportions and strength with the Sword of Totsuka and Yata's Mirror from the transplantation of Itachi's eyes available to him.
 

Sakura never part of it and it doesn't make her weak.

No, it just makes her inferior to her two naturally gifted and well-refined teammates who embody the warlords of old.
 

In truth potentially she's the strongest kunoichi who doesn't has KG to achieve kage level.

Just one punch from Sakura and we're already declaring her to be on the level of the Akatsuki. Many of us still believe Choji to be her superior both in physical strength and combat abilities in general. Should that intimate to Choji being Kage tier? No, it shouldn't and neither should Sakura's single display of strength. When we have a more comprehensive understanding of what she can do, outside of brute strength, like what her endurance, reflexes, and evasive capabilities are like, then we can begin to argue whether she is indeed Kage tier or not.

Oh, and by the way, Yugito would be more powerful than her with her status as jinchuuriki. Being in possession of a chakra beast that was sealed into you during some moment of your life is technically not a KG. If you attempt to discredit that as not being part of her own strength, then you should consistently assign those stipulations to Naruto and have him be deprived of his bijuu whenever you argue for his power or tier ranking.

Edited by Atheck, 11 July 2013 - 05:02 AM.

[Canadian_DJ]

@Atheck

the reasons sakura surpassed tsunade:

Keep in mind that sakura belongs to no clan with special powers or chakra, she's been storing her chakra for three years and using only half her chakra the whole time, but thats not why she surpassed tsunade.

shizune, adult talented ninja, complimented sakura on the fact that sakura can use the jutsu when he cant, and also complimented on her that she's a talented girl. Sakura mastered an uzumaki technique fuinjutsu, and remember, sakura has been praised for her amazing chakra control abilities, which as kakashi said, is the base to all ninjutsu or any other source of jutsu.

Sakura's byakugo seal, unlike tsunade's, doesnt need it to keep her young, its all focused on her strength, speed, strength and healing abilities and as we've seen, it has the same impact as tsunades released yin seal. Hashirama also commented on sakuras power and all saying, "wow! what a monster! she might even be better than Tsuna!" now, if your gonna say, oh he wa dead, he didnt see the current tsunade and her power, I beg to differ. Kishimoto wouldnt make hashirama, especially since hes an important character, say something thats not relevant, he's a top class ninja, and he wouldnt say something as big as that unless he knew something we dont know about the whole seal thing, so that argument is completely invalid, you cant go and downgrade something like that with nothing to back it up.

Sakura's healing powers in her current form, the byakugo seal, has the same effect as tsunade's released yin seal, the sozo sazai (did i spell that right?) it heals open wounds instantly with the smoke being released just like tsunades sozo sazai. Now look back at the pain arc, tsunade needed the anbus help with the chakra when the sat in a circle, which didnt have the same effect as sakuras, plus sakura was doing the chakra transfer to the slugs all by herself, to which shizune said shes such a talented girl, the fact that her chakra control is better than tsunade maybe? time will tell.

Remember the time the kages were fighting madara and tsunade released her yin seal and it was the byakugo jutsu, now as we know from what sakura's capable of, her byakugo seal is just as strong, or maybe better, (hashiramas comment) as tsunades released yin seal the name also suggests that its just as strong or even stronger, sakuras is the byakugo seal, and tsunas is the byakugo jutsu, and the literal japanese meaning for tsunades is strength of a hundred, and sakuras is....uhh..what was it again..i think it was called white strength.. I'd love to see, and im sure many japanese fans and you guys, sakuras released byaguko seal and what she'll be capable of.

i also want to note something that madara said to tsunade when she released her seal since tsunade was able to heal herself without seals, something only hashirama was able to do, now look back at the sasori fight, when sakura saved chiyo and got stabbed in her side, now sakura was holding on to the sword with her hands, and guess what she did? yeah, she healed that wound with the sword in her side WITHOUT hand seals with only HALF her chakra WITHOUT the byakugo jutsu like tsunade.

Now, Sakura is sannin level just like sasuke and naruto, she's in their league, when she said she finally caught up to them, and if your gonna down grade that part, then thats just how you as a reader and how you interpert the manga in your own way. I think your underestimating the heroine of the story, and her amazing abilites. Sakura has been foreshadowed in surpassing tsunade many times in the manga, chiyo, kakashi and tsunade even said to sakura when she first met her, that sakura is better than shizune and she was only 13. So i dunno why your denying sakura has surpassed tsunade, or denying sakura's roles along side sasuke and naruto.

oh and btw, just because tsunade is half uzumaki half senju and sakura isnt doesnt mean sakura cant surpass her, it makes sakura looks stronger in fact, because she's able to do what tsunades doing and even better, just because tsuade is half uzu half senju doesnt mean her chakra is better than sakura, look at naruto, sakuras better than him and even better than sasuke as accordance to what kakashi said (and he knows his students well so dont down grade that as well) so no, your argument saying that tsunade has the upper hand is invalid.

Edited by Canadian_DJ, 11 July 2013 - 08:44 AM.

[Hiraishin]

Does it look like something is being depicted in the dark spots of the moon this chapter to anyone else?

Yeah, that was my first thought when I saw that panel. Like rocci, I also saw a fox and a man, but I didn't say anything before cause I thought it was just me.

About Sakura...
I gotta agree with Atheck. I love Sakura, but she hasn't surpassed Tsunade yet, or is even close. From what we've seen, Tsunade is superior to Sakura in almost every (if not all) aspect, and we haven't even seen her in her prime. Sakura is certainly capable of surpassing her master (we've seen evasion, the ability to read an opponent's movements and see through their attack pattern in a short amount of time, excellent medical skills, knowledge of poison and the ability to both create and counter it, at least above average stamina and possibly chakra reserves as well, seeing as Chiyo noted Sakura should have been at her limit during the Sasori fight, extremely precise chakra control that grants monster strength, high intelligence, a strong spirit, quick learning, the pursuit of knowledge, and an affinity for genjutsu), but unfortunately, unless there is an epilogue or something of the sort, I don't think we'll see Sakura believably surpass Tsunade in the duration of the manga. Oh well.

@Canadian_DJ
I can't be bothered to type up a wall of text at the moment - I'll leave that to Atheck. However, I will address a few things:

- It was never stated that Sakura was storing up half her chakra, just that she'd been saving up chakra for three years in one spot, and I'm thinking it was just a small fraction. Though I can't prove this, I would say Sakura was going all out during her battle with Sasori. It was a life or death situation, after all.

- Souzo Saisei - or Creation Rebirth - is a regeneration jutsu that uses chakra to stimulate production of various enzymes that accelerate the rate of cell duplication. This is how it reconstructs any damage to body parts and organs of the user. Sakura has not been shown to possess this technique yet, and honestly, I don't want her to. It would shorten her lifespan. Tsunade's okay because she has both Senju and Uzumaki blood, granting her a long lifespan. So, unless Sakura also has a naturally long lifespan... Plus, I want Sakura to have jutsu unique to her. I don't want her to be a Tsunade clone (though there are a few techniques Tsunade knows - such as Ranshinshou - that I'd like to see Sakura learn).

- Tsunade NEVER said that Sakura was better than Shizune. When she witnessed Sakura heal an injured fish, Tsunade stated that she had come far in only three months and that she hadn't seen such talent since Shizune. Come on, a thirteen year old girl with only three months of medical training under her belt being superior to a twenty-eight year old jounin who was taught by Tsunade for many years? Don't you think that's a bit ridiculous?

Even though I'd argue Shizune is at least slightly superior to Sakura in some aspects (she was stated to be surpassed in medical ninjutsu by Tsunade herself IIRC, so maybe she's still a little better than Sakura in this respect - she was placed as the captain of the Medical Division of the Alliance, after all; knowledge of poison and utilisation of position in battle; plus overall experience), I'd say Sakura has mostly surpassed her senpai (mainly because of the activation of the Byakugou seal, which Shizune wasn't able to do).

Edited by mydearbeloved, 11 July 2013 - 10:43 AM.